Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
***OFFICIAL*** FFA MLB Draft (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Capella
- Start date
Koya
Footballguy
I found this page which give a nice summary of each "era" of baseball (until the Balco mini park era at least). This could be useful in those old baseball debates about hitting .293 when the league avg. was .267 vs. batting .320 when the leave avg. was .290 - an objective source.
From http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlib...hronology/#1920
Contrary to the Doubleday-Cooperstown myth created by the Spalding Commission, baseball evolved rather than having been invented. From the first recorded game in 1845, through the establishment of professional teams in the 1860s and leagues in the 1870s, the 19th century was baseball's formative period in which the basic rules and structures of the game gradually assumed the form we know today.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» The Dead-Ball Era (1901-1919)
. Runs were scarce during the first two decades of 20th-century baseball as pitchers like Cy Young, Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson dominated the action. Legendary stars like Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner and Tris Speaker used speed and basepath bravado to generate offense in a game that seldom witnessed a home run. These years also saw the establishment of National and American League hegemony (leading to the birth of the World Series), the production of modern steel-structured downtown stadiums for every major league team, and the devastating "Black Sox" scandal of 1919 that threatened to drop baseball from its exalted standing in American sports.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» Baseball Between the Wars (1920-1941)
. Aided by the introduction of the lively ball and the unprecedented power surge of Babe Ruth, offense exploded during the 20's and 30's as the home run became baseball's defining act. With sluggers like Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio leading the way, the New York Yankees began a five-decade run as the sports' dominant franchise. In addition, baseball between the wars witnessed the advent of several trends that have stayed with us to the current day, including specialized relief pitching, minor-league farm systems, night games and radio broadcasts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» The War Years (1942-1945)
. World War II interrupted the careers of many of baseball's brightest stars. Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams and Bob Feller, among others, sacrificed significant chunks of their prime years in service of their country.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» Baseball in Transition (1946-1960)
. Two events would change baseball irrevocably in the years following World War II. At the center of both were the Brooklyn Dodgers, who in 1947 made Jackie Robinson the first African-American to play in a major-league game this century. Many others, as well as Latin and Asian players, soon followed Robinson's path as the national pastime began to more closely resemble the populace. Equally important in the game's chronology was the Dodgers' and rival New York Giants' move to the West Coast in 1958 as baseball grew beyond its eastern and midwestern roots. Soon, jets replaced trains as the prime method of player travel, and national television broadcasts helped the game reach a wider audience.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» Owner-Managed Growth (1961-1975)
. In 1961 and 1962 the major leagues added eight games onto their traditional 154-game season to accommodate the admission of four new franchises. This first round of expansion was repeated in 1969 as the major leagues moved from its early 20th-century origins of two eight-team leagues to four divisions of six teams each. The new configuration also generated a new round of post-season play as teams no longer qualified for the World Series merely by owning their league's best record. Pitching would reassert its primacy in these years as star hurlers like Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson terrorized opposing lineups. After the 1968 season, when Carl Yastrzemski won the AL batting crown with a record-low .301 clip, owners undertook a series of initiatives to reinvigorate offense, culminating with the introduction of the designated hitter to the American League in 1973.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» The Free-Agent Era (1976-present)
. Salaries skyrocketed as players took full advantage of their newly won right to shop themselves to the highest bidder. Labor conflicts became more prominent than ever before as lengthy strikes in 1981 and 1994 strained fan loyalty almost to the breaking point. In recent years, however, the new economics of the game have been driven by the construction of numerous "retro" stadiums designed to evoke nostalgia for baseball's past and provide cash cows for owners. On the field, hitting dominated to an extent that dwarfed even the fireworks of the 30's. Exceptions like Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux notwithstanding, pitching has never been in shorter supply. Led by sluggers like Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and Ken Griffey Jr., batting records have fallen at dizzying paces as outfield fences moved in and hitters bulked up.
edited to take out names at bottom cause some werent drafted
From http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlib...hronology/#1920
Contrary to the Doubleday-Cooperstown myth created by the Spalding Commission, baseball evolved rather than having been invented. From the first recorded game in 1845, through the establishment of professional teams in the 1860s and leagues in the 1870s, the 19th century was baseball's formative period in which the basic rules and structures of the game gradually assumed the form we know today.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» The Dead-Ball Era (1901-1919)
. Runs were scarce during the first two decades of 20th-century baseball as pitchers like Cy Young, Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson dominated the action. Legendary stars like Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner and Tris Speaker used speed and basepath bravado to generate offense in a game that seldom witnessed a home run. These years also saw the establishment of National and American League hegemony (leading to the birth of the World Series), the production of modern steel-structured downtown stadiums for every major league team, and the devastating "Black Sox" scandal of 1919 that threatened to drop baseball from its exalted standing in American sports.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» Baseball Between the Wars (1920-1941)
. Aided by the introduction of the lively ball and the unprecedented power surge of Babe Ruth, offense exploded during the 20's and 30's as the home run became baseball's defining act. With sluggers like Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio leading the way, the New York Yankees began a five-decade run as the sports' dominant franchise. In addition, baseball between the wars witnessed the advent of several trends that have stayed with us to the current day, including specialized relief pitching, minor-league farm systems, night games and radio broadcasts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» The War Years (1942-1945)
. World War II interrupted the careers of many of baseball's brightest stars. Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams and Bob Feller, among others, sacrificed significant chunks of their prime years in service of their country.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» Baseball in Transition (1946-1960)
. Two events would change baseball irrevocably in the years following World War II. At the center of both were the Brooklyn Dodgers, who in 1947 made Jackie Robinson the first African-American to play in a major-league game this century. Many others, as well as Latin and Asian players, soon followed Robinson's path as the national pastime began to more closely resemble the populace. Equally important in the game's chronology was the Dodgers' and rival New York Giants' move to the West Coast in 1958 as baseball grew beyond its eastern and midwestern roots. Soon, jets replaced trains as the prime method of player travel, and national television broadcasts helped the game reach a wider audience.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» Owner-Managed Growth (1961-1975)
. In 1961 and 1962 the major leagues added eight games onto their traditional 154-game season to accommodate the admission of four new franchises. This first round of expansion was repeated in 1969 as the major leagues moved from its early 20th-century origins of two eight-team leagues to four divisions of six teams each. The new configuration also generated a new round of post-season play as teams no longer qualified for the World Series merely by owning their league's best record. Pitching would reassert its primacy in these years as star hurlers like Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson terrorized opposing lineups. After the 1968 season, when Carl Yastrzemski won the AL batting crown with a record-low .301 clip, owners undertook a series of initiatives to reinvigorate offense, culminating with the introduction of the designated hitter to the American League in 1973.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
» The Free-Agent Era (1976-present)
. Salaries skyrocketed as players took full advantage of their newly won right to shop themselves to the highest bidder. Labor conflicts became more prominent than ever before as lengthy strikes in 1981 and 1994 strained fan loyalty almost to the breaking point. In recent years, however, the new economics of the game have been driven by the construction of numerous "retro" stadiums designed to evoke nostalgia for baseball's past and provide cash cows for owners. On the field, hitting dominated to an extent that dwarfed even the fireworks of the 30's. Exceptions like Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux notwithstanding, pitching has never been in shorter supply. Led by sluggers like Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and Ken Griffey Jr., batting records have fallen at dizzying paces as outfield fences moved in and hitters bulked up.
edited to take out names at bottom cause some werent drafted
Last edited by a moderator:
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
didn't the Mets win the Series in 1969??How can you be one of the best series of a period of 15 years and not win the World Series that year???
I agree with you...
Capella
Footballguy
I always liked this site
http://www.baseball-almanac.com
WARNING: you will get pop-ups.
But the World Series and All-Star sections over there are particularly impressive.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com
WARNING: you will get pop-ups.
But the World Series and All-Star sections over there are particularly impressive.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
We have had basketball and now baseball... when are we going to do a football one and do you think we could get 32 people to do it??? if so i would like to be involved.
oso diablo
Footballguy
since you never know who might be an alias, i'd rather wait until the end of the draft. I will say that all those mystery 1B are post-WW2.
oso diablo
Footballguy
realize you were asking Capella, but thought i'd weigh in with my top 5 pitchers1. Walter Johnson2. Lefty Grove3. Roger Clemens4. Cy Young5. Warren Spahn (Pete Alexander is probably better, but i'm a lefty, and wanted at least 2 lefties in my top 5)Lefty Grove would have been in my top 16 overall for this draft, so i don't think you should feel bad for taking him in the latter part of the 1st round. EXCEPT, Honus Wagner was still available. He was in my top 3 overall, so that was quite a surprise to see how far he dropped. James says that the value gap between the #1 SS (Wagner) and his #2 SS (Vaughan) is as big as the gap between #2 and #30. Talk about VBD! Honus has easily been the best value pick so far.
oso diablo
Footballguy
I was re-reading the BJHA last night, and he certainly does have his idiosyncrasies, several of which you mention.1. Bagwell: seem to recall that James has been rating him highly for some time, and probably just got tired of defending the ranking.2. I think your last comment on this point touches on what riles him up. Criticism (from others, not from you) that his work cannot have much merit since he never played the game.3. In another of the player profiles (a guy who hasn't been picked yet), he outlines what tends to make a player over-rated vs. under-rated. Sisler happens to hit on most of the over-rateds, and he calls Sisler the most over-rated player in the history of baseball. The fact that an observer of this draft thought that Sisler was mad value in round 4 is, to me, evidence of James' point.4. Agree, no further insight.It's a great book. Just one man's opinion, but that one man is the best ever at player evaluation by statistical analysis.
Last edited by a moderator:
Doug B
Footballguy
Well, at this point, James can have the last laugh and relax. Dozens of his disciples are high up in MLB front offices right now.Did any of y'all see SI's Baseball Preview last year? There was an article about several of the 20-something sabermetricians that are essentially running MLB clubs right now -- playing/scouting experience not required.When the Red Sox hired 28-year-old Theo Epstein as GM, I was really shocked. Only later did I find out about the trend in ML front offices to let statheads run the show.
Doug B
Footballguy
Even when the eras in which the two played are taken into account? The two are at least comparable....I considered Spahn at 1.09 after W Johnson and Koufax went, because I thought more of a run on piching was forthcoming. But I still think that Spahn was a legit first-rounder here.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
That's flat-out ridiculous and just shows that James has some kind of Sagarin-like prejudice against Sisler. Dude batted .340 for his career. Let's look at his best year, 1920.AB - 1st
Avg - 1st (.407 - yes, he hit .400 while leading the league in AB's)
OB% - 3rd
SLG - 2nd
OPS - 2nd
Runs - 2nd
Hits - 1st (257 - remember who Ichiro was chasing?)
Total bases - 1st
2B - 2nd
3b - 2nd
HR - 2nd
RBI - 2nd
SB - 2nd
How many guys have been top 2 in those last 3 categories in any season, let alone the same season? Mays maybe? Bonds? I dunno. If not for The Bambino he would have led the league in most of these categories.
No doubt he doesn't have the pop those others do, although he did manage to finish top 10 in the league in HR's 5 times, including 2nd twice (to that Ruth fellow).
I'll take a PM on 1B E because I smell a rat here (James, not you).
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
BTW, I love the Big Train, and he's justifiable at any pick from #2 down, but I think Ruth has to go #1 in this draft.
Wait, I better check with Mr. James before I say that. He probably has Ruth as the 20th best RF of all time.
Wait, I better check with Mr. James before I say that. He probably has Ruth as the 20th best RF of all time.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I was thinking about that...but are you willing to do OL and individual D players??I mean, a full basketball roster is 12, we did 8...we are doing a full baseball roster of 25...are we willing to do a full football roster of, what, 53???
Koya
Footballguy
Thanks for the input... objective insight is always good in these drafts. It was VERY difficult to pass up on Honus. In my estimation, he is a top 5 position player. However, there are things you can do at SS and in the infield to compensate - not player for player, but to build a team - while I did not think the same could be said for lefty. In a way, the Value of pitching in my mind's VBD overcame how great Honus was. But, if I had to do it again, I might take Honus a third of the time.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
I tend to think the whole stamina thing especially with Pedro is a little overused. We are in an era where starting pitchers get pulled after giving up a single in the 7th. 20 years ago they wouldn't do that. In his prime Pedro pitched he's fair share of CGs and shutouts.My only thing about Pedro is not longevity, but stamina. How many IP does he have, and can he go 9 Innings on short rest... or even get you 8 innings on most nights? As for your point on ERA, you are right one. Pedro is actually #1 in ERA adjusted for League/Time and Ballpark... thats as objective a measure as you can find. His ranking may go down a little as he winds down his career, but Pedro has a bit of a cushion over #2.I still haven't heard a good argument against Pedro. 7 years of dominance unmatched by any pitcher in any era. Starters shouldn't have ERAs under 2 these days. And he's got a 13 year career so its not like the longevity isn't there.It doesn't help that Pedro is active and has zero charisma. Yeah, DiMaggio was an icon, and Pedro picks fights with 70 year olds. But if you keep an objective eye, you gotta admit he pitches as well as anyone ever has.Spartans
Wagner was an awesome pick, disagreed with Pedro there..big time. You could've had Joe D there man.Still, you did get Yaz later on, who is also a bit overlooked in the all-time perspective. Not sure if I like the Newhouser selection either. Guy did have a pretty sick 3-year run from 44-46, but like somebody mentioned, that was during the War and he really only had two other top of the line seasons after that...not really enough to justify him there. Just my
As for Newhouser, the War aspect kinda slipped my mind when I made the pick, so it isn't as great as I thought. But the war was over by 1946, DiMaggio and Williams were back and he still matched his 44-45 greatness.
It kind of reminds me of my McAdoo pick in basketball. Not as famous or highly regarded, but the best there was for a time. I'm a sucker for dominant performances and mind-boggling stats, even if only for a short time.
Yaz sort of goes the opposite direction, but then again his 1967 was one of the best all-around seasons ever.
#2 on that list is Lefty Grove (go lefty) - who, like Pedro, played in an offensive era.
I think Pedro would have been amazing late second early third, but Lefty would have been better early second (if I knew he would be there).... when you value picthing, you do not want to miss out on what you think is a very strong advantage.
Ruth is up... an in his prime Pedro is one of maybe 10 pitchers you could send up there and feel good about things.
I think he was still taken too early
Koya
Footballguy
To me, and I am sure this plays out in most metrics, Sisler played during SUCH a hitters era, that it really pushes his comparable numbers down. Again, that isnt to say he was not a great player... he was . But just like 50 HR's today is like 30-35 in the late 60's, you need to look at how players did against their own time.Sisler'as .340 average, great as it was, occured when the league averages nearly .290. Still very good... but think about the 60's-80's where you had some league averages below .270.
More telling - since a walk is almost as good as a single (if no one is on base, just as good or better since it uses more picthes!), Sisler's career OBP is barley 20 points higher than the league average for his career. Compare that to say, George Brett, who had an OBP of 40 points higher than the league. His average is about 40 points over the lead league, which is comparable to Sislers almost 50 above the league with more scoring overall.
Just trying to demonstrate that the best way to determine "how good" a player is, is to look at the whole picture: numbers in context of era, plus accomplishments, plus win shares and contributions to a team - take into account certain era wide pluses or minuses (dead ball, low mound, Balco) and then go from there.
Koya
Footballguy
Pedro - I do give him a break beacause Pitchers rarely are allowed to go the full nine anymore... however I never had the impression that he had the type of arm to pitch a whole ton of innings. managers seem to use their pitchers delicately because of guys like Pedro. A guy like Curt, or Randy Johnson I think would be a workhorse back in the 20's and 30's - or anytime. I am not sure if Pedro's arm would withstand that. I would think it could end up more like a Koufax situation and have less longevity than Pedro has had, to date.Obviously that is just my opinion. I also hold Maddux with worse regard because as dominating as he is/was, he never seemd that true Bulldog workhorse type willing to pitch WHATEVER it took - 9, 10, 11 innings if need be!!! (type attitude at least) - but rather let me shuit everyone down and then leave to have someone else finish up. Seems Maddux doesntmind coming out of games when you have to physically pull Schilling off, even if Maddux is the better pitcher.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
It does?
Chicago guy. Maddux would run through a brick wall to win the game. Have you ever seen him hit/run the bases? He does whatever it takes. I'm pretty sure he's been up near the top in IP's for most of his career as well. That proboably has more to do w/ the fact he pitches so economically...but it's still true. Will have to look at the numbers. I'd be shocked if he wasn't top 10 in ip's for the vast majority of his career.
Last edited by a moderator:
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
BTW, in a draft that will be decided by fan vote, aren't "over-rated" players what you want?? (See NBA draft - Barkley, Charles - among others).I don't think a .340 hitter is going to drag a team down much in the sim games either.
Innings1988-249.0-41989-238.3-61990-237.0-21991-263.0-11992-268.0-11993-267.0-11994-202.0-11995-209.7-11996-245.0-21997-232.7-81998-251.0-31999-219.3-92000-249.3-22001-233.0-42003-218.3-62004-212.7-9Act-4181.3-2Car-4181.3-34Those are for Maddux.....year, innings pitched, rank. Notice he lead the league 5 times in a row.
Go Vikings!! :horns:
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Pedro did lead the league in complete games with 13 in his breakout season for Montreal in '97. Then he went to Boston where he had 15 over the next 3 years. Over the last 4 years, he's had 7.I think as he's had arm trouble, his managers have opted to play it safer and safer with him. I do think he's capable of going the distance more often than he does.
UCONNMantle and Tris are a nice way to start any team..Robinson is a great player to have at the top of your lineup, but didn't like the Arky pick. Just not good value there. He'll work out well as a guy to move players around, etc. I'd put him #2 in my lineup and he'll be fine knocking singles left and right and moving guys over. Just thought it was early for him.There are lot of great ss's left. I'm still unsure of the pick. He lead the leage in OBP 3 years in a row, and actually lead the league in OBP and Slugging one year. I don't know if any other ss has ever done that. He actually lead the league in HR's one year as well. They aren't impressive totals, but for his time he could smack the ball around a little (and this was the 30's...not the 1800's). He also stole some bases (leading the league once and finishing top 10, 5 times). The reason I picked him was because I wanted to alternate a lefty and righty bat at the top w/ high OBP's (and "getting rid of" two defensive positions was a plus). They can both run, but I'm not going to steal much anyway (why run Mickey out of RBI situations?). Also my park will turn its share of singles into doubles and triples just cuz the OF is so hard to cover (the reason I took Mickey and Tris). I might not be able to get as deep a bench as I wanted cuz I see I'll have to load up on some pitching in the middle rounds. That really made a "balanced" line-up I could hit against either lefty or righty pitching important to me. 1. L2. R3. L4. SSee the pattern? Damn getting the best switch hitter ever to plug right into the middle of the order was nice. I 
the Mick.Edited to add I actually have a damn good hitters park even though most will just look at the CF distance and assume it's a pitchers park. Whatif actually plays it neutral to HR's. It's irregularly shaped. The lines are inviting it just goes out at a steep incline toward center making the gaps deep and dead center extremely deep. You can pull a hr (or poke a good fastball the other way) but also get huge gaps in the outfield to rip doubles and even triples (or inside the parkers if some CF thinks he'll play Mickey too close).also adding Robinson might lead-off. It'll depend on what I get later. If I can move Tris to 5 comfortably I'll go r,l,r (or switch), s, l, ect.
the Mick.Edited to add I actually have a damn good hitters park even though most will just look at the CF distance and assume it's a pitchers park. Whatif actually plays it neutral to HR's. It's irregularly shaped. The lines are inviting it just goes out at a steep incline toward center making the gaps deep and dead center extremely deep. You can pull a hr (or poke a good fastball the other way) but also get huge gaps in the outfield to rip doubles and even triples (or inside the parkers if some CF thinks he'll play Mickey too close).also adding Robinson might lead-off. It'll depend on what I get later. If I can move Tris to 5 comfortably I'll go r,l,r (or switch), s, l, ect.
Last edited by a moderator:
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Just left the door wide open for me to tout what is perhaps Honus Wagner's greatest statistical achievement.Honus simultaneously led the league in OBP and Slugging FOUR TIMES!!!
He led it in OPS four more times, for a total of eight.
Plus his baseball card is worth a lot of money.....
"Honus has hit the road again. The "Mona Lisa of Baseball Cards," the Honus Wagner T206 tobacco card was sold on eBay for $1.1 million, plus a buyer's premium of $165,000. The buyer was Brian Seigel, a collector from southern California."
Last edited by a moderator:
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Maybe we should decide the tournament on the basis of baseball card value.Plus his baseball card is worth a lot of money.....
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Thanks for the lesson in all-time drafting, Lebron.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
A right handed Sandy Koufax.
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
This is really starting to blow.
Koya
Footballguy
In the long run, someone with a lot of walks - with more discipline at the plate - will make the pitcher go deeper into pitch counts. Obviously you can get a hit after fouling off 10 pitches. You can also get a hit (especially if you rarely walk) with 1, 2 or 3 pitched. It's impossible to walk without at LEAST four pitches.Just a point.
Koya
Footballguy
Is there any figure for average innings per start? Because your stats surely suggest I am mistaken... so I wonder why I have the impression that I do have. If he simply had more starts but less innings per start, maybe I have some basis for my (apparantly inccorect) conclusions.
You could just do the math, but I don't have like a leaderboard list for that stat...I'd say when you add in the leading in CG's thing proboably just means you just have that in your head for some reason that really aint accurate...maybe the games you've seen him pitch (I assume you don't make it a point to watch every Greg Maddux start) it's just ended up that way and stuck out in your head.
