*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (13 Viewers)

[Battersbox]

IF we could expect the entirety of society to act in a rational manner, then science could be reported openly without being nerfed. 

Unfortunately we have a subset of society who have lost their damn minds, so we're forced to spin things a bit to save them from themselves. 

I agree there is a huge subset of society that will run with any news to cement their priors. 

Still, my belief is that's a lesser evil than not being entirely truthful and forthcoming as much as possible.

 

[[icon]]

I agree there is a huge subset of society that will run with any news to cement their priors. 

Still, my belief is that's a lesser evil than not being entirely truthful and forthcoming as much as possible.

If the science was concrete, yes. Right now it's inconclusive as studies have shown both ways. 

IMO if the science comes to consensus on natural infection being superior then by all means... 

As usual, the same dummies who throw the biggest tantrums about this are the primary exacerbating factors. 

 

[Battersbox]

Can you explain what you mean in the bolded above?  I don't understand what is being disregarded.

I'm saying we've vaxxed 170m people in this country knowing that many of them have been infected prior. I understand the reasoning for doing so...we wanted to get as many people vaxxed as fast as possible. This study suggests that, at least now, maybe it makes more sense to consider prior infection for those seeking a vaccine.

 

[Battersbox]

If the science was concrete, yes. Right now it's in flux as studies have shown both ways. 

IMO if the science comes to consensus on natural infection being superior then by all means... 

As usual, the same dummies who throw the biggest tantrums about this are the primary exacerbating factors. 

Yes, I'm not suggesting it's concrete. As a rational person I go with the consensus. But that doesn't mean I'm not interested in where the science might go. It's a shame that so many will seize on anything new that confirms their priors. But, stifling anything that doesn't conform to groupthink is gross as well.

 

[Battersbox]

The summary is pretty poorly written.

What they omitted, probably to get more attention here from people that don't care to read beyond the title or abstract, that vaccines in this context means NI+Vax, but by leaving that little detail out (of the summary) will drive conclusion, as this study was not Vax vs. NI it was NI+Vax vs NI. This type of framing is tough for people to manage in a tweet.  

Again, the context for a first world country is nil.  This has only implications for those places where vaccinations lagged infections and you are trying to get as many people to a Vax or NI+Vax status ASAP.

We conducted a retrospective observational study comparing three groups: (1)SARS-CoV-2-naive individuals who received a two-dose regimen of the BioNTech/Pfizer mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine, (2)previously infected individuals who have not been vaccinated, and (3)previously infected and single dose vaccinated individuals.

Doesn't the above mean they did in fact include vaxxed only vs NI?

 

[jobarules]

What specifically makes it pretty clear?

Natural immunity typically lasts longer than 6 months. 

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.

 

[jobarules]

Israel is a first-world country.

Yes, anti-vax people could seize on this to further their argument, which would be unfortunate at this point imo. 

It seems as though you feel anything which questions current thinking should be disregarded. I personally like to keep an open mind. That doesn't mean I post to FB or whatever. Grow the eff up.

THANK YOU

The bolded is a HUGE problem on these boards.

 

[jobarules]

I can't really speak to the shaming - my personal take is that everyone should get vaccinated when their doctors and/or the experts say they should.  I've not heard anyone say that those previously infected shouldn't get the vaccine, just that they should wait some period of time.  As for the accuracy of which immunity is superior - I really don't care and not sure why anybody else would either.  As you say, we wouldn't recommend that anyone catch Covid intentionally so to me it's a stupid argument for people to have.  It's interesting information and possibly useful but seeing as we are recommending people on both sides of the argument to get vaxxed, it seems kind of pointless for lay people to be discussing it.  I don't see how it can be used by an anti-vaxxer in any way other than to twist it in to vaccines not working, which we know is false.

Well if there are vaccine mandates for work or going to a restaurant, for someone who just recovered from covid let's say a month ago you are now forcing them to get a shot now instead of waiting until it's actually necessary.

 

[AAABatteries]

I'm saying we've vaxxed 170m people in this country knowing that many of them have been infected prior. I understand the reasoning for doing so...we wanted to get as many people vaxxed as fast as possible. This study suggests that, at least now, maybe it makes more sense to consider prior infection for those seeking a vaccine.

What you state here isn't how I understand it at all - my understanding is we've always told those that had a previous infection to wait X days before getting vaccinated.  Additionally, at this point we have more vaccines than we want (maybe that changes with the booster) so it's not even an issue of when people should get in line - there is no line.

 

[RCon]

Natural immunity typically lasts longer than 6 months. 

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.

Vax protection also lasts longer than six months.  Both vax protection and natural protection wane over time.  It's not binary "on / off" for either.  You're arguing against a point nobody has made.

 

[AAABatteries]

Well if there are vaccine mandates for work or going to a restaurant, for someone who just recovered from covid let's say a month ago you are now forcing them to get a shot now instead of waiting until it's actually necessary.

I would agree that if the advice of experts is to wait X days after infection to get the vaccine then companies need to include that in their policies.  I'd be shocked if large companies don't already have it and it would seem like the vast majority of others would abide by it or give an exception - this seems like something worth debating if/when we see it.  I'm not aware of it happening anywhere yet.

 

[Battersbox]

What you state here isn't how I understand it at all - my understanding is we've always told those that had a previous infection to wait X days before getting vaccinated.  Additionally, at this point we have more vaccines than we want (maybe that changes with the booster) so it's not even an issue of when people should get in line - there is no line.

ok, fair. part of the problem though is with 'x days'...it's far from concrete.

As far as more vax than we know what to do with, I would argue we should probably be exporting vaccines to the third world in greater quantities at this point if natural immunity is more robust than formerly believed.

 

[RCon]

ok, fair. part of the problem though is with 'x days'...it's far from concrete.

As far as more vax than we know what to do with, I would argue we should probably be exporting vaccines to the third world in greater quantities at this point if natural immunity is more robust than formerly believed.

We should absolutely be doing this.  We should be doing it both for humanitarian reasons and for greater long-term protection for ourselves.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Vax protection also lasts longer than six months.  Both vax protection and natural protection wane over time.  It's not binary "on / off" for either.  You're arguing against a point nobody has made.

This whole argument is bizarre.  Let's say for the sake of argument that infection > vaccination for the purposes of achieving immunity.  So what?  I'm not going to rush out and do a line of SARS-CoV-2 right into my immunologically naive body just to get somewhat stronger immunity in the event that I survive.  I'd much rather take the vaccine and then roll the dice out in the wild, knowing that nothing terribly bad is going to happen when I get infected.

(Edit for clarity -- agreeing with you, in other words).

 

[jobarules]

This whole argument is bizarre.  Let's say for the sake of argument that infection > vaccination for the purposes of achieving immunity.  So what?  I'm not going to rush out and do a line of SARS-CoV-2 right into my immunologically naive body just to get somewhat stronger immunity in the event that I survive.  I'd much rather take the vaccine and then roll the dice out in the wild, knowing that nothing terribly bad is going to happen when I get infected.

(Edit for clarity -- agreeing with you, in other words).

OK now imagine you are one of the 38.4 MILLION people who have already had an infection.

 

[AAABatteries]

ok, fair. part of the problem though is with 'x days'...it's far from concrete.

As far as more vax than we know what to do with, I would argue we should probably be exporting vaccines to the third world in greater quantities at this point if natural immunity is more robust than formerly believed.

Agree, that it's far from concrete but we've been figuring things out as we go this whole time.  And to me that doesn't equate to being "disregarded" at all.

On your second point, totally agree we should get the vaccine to other countries, not because of natural immunity but rather because we have too much and they need it.

 

[Jobber]

A very close friend just danced with the devil

Hardcore antivaxxer. 36 and in great shape. No comorbidities at all. 

Started with bad flu symptoms and wicked fever and gradually progressed. Brought him LiquidIV packs to help with dehydration, pulse OX to watch O2 sats, then canned O2 to help through bad spots. 
 

Eventually caved and went in to ER. Was there over a week on oxygen. Walking to the toilet 10 feet away required 10 min to catch his breath. 

He just got home, and has booked his vax jab in 3 months (how long his doc told him to wait). 

Meanwhile, has likely thousands of dollars in medical expenses, potential lost wages, possible long COVID/quality of life issues, etc.

Anti vaxxers are going to end up getting the jab at some point, may as well do it before some or all of the above. On top of that, if you value future employment, international travel, and avoiding higher health insurance premiums, among other things.

 

[AAABatteries]

OK now imagine you are one of the 38.4 MILLION people who have already had an infection.

I'm struggling to under the argument here.  What about those folks?  They should get vaccinated when the experts tell them to.

 

[jobarules]

I'm struggling to under the argument here.  What about those folks?  They should get vaccinated when the experts tell them to.

The experts have been wrong numerous times before. You can call it wrong or evolving science or figuring it out as they go along. At first we were told by Fauci we wouldn't need booster shots. Then we were told we would need booster shots after 8 months. Now all of a sudden we need booster shots in 6 months. First we were told vaccine immunity was better than natural immunity. Now all of a sudden there are more and more studies showing natural immunity might be better.

Bottom line, the experts don't know yet.

These people who have been infected are doing the calculation in their heads "why do I need the vaccine if I JUST HAD covid?" Perhaps the smart thing to so is if you had previous infection to get antibody tested before deciding. At some point their immunity is going to wane (again we dont know when) and hopefully they get the vaccine before that happens.

 

[Doug B]

OK now imagine you are one of the 38.4 MILLION people who have already had an infection.

When infected and with what strain? This isn't a yes/no logic gate -- there are multiple chaotic variables, many of which individuals evaluating risks cannot know.

 

[RCon]

The experts have been wrong numerous times before. You can call it wrong or evolving science or figuring it out as they go along. At first we were told by Fauci we wouldn't need booster shots. Then we were told we would need booster shots after 8 months. Now all of a sudden we need booster shots in 6 months. First we were told vaccine immunity was better than natural immunity. Now all of a sudden there are more and more studies showing natural immunity might be better.

Bottom line, the experts don't know yet.

These people who have been infected are doing the calculation in their heads "why do I need the vaccine if I JUST HAD covid?" At some point their immunity is going to wane (again we dont know when) and hopefully they get the vaccine before that happens.

Do you have a link for this?  Legit question; I don't remember this happening.

 

[top dog]

We are not at a point where we need to ration vaccines in this country. Maybe in the beginning it mattered and we should have taken into consideration who had been infected already to get the shots into the folks who hadn't quicker.. But it really is a silly argument now. Plenty to go around.

My son (21) who had covid in December last year waited until you could literally walk into anywhere and get a vaccine before he got vaccinated. Because he said "I don't want to take a shot away from anyone who needs one and is having trouble getting one." He got vaccinated at the end of May.

 

[jobarules]

Do you have a link for this?  Legit question; I don't remember this happening.

I'll dig for it. In the meantime, CDC is saying we might not need annual boosters after the 3rd shot

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/19/cdc-director-says-we-might-not-need-annual-covid-boosters-after-third-shot.html

 

[jobarules]

@Rich Conway

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/11/politics/fauci-booster-shots-sotu-cnntv/index.html

I understand the science changes. He said that a long time ago. A month ago 

 

[RCon]

@Rich Conway

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/11/politics/fauci-booster-shots-sotu-cnntv/index.html

I understand the science changes. He said that a long time ago. A month ago 

Oh, I thought you were implying that Fauci said we would never need boosters.  I don't see anything in the link you posted that seems unreasonable.

 

[Jackstraw]

Oh, I thought you were implying that Fauci said we would never need boosters.  I don't see anything in the link you posted that seems unreasonable.

I dig it. If you are going to pretend to be the lone Spock in a room full of Kirks, at least don't distort the facts. It's not logical. 

 

[jobarules]

Oh, I thought you were implying that Fauci said we would never need boosters.  I don't see anything in the link you posted that seems unreasonable.

Agreed 100%. Thats my point though. People keep saying "the experts say..." but the experts keep changing what they are saying so its only logical to question things.

 

[AAABatteries]

@Rich Conway

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/11/politics/fauci-booster-shots-sotu-cnntv/index.html

I understand the science changes. He said that a long time ago. A month ago 

The science may change but not in large magnitudes (or at least that I've seen) - we've been talking about the need for boosters since last summer.  And I don't really get why so many people that apparently don't respect Fauci constantly pick apart instances where maybe he's change his mind or was uncertain or gasp *wrong*.  The guy isn't freaking Jesus and him being wrong brings the whole house of cards falling down.

 

[moleculo]

Such a dumb policy 

0.9% positivity rate is fantastic.

no.  the people in quarantine protocol have not yet been tested.  I heard on the radio on my drive home that the positivity rate in SC for kids between 12-18 is 20%.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

The experts have been wrong numerous times before. You can call it wrong or evolving science or figuring it out as they go along. At first we were told by Fauci we wouldn't need booster shots. Then we were told we would need booster shots after 8 months. Now all of a sudden we need booster shots in 6 months. First we were told vaccine immunity was better than natural immunity. Now all of a sudden there are more and more studies showing natural immunity might be better.

Bottom line, the experts don't know yet.

These people who have been infected are doing the calculation in their heads "why do I need the vaccine if I JUST HAD covid?" Perhaps the smart thing to so is if you had previous infection to get antibody tested before deciding. At some point their immunity is going to wane (again we dont know when) and hopefully they get the vaccine before that happens.

More and more? I think the one that started this discussion (the one that Batter posted) is the only one stating this thus far, at least in recent months. And it's not peer-reviewed yet. I mean, hopefully it stands up bc that would probably be a great finding, but as of yet, I wouldn't be hitching my horse to that wagon. IDK, There may have been some earlier ones based on lab findings or extremely small sample sizes, but the majority of evidence pointed the other way prior to this one study.  

 

[jobarules]

More and more? I think the one that started this discussion (the one that Batter posted) is the only one stating this thus far, at least in recent months. And it's not peer-reviewed yet. I mean, hopefully it stands up bc that would probably be a great finding, but as of yet, I wouldn't be hitching my horse to that wagon. IDK, There may have been some earlier ones based on lab findings or extremely small sample sizes, but the majority of evidence pointed the other way prior to this one study.  

Ive seen a few in the last week.

 

[jobarules]

no.  the people in quarantine protocol have not yet been tested.  I heard on the radio on my drive home that the positivity rate in SC for kids between 12-18 is 20%.

If thats true then yes, thats not good

 

[GroveDiesel]

Just a heads up to anyone using an N95 or KN95 from Shanghai Dasheng: They are no longer CDC or NIOSH certified due to quality control concerns.

I can straight up say that I noticed significant issues getting passing fit test results with their respirators and questioned the quality. So this decision definitely jives with my real world observation.

 

[JShare87]

Little brother has had Covid for about 5 days. Just texted to see how he was doing. He’s in the hospital with fluid in his lungs, extremely high heart rate, and 102 fever. My mom was trying to get him to get the vaccine for a while now. He’s only 32.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Little brother has had Covid for about 5 days. Just texted to see how he was doing. He’s in the hospital with fluid in his lungs, extremely high heart rate, and 102 fever. My mom was trying to get him to get the vaccine for a while now. He’s only 32.

Ugh. Hope he pulls through ok, GB. 

 

[Sand]

I'm saying we've vaxxed 170m people in this country knowing that many of them have been infected prior. I understand the reasoning for doing so...we wanted to get as many people vaxxed as fast as possible. This study suggests that, at least now, maybe it makes more sense to consider prior infection for those seeking a vaccine.

We have enough vaccine for all, so the question is does a previous infection + shot cause any deleterious effects or reduce the immunity?  If no to both of those then it's, at the very least a "do no harm" situation.

 

[IC FBGCav]

We have enough vaccine for all, so the question is does a previous infection + shot cause any deleterious effects or reduce the immunity?  If no to both of those then it's, at the very least a "do no harm" situation.

This is it.  Personally I haven't felt right the last month after having covid in January.  BTW I tested negative on Tuesday so not that.  

 

[IC FBGCav]

I'm saying we've vaxxed 170m people in this country knowing that many of them have been infected prior. I understand the reasoning for doing so...we wanted to get as many people vaxxed as fast as possible. This study suggests that, at least now, maybe it makes more sense to consider prior infection for those seeking a vaccine.

There are major problems with this study that are stated at the beginning of the study that is not being reported by the media.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Little brother has had Covid for about 5 days. Just texted to see how he was doing. He’s in the hospital with fluid in his lungs, extremely high heart rate, and 102 fever. My mom was trying to get him to get the vaccine for a while now. He’s only 32.

Sending good thoughts your brother’s way, GB

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Just a heads up to anyone using an N95 or KN95 from Shanghai Dasheng: They are no longer CDC or NIOSH certified due to quality control concerns.

I can straight up say that I noticed significant issues getting passing fit test results with their respirators and questioned the quality. So this decision definitely jives with my real world observation.

Unless you can vouch for the manufacturer with 100% certainty, I don’t know why anyone would get a KN95 over a KF94. The Korean masks offer the same level of protection and take the quality issue off the table

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Wow, this thread is bonkerballs:

A lot of people have asked me this week: Where did this ivermectin obsession come from? Who could possibly benefit from it? Most importantly, why did my antivaxx aunt start eating horse goo from the tractor store? It’s complicated, but here are some answers.

Read the whole thing and seriously, people, lay off the horse gel.

 

[Sand]

Wow, this thread is bonkerballs:

Read the whole thing and seriously, people, lay off the horse gel.

Important question here.  

 

[Pip's Invitation]

Agreed 100%. Thats my point though. People keep saying "the experts say..." but the experts keep changing what they are saying so its only logical to question things.

Not because they want to, but because they learn more that changes what was previously known. That's how science works -- we're just seeing it work at an exceptionally fast pace because of the novelty and magnitude of the problem. So what is your point, exactly? 

 

[IC FBGCav]

Not because they want to, but because they learn more that changes what was previously known. That's how science works -- we're just seeing it work at an exceptionally fast pace because of the novelty and magnitude of the problem. So what is your point, exactly? 

Medicine and the people that administer it take an oath to do no harm and use the least amount to provide care.  Do you believe this is what has been done?

 

[Pip's Invitation]

Medicine and the people that administer it take an oath to do no harm and use the least amount to provide care.  Do you believe this is what has been done?

Yes, for the most part. I'm guessing you don't? 

 

[IC FBGCav]

Yes, for the most part. I'm guessing you don't? 

Only one aspect.  But that is me significant.  

I truly believe you shouldn't sell to people who had covid already. Go to the unvaccinated in the USA.  And ship off the rest to countries that want it and need it.  This helps exponentially except for profits.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

Only one aspect.  But that is me significant.  

I truly believe you shouldn't sell to people who had covid already. Go to the unvaccinated in the USA.  And ship off the rest to countries that want it and need it.  This helps exponentially except for profits.

Fair enough. I would certainly like to see us do more of the bolded. But I don't think there should be a moratorium on vaccines for people who already had COVID until we have some sort of definitive word on natural immunity vs. vax immunity -- as you can see from the debate on the last few pages, we don't have that yet. The vaccines are doing exactly what they were supposed to do -- keeping people alive and out of the hospital -- and for that reason, I don't think we should be denying them to anyone who is eligible for them and wants them. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

Fair enough. I would certainly like to see us do more of the bolded. But I don't think there should be a moratorium on vaccines for people who already had COVID until we have some sort of definitive word on natural immunity vs. vax immunity -- as you can see from the debate on the last few pages, we don't have that yet. The vaccines are doing exactly what they were supposed to do -- keeping people alive and out of the hospital -- and for that reason, I don't think we should be denying them to anyone who is eligible for them and wants them. 

I agree with you.  If you had covid and want it, get it!  Having had covid 8 months ago, I still don't feel right but much of that has been in the last month.  So it is really hard.  Am I going to be MORE protected over getting more potential sides effects.  I don't know but the data from US doesn't leave me on a path that I can act on.  Its my own personal problem that I reevaluate everyday.  

If you are not vaccinated and didn’t have covid in my opinion and not a doctor, consider getting all jabs, I would.

 

[Zegras11]

This is it.  Personally I haven't felt right the last month after having covid in January.  BTW I tested negative on Tuesday so not that.  

glad to see you're getting back to normal. 

 

[jobarules]

Not because they want to, but because they learn more that changes what was previously known. That's how science works -- we're just seeing it work at an exceptionally fast pace because of the novelty and magnitude of the problem. So what is your point, exactly? 

It's logical to question things. I literally said it in the post you quoted.