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** Official Chicago Bears Offseason thread ** (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Rounders
- Start date
DoubleG
Footballguy
The first link to Forte (especially at about 3:10 or so) has me more 
than I was. I thought he was supposed to be big and slow (lumbering), but at times he's flying past LBs and only DBs are even gaining on him (and then only slightly). He seems quicker and a little more elusive than I originlly thought. Thanks for the links.Nice twist - the point is that you feel your opinion is more accurate than the guys that do this for a living. It's all prospective and in the end they or you can be right - but there's no reason to take your chicken little approach at this point when their appears to be reason to believe the opposite.
Rounders
Footballguy
I got into a "discussion" about Grossman vs Orton with my buddies this past weekend.
I firmly beleive that Grossman will be our starter to open the season simply because he has shown that he can play at a high level while Orton has shown that he's nothing special.
Orton manages a game, limits mistakes, but does not give you that extra effort. He will not make that throw that makes you go wow. He would rather throw it away and punt the ball. Safe option
Grossman, when given time, has shown that he can be a quality QB. His ceiling is much much higher than Orton, and his basement is much much lower than Orton.
I just think that when these two lineup in training camp, it's going to be a non-competition. Grossman is better physically and mentally and I expect this "competition" will be over 2 weeks into camp.
Other thoughts?
I firmly beleive that Grossman will be our starter to open the season simply because he has shown that he can play at a high level while Orton has shown that he's nothing special.
Orton manages a game, limits mistakes, but does not give you that extra effort. He will not make that throw that makes you go wow. He would rather throw it away and punt the ball. Safe option
Grossman, when given time, has shown that he can be a quality QB. His ceiling is much much higher than Orton, and his basement is much much lower than Orton.
I just think that when these two lineup in training camp, it's going to be a non-competition. Grossman is better physically and mentally and I expect this "competition" will be over 2 weeks into camp.
Other thoughts?
RBM
Footballguy
My thoughts are that Grossman, for some reason, refuses to learn from his mistakes despite having alot of talent. He will most likely make the same dumb mistakes he always does, turn the ball over alot and at key times, and hit the bench.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Agreed that it is a matter of opinion and I don't think mine is more accurate than their. Sorry if it came across that way. Just speaking from what I think about the situation. I don't believe our season is over because we didn't draft a qb, however, I feel it's a huge weakness of our team and has been for as long as I can remember. I don't understand why we don't go ahead and address it now. Surely, not many think Orton or Grossman is the answer.
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flapgreen
Footballguy
I hope he transitions into the NFL well
Everyone drafted looks fast compared to their college competition, particuarly when you're in Conference USA. That doesnt mean he can't hang in the NFL, but i'd keep an eye on the opponents jerseys when watching game tape. I see a lot of Army highlights but not many LSU.
More importantly, look how high Forte's pads are when he hits the hole. He tends to initiate contact, which i like, but if he loses that leverage battle in the NFL he's going to get stuffed and he's going to get hurt.
More importantly, look how high Forte's pads are when he hits the hole. He tends to initiate contact, which i like, but if he loses that leverage battle in the NFL he's going to get stuffed and he's going to get hurt.
sholditch
Footballguy
I hope to God that they give Orton a real chance this year and actually judge him on game skills instead of practice. Orton is twice the QB Grossman is in a game. Grossman must look like a God in practice and promptly melts whenever he plays against members of another team. Maybe his teammates will put a hit on him the way they did Benson.
sholditch
Footballguy
There are some Mississippi State highlights too. They were one of the better defensive teams in the SEC last year.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Real chance? He started 15 games in 2005 and looked terrible. He has no accuracy and can't throw the deep ball. I don't see how anyone could think he would be a good NFL qb. If you're taking the stance that he won't lose games for you, protecting the ball and not doing squat in the process is the same as losing games, imo. He's awfulI hope to God that they give Orton a real chance this year and actually judge him on game skills instead of practice. Orton is twice the QB Grossman is in a game. Grossman must look like a God in practice and promptly melts whenever he plays against members of another team. Maybe his teammates will put a hit on him the way they did Benson.
sholditch
Footballguy
Oh, you must mean the season he led the Bears to the playoffs as a rookie while playing with a quarter of the playbook. You're right, unbelievable that he didn't excel in that situation.
Let me be clear: neither are anything close to my definition of "good". Orton, thus far, looks like a barely passable game manager. But I would gladly take that over the unmitigated disaster that Grossman turns into whenever he so much as sees a defender within ten feet of him.
Let me be clear: neither are anything close to my definition of "good". Orton, thus far, looks like a barely passable game manager. But I would gladly take that over the unmitigated disaster that Grossman turns into whenever he so much as sees a defender within ten feet of him.
flapgreen
Footballguy
The guy with 59.5 qb rating with 9 td's the entire season. He's looked awful every time I've seen him on the field.I'd rather have Grossman than Orton because of Grossman's ceiling but I still think they're both terrible. I can understand why you'd prefer Orton though. They're not that far apart. I think it's a huge hole we needed to address long before rb, or at least some point in the draft, imo. The O-line also wasn't addressed outside of the 1st round tackle. Williams is not going to come in and change the disaster that was our O-line from last year. Moving Tait to right tackle also isn't going to change the world.
DoubleG
Footballguy
And THAT'S why the Bears took the best pass blocking LT in the draft.sholditch said:
In all seriousness, Rex did a much better job of not throwing the ball up for grabs after his benching last year. He threw 1 INT after returning - and was sacked 16 times in that span. If we can have "Good Rex" when he's being protected and "Safer Rex" when the pass rush does get through, Grossman will end up being an above-average passer. One doesn't have to go to look too far back to see the number of 100+ passer rating games he put up in 2006 (it was 7) to see that he is a capable NFL passer. As a point of comparison, that's the same number of 100+ passer rating games that Big Ben, Garrard, Rivers and Brees had last year - and more than Eli Manning (3) and Derek Anderson (4) had last year.
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whitem0nkey
Footballguy
funny thing is we got the 2nd best QB in the NFC north. and almost the best.
flapgreen
Footballguy
I was a huge Rex supporter when most everyone else was throwing him under the bus. I'm one of the people that kept saying give the guy some time. That was until the midpoint last year. I finally got fed up with his constant mistakes and couldn't take it anymore. At this point, I've lost all faith in him turning things around after so many seasons. Due to the flashes of brilliance he's shown, I really wanted to hold out hope but I just can't do it anymore. As far as Orton goes, I've thought he sucked from the very beginning. I truly hope a miracle happens and Rex becomes the qb he was through the 1st half of 2006.ETA: I was very happy with the 1st round pick but wished they would've picked up at least 1 more O-lineman in the middle rounds.And THAT'S why the Bears took the best pass blocking LT in the draft.sholditch said:In all seriousness, Rex did a much better job of not throwing the ball up for grabs after his benching last year. He threw 1 INT after returning - and was sacked 16 times in that span. If we can have "Good Rex" when he's being protected and "Safer Rex" when the pass rush does get through, Grossman will end up being an above-average passer. One doesn't have to go to look too far back to see the number of 100+ passer rating games he put up in 2006 (it was 7) to see that he is a capable NFL passer. As a point of comparison, that's the same number of 100+ passer rating games that Big Ben, Garrard, Rivers and Brees had last year - and more than Eli Manning (3) and Derek Anderson (4) had last year.
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DoubleG
Footballguy
This I definately agree with. We should have used that TE pick on a guard.
hephner
Footballguy
A few pages back was the discussion that the Bears signed UFA Nick Hill, a QB from Southern IL right after the draft, but it doesn't look like anyone has mentioned the other QB they signed, Caleb Hanie from Colorado St. Apparently Mel Kiper, Jr. has been talking this kid up, mentioning his "big arm, NFL arm, and a high completion percentage at 64%". He mentioned him quite a bit in the late rounds on the telecast at the draft, and was really surprised he was not drafted. In fact, before the draft, Kiper had lumped him in with a small group of QBs, including Joe Flacco, Josh Johnson, and Andre Woodson, who he thinks could one day be NFL starters.
You may have seen Kiper on post-draft wrap-ups today praising the Bears for their 2nd day picks and the free agent steal in Caleb Haine, who he projected as a 5th-6th round pick.
Here's a blurb about the signing:
ESPN analyst Mel Kiper Jr. kept talking up a storm during the NFL draft telecast about former Colorado State quarterback Caleb Hanie and his 64 percent completion performance.
"I couldn't believe it. I thought for sure I'd be drafted," Hanie said.
Instead he drafted the Chicago Bears among several free-agent offers. "It's one of the best deals for any quarterback," Hanie said.
The Bears also signed Southern Illinois' Nick Hill. Hanie was told if all goes according to plan, one will be kept on the 53-man roster as at least the third quarterback behind Rex Grossman and Kyle Orton and the other will be assigned to the practice squad.
Hanie also heard from Indianapolis, Dallas, St. Louis and Buffalo (on the recommendation of CSU coach and ex-Bills coordinator Steve Fairchild).
Now I'm not annointing this guy as the Bears QB savior, and Kiper certainly has been wrong plenty of times before, but it sounds like this kid has the potential to be a legit prospect, and like many have mentioned, any QB the Bears would have drafted were highly unlikely to make any impact in the 08 or 09 seasons anyway. I don't mind them taking their chance on Grossman and Orton this year, probably Grossman, then revisiting this again at the end of the year.
And for all those bashing their draft this year just because they failed to land a QB in the mid-rounds, I think that overall, they had a very good draft and improved a lot of weaknesses, although time will tell. But really it was the last TWO years after the 05 and 06 seasons where the team was good and didn't seem to have a lot of holes going into the draft where they should have taken a QB somewhere. This year, they had far more holes to fill, so spending a pick on a QB would have been much easier the past few years than this year.
You may have seen Kiper on post-draft wrap-ups today praising the Bears for their 2nd day picks and the free agent steal in Caleb Haine, who he projected as a 5th-6th round pick.
Here's a blurb about the signing:
ESPN analyst Mel Kiper Jr. kept talking up a storm during the NFL draft telecast about former Colorado State quarterback Caleb Hanie and his 64 percent completion performance.
"I couldn't believe it. I thought for sure I'd be drafted," Hanie said.
Instead he drafted the Chicago Bears among several free-agent offers. "It's one of the best deals for any quarterback," Hanie said.
The Bears also signed Southern Illinois' Nick Hill. Hanie was told if all goes according to plan, one will be kept on the 53-man roster as at least the third quarterback behind Rex Grossman and Kyle Orton and the other will be assigned to the practice squad.
Hanie also heard from Indianapolis, Dallas, St. Louis and Buffalo (on the recommendation of CSU coach and ex-Bills coordinator Steve Fairchild).
Now I'm not annointing this guy as the Bears QB savior, and Kiper certainly has been wrong plenty of times before, but it sounds like this kid has the potential to be a legit prospect, and like many have mentioned, any QB the Bears would have drafted were highly unlikely to make any impact in the 08 or 09 seasons anyway. I don't mind them taking their chance on Grossman and Orton this year, probably Grossman, then revisiting this again at the end of the year.
And for all those bashing their draft this year just because they failed to land a QB in the mid-rounds, I think that overall, they had a very good draft and improved a lot of weaknesses, although time will tell. But really it was the last TWO years after the 05 and 06 seasons where the team was good and didn't seem to have a lot of holes going into the draft where they should have taken a QB somewhere. This year, they had far more holes to fill, so spending a pick on a QB would have been much easier the past few years than this year.
sholditch
Footballguy
I figured when they kept trading down in the 4th and passing on Booty that they had something up their sleeve. And let's be realistic about needs:
Other than the obvious QB, RB, OL
DT: The lack of depth here following the release of Tank was glaring. We sucked against the run last year and needed to do something. We got a great value pick in Harrison
S: If you think Mike Brown will be on the field for more than 20 minutes in 08 you're fooling yourself. We never should have signed Archuleta, or let Harris go. The Steltz pick was a good pick. Don't worry about him not starting until last year. When LaRon Landry is ahead of you, you have no chance.
WR: You could reasonably argue that this is our weakest position of all. Our WR picks were really, really good picks. Especially the Monk pick.
I'm not saying that I wasn't pissed about passing on a QB, but this Hanie guy sounds like he's no less of a project than anyone else past Brohm. His TD/INT ratio is putrid...
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/teams/stats?teamId=36
But what the hell.
Other than the obvious QB, RB, OL
DT: The lack of depth here following the release of Tank was glaring. We sucked against the run last year and needed to do something. We got a great value pick in Harrison
S: If you think Mike Brown will be on the field for more than 20 minutes in 08 you're fooling yourself. We never should have signed Archuleta, or let Harris go. The Steltz pick was a good pick. Don't worry about him not starting until last year. When LaRon Landry is ahead of you, you have no chance.
WR: You could reasonably argue that this is our weakest position of all. Our WR picks were really, really good picks. Especially the Monk pick.
I'm not saying that I wasn't pissed about passing on a QB, but this Hanie guy sounds like he's no less of a project than anyone else past Brohm. His TD/INT ratio is putrid...
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/teams/stats?teamId=36
But what the hell.
Harrison could well end up being a pudd judging by his scouting report. I've got a real problem with all the defensive picks aside from Steltz- or more accurately, the idea of taking so many in a row after round 3. My point is a good chunk of the defense's woes can be attributed to being on the field more than all but 2 teams in the league. I think you do more for your defense by bringing in some help at Guard than you do by bringing in more bodies on defense. Somebody please explain to me what Plan B is at this point if Garza gets hurt? When the Bears took Forte only 1 guard was off the board in a real deep draft for o-linemen. Mike Pollak out of ASU got snapped up by Indy at the end of the 2nd and would have been a phenominal pick- he could play guard this year and be groomed to take over for Krutz. Instead we got a project RB that is gonna have to suffer behind a (at best) mediocre line. Look at how Indy drafts linemen, they dont take them when they are desperate, they go get them when they are available and have them when they need them.Then the Bears take a posession reciever in the 3rd, when, again, there are starting caliber guards available. Earl Bennett isnt going to turn your team around. Solidifying your o-line could. The guys they chose are LUXURIES, what they neglected are necessities.Your point about all the holes is well taken, but that brings us back to the fact that the Bears did NOTHING in free agency.
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flapgreen
Footballguy
This is all unfortunately true.
Rounders
Footballguy
Thanks for the depressing kick in the nuts! I agree with you 100%. The Bears draft was depressing.
sholditch
Footballguy
I know, the lack of a top-end OG was bad, and there were guys there in the third. We probably should have passed on Bennett to get Zuttah from Rutgers in the third. But the fact is we got who we got. Moaning about it ain't gonna do us any good. We just have to hope that some of the later guys pan out. I can't really speak for the guy we got from Georgia, but Georgia's line was pretty damn good last year. We were able to run the ball really effectively and protected the QB pretty well. We just have to hope that one of the 7th round o-line guys pans out. And honestly, do any of you have any real reason, other than where they were drafted, to think that the kid from Rutgers is going to be any better than Chester Adams? 6'4" 331 and was good enough to start in the SEC, on one of the best programs in the SEC. Personally I like getting guys that have been battle-tested against dudes like Dorsey and Harrison and the like. Who did the kid from Rutgers ever block?
FairWarning
Footballguy
The F/A period isn't over yet. Players will get cut before training camp starts when teams don't want to pay big roster bonuses. Thats how the Bears got Ruben Brown, Fred Miller and Darvin Walker.
Brown and Miller both played well when they were initially signed, though both fell off last year (and a case can be made for Miller falling off the year before). Unfortunately, players that are "savvy vets" one year can quickly become "old, washed up vets" the next. Brown made the Pro Bowl in 2006, and I don't think that anyone can argue that good, solid, o-line play was not a part of the Super Bowl run in 2006.Walker... Well, you can't win 'em all.mbuehner said:
Unless Grossman proves able to control himself, Orton should be our starter - if not from week 1, for the majority of the season.
DoubleG
Footballguy
May I direct you to post 669 above?And follow up with "I'd rather have a QB that will win me some games rather than a QB who will simply try not to lose."Unless Grossman proves able to control himself, Orton should be our starter - if not from week 1, for the majority of the season.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
My point exactly.And THAT'S why the Bears took the best pass blocking LT in the draft.
Southside Stosh
Footballguy
Agreed. I'm curious who our starting left guard will be? I'm guessing maybe Garza, because I couldn't imagine Da Bears starting a rookie LT and LG together. Williams would benefit from a veteran guard next to him. IIRC, Chester Adams grades out to play RG. I'm willing to wait and see what happens at training camp, but as it stands right now, I'm not feeling all warm and fuzzy about our OGs.All I know is if I see opposing D-Lines getting penetration up the middle every other play this season I will be pissed.
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DoubleG
Footballguy
My point exactly.And THAT'S why the Bears took the best pass blocking LT in the draft.
I thought your point was that Orton should start. Although, in fairness, you did start with the caveat "Unless Grossman proves able to control himself" - so I guess we're kind of on the same page - although I think I'm a little bit more confident in Rex. "Control! Control! You must learn control!"
onionsack
Footballguy
He really brings the pain on the strong safety at the 4:30 mark. In general, I'm extremely impressed with how quickly he diagnoses the soft spot in the defense and attacks the seams. Packers fan here, but I think you guys got yourselves a good one.
sholditch
Footballguy
Anyone think the Benson arrest could get him cut? The Bears seem pretty quick to react to police trouble, at least when they're looking for an excuse to get rid of a player. Benson is due under 1 mill this season, but with Jones and Alexander floating around, plus Rhodes, anyone think they might cut ties and opt for a player with a better attitude at least? I think most everyone in the organizations has given up on ever getting a real return on their investment on him. I'd rather have a broke-down SA there to mentor Forte than a grumpy Benson.
ETA: Good Reports on Bears Rooks
fluff piece but good to hear anyway
Skill-position players stand out at rookie minicamp
ETA: Good Reports on Bears Rooks
fluff piece but good to hear anyway
Skill-position players stand out at rookie minicamp
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mlball77
Footballguy
After last season, and given CHI’s QB, RB and WR issues; I was really down on the team for a brief while. However, being the homer that I am, I now feel this team is capable of squeaking into the playoffs. And that is good enough for me right now. Playing in the NFC gives CHI a real shot at a wildcard birth, imo.
If the o-line can stay healthy, and with the addition of Williams (and hopefully emergence of Beekman), I think the running game should be more effective. And if the Bears can run a bit better, I feel the D can do the rest. The key on offense is not asking Grossman or Orton to win games, but instead not to lose them (something Grossman hasn’t yet grasped it seems).
The D may not be as dominant as it was 2-3 years ago, but I think it is positioned to be a ton better than last year. Better play at DT this year is almost a certainty, particularly with a fully healthy Tommie Harris and then Anthony Adams, Dusty Dvoracek and Marcus Harrison fighting for PT at the other spot. And moving Mark Anderson back to a situational pass rushing DE is probably a wise move as well. I think the d-line will have a much better year, and will be particularly effective in the passing game… the issue will be slowing down the ground game between the tackles. The LB situation is strong, so not much to comment on there. The only remaining questions for CHI’s D are at safety, as Vasher and Tillman (as well as Manning) are decent/solid corners. I like to dream that Mike Brown will make it through the majority of a season and greatly improve the defensive backfield, but that isn’t too likely. If the safety play is even mediocre, I look for CHI’s D to return to elite status.
I think it is likely that CHI is in a lot of close (and ugly) games. But I am optimistic that they can come out on top of a good chunk of them, despite an offense that leaves much to be desired.
If the o-line can stay healthy, and with the addition of Williams (and hopefully emergence of Beekman), I think the running game should be more effective. And if the Bears can run a bit better, I feel the D can do the rest. The key on offense is not asking Grossman or Orton to win games, but instead not to lose them (something Grossman hasn’t yet grasped it seems).
The D may not be as dominant as it was 2-3 years ago, but I think it is positioned to be a ton better than last year. Better play at DT this year is almost a certainty, particularly with a fully healthy Tommie Harris and then Anthony Adams, Dusty Dvoracek and Marcus Harrison fighting for PT at the other spot. And moving Mark Anderson back to a situational pass rushing DE is probably a wise move as well. I think the d-line will have a much better year, and will be particularly effective in the passing game… the issue will be slowing down the ground game between the tackles. The LB situation is strong, so not much to comment on there. The only remaining questions for CHI’s D are at safety, as Vasher and Tillman (as well as Manning) are decent/solid corners. I like to dream that Mike Brown will make it through the majority of a season and greatly improve the defensive backfield, but that isn’t too likely. If the safety play is even mediocre, I look for CHI’s D to return to elite status.
I think it is likely that CHI is in a lot of close (and ugly) games. But I am optimistic that they can come out on top of a good chunk of them, despite an offense that leaves much to be desired.
sholditch
Footballguy
So now that Benson is gone, who would you like to see us sign as an FA? Short term, I would love to see either LaMont or Kevin, as I think they both still have the skills to succeed in a feature role, but I think SA woulkd be the better long-term fit, as he would be a great back for Forte to learn from, and likely wouldn't really want to compete with Forte. Has anyone with an ear to the ground heard any rumblings about signing a back?
I don't know why they need to sign anyone. Let's see what Forte can do. If he takes a little while to develop, Peterson has certainly proved he can tote the rock on a short term basis. And that means they can keep Wolfe around one more year to see how he develops.
C'mon - be serious. The Bears must believe they are a playoff team (at minimal). You wouldn't intentionally place your fate in the hands of Peterson-Wolfe-Forte. There's 3 notable guys apparently worth signing - I would be shocked if they didn't sign one.
I am.The Dude said:
They're not. They'll be lucky not to finish 4th in their division.The Dude said:
Sure I would given the fact that the offense is in complete rebuild mode.The Dude said:
Alexander, Jones and Henry? One over-the-hill, one perpetually injured (and who will not even be active to start the season), and an unreliable doper who can't keep it in his pants. Nothing notable there.The Dude said:
Nothing would shock me with this team.The Dude said:
mlball77
Footballguy
Gregg Rosenthal in his latest column at Rotoworld mentioned LaMont Jordan, Kevin Jones and Ron Dayne as possible options later this summer . I'd rather roll the dice on Jordan or Jones, but maybe Dayne will come at a considerably cheaper price??
hephner
Footballguy
Adam Schefter reported that the early word out of Bears camp is that they will not look to sign another RB. They wouldn't have kept 4 backs on the roster anyway and you know Forte and Peterson are going to be there, so it all depends on what they want to do with Wolfe. Keep him for special teams and try to give him a handful of carries and screen passes again, or sign a vet FA and cut Wolfe. Personally, I'd rather have Jordan, if they can land him for a decent price. Peterson does just fine on special teams and as a 3rd down back, which is why I never really understood the Wolfe pick to begin with. But my gut feel is that they won't sign Jordan. I think they'll be looking to develop Forte and won't want a vet back coming in to steal reps from him and compete for the #1. I think if they do sign any FA, it will be a guy like Dayne or another back who will come in as the #2, allowing them to still focus on developing Forte as the #1. But I'm predicting that they won't sign anyone and will end up keeping Wolfe.
Priority number one.
