Fennis
Footballguy
17.1 Imagine (song) by John Lennon
IMO the most beautiful and poetic song. My clear #1 in the category.
IMO the most beautiful and poetic song. My clear #1 in the category.
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Official Great Works Draft (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Doug B
Footballguy
If they don't fit the category, why should they be allowed to be drafted? Take the argument to the extreme -- are we having a draft for "Stuff" where the judges are meant to compares apples to orangutans to manhole covers? If we're NOT doing a "Stuff" draft, why aren't we making summary narrow calls regarding the category definitions?
krista4
Footballguy
It was a good pick. I was surprised you hadn't taken Strangelove yet, though.Sorry about Brooklyn. If it makes you feel any better, I had to be in Skokie, IL by 7 a.m. this morning.Atomic theory?!...
I hate myself for not taking lolita or Dr strangelove.AND I'm still in frigging Brooklyn
krista4
Footballguy
An argument can be made that they do fit the category. Not one I agree with, but it's not a preposterous argument. I thought it was self evident that adherence to the category would be a critical issue in determining value. If I draft a Lambourghini sports car in a speed boat category, it's my responsibility to make the argument that it belongs in that category, and if I fail, then I'd expect a pretty poor grade in that category. I think we're making something much harder than it seems to me.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Was just joshing, I'm not going that way. I'm just perplexed that the T.V. judge is struggling with this; Pepsi and Twinkies are best sellers. Just because something is popular doesn't define it as great.I have a couple oddballs in the Painting category. At first I thought a drawing or Tapestry (it's actually emroidery) would be hard to judge side by side with oils and tempera. In fact, howver, as I have been doing the research, how to value each piece based on artistic merit and historical importance has become more clear. Its not nearly as difficult or opaque as I imagined.That's fine with me - you're drafting the TV show, not the athletic achievement. You want to compare a good year at the Masters to M*A*S*H, be my guest - I'd just expect a 1 or a 2 for a score.You may recall Doug B was the only member of the triumvirate who thought the Super Bowl should not be allowed. In fact, I believe he said it was a very easy rejection for him personally, without any debate because it was so obvious.It's in. Pandora's Box opened.Much like the Super Bowl, I ain't down with the Miracle on Ice broadcast as a Great Work. I just don't get it.
Nicklaus 1986 Comeback at the Masters is on my short list, along with Tiger Woods 1997 win at Augusta. Oh this is going to be fun now.
However, I wish I could give out 30 or 40 top 5 scores instead of 15. Lot of good picks in the category, especially of late.
krista4
Footballguy
It seems that you're mischaracterizing what he said. Floppo did not state that they "don't fit the category"--that is your assertion. He appears to be saying what many of us are--they technically fit the category but are not great works within the category.
Doug B
Footballguy
Tim opined that the Super Bowls could be #1 in the Television Show category, and our Television Show judge -- Yankee -- has expressed that he's open to giving good rankings for these groundbreaking sports broadcasts. Who's definition of "not great works" are we going by here?
Uncle Humuna
Footballguy
I think it's probably more like drafting "the car that JFK was riding in when he was assassinated" in a all-time greatest car category.Technically, it's a car.
But it's importance has nothing to do with the car itself.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
It's the Great Works Draft.The greatest achievements in human history.
You're struggling with this? Really??!!
How is that even possible?
You don't understand what makes something great? You're valuing popularity? Over what...artistic merit, lasting influence, impact on society...you actually think the broadcast of sporting event is worthy of high ranking?
I've watched you screw up rankings - BADLY - in two drafts now.
Why did I think this one would be any different?
You're clueless. You have absolutely no discernment skills whatsover if you think this is a tough call.
Doug B
Footballguy
Right ... to really nail down the analogy, the commissioner then offers up the opinion that said car might be one the most culturally-relevant cars of all time and deserves a high ranking. Then the category judge strokes his chin and says, "yeah, I can see that."
flysack
Footballguy
Effe that. Team BobbyLayne™is taking Heidi next, but only the opening 65 seconds broadcast on November 17th, 1968. Go Raiders!You may recall Doug B was the only member of the triumvirate who thought the Super Bowl should not be allowed. In fact, I believe he said it was a very easy rejection for him personally, without any debate because it was so obvious.It's in. Pandora's Box opened.Much like the Super Bowl, I ain't down with the Miracle on Ice broadcast as a Great Work. I just don't get it.
Nicklaus 1986 Comeback at the Masters is on my short list, along with Tiger Woods 1997 win at Augusta. Oh this is going to be fun now.
flysack
Footballguy
Hey, if that car weren't used during that ride through Dallas, a better protected one would have been, thus limiting the ability for a lone gunman to get off a head shot, thus keeping Kennedy alive, thus changing history forever.......Gavrilo Princip!@#
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Good Call, SA! Forgot about that one. After all, that game is why no NFL game ever gets preempted. That's huge, eh?Sending you PM with another idea for 17.07. Beautiful day, strolling over to relax in CP.Effe that. Team BobbyLayne™is taking Heidi next, but only the opening 65 seconds broadcast on November 17th, 1968. Go Raiders!You may recall Doug B was the only member of the triumvirate who thought the Super Bowl should not be allowed. In fact, I believe he said it was a very easy rejection for him personally, without any debate because it was so obvious.It's in. Pandora's Box opened.Much like the Super Bowl, I ain't down with the Miracle on Ice broadcast as a Great Work. I just don't get it.
Nicklaus 1986 Comeback at the Masters is on my short list, along with Tiger Woods 1997 win at Augusta. Oh this is going to be fun now.
Doug B
Footballguy
Minus the invective tone ... you've basically made the argument I was going for yesterday that the Super Bowl broadcasts should have been summarily rejected from the Television Show category.Perhaps there is a bright line we're all missing between Television Show and Television Broadcast? What other category do we have that's so ill-defined? Imagine if we merely had a category for "Book" that was aimed at Don Quixote and 100 Years of Solitude and yet drew picks like the 1987 Honda Accord Chilton Manual. And then folks were able to demonstrate that this particular Chilton guide was the best auto-repair guide ever, allowing total doofuses to make an Accord from the ground up from spare parts.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Ok, I just saw this movie for the first time two weeks ago with Comcast OnDemand. It was Saturday night. Wife went to bed early with cold. Kid already asleep and nothing on. So I figured, alright, I'll finally see what all the hype was. I have to admit off the bat that it was a very very good movie. In fact as soon as it was over I reset the OnDemand and watched it again to see if I missed anything.Having said that... I just don't think the Joker was the greatest thing ever. To me, it was good. Very good. But I can't get to the point where many were going. But I have to admit that I don't know what I could add to have made it better. I just know it didn't speak to me as the greatest performance ever.
I enjoyed the Harvey Dent character more and wish they would have only touched on him briefly so that he could be the villan in the next one, but I'm not in charge so.....
Uncle Humuna
Footballguy
I REALLY wish we still had the :honda: smiley . . .
Postradamus
Footballguy
AHA Got it now.
Everyone has seen this film. Everyone loves this film. If you'd only find the courage, heart, and the brains to rank it somewhere in the top10 where it belongs.
We're not in Kansas anymore....
Everyone has seen this film. Everyone loves this film. If you'd only find the courage, heart, and the brains to rank it somewhere in the top10 where it belongs.
We're not in Kansas anymore....
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flysack
Footballguy
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Abrantes
Footballguy
Huge fan of Ledger as the Joker, and he definitely stole the show every second on the screen. However, as far as being an all-time great performance, I'm not sure how highly I'd rank it. There's a lot of competition, and not even the actors that inspired Ledger have been picked yet. It'll likely end up being the most recent performance in the draft, and as such, it's the freshest in our minds, but I think that's skewing people's judgement.
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Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Ok.I'm not getting into the greatness sans popularity argument again. Nothing is great if no one knows about it. The end.BobbyLayne said:
But let's get to the three things you listed - artistic merit, lasting influence and impact on society.
Artistic Merit - there probably isn't a lot here for the Super Bowl or Miracle on Ice as a show. The mechanics of the production of the Super Bowl could be given the millions of things needed to be done all in one take - unlike scripted shows where you can edit and retake. The Miracle on Ice show wasn't anything special in that TV in the early 1980's wasn't what it is now, and the game was nowhere near the popularity that the Super Bowl is. So overall, they take a big hit here.
Lasting Influence. I guess the follow up is influence on what? America? You are hard pressed to find something as influential as the Super Bowl. The marketing engines behind it last a full year and hundreds of companies enter the public eye with it, and use their campaigns to grow their businesses. It has become a national holiday event like the 4th of July. Influence on the medium of TV? Marketing, again, has changed dramatically. So has coverage of all sports with NFL films ever changing and growing abilities that are in full bloom at the Super Bowl. The money made by the network on the game can make a bad year good. Other networks that don't televise the game come up with halftime shows for just a small part of the large audience. The Miracle on Ice didn't have any of that. But the lasting influence of that game is an interesting question. It is still considered a great great moment in America, not just American sports. This category could give a bump to the Super Bowl and at least allow the Miracle to hold ground.
Impact on Society. I don't know how you can argue that either have had no impact, so we are arguing degrees. I would argue that the Miracle on Ice had an enormous impact given the political times. The Super Bowl probablly a little lesser.
In attempting to make me look stupid for trying to work within the confines of the category and the picks allowed, all you did was show that it's possible to allow them and rank them fairly well.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
All I was asking for was some insight into the thinking that allows the picks. If they are allowed, then I have to judge them in the category, no?Doug B said:
Postradamus
Footballguy
Alright...you can blame me... it was on my list of initial suggestions when I joined him.' said:rodg12 said:damnit Norwood!
damnit anborn!
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
This is a very good point. I think I am allowing for the actual production of the "show" to enter my thinking when the spirit of the category, I feel, was geared more towards MASH and The Sopranos.So, next question, if I'm allowed without getting attacked for thinking aloud in the thread, is if I go with this sentiment, which I think I will barring a really good argument (and because it's the one that in the end I always cycled back to) won't change, does that mean that the Super Bowl is the default lowest selection? I guess my question is, let's assume that there are 38 shows selected with the Super Bowl and Miracle as 39 and 40. Let us also assume that the rankings show the imaginary show of Jerry's Friends to be show 38. It was good in the sitcom arena. Lasted several years. Some good characters. A few lines are still part of the lexicon. That type of thing. Can the Super Bowl rank over something like that because it's The Super Bowl ?Doug B said:
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Yeah, it's my call, which is why I was trying to think out loud here. DougB has given me the best focus on it though. Another way to look at it is - you can play football without TV coverage. You can even have a professional league play and crown a champion without TV. But if you want to act in a sitcom or drama, if you don't have TV, you are on stage in a play - which is a different category.Yeah, the more I think about this the less relevence these sporting events have up against the spirit of the category.The many of us who have argued this. But of course it will be up to the judge as the final arbiter of what he thinks is great.Doug B said:
krista4
Footballguy
I agree. And I think it's perfectly fine that you were thinking out loud and getting other people's input on it.
Doug B
Footballguy
I was arguing this as well yesterday, and got steamrolled.I guess I just disagree with the whole "let the judge figure it out" mindset. The categories should be defined well enough that the best of the best are most likely to get served up on the judge's plate ... not a stream of technicalities. I understand there will always be a borderline, but the territory still need not be so broad.The many of us who have argued this. But of course it will be up to the judge as the final arbiter of what he thinks is great.Doug B said:
Uncle Humuna
Footballguy
Timmay times out in 1 minute . . .
Doug B
Footballguy
When you give your [regis] final answer [/regis] on this matter, I will recast my pick accordingly.EDIT: I am interested in further input from tim, actually. Will wait for a spell.Yeah, it's my call, which is why I was trying to think out loud here. DougB has given me the best focus on it though. Another way to look at it is - you can play football without TV coverage. You can even have a professional league play and crown a champion without TV. But if you want to act in a sitcom or drama, if you don't have TV, you are on stage in a play - which is a different category.Yeah, the more I think about this the less relevence these sporting events have up against the spirit of the category.The many of us who have argued this. But of course it will be up to the judge as the final arbiter of what he thinks is great.
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rodg12
Footballguy
He was on auto-skip. Hope Doug B didn't leave, he was up.
Doug B
Footballguy
Tim asked to be skipped ... but I missed that Posty picked Wizard of Oz.
That means I've been OTC for an hour . Sorry Abrantes and Bobby -- skip me here and pick, please.
rodg12
Footballguy
Skipped Picks
16.17 Timschochet
17.04 Timschochet
17.05 - Doug B
17.06 - Abrantes - OTC
17.07 - BobbyLayne (I believe flysack has this pick) - On Deck
17.08 - Tides - In The Hole
17.09 - Wikkidpissah
17.10 - Thatguy
ETA: Doug B said to skip......
16.17 Timschochet
17.04 Timschochet
17.05 - Doug B
17.06 - Abrantes - OTC
17.07 - BobbyLayne (I believe flysack has this pick) - On Deck
17.08 - Tides - In The Hole
17.09 - Wikkidpissah
17.10 - Thatguy
ETA: Doug B said to skip......
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Doug B
Footballguy
Then why were you OK with the Super Bowl pick yesterday Don't let people touch that hot plate bare-handed, tell 'em categorically "NO!".Guess I'm more of a tight-fisted control freak than you & tim
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Doug, you got a WIS pick to make. Quit messing around.
Guess I'm more of a tight-fisted control freak than you & tim
krista4
Footballguy
Oh no, believe me I'm a control freak.
Guess I'm more of a tight-fisted control freak than you & tim
You're still failing to acknowledge the distinction, which I (and a few others) have made consistently since yesterday, as to whether a person can make the pick within the (horribly vague) guidelines of the category versus whether the pick is a good one. I don't see it as my place within the triumvirate to say whether the pick is "good", but only whether it is allowed. Hell, if I were throwing out picks on the basis of whether they were good, we'd have a couple fewer movie picks already. In any case, it seems that the issue has been resolved.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I don't thin the MOI is anything like the SB. The SB is an annual glut of TV marketing and extravagence where the game is almost secondary to most of the watchers. The MOI was a one time thing in which it was the game itself, with a little help from Al Michaels, that created the moment. It's easily distinguishable between the two and I don't think allowing the SB opens the Box for other singular sporting moments. THere's a big difference between the two. Nobody knows when the next great moment will come and just because it did doesn't make that particular broadcast "great" in terms of TV as an institution. The SB, with it's commercials and international ratings dominance is a completely different animal than even as great a moment as MOI.Just my opinion as a near non=participant, but there is a clear line for me to see between them.BobbyLayne said:You may recall Doug B was the only member of the triumvirate who thought the Super Bowl should not be allowed. In fact, I believe he said it was a very easy rejection for him personally, without any debate because it was so obvious.It's in. Pandora's Box opened.Abrantes said:Much like the Super Bowl, I ain't down with the Miracle on Ice broadcast as a Great Work. I just don't get it.
Nicklaus 1986 Comeback at the Masters is on my short list, along with Tiger Woods 1997 win at Augusta. Oh this is going to be fun now.
Uncle Humuna
Footballguy
mad sweeney
Footballguy
How about a book with 900 year old men, a boat with two of each animal, burning and speaking bushes, people rising from the dead and a genie poofing everything into existence among many, many other impossible acts going into a NON FICTION category and probably taking the highest tier?Doug B said:
Abrantes
Footballguy
There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy
And God I know I'm one...
17.06 The Animals' The House of The Rising Sun (Song)
Arrrrgh. This is awful. How does one go about picking just three damn songs? I love everything about the Animals' version of this one, from the dark, fatalist tone to Eric Burdon's raw delivery and Price's organ jamming. It grips the listener by the throat and refuses to let go. I don't think there's been anything like it before, or ever since.
They call the Rising Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy
And God I know I'm one...
17.06 The Animals' The House of The Rising Sun (Song)
Arrrrgh. This is awful. How does one go about picking just three damn songs? I love everything about the Animals' version of this one, from the dark, fatalist tone to Eric Burdon's raw delivery and Price's organ jamming. It grips the listener by the throat and refuses to let go. I don't think there's been anything like it before, or ever since.
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Postradamus
Footballguy
Seems like me and you are on the same wavelength Postradamus. I debated between this, Hey Jude, and another choice for my last pick. Definitely would have taken it had it gotten back to me. Good pick.
I like our teams. Wanna join forces?
krista4
Footballguy
We have other categories that have been ill-defined. BL pointed out paintings; we also had issues in building/structure; Rosetta Stone was initially put into non-fiction; etc. We work through them; the judges for the categories make rulings; and we move on.FWIW, I'd be willing to let the two sporting events selectors re-choose if they wanted, since the category was ill-defined and has now been refined differently than they expected. We offered that option in buildings/structures when that controversy arose as well.
krista4
Footballguy
mad sweeney, I had intended to PM you but others might find your answer useful, too.
In looking at movie performances, you said something, I believe, about giving extra points for someone who is not expected to knock it out of the park but does, something outside of the norm for an actor/actress. Is this correct? I'm sorry but I can't find your initial judging criteria post without wading through hundreds of others.
In looking at movie performances, you said something, I believe, about giving extra points for someone who is not expected to knock it out of the park but does, something outside of the norm for an actor/actress. Is this correct? I'm sorry but I can't find your initial judging criteria post without wading through hundreds of others.
