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Official Great Works Draft (2 Viewers)

I'm going to give Nanook of the North 12 points, tied with Man on Wire. It would be hard to overestimate the influence of this movie, and 80+ years later it's still fascinating as well. I bump it down below several other docs on the basis of the possible inauthentic nature of some of its subject matter, including the fact that much of the film turned out to be recreations that were somewhat off-kilter from reality.

 
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One more doc I wanted to recommend as a personal favorite--maybe couldn't have rated it way high but it is a perfect movie IMO: Spellbound. More genuine suspense than I can remember in just about any movie, whether doc or fiction, and I laughed, I cried, etc. Also a perfect family movie.

 
Nonfiction 2 Points

The Right Stuff

Cadillac Desert

IMO, Tom Wolfe's writing is some of the best of the late 20th Century. In The Right Stuff he captures a seminal American event: the space program. I don't think this is his best nonfiction work (I prefer The Painted Word) but it's excellent, anyhow.

Cadillac Desert I have not read. I have read about it, and understand it to be a critique of the environmental policies of the Western United States. I am ranking this selection here partly because I am unable to guess the long term influences that this book might have, but mainly because the influences of the books that are ranked above it are so much greater.

 
Non Fiction 3 Pts

Night

In Cold Blood

Both of the masterpieces are essentially really novels. They're called non fiction because the essentials really happened. But Night is written in artistic prose. And In Cold Blood takes incredible liberties with the story of the Kansas murders. I like Capote better than Weisel, but both of these are as well written as anything you're going to find on this list. Yet 3 points is all I can give here.

 
This guy is disappointed to see our boy already posting the non-fiction rankings.

I thought this one really could've set up some good nerd fights. I threw some bait out there, but nobody really seemed to bite. :banned:

 
Non Fiction 4 Points

Mastering The Art of French Cooking’

Diet for A Small Planet

The Joy of Cooking

The Lives of a Cell

It's all about the cooking here. Actually, Diet is a proponent of vegetarianism, and it may come to have even more influence in the future. The two cookbooks are probably the most famous ever of their kind. The Lives of a Cell is a series of essays, from a scientific perspective, which lead to a rather collectivist conclusion. Considered thought provoking, especially in the 1970's.

 
OK, throwing the rest of tim's and MfB's play rankings into tim's framework:

Macbeth: Already gave this 20 points; I assume no explanation necessary.

The Taming of the Shrew: I know it's one of tim's favorites, but scholarly opinion would place it among Shakespeare's weakest, whether you see it as misogynistic or feminist. Still, a weak Shakespeare is pretty damn good. I'll put it in lower second tier, with Richard II, at 11 points.

The Iceman Cometh: More of a steal IMO than Shrew was, let's put it just a couple of tiers below Long Day's Journey into Night, at 15 points.

Inherit the Wind: Great drama, but I'm not sure it's more than a "meh" to me as a play. The movie is much more memorable at this point, despite a couple of Broadway revivals. 7 points

The Children's Hour: Another pretty good steal here. Its reputation seems to revolve around its controversial nature, forgetting that it's just a damn finely-crafted work. 10 points

Back with MfB's in a minute.

 
MfB's plays:



The Crucible: One of my favorites. Not quite at the level of Death of a Salesman, but a fascinating work whether viewed as capturing a moment in history, applying the issues to current events, or simply as a moral questioning. 14 points

The Rocky Horror Show: I would have rated musicals generally a little higher, but as it is I have to compare this with where other musicals were rated. I can't put it at the same level as Les Mis; therefore, 4 points.

Rent: No reason a more modern musical such as Les Mis or Rent can't be as well-respected as an old-timer, and I think those two are the best of the bunch. It compares favorably IMO to Oklahoma!, so 10 points.

Play: Toughest one to rate; very love/hate for most people. Put me in the "finds it absolutely fascinating" camp and give it 11 points.

Phedre: Ridiculous value as one of the last picks in the draft. There's a production of this in London right now starring Helen Mirren, and I'd love to see it! Racine's masterpiece as France's master tragedian gets 13 points.

 
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Current Total Points from Judges Rankings

Categories Ranked: Political Documents, Documentaries, Plays, Philosophical/Political Ideas

BobbyLayne - 116

Genedoc - 115

Fennis/Krista - 108

Timschochet - 108

Uncle Humuna - 104

Bob Lee Swagger - 100

Postradamus - 94

El Floppo - 90

MisfitBlondes - 89

Team CIA - 87

Rodg - 84

DC Thunder - 83

Thatguy - 82

Scott Norwood - 74

Abrantes - 70

Doug B - 67

Tides of War - 61

Yankee23Fan - 59

Wikkidpissah - 58

Tirnan - 54

*Abrantes missing points for Philosophical/Political Idea

 
Current Total Points from Judges Rankings

Categories Ranked: Political Documents, Documentaries, Plays, Philosophical/Political Ideas

BobbyLayne - 116

Genedoc - 115

Fennis/Krista - 108

Timschochet - 108

Uncle Humuna - 104

Bob Lee Swagger - 100

Postradamus - 94

El Floppo - 90

MisfitBlondes - 89

Team CIA - 87

Rodg - 84

DC Thunder - 83

Thatguy - 82

Scott Norwood - 74

Abrantes - 70

Doug B - 67

Tides of War - 61

Yankee23Fan - 59

Wikkidpissah - 58

Tirnan - 54

*Abrantes missing points for Philosophical/Political Idea
Does these rankings include the "Album" Situation?
 
MfB's plays:



The Crucible: One of my favorites. Not quite at the level of Death of a Salesman, but a fascinating work whether viewed as capturing a moment in history, applying the issues to current events, or simply as a moral questioning. 14 points

The Rocky Horror Show: I would have rated musicals generally a little higher, but as it is I have to compare this with where other musicals were rated. I can't put it at the same level as Les Mis; therefore, 4 points.

Rent: No reason a more modern musical such as Les Mis or Rent can't be as well-respected as an old-timer, and I think those two are the best of the bunch. It compares favorably IMO to Oklahoma!, so 10 points.

Play: Toughest one to rate; very love/hate for most people. Put me in the "finds it absolutely fascinating" camp and give it 11 points.

Phedre: Ridiculous value as one of the last picks in the draft. There's a production of this in London right now starring Helen Mirren, and I'd love to see it! Racine's masterpiece as France's master tragedian gets 13 points.
youre more generous with your rankings than Tim is with his.
 
Okay I have the 1st tier for Poems all pointed out. I'll do that now, but be patient with the rest of the points for the other 3 tiers, I am working on it. I think the first tier pretty much speaks for itself, they're all amazing.

Poem tiers

Tier 1

20s

The Iliad:homer:

Divine Comedy - Dante Alighieri

Not much has to be said about either of these works, or the entire top tier, as they are all masterpieces.

19s

The Odyssey:homer:

Paradise Lost - John Milton

Again, two masterpieces that will be preserved and studied forever that are very entertaining to this day. These aren’t 20s because I feel that the other two are slightly more entertaining.

18s

The Aeneid – Virgil

The Nibelungenlied

Both of these works represent national epics in the vein of the Iliad and the Odyssey, perhaps not as famous, but still excellent.

17s

Sonnet 18 - William Shakespeare

Beowulf

Sonnet 18 is generally agreed to be the best of the Bard’s sonnets and is beautifully written. Many believe it is written to a man rather than a woman, NTTAWT. Beowulf is something that perhaps everyone here has encountered in school, like it or not, but it’s pretty damn entertaining.

16s

The Bhagavad Gita

The Waste Land - T.S. Eliot

After reading some of the Gita, I realize I did have it too low initially. It’s a masterwork and it belongs in tier 1, no doubt. The Waste Land is Eliot at his best. There are so many intricate allusions and meanings woven into a masterfully crafted poem. It’s definitely one of my favorites.

 
MfB's plays:



The Crucible: One of my favorites. Not quite at the level of Death of a Salesman, but a fascinating work whether viewed as capturing a moment in history, applying the issues to current events, or simply as a moral questioning. 14 points

The Rocky Horror Show: I would have rated musicals generally a little higher, but as it is I have to compare this with where other musicals were rated. I can't put it at the same level as Les Mis; therefore, 4 points.

Rent: No reason a more modern musical such as Les Mis or Rent can't be as well-respected as an old-timer, and I think those two are the best of the bunch. It compares favorably IMO to Oklahoma!, so 10 points.

Play: Toughest one to rate; very love/hate for most people. Put me in the "finds it absolutely fascinating" camp and give it 11 points.

Phedre: Ridiculous value as one of the last picks in the draft. There's a production of this in London right now starring Helen Mirren, and I'd love to see it! Racine's masterpiece as France's master tragedian gets 13 points.
youre more generous with your rankings than Tim is with his.
I don't remember where tim had these, but it's not surprising. Basically I'm just a much nicer person.Kidding, tim.

 
Current Total Points from Judges Rankings

Categories Ranked: Political Documents, Documentaries, Plays, Philosophical/Political Ideas

BobbyLayne - 116

Genedoc - 115

Fennis/Krista - 108

Timschochet - 108

Uncle Humuna - 104

Bob Lee Swagger - 100

Postradamus - 94

El Floppo - 90

MisfitBlondes - 89

Team CIA - 87

Rodg - 84

DC Thunder - 83

Thatguy - 82

Scott Norwood - 74

Abrantes - 70

Doug B - 67

Tides of War - 61

Yankee23Fan - 59

Wikkidpissah - 58

Tirnan - 54

*Abrantes missing points for Philosophical/Political Idea
Ooooooo, look at the big brain on BobbyLayne!
 
Current Total Points from Judges Rankings

Categories Ranked: Political Documents, Documentaries, Plays, Philosophical/Political Ideas

BobbyLayne - 116

Genedoc - 115

Fennis/Krista - 108

Timschochet - 108

Uncle Humuna - 104

Bob Lee Swagger - 100

Postradamus - 94

El Floppo - 90

MisfitBlondes - 89

Team CIA - 87

Rodg - 84

DC Thunder - 83

Thatguy - 82

Scott Norwood - 74

Abrantes - 70

Doug B - 67

Tides of War - 61

Yankee23Fan - 59

Wikkidpissah - 58

Tirnan - 54

*Abrantes missing points for Philosophical/Political Idea
Does these rankings include the "Album" Situation?
I am getting killed by the 8th round pick of "The Nutcracker", and The 11th round Phantom of the Opera selection (an admittedly poor selection, way to early, but this is my first draft of this sort) In my defense, I did not realize that the top Musical and Ballet selections would be judged as inferior to the top plays.

I hope there are some Categories coming that will help me rebound - tho I see that Album Guy has yet to wreak his havoc on me

 
I also was hoping and really expected a better Doc score - and God knows I love the game of Basketball, but thought there were better ones than Hoop Dreams

 
Current Total Points from Judges Rankings

Categories Ranked: Political Documents, Documentaries, Plays, Philosophical/Political Ideas

BobbyLayne - 116

Genedoc - 115

Fennis/Krista - 108

Timschochet - 108

Uncle Humuna - 104

Bob Lee Swagger - 100

Postradamus - 94

El Floppo - 90

MisfitBlondes - 89

Team CIA - 87

Rodg - 84

DC Thunder - 83

Thatguy - 82

Scott Norwood - 74

Abrantes - 70

Doug B - 67

Tides of War - 61

Yankee23Fan - 59

Wikkidpissah - 58

Tirnan - 54

*Abrantes missing points for Philosophical/Political Idea
Does these rankings include the "Album" Situation?
I am getting killed by the 8th round pick of "The Nutcracker", and The 11th round Phantom of the Opera selection (an admittedly poor selection, way to early, but this is my first draft of this sort) In my defense, I did not realize that the top Musical and Ballet selections would be judged as inferior to the top plays.

I hope there are some Categories coming that will help me rebound - tho I see that Album Guy has yet to wreak his havoc on me
:homer: You have the Nutcracker as a Wildcard so it isn't factored into these rankings. Or did you mean that you missed other value there that you should have taken instead?

 
Current Total Points from Judges Rankings

Categories Ranked: Political Documents, Documentaries, Plays, Philosophical/Political Ideas

BobbyLayne - 116

Genedoc - 115

Fennis/Krista - 108

Timschochet - 108

Uncle Humuna - 104

Bob Lee Swagger - 100

Postradamus - 94

El Floppo - 90

MisfitBlondes - 89

Team CIA - 87

Rodg - 84

DC Thunder - 83

Thatguy - 82

Scott Norwood - 74

Abrantes - 70

Doug B - 67

Tides of War - 61

Yankee23Fan - 59

Wikkidpissah - 58

Tirnan - 54

*Abrantes missing points for Philosophical/Political Idea
Does these rankings include the "Album" Situation?
I am getting killed by the 8th round pick of "The Nutcracker", and The 11th round Phantom of the Opera selection (an admittedly poor selection, way to early, but this is my first draft of this sort) In my defense, I did not realize that the top Musical and Ballet selections would be judged as inferior to the top plays.

I hope there are some Categories coming that will help me rebound - tho I see that Album Guy has yet to wreak his havoc on me
:homer: You have the Nutcracker as a Wildcard so it isn't factored into these rankings. Or did you mean that you missed other value there that you should have taken instead?
Had I been a little more wise or savvy to this process, I would have waited for "The Nutcracker"When everyone headed to the ancient stuff, I decided to focus on more modern times, also with the idea that attempting to draft with a theme would be judges a bit differently. It seems not - I decided to focus as much as I could on the last two centuries, on Southern and Civil Rights influences.

After I felt it would not be judged equally with compositions of the masters, decided to move it to WC status.

 
Another interesting thing to look at, here are the totals for the Play category.....

Genedoc/Bonzai - 75

Bob Lee Swagger - 70

BobbyLayne - 65

Team CIA - 64

Rodg - 64

Timschochet - 63

Uncle Humuna - 62

Postradamus - 61

Abrantes - 54

Fennis/Krista - 53

El Floppo - 52

MisfitBlondes/Jamyp - 52

Thatguy - 51

DC Thunder - 43

Scott Norwood - 40

Doug B - 39

Wikkidpissah/Big Rocks - 35

Tides of War - 33

Tirnan - 33

Yankee23Fan - 24

Like Tim said, Genedoc knocked it out of the park, but BLS deserves a shout out for his fine job in this cat as well. :homer:

ETA: Included Bonzai and Big Rocks in the teams to give them their due credit.

ETA2: And jamyp as well.....

 
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I also was hoping and really expected a better Doc score - and God knows I love the game of Basketball, but thought there were better ones than Hoop Dreams
Hoop Dreams is considered not only the best documentary ever by many film critics, it's also considered to be one of the best films ever, period. Roger Ebert called it the best film from the 1990's (I disagree with this.) I loved this movie and found it completely mezmerizing, but my opinion alone would not have been enough to give this film a 20. I did so because the vast majority of "expert" opinion agreed with my own analysis.The film actually focuses very little on basketball: just a few minutes in the entire movie show the two kids actually playing, and there is almost no practice time ever displayed.

 
Thanks for finishing up for me fellas and Krista... I'm sure you all made better picks than I'd have made.

Glad to see Sonnet 18 getting some love. Given how many sonnets The Bard wrote, I wasn't sure how it would fare, even if it is the most famous.

 
Another interesting thing to look at, here are the totals for the Play category.....Genedoc/Bonzai - 75Bob Lee Swagger - 70BobbyLayne - 65Team CIA - 64Rodg - 64Timschochet - 63Uncle Humuna - 62Postradamus - 61Abrantes - 54Fennis/Krista - 53El Floppo - 52MisfitBlondes/Jamyp - 52Thatguy - 51DC Thunder - 43Scott Norwood - 40Doug B - 39Wikkidpissah/Big Rocks - 35Tides of War - 33Tirnan - 33Yankee23Fan - 24Like Tim said, Genedoc knocked it out of the park, but BLS deserves a shout out for his fine job in this cat as well. :thumbup:ETA: Included Bonzai and Big Rocks in the teams to give them their due credit.ETA2: And jamyp as well.....
If all 5 of my picls had been judged on even turf (i.e. if Tim had seen or read The Misanthrope and Life is a Dream),I would have given them a run for their money:King Lear (20)Electra (16)Prometheus Bound (16)The Misanthrope (5)Life is a Dream (5):wah:
 
Non Fiction 5 Points

Battle Cry of Freedom

The Civil War: A Narrative

The Second World War

The Death and Life of Great American Cities

The two civil war histories are always at the top of everyone's list. I've read both, loved both. It's hard to choose between them. Foote is more complete. People always accuse him of writing from a Southern perspective, but I think he's very fair, especially to Grant. His narrative reads like a novel. MacPhearson is more concise, and he spends time explaining the factors that led up to the war as well. In the end, I have to give Foote the slight edge because of the drama of his battle descriptions, which are unmatched for me in historical writing.

Winston Churchill is my favorite historical figure and his 6 volume work is nothing short of magnificent. Of course, he shapes events so that he is the ultimate hero, without flaws, but that's his perogative; he won, so he can get away with it. Still, it's interesting to read his first volume, The Gathering Storm and compare it to William Manchester's great biographical work The Last Lion Volume 2, which tends to be a bit more objective.

Death and Life might be the most influential urban planning book ever written, and I wish I could rank it higher.

 
One of my favorite Churchill quotes from The Gathering Storm: He's describing how the Oxford Student Union in 1933 passed a pacifist resolution in 1933, which declared that it would in no circumstances "fight for King and Country". He rips them for being "foolish" and "of a leftist mindset" and then writes:

Little did they know then that this generation would prove to be the finest and bravest ever in the history of the British Isles.

You gotta love Churchill!

 
Nonfiction 6 Points

Oxford English Dictionary

Roget’s Thesaurus

World Almanac

The Encyclopedia Britannica

Poor Richard’s Almanack

I wasn't sure how to rank these against each other, so I put most of these works here. There are two exceptions which are more notable in terms of history and so deserve more recognition. All of these works are incredibly important, though the Internet has probably caused my generation to be the last to have used them on a regular basis. Ben Franklin's book deserves special mention here because it's so brilliant.

 
Nonfiction 7 Points

The Kama Sutra

Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglas

Up From Slavery

The Autobiography of Malcolm X

A Dictionary of The English Language

I placed the three books about the African-American experience here. All of these are important to American history, but not greatly to world history. Probably the least important of these in historical terms is the Alex Haley work, but it is also the most read today.

The Kama Sutra is certainly a famous book, impossible to rank fairly. Who knows how influential it is? Those positions look difficult.

I ranked Johnson's work slightly higher than the 6 points because it was first and more influential. More on this later.

 
Nonfiction 8 Points

The Everlasting Man

The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

The Book of Five Rings

The Four Books of Architecture

J’Accuse

The Abolition of Man

It's getting increasingly harder to do this.

The first two books here are considered among the greatest histories ever written. Chesterson's work is more of an intellectual and spiritual study, while Gibbon set the stage for all modern works of historical scholarship.

The Book of Five Rings is a legendary Japanese work on martial arts and military strategy. I Quattro Libri dell'Architettura could be the most important book on building ever written. J'Accuse is a great cry for justice which helped to revolutionize the European courts. Finally, The Abolition of Man is CS Lewis' finest work and widely considered one of the great intellectual and spiritual books of the last century.

 
I also was hoping and really expected a better Doc score - and God knows I love the game of Basketball, but thought there were better ones than Hoop Dreams
Hoop Dreams is considered not only the best documentary ever by many film critics, it's also considered to be one of the best films ever, period. Roger Ebert called it the best film from the 1990's (I disagree with this.) I loved this movie and found it completely mezmerizing, but my opinion alone would not have been enough to give this film a 20. I did so because the vast majority of "expert" opinion agreed with my own analysis.The film actually focuses very little on basketball: just a few minutes in the entire movie show the two kids actually playing, and there is almost no practice time ever displayed.
I agree with what you say here, but to be fair..................According to the Album Judge, critics opinions do not matter, if they do not coincide with your own :lmao:

 
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9 Points

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Nature

The Kingdom of God Is Within You

The Double Helix

The Gulag Archipelago

The first book listed here is responsible for the success of Lakers coach Phil Jackson. Nufced.

Nature is the essential work of Trancendentalism. All the Unitarian that lies within me urges me to rank this higher.

Tolstoy's work is going to be a problem for me, because I am ranking Civil Disobedience higher. Both books are supposed to have a similar influential effect on very important historical figures, but the Thoreau work is more widely read today.

The Double Helix is supposed to be controversial. Otherwise it might deserve higher ranking. I'm not really up on this fight about who really discovered DNA and what this fight is exactly all about.

At first, I did not want to rank The Gulag quite this high, seeing it as personal history along the lines of Night. But many people claim this book helped bring about the end of the Soviet Union. I have a feeling this is revisionist history, but oh well.

 
Nonfiction 7 Points

The Kama Sutra

Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglas

Up From Slavery

The Autobiography of Malcolm X

A Dictionary of The English Language

I placed the three books about the African-American experience here. All of these are important to American history, but not greatly to world history. Probably the least important of these in historical terms is the Alex Haley work, but it is also the most read today.

The Kama Sutra is certainly a famous book, impossible to rank fairly. Who knows how influential it is? Those positions look difficult.

I ranked Johnson's work slightly higher than the 6 points because it was first and more influential. More on this later.
I wish you had specified more clearly that older works would score higherIf scoring is dependent on how it is influenced things over time, then it becomes better to draft older works, not based on quality, but on the fact they have had longer to "influence"

If something is great, it should stand on its own merit

To lump sum all 3 works because they deal with "the African-American experience here" is absurd.

 
Nonfiction 10 Points

Walden Pond

History of the Pelopponesian War

Codex Leicester

The Road To Serfdom

Discourse on the First Ten Books of Titius Livius

I wish more people in power would read F.A. Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.

All of these are very important and influential works. The Da Vinci is really strange but brilliant.

 
Nonfiction 7 Points

The Kama Sutra

Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglas

Up From Slavery

The Autobiography of Malcolm X

A Dictionary of The English Language

I placed the three books about the African-American experience here. All of these are important to American history, but not greatly to world history. Probably the least important of these in historical terms is the Alex Haley work, but it is also the most read today.

The Kama Sutra is certainly a famous book, impossible to rank fairly. Who knows how influential it is? Those positions look difficult.

I ranked Johnson's work slightly higher than the 6 points because it was first and more influential. More on this later.
I wish you had specified more clearly that older works would score higherIf scoring is dependent on how it is influenced things over time, then it becomes better to draft older works, not based on quality, but on the fact they have had longer to "influence"

If something is great, it should stand on its own merit

To lump sum all 3 works because they deal with "the African-American experience here" is absurd.
I kind of agree with your points on this one, but although I know you hate to lose, you are taking this waaaaay to seriously. Although there is judging, just remember we are all winners here, well... except for Floppo, he's not. No matter what, I promise you will still get your PARTICIPANT trophy.

 
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Current Total Points from Judges Rankings

Categories Ranked: Political Documents, Documentaries, Plays, Philosophical/Political Ideas

BobbyLayne - 116

Genedoc - 115

Fennis/Krista - 108

Timschochet - 108

Uncle Humuna - 104

Bob Lee Swagger - 100

Postradamus - 94

El Floppo - 90

MisfitBlondes - 89

Team CIA - 87

Rodg - 84

DC Thunder - 83

Thatguy - 82

Scott Norwood - 74

Abrantes - 70

Doug B - 67

Tides of War - 61

Yankee23Fan - 59

Wikkidpissah - 58

Tirnan - 54

*Abrantes missing points for Philosophical/Political Idea
Ooooooo, look at the big brain on BobbyLayne!
Cool, 8 point lead for 2nd (Genedoc and Bonzai must be keeping it close for Yankee's bookie ring).I'm feeling winded already...you guys will be passing me on the next lap.

 
I wish you had specified more clearly that older works would score higherIf scoring is dependent on how it is influenced things over time, then it becomes better to draft older works, not based on quality, but on the fact they have had longer to "influence"If something is great, it should stand on its own meritTo lump sum all 3 works because they deal with "the African-American experience here" is absurd.
That's not what I wrote. Just because something is old does not make it more influential, but I agree it certainly helps. Am I supposed to rank a book that is less influential over something because it's more influential?As far as the three books you mentioned, they are important to American history, and extremely important to African-Americans. But I can't give them greater importance in terms of world history, sorry.
 
rodg12 - why don't you slide 20 of my points over to ToW.

He hates to lose and I'm apathetic, so thats winner winner chicken dinner all the way around.

:thumbup:

Make it 30.

 
9 Points

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Nature

The Kingdom of God Is Within You

The Double Helix

The Gulag Archipelago

The first book listed here is responsible for the success of Lakers coach Phil Jackson. Nufced.

Nature is the essential work of Trancendentalism. All the Unitarian that lies within me urges me to rank this higher.

Tolstoy's work is going to be a problem for me, because I am ranking Civil Disobedience higher. Both books are supposed to have a similar influential effect on very important historical figures, but the Thoreau work is more widely read today.

The Double Helix is supposed to be controversial. Otherwise it might deserve higher ranking. I'm not really up on this fight about who really discovered DNA and what this fight is exactly all about.

At first, I did not want to rank The Gulag quite this high, seeing it as personal history along the lines of Night. But many people claim this book helped bring about the end of the Soviet Union. I have a feeling this is revisionist history, but oh well.
The Bolded is BSMaybe Zen reading and Dope smoking is part of his life, but I think Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, etc have more to do with that success

To rate that book over some lower rated works, based on MaryJane Phil and his teams, is incredibly absurd

 
One more doc I wanted to recommend as a personal favorite--maybe couldn't have rated it way high but it is a perfect movie IMO: Spellbound. More genuine suspense than I can remember in just about any movie, whether doc or fiction, and I laughed, I cried, etc. Also a perfect family movie.
:goodposting: That one is terrific.

Krista4 - help me out here, having a senior moment. What was the doc about the crossword puzzle championship? I went to the screening (might have been Tribeca FF, not sure), and the director was there, along with Will Short from NPR (NYT crossword puzzle editor, also on Weekend Edition). That was another great off the wall subject doc.

 
I wish you had specified more clearly that older works would score higherIf scoring is dependent on how it is influenced things over time, then it becomes better to draft older works, not based on quality, but on the fact they have had longer to "influence"If something is great, it should stand on its own meritTo lump sum all 3 works because they deal with "the African-American experience here" is absurd.
That's not what I wrote. Just because something is old does not make it more influential, but I agree it certainly helps. Am I supposed to rank a book that is less influential over something because it's more influential?As far as the three books you mentioned, they are important to American history, and extremely important to African-Americans. But I can't give them greater importance in terms of world history, sorry.
All I am saying is that by nature, the older something is, the more oppurtinty it has to create influence - if it is of high qualityAnd I maintain that lumping the three AA works in the same tier equates to compartmentalization, and a touch of laziness
 
Nonfiction 11 Points

Silent Spring

Common Sense

The Jewish State

Book of The Dead

The Education of Henry Adams

In light of Tides' recent criticism, I want to point out that The Book of the Dead which I believe is the oldest book here. But since few people practice the ancient Egyptian religion today, it is not going to be ranked any higher.

I also want to point out the The Education of Henry Adams is here because it's a superlative work, considered the best of nonfiction of the 20th century. I agree with Tides that great work should stand on its own merit. I just disagree with his specific complaints.

The other three works here are all highly influential and contributed to great movements: The independence of the American colonies, Zionism, and environmentalism. But in all three cases, the books represented the presentation of ideas which were growing and existed prior to their publication. This causes me to rank them below those books where someone makes a crucial discovery and then publishes the results, that discovery being revealed because of the publication. Hope this makes sense.

 
9 Points

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Nature

The Kingdom of God Is Within You

The Double Helix

The Gulag Archipelago

The first book listed here is responsible for the success of Lakers coach Phil Jackson. Nufced.

Nature is the essential work of Trancendentalism. All the Unitarian that lies within me urges me to rank this higher.

Tolstoy's work is going to be a problem for me, because I am ranking Civil Disobedience higher. Both books are supposed to have a similar influential effect on very important historical figures, but the Thoreau work is more widely read today.

The Double Helix is supposed to be controversial. Otherwise it might deserve higher ranking. I'm not really up on this fight about who really discovered DNA and what this fight is exactly all about.

At first, I did not want to rank The Gulag quite this high, seeing it as personal history along the lines of Night. But many people claim this book helped bring about the end of the Soviet Union. I have a feeling this is revisionist history, but oh well.
The Bolded is BSMaybe Zen reading and Dope smoking is part of his life, but I think Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, etc have more to do with that success

To rate that book over some lower rated works, based on MaryJane Phil and his teams, is incredibly absurd
Here you go, pard.Click here

 
9 Points

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Nature

The Kingdom of God Is Within You

The Double Helix

The Gulag Archipelago

The first book listed here is responsible for the success of Lakers coach Phil Jackson. Nufced.

Nature is the essential work of Trancendentalism. All the Unitarian that lies within me urges me to rank this higher.

Tolstoy's work is going to be a problem for me, because I am ranking Civil Disobedience higher. Both books are supposed to have a similar influential effect on very important historical figures, but the Thoreau work is more widely read today.

The Double Helix is supposed to be controversial. Otherwise it might deserve higher ranking. I'm not really up on this fight about who really discovered DNA and what this fight is exactly all about.

At first, I did not want to rank The Gulag quite this high, seeing it as personal history along the lines of Night. But many people claim this book helped bring about the end of the Soviet Union. I have a feeling this is revisionist history, but oh well.
The Bolded is BSMaybe Zen reading and Dope smoking is part of his life, but I think Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, etc have more to do with that success

To rate that book over some lower rated works, based on MaryJane Phil and his teams, is incredibly absurd
I was being facetious here. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is highly influential and affected millions of readers.
 
Nonfiction 6 Points

Oxford English Dictionary

Roget’s Thesaurus

World Almanac

The Encyclopedia Britannica

Poor Richard’s Almanack

I wasn't sure how to rank these against each other, so I put most of these works here. There are two exceptions which are more notable in terms of history and so deserve more recognition. All of these works are incredibly important, though the Internet has probably caused my generation to be the last to have used them on a regular basis. Ben Franklin's book deserves special mention here because it's so brilliant.
In the Almanack is so "brilliant", it deserves more than a measly 6 points. It simply paved the way for newspapers and journalism and "America" as it came to be known. It was published in Philadelphia when almost all important literature and reading material came from England or Boston. All Americans knew of Franklin and his Almanack. And you give it 6 points...Sheesh.....mMaybe I'll havbe to become your second arch-nemesis afterall...

 
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Nonfiction 7 Points

The Kama Sutra

Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglas

Up From Slavery

The Autobiography of Malcolm X

A Dictionary of The English Language

I placed the three books about the African-American experience here. All of these are important to American history, but not greatly to world history. Probably the least important of these in historical terms is the Alex Haley work, but it is also the most read today.

The Kama Sutra is certainly a famous book, impossible to rank fairly. Who knows how influential it is? Those positions look difficult.

I ranked Johnson's work slightly higher than the 6 points because it was first and more influential. More on this later.
I wish you had specified more clearly that older works would score higherIf scoring is dependent on how it is influenced things over time, then it becomes better to draft older works, not based on quality, but on the fact they have had longer to "influence"

If something is great, it should stand on its own merit

To lump sum all 3 works because they deal with "the African-American experience here" is absurd.
I kind of agree with your points on this one, but although I know you hate to lose, you are taking this waaaaay to seriously. Although there is judging, just remember we are all winners here, well... except for Floppo, he's not. No matter what, I promise you will still get your PARTICIPANT trophy.
I despise losingOne thing I have noticed is that one judge may apply a certain criteria to his rankings, while another may bottom shelf a pick because he cares not about the same criteria

If Oliver Humanzee moves to Memphis, I will be there for the Ole Miss - Alabama thrashing this fall.

Maybe we can grab some Rendezous Ribs and brews, and discuss musical :goodposting: inclinations further :banned:

 
Nonfiction 6 Points

Oxford English Dictionary

Roget’s Thesaurus

World Almanac

The Encyclopedia Britannica

Poor Richard’s Almanack

I wasn't sure how to rank these against each other, so I put most of these works here. There are two exceptions which are more notable in terms of history and so deserve more recognition. All of these works are incredibly important, though the Internet has probably caused my generation to be the last to have used them on a regular basis. Ben Franklin's book deserves special mention here because it's so brilliant.
In the Almanack is so "brilliant", it deserves more than a measly 6 points. It simply paved the way for newspapers and journalism and "America" as it came to be known. It was published in Philadelphia when almost all important literature and reading material came from England or Boston. All Americans knew of Franklin and his Almanack. And you give it 6 points...Sheesh.....mMaybe I'll havbe to become your second arch-nemesis afterall...
I agree with all this and you're right to hate me.
 

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