*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (11 Viewers)

[Scoresman]

Covid can cause heart problems. Here's how the virus may do its damage (NBC News, 2/20/2023)
Scientists who studied human hearts found that infection appeared to make it harder for them to beat properly

Researchers from Columbia University in New York City examined autopsied heart tissue from people who had Covid, and found that the infection damaged the way cells in the heart regulate levels of calcium, a mineral that plays an important role in how the organ contracts and pumps blood throughout the body. In another part of the study, the same damage was seen in mice with Covid ...

When a person is infected with Covid, the immune system launches a hefty inflammatory response in an effort to fight off the virus. That inflammation, the new study found, disrupts how calcium is stored in the heart.

Calcium ions — a version of the element that carry a positive charge — are important messengers that regulate heart function, including how quickly and how forcefully the organ contracts. These ions are stored inside cells, on deck for when the body needs to use them. They’re released through channels in the cellular membrane, which ensures that just the right amount of calcium can get out.

The damage caused by inflammation during a Covid infection appears to prop these channels open, letting too much calcium leak from the cells of the heart, said Dr. Andrew Marks, a cardiologist and biophysics professor at Columbia University who co-led the study. This flood of calcium, he said, can decrease heart function and even cause fatal arrhythmias, or irregular heartbeats.

Although inflammation of the heart is a rare but documented side effect of the mRNA Covid vaccines, the study looked only at heart tissue from autopsies before vaccines were available.

“Whatever changes we saw were because of infection,” Marks said, adding that the new study was small, and the next step was to conduct the research on a larger scale.

Not yet peer-reviewed, but replicative studies are ongoing.

The question is can they treat/prevent this if they now possibly know what it is?

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Covid can cause heart problems. Here's how the virus may do its damage (NBC News, 2/20/2023)
Scientists who studied human hearts found that infection appeared to make it harder for them to beat properly

Researchers from Columbia University in New York City examined autopsied heart tissue from people who had Covid, and found that the infection damaged the way cells in the heart regulate levels of calcium, a mineral that plays an important role in how the organ contracts and pumps blood throughout the body. In another part of the study, the same damage was seen in mice with Covid ...

When a person is infected with Covid, the immune system launches a hefty inflammatory response in an effort to fight off the virus. That inflammation, the new study found, disrupts how calcium is stored in the heart.

Calcium ions — a version of the element that carry a positive charge — are important messengers that regulate heart function, including how quickly and how forcefully the organ contracts. These ions are stored inside cells, on deck for when the body needs to use them. They’re released through channels in the cellular membrane, which ensures that just the right amount of calcium can get out.

The damage caused by inflammation during a Covid infection appears to prop these channels open, letting too much calcium leak from the cells of the heart, said Dr. Andrew Marks, a cardiologist and biophysics professor at Columbia University who co-led the study. This flood of calcium, he said, can decrease heart function and even cause fatal arrhythmias, or irregular heartbeats.

Although inflammation of the heart is a rare but documented side effect of the mRNA Covid vaccines, the study looked only at heart tissue from autopsies before vaccines were available.

“Whatever changes we saw were because of infection,” Marks said, adding that the new study was small, and the next step was to conduct the research on a larger scale.

Not yet peer-reviewed, but replicative studies are ongoing.

The question is can they treat/prevent this if they now possibly know what it is?

Good question. Like is there a scan anyone who had covid should get and then a treatment to prevent issues?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Eric Topol@EricTopol

Covid vaccination is associated with significantly reduced incidence of heart attacks and strokes during follow-up. Results of a nationwide @ncats_nih_gov study

https://jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.12.006

Just eyeballing the chart, looks like full vax cuts Major Adverse Coronary Events (MACE) due to COVID infection from about 70/10,000 to 40/10,000.

 

[Mitchie]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

 

[[icon]]

Eric Topol@EricTopol

Covid vaccination is associated with significantly reduced incidence of heart attacks and strokes during follow-up. Results of a nationwide @ncats_nih_gov study

https://jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.12.006

Just eyeballing the chart, looks like full vax cuts Major Adverse Coronary Events (MACE) due to COVID infection from about 70/1000 to 40/1000.

Thank you for sharing this Excellent study that shows pretty conclusive reduction in MACE for vaccinated individuals.

Seems to support the prevailing theory that an disproportionately high share of the "Sudden Death / Heart Damage" that the tinfoil hatters are trying to blame on the vaccine is actually nearly twice as likely due to unvaccinated individuals who caught COVID.

The usual suspects will gloss over this (invariably citing some poorly constructed study by some hack in a 3rd world country), but hopefully the smart folks with open minds take a moment to read the paper excerpts and the tweet thread. thanks for sharing.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

The article doesn't indicate the incidence of a cardio-v event within X days for a healthy, non-COVID infected person -- so the baseline is a little unclear.

But the takeaway was that COVID increases the incidence of heart events in both the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Depending on the baseline rate in an uninfected population, by at least 40%, mostly like by 50% or more.

 

[[icon]]

Not sure if it's been shared....

Yet ANOTHER randomized, placebo-controlled study of Ivermectin shows no benefit vs COVID. (sigh... it's like a broken record).

From the paper:

Results Among 1206 randomized participants who received study medication or placebo, the median (IQR) age was 48 (38-58) years, 713 (59.1%) were women, and 1008 (83.5%) reported receiving at least 2 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine doses. The median (IQR) time to sustained recovery was 11 (11-12) days in the ivermectin group and 11 (11-12) days in the placebo group. The hazard ratio (posterior probability of benefit) for improvement in time to recovery was 1.02 (95% credible interval, 0.92-1.13; P = .68).

Among those receiving ivermectin, 34 (5.7%) were hospitalized, died, or had urgent or emergency care visits compared with 36 (6.0%) receiving placebo (hazard ratio, 1.0 [95% credible interval, 0.6-1.5]; P = .53). In the ivermectin group, 1 participant died and 4 were hospitalized (0.8%); 2 participants (0.3%) were hospitalized in the placebo group and there were no deaths. Adverse events were uncommon in both groups.

Conclusions and Relevance Among outpatients with mild to moderate COVID-19, treatment with ivermectin, with a maximum targeted dose of 600 μg/kg daily for 6 days, compared with placebo did not improve time to sustained recovery. These findings do not support the use of ivermectin in patients with mild to moderate COVID-19.

 

[[icon]]

Eric Topol@EricTopol

Covid vaccination is associated with significantly reduced incidence of heart attacks and strokes during follow-up. Results of a nationwide @ncats_nih_gov study

https://jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.12.006

Just eyeballing the chart, looks like full vax cuts Major Adverse Coronary Events (MACE) due to COVID infection from about 70/1000 to 40/1000.

Thank you for sharing this study .... seems to show fairly significant reduction in MACE rate for vaccinated individuals.

Seems to support the prevailing theory that an disproportionately high share of the "Sudden Death / Heart Damage" that the tinfoil hatters are trying to blame on the vaccine is actually nearly twice as likely due to unvaccinated individuals who caught COVID.

The usual suspects will gloss over this (invariably citing some poorly constructed study by some hack in a 3rd world country), but hopefully the smart folks with open minds take a moment to read the paper excerpts and the tweet thread. thanks for sharing.

 

[LawFitz]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

 

[Mitchie]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

I was asking more rhetorically.

 

[LawFitz]

some poorly constructed study by some hack in a 3rd world country

Ironic that the site link to the study you are so jubilant about with this post won't get through my phone's anti-virus screen.

 

[LawFitz]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

I was asking more rhetorically.

And I took the opportunity to answer literally, because it needs to be said. We should be able to ask about vax status every death or disability from here on out given the controversy, scale and gravity of this issue, without being called ghouls. This especially after those same people were probably clamoring for people to lose their jobs last year over this same question.

 

[Mitchie]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

I was asking more rhetorically.

And I took the opportunity to answer literally, because it needs to be said. We should be able to ask about vax status every death or disability from here on out given the controversy, scale and gravity of this issue, without being called ghouls. This especially after those same people were probably clamoring for people to lose their jobs last year over this same question.

the additional response was not necessary.

 

[jobarules]

What year is this?

People still wearing masks... 2020?

 

[LawFitz]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

I was asking more rhetorically.

And I took the opportunity to answer literally, because it needs to be said. We should be able to ask about vax status every death or disability from here on out given the controversy, scale and gravity of this issue, without being called ghouls. This especially after those same people were probably clamoring for people to lose their jobs last year over this same question.

the additional response was not necessary.

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[Mitchie]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

I was asking more rhetorically.

And I took the opportunity to answer literally, because it needs to be said. We should be able to ask about vax status every death or disability from here on out given the controversy, scale and gravity of this issue, without being called ghouls. This especially after those same people were probably clamoring for people to lose their jobs last year over this same question.

the additional response was not necessary.

Ufc 239 Sport GIF by UFC - Find & Share on GIPHY

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you were replying to me right? I'm the recipient of the exchange and telling you it wasn't necessary.

 

[LawFitz]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

I was asking more rhetorically.

And I took the opportunity to answer literally, because it needs to be said. We should be able to ask about vax status every death or disability from here on out given the controversy, scale and gravity of this issue, without being called ghouls. This especially after those same people were probably clamoring for people to lose their jobs last year over this same question.

the additional response was not necessary.

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you were replying to me right? I'm the recipient of the exchange and telling you it wasn't necessary.

This is a forum, not an IM chat. Your less than sincere rhetoric prompted a more than sincere dialog. Even if inconvenient for you, it was #SuperNecessary.

 

[gianmarco]

This thread has turned unreadable at this point (and has been for some time). What was a great resource in the past has become an exercise in futility.

 

[LawFitz]

https://twitter.com/DowdEdward/status/1627017234760732673?s=20https://twitter.com/DowdEdward/status/1627017234760732673?s=20

Edward Dowd dropped a major truth bomb a couple days ago. BLS data showing dramatic and likely correlated spike in society-wide disabilities in the immediate wake of the vaxxes and their miserable cousin mandates.

 

[LawFitz]

This thread has turned unreadable at this point (and has been for some time). What was a great resource in the past has become an exercise in futility.

It's only unreadable to you because it now also contains the side you refuse to hear. Inconvenient. #SuperNecessary

 

[Schmeabs]

This thread has turned unreadable at this point (and has been for some time). What was a great resource in the past has become an exercise in futility.

I suggest you ignore ICON and his condescending remarks.

 

[the moops]

What year is this?

People still wearing masks... 2020?

Why do you care so much if someone chooses to wear a mask. Seems like a lot of energy is spent feeling angry or perplexed or whatever else. Just keep on doing what you do and let others do the same.

 

[Mitchie]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

I was asking more rhetorically.

And I took the opportunity to answer literally, because it needs to be said. We should be able to ask about vax status every death or disability from here on out given the controversy, scale and gravity of this issue, without being called ghouls. This especially after those same people were probably clamoring for people to lose their jobs last year over this same question.

the additional response was not necessary.

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you were replying to me right? I'm the recipient of the exchange and telling you it wasn't necessary.

This is a forum, not an IM chat. Your less than sincere rhetoric prompted a more than sincere dialog. Even if inconvenient for you, it was #SuperNecessary.

So back to the original question, did you have to ask?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Eric Topol@EricTopol

Covid vaccination is associated with significantly reduced incidence of heart attacks and strokes during follow-up. Results of a nationwide @ncats_nih_gov study

https://jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.12.006

Just eyeballing the chart, looks like full vax cuts Major Adverse Coronary Events (MACE) due to COVID infection from about 70/10,000 to 40/10,000.

Came to post this one as well. I couldn't pull up the PDF, but someone replied with the text of it in a tweet reply:

https://twitter.com/CatchTheBaby/status/1627768361001295872?s=20

This is a LARGE study. Almost 2 MILLION patients.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

And another good Twitter thread with some insight on that same paper:

https://twitter.com/celinegounder/status/1627725558875316224?s=20

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Not sure if it's been shared....

Yet ANOTHER randomized, placebo-controlled study of Ivermectin shows no benefit vs COVID. (sigh... it's like a broken record).

From the paper:

Results Among 1206 randomized participants who received study medication or placebo, the median (IQR) age was 48 (38-58) years, 713 (59.1%) were women, and 1008 (83.5%) reported receiving at least 2 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine doses. The median (IQR) time to sustained recovery was 11 (11-12) days in the ivermectin group and 11 (11-12) days in the placebo group. The hazard ratio (posterior probability of benefit) for improvement in time to recovery was 1.02 (95% credible interval, 0.92-1.13; P = .68).

Among those receiving ivermectin, 34 (5.7%) were hospitalized, died, or had urgent or emergency care visits compared with 36 (6.0%) receiving placebo (hazard ratio, 1.0 [95% credible interval, 0.6-1.5]; P = .53). In the ivermectin group, 1 participant died and 4 were hospitalized (0.8%); 2 participants (0.3%) were hospitalized in the placebo group and there were no deaths. Adverse events were uncommon in both groups.

Conclusions and Relevance Among outpatients with mild to moderate COVID-19, treatment with ivermectin, with a maximum targeted dose of 600 μg/kg daily for 6 days, compared with placebo did not improve time to sustained recovery. These findings do not support the use of ivermectin in patients with mild to moderate COVID-19.

to add to that:

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1627713157706944513/photo/1

There are still 10 ongoing trials and discussion has begun if they are even ethical at this point.

 

[Terminalxylem]

My business is through the roof. I can't keep up. Not a flex.

I do peripheral and coronary cases. I see vaccinated, unvaccinated. Boosted, boosted once, not boosted. Younger than ever.

Either the vaccination does not help in this regard, or causes the same in this regard, or doesn't prevent these symptoms when the vaccinated get covid.

Whatever your take is, I don't see the moral high horse here.

What type of business, specifically?

I work in a hospital, and haven’t noticed an uptick in vascular pathology among younger people, independent of traditional risk factors. Definitely not anything temporally related to vaccination. I have seen a smattering of vascular/cardiac events in actively/recently infected people though.

My good friend, a cardiologist, has been busy (like virtually all healthcare workers), but he hasn’t noticed what you describe, either.

Good for him, we have been increasingly slammed. From PAD to DVT to PE to PCI. All up... PE and DVT massively up.

Can you give us an idea what constitutes a “massive” increase? 10%? 50%? 100+%?

And I’m still unclear what business you’re in - are you an interventional radiologist, nurse or radiology tech?

 

[jobarules]

What year is this?

People still wearing masks... 2020?

Why do you care so much if someone chooses to wear a mask. Seems like a lot of energy is spent feeling angry or perplexed or whatever else. Just keep on doing what you do and let others do the same.

The guy made a "what year is this" joke when I think the same thing everytime he posts. I found it ironic.

 

[Scoresman]

This article pretty much sums up my view on mask wearing. I don’t see why this should elicit any kind of negative response from anybody.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155...-still-mask-in-forever-three-experts-weigh-in

 

[Terminalxylem]

And yes, there is a difference between "possible COVID treatment" and "approved COVID treatment". I have YET to see a study where ivermectin was given as the sole treatment. It was ALWAYS given as part of a cocktail of drugs VERY early on. So was remdesivir. NEITHER have EVER qualified as "approved COVID treatment" on their own...both were part of a cocktail treatment that had mixed results at best.

FTR, Remdesivir has been studied on its own.

 

[Schmeabs]

This article pretty much sums up my view on mask wearing. I don’t see why this should elicit any kind of negative response from anybody.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155...-still-mask-in-forever-three-experts-weigh-in

The guy quoted in the article says he plans on wearing a mask forever. Is that your plan?

 

[humpback]

This thread has turned unreadable at this point (and has been for some time). What was a great resource in the past has become an exercise in futility.

The most completely predictable downside to closing the political forum.

 

[Scoresman]

This article pretty much sums up my view on mask wearing. I don’t see why this should elicit any kind of negative response from anybody.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155...-still-mask-in-forever-three-experts-weigh-in

The guy quoted in the article says he plans on wearing a mask forever. Is that your plan?

Probably yes, but keep in mind I don't currently wear masks everywhere. I think when people are surprised about continued mask usage they assume people wear them everywhere. I'll probably settle into the following routine.

- Airports and airplanes forever. The worst thing is getting sick while traveling. This one's a no-brainer.
- Public transportation probably forever.
- Grocery stores and similar crowded places during flu/cold season or if COVID ever gets anymore peaks.
- I generally won't be wearing one anywhere outside unless it's an extremely crowded situation.

What the pandemic made me realize was that wearing a mask is such a no brainer in comparison to getting colds/flus at the rate I used to. It's not even just about COVID anymore. It sucks to get sick, period, and wearing a mask in the situations above is such a minor inconvenience in comparison. The tradeoff is so worth it.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

This article pretty much sums up my view on mask wearing. I don’t see why this should elicit any kind of negative response from anybody.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155...-still-mask-in-forever-three-experts-weigh-in

The guy quoted in the article says he plans on wearing a mask forever. Is that your plan?

Context. The guy in the article, who is a phyisician and whose wife happens to suffer from long Covid, said he would wear a mask in a theater and and on a plane and implied other poorly ventilated places. Do you understand why he might say that?

 

[Doug B]

The guy quoted in the article says he plans on wearing a mask forever.

Context is king. From that link:

He evaluates it case by case. A small gathering where everyone is vaccinated and windows open may not require one. But sitting on an airplane or in a large, crowded theater might be a good idea to do one.

"Those places, I'm wearing a mask now, and I suspect I will wear a mask forever," Wachter said.

Might not be your decision or my decision ... but it's not on its face an unreasonable decision for that person in the specific situations they cited.

...

@Scoresman, I saw Dr. Monica Gandhi's name cited in that NPR link and I knew exactly where she was going to fall: "Get out there and lick some doorknobs!"

[foghornleghorn]

"That's a joke, son - a joke."

[/foghornleghorn]

 

[Doug B]

Covid can cause heart problems. Here's how the virus may do its damage (NBC News, 2/20/2023)
Scientists who studied human hearts found that infection appeared to make it harder for them to beat properly

Researchers from Columbia University in New York City examined autopsied heart tissue from people who had Covid, and found that the infection damaged the way cells in the heart regulate levels of calcium, a mineral that plays an important role in how the organ contracts and pumps blood throughout the body. In another part of the study, the same damage was seen in mice with Covid ...

When a person is infected with Covid, the immune system launches a hefty inflammatory response in an effort to fight off the virus. That inflammation, the new study found, disrupts how calcium is stored in the heart.

Calcium ions — a version of the element that carry a positive charge — are important messengers that regulate heart function, including how quickly and how forcefully the organ contracts. These ions are stored inside cells, on deck for when the body needs to use them. They’re released through channels in the cellular membrane, which ensures that just the right amount of calcium can get out.

The damage caused by inflammation during a Covid infection appears to prop these channels open, letting too much calcium leak from the cells of the heart, said Dr. Andrew Marks, a cardiologist and biophysics professor at Columbia University who co-led the study. This flood of calcium, he said, can decrease heart function and even cause fatal arrhythmias, or irregular heartbeats.

Although inflammation of the heart is a rare but documented side effect of the mRNA Covid vaccines, the study looked only at heart tissue from autopsies before vaccines were available.

“Whatever changes we saw were because of infection,” Marks said, adding that the new study was small, and the next step was to conduct the research on a larger scale.

Not yet peer-reviewed, but replicative studies are ongoing.

The question is can they treat/prevent this if they now possibly know what it is?

Good question. Like is there a scan anyone who had covid should get and then a treatment to prevent issues?

I don't know about whether or not doctors can scan for calcium ion (Ca2+) dysregulation -- that's a good question for some of our medical folks: @Terminalxylem ; @growlers ; @gianmarco . I did notice that the study in that article collected data from autopsies, though.

As for whether the calcium-ion issue can be treated or prevented ... again, I'd defer to the medical guys. I was trying to read up on this a little and came across this September 2020 paper that read like Ca2+ dysregulation treatment research was ongoing, but not yet particularly close to getting something specific to market.

 

[[icon]]

This thread has turned unreadable at this point (and has been for some time). What was a great resource in the past has become an exercise in futility.

Heard. I've done what I wanted to do (shown Lawfitz posts fake news, and dodges when called out.

I'll go back to avoiding this thread. Godspeed to those of you still wading through the noise.

 

[fatness]

This article pretty much sums up my view on mask wearing. I don’t see why this should elicit any kind of negative response from anybody.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155...-still-mask-in-forever-three-experts-weigh-in

The guy quoted in the article says he plans on wearing a mask forever. Is that your plan?

That's a bit inaccurate. There are a couple guys quoted in the article. One of them says he plans on wearing a mask forever in certain situations.

Wachter watched firsthand as his wife recovered from a bout of long COVID-19. He evaluates it case by case. A small gathering where everyone is vaccinated and windows open may not require one. But sitting on an airplane or in a large, crowded theater might be a good idea to do one. "Those places, I'm wearing a mask now, and I suspect I will wear a mask forever," Wachter said.

 

[LawFitz]

This thread has turned unreadable at this point (and has been for some time). What was a great resource in the past has become an exercise in futility.

The most completely predictable downside to closing the political forum.

If you think this is political, that's on you. This is NOT political to me. At all.

 

[LawFitz]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

I was asking more rhetorically.

And I took the opportunity to answer literally, because it needs to be said. We should be able to ask about vax status every death or disability from here on out given the controversy, scale and gravity of this issue, without being called ghouls. This especially after those same people were probably clamoring for people to lose their jobs last year over this same question.

the additional response was not necessary.

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you were replying to me right? I'm the recipient of the exchange and telling you it wasn't necessary.

This is a forum, not an IM chat. Your less than sincere rhetoric prompted a more than sincere dialog. Even if inconvenient for you, it was #SuperNecessary.

So back to the original question, did you have to ask?

Back to the original answer... Inconvenient, but #SuperNecessary.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Covid can cause heart problems. Here's how the virus may do its damage (NBC News, 2/20/2023)
Scientists who studied human hearts found that infection appeared to make it harder for them to beat properly

Researchers from Columbia University in New York City examined autopsied heart tissue from people who had Covid, and found that the infection damaged the way cells in the heart regulate levels of calcium, a mineral that plays an important role in how the organ contracts and pumps blood throughout the body. In another part of the study, the same damage was seen in mice with Covid ...

When a person is infected with Covid, the immune system launches a hefty inflammatory response in an effort to fight off the virus. That inflammation, the new study found, disrupts how calcium is stored in the heart.

Calcium ions — a version of the element that carry a positive charge — are important messengers that regulate heart function, including how quickly and how forcefully the organ contracts. These ions are stored inside cells, on deck for when the body needs to use them. They’re released through channels in the cellular membrane, which ensures that just the right amount of calcium can get out.

The damage caused by inflammation during a Covid infection appears to prop these channels open, letting too much calcium leak from the cells of the heart, said Dr. Andrew Marks, a cardiologist and biophysics professor at Columbia University who co-led the study. This flood of calcium, he said, can decrease heart function and even cause fatal arrhythmias, or irregular heartbeats.

Although inflammation of the heart is a rare but documented side effect of the mRNA Covid vaccines, the study looked only at heart tissue from autopsies before vaccines were available.

“Whatever changes we saw were because of infection,” Marks said, adding that the new study was small, and the next step was to conduct the research on a larger scale.

The question is can they treat/prevent this if they now possibly know what it is?

Good question. Like is there a scan anyone who had covid should get and then a treatment to prevent issues?

I don't know about whether or not doctors can scan for calcium ion (Ca2+) dysregulation -- that's a good question for some of our medical folks: @Terminalxylem ; @growlers ; @gianmarco . I did notice that the study in that article collected data from autopsies, though.

As for whether the calcium-ion issue can be treated or prevented ... again, I'd defer to the medical guys. I was trying to read up on this a little and came across this September 2020 paper that read like Ca2+ dysregulation treatment research was ongoing, but not yet particularly close to getting something specific to market.

You can visualize calcium deposits in coronary vessels supplying the heart via CT, and measure calcium levels in the blood. But that's not what the article was looking at - the autopsied tissue suggested calcium levels were depleted in individual heart muscle cells, by virtue of ion channels being inappropriately open from covid-19. There's no scan/blood test to measure intracellular calcium stores in living, beating hearts, and myocardial (heart) biopsy seems a bit extreme to test out their hypothesis in vivo.

There are medicines called calcium channel blockers (CCB), which act on ion channels throughout the body, including the heart and blood vessels. They also deplete intracellular calcium, and are commonly used to treat high blood pressure and some types of arrhythmias. Interestingly, there are studies which suggest these meds reduce mortality in covid-19, while others show increased mortality. This article does a decent job summarizing some of the controversies surrounding calcium, CCBs, and covid.

Calcium ions are central to coronavirus replication, and available evidence suggests that both CCBs, and hypocalcemia, may interfere with viral replication by reducing levels of intracellular calcium.

 

[Mitchie]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

I was asking more rhetorically.

And I took the opportunity to answer literally, because it needs to be said. We should be able to ask about vax status every death or disability from here on out given the controversy, scale and gravity of this issue, without being called ghouls. This especially after those same people were probably clamoring for people to lose their jobs last year over this same question.

the additional response was not necessary.

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you were replying to me right? I'm the recipient of the exchange and telling you it wasn't necessary.

This is a forum, not an IM chat. Your less than sincere rhetoric prompted a more than sincere dialog. Even if inconvenient for you, it was #SuperNecessary.

So back to the original question, did you have to ask?

Back to the original answer... Inconvenient, but #SuperNecessary.

Sorry should have made it clear that was also rhetorical. Guy lost two friends maybe save your comments for another time and place.

 

[The Commish]

And yes, there is a difference between "possible COVID treatment" and "approved COVID treatment". I have YET to see a study where ivermectin was given as the sole treatment. It was ALWAYS given as part of a cocktail of drugs VERY early on. So was remdesivir. NEITHER have EVER qualified as "approved COVID treatment" on their own...both were part of a cocktail treatment that had mixed results at best.

FTR, Remdesivir has been studied on its own.

To be clear....my "so was remdesivir" comment was to the "part of a cocktail of drugs" comment I also made. Was remdesivir ever studied as its own treatment alone? Missed that if it was and apologies.

 

[The Commish]

For those wanting to educate themselves, SADS stands for Sudden arrhythmic death syndrome. It's been around and studied heavily since the 1980s and the first accounts of it were likely in the 1940s. It is NOT new and is a condition that kills many every year. If people are struggling to find incidents of SADS today I don't have an explanation. People die from it every single day and this has been true for decades.

 

[LawFitz]

two guys about my age with heart issues that suddenly dropped dead a month or two after COVID. Was pretty sure this was the main factor in excess mortality?

Painful question, I know. Sorry to have to ask... Did you at all consider their vax history? What was it in terms of uptake and timing? ADE was a huge concern with mRNA tech prior to Covid. Could that have played here?

Sorry for your loss.

Do you have to ask?

We should all be asking this inconvenient question before postulating that Covid was the cause. I haven't read one account of a non-vaxxed person with SADS.

Can't tell you how many times the last two years I heard gross and gleeful calls that Darwinism would be killing off the unvaxxed; and yet every time someone dies suddenly it's either they are confirmed vaxxed or we are ghouls for wondering if they were when unconfirmed because of privacy. Where were the calls for privacy when people were losing their jobs over the question of whether or not they were vaxxed? And why aren't we seeing ANY reports of unvaxxed SADS cases? Inconvenient. And necessary.

I was asking more rhetorically.

And I took the opportunity to answer literally, because it needs to be said. We should be able to ask about vax status every death or disability from here on out given the controversy, scale and gravity of this issue, without being called ghouls. This especially after those same people were probably clamoring for people to lose their jobs last year over this same question.

the additional response was not necessary.

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you were replying to me right? I'm the recipient of the exchange and telling you it wasn't necessary.

This is a forum, not an IM chat. Your less than sincere rhetoric prompted a more than sincere dialog. Even if inconvenient for you, it was #SuperNecessary.

So back to the original question, did you have to ask?

Back to the original answer... Inconvenient, but #SuperNecessary.

Sorry should have made it clear that was also rhetorical. Guy lost two friends maybe save your comments for another time and place.

By your logic, we would never be able to ask difficult and inconvenient, but necessary questions. Sorry, but he noted Covid as his suspected cause with a question mark. Everyone who has lost or loses a loved one to SADS, turbo cancer, or any other sudden onset 2021+ sickness should be wondering about vax status and potential role in the matter. Simply amazing how many of you don't even want to acknowledge the possibility. Anecdotes abound showing that we suddenly have a pandemic of the vaccinated, but we can't get toward any legit exploration of whether or not those anecdotes are actually indicative of truth thanks to attitudes like yours.

 

[Schmeabs]

This article pretty much sums up my view on mask wearing. I don’t see why this should elicit any kind of negative response from anybody.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155...-still-mask-in-forever-three-experts-weigh-in

The guy quoted in the article says he plans on wearing a mask forever. Is that your plan?

Probably yes, but keep in mind I don't currently wear masks everywhere. I think when people are surprised about continued mask usage they assume people wear them everywhere. I'll probably settle into the following routine.

- Airports and airplanes forever. The worst thing is getting sick while traveling. This one's a no-brainer.
- Public transportation probably forever.
- Grocery stores and similar crowded places during flu/cold season or if COVID ever gets anymore peaks.
- I generally won't be wearing one anywhere outside unless it's an extremely crowded situation.

What the pandemic made me realize was that wearing a mask is such a no brainer in comparison to getting colds/flus at the rate I used to. It's not even just about COVID anymore. It sucks to get sick, period, and wearing a mask in the situations above is such a minor inconvenience in comparison. The tradeoff is so worth it.

If I felt it waa a minor inconveniece I might agree with you. However, it is a major inconvenience to me.

 

[sho nuff]

This article pretty much sums up my view on mask wearing. I don’t see why this should elicit any kind of negative response from anybody.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155...-still-mask-in-forever-three-experts-weigh-in

The guy quoted in the article says he plans on wearing a mask forever. Is that your plan?

Probably yes, but keep in mind I don't currently wear masks everywhere. I think when people are surprised about continued mask usage they assume people wear them everywhere. I'll probably settle into the following routine.

- Airports and airplanes forever. The worst thing is getting sick while traveling. This one's a no-brainer.
- Public transportation probably forever.
- Grocery stores and similar crowded places during flu/cold season or if COVID ever gets anymore peaks.
- I generally won't be wearing one anywhere outside unless it's an extremely crowded situation.

What the pandemic made me realize was that wearing a mask is such a no brainer in comparison to getting colds/flus at the rate I used to. It's not even just about COVID anymore. It sucks to get sick, period, and wearing a mask in the situations above is such a minor inconvenience in comparison. The tradeoff is so worth it.

If I felt it waa a minor inconveniece I might agree with you. However, it is a major inconvenience to me.

How so? How is a mask more inconvenient than being sick?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Why do you care so much if someone chooses to wear a mask. Seems like a lot of energy is spent feeling angry or perplexed or whatever else. Just keep on doing what you do and let others do the same.

Agreed.

Now let's check and see how things are going with the "Why can't people just mind their own business?" crowd:

If I felt it waa a minor inconveniece I might agree with you. However, it is a major inconvenience to me.

How so? How is a mask more inconvenient than being sick?

 

[Schmeabs]

This article pretty much sums up my view on mask wearing. I don’t see why this should elicit any kind of negative response from anybody.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155...-still-mask-in-forever-three-experts-weigh-in

The guy quoted in the article says he plans on wearing a mask forever. Is that your plan?

Probably yes, but keep in mind I don't currently wear masks everywhere. I think when people are surprised about continued mask usage they assume people wear them everywhere. I'll probably settle into the following routine.

- Airports and airplanes forever. The worst thing is getting sick while traveling. This one's a no-brainer.
- Public transportation probably forever.
- Grocery stores and similar crowded places during flu/cold season or if COVID ever gets anymore peaks.
- I generally won't be wearing one anywhere outside unless it's an extremely crowded situation.

What the pandemic made me realize was that wearing a mask is such a no brainer in comparison to getting colds/flus at the rate I used to. It's not even just about COVID anymore. It sucks to get sick, period, and wearing a mask in the situations above is such a minor inconvenience in comparison. The tradeoff is so worth it.

If I felt it waa a minor inconveniece I might agree with you. However, it is a major inconvenience to me.

How so? How is a mask more inconvenient than being sick?

I have not been wearing a mask for over 2 years and have not gotten sick. This includes around 10 round trip plane trips over that period. Masks make it difficult to breathe and they physically hurt my ears.

 

[sho nuff]

This article pretty much sums up my view on mask wearing. I don’t see why this should elicit any kind of negative response from anybody.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155...-still-mask-in-forever-three-experts-weigh-in

The guy quoted in the article says he plans on wearing a mask forever. Is that your plan?

Probably yes, but keep in mind I don't currently wear masks everywhere. I think when people are surprised about continued mask usage they assume people wear them everywhere. I'll probably settle into the following routine.

- Airports and airplanes forever. The worst thing is getting sick while traveling. This one's a no-brainer.
- Public transportation probably forever.
- Grocery stores and similar crowded places during flu/cold season or if COVID ever gets anymore peaks.
- I generally won't be wearing one anywhere outside unless it's an extremely crowded situation.

What the pandemic made me realize was that wearing a mask is such a no brainer in comparison to getting colds/flus at the rate I used to. It's not even just about COVID anymore. It sucks to get sick, period, and wearing a mask in the situations above is such a minor inconvenience in comparison. The tradeoff is so worth it.

If I felt it waa a minor inconveniece I might agree with you. However, it is a major inconvenience to me.

How so? How is a mask more inconvenient than being sick?

I have not been wearing a mask for over 2 years and have not gotten sick. This includes around 10 round trip plane trips over that period. Masks make it difficult to breathe and they physically hurt my ears.

That is fair. To others, like the doctor referenced...it is a way to mitigate other sicknesses. Things which are more inconvenient to him than a mask.
I don't personally find it all too difficult to breathe, nor is there any ear pain in short periods of wearing a proper fitting mask. If i were prone to more illnesses and in such situations alot. I probably would mask more than I do.