***OFFICIAL GUN CONTROL DEBATE*** (1 Viewer)

[SHIZNITTTT]

It will never be a gun problem to some.

Man shoots church members = not a gun problem the shooter was a racist.

Man shoots school children = not a gun problem the shooter had an emotional problem.

Man shoots camera man and reporter = not a gun problem the shooter had mental problems.

The one common core is that they all were able to get guns and do a lot of damage. Did the guns shoot the victims by themselves...NO! But, the guns allowed fringe members, lunatics, and racist to do massive killings. So yeah, guns are part of the problem.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

Not a gun problem what we have in America is too much information problem. We get all the shooting details while they happen. If we would do away with internet, and news reporting the gun problem would also go away.

 

[Koya]

Tim, where I think you and Koya are missing my point on this, is we have to identify where the problem lies, before we create this trillion dollar government program, only to find out, "Crap, people are still shooting one another at the same rate."

See if you follow me. So let's say we have 11,500 gun homicides. Of this we learn 10,000 of them are committed by gang bangers or other such criminals, then creating a national registration-- background checking program is worthless because these weapons were procured illegally and wouldn't have been impacted. Tim, there is where you need to lose this notion that these people are going into stores and getting the owner to wink and waive the background requirement, That's not where these guns are being bought. They are being obtained at street level from other street people (a lot obtained via theft) that are never going to comply with any government regulation.

If we identify this, then we know it is a law enforcement issue and can fashion an appropriate response. This could include more police and police patrols. Enhanced penalties for possession of unregistered firearms. Increased outreach programs to inner city youth about the dangers of firearms. Tightening of borders and other weak spots ie: increased scrutiny of shipping containers where large numbers of guns are received from abroad. Possible increased penalties for gun owners who do not secure their weapons appropriately so they aren't as easily taken in say a burglary.

Or:

Let's say we discover of the 11,500 homicides, the preponderance were committed by lawful gun owners who snapped. Well we can take from that the prevailing issue is a mental health one and we need to approach it with better access to behavior services under insurance plans (we all supposedly have insurance now). This could include opening of more clinics for easier access to mental health care. Encouragement of young people to enter this field to fill the need for professionals and yes, some form of psychological evaluation needed to obtain a firearm in the first place.

But again no trillion dollar background checking program created that would have zero impact on the problem. Policy created out of fear is not good policy. How many times do we have to go down that road in this country? I am not advocating doing nothing. I am advocating being smart and getting the facts so the solution addresses the problem.

I am not going to change anyone's mind I get it, Time to go post in the cat thread I guess....

I'll get to this later, appreciate the thought out response.

One point to make - I am not supporting any gov't program at this point. I do KNOW we need some system, however / whomever implements it, which ensures that the only people who own / have access to guns can demonstrate their responsible ownership thereof - some training, testing, recording (which yes, I know strikes at the heart of gov't knowing who has guns, and until now I bought into that. But at this moment, enough's enough) and registration.

FWIW, just because someone needs to "do" whatever the solution is, the NYS DMV is maybe an ironic comparison. DMV's SUCK, right? Long lines, never getting the right answer, no one answering calls...

The last 10 years have seen NY's DMV go to a really user friendly, predictable experience with options to walk in, set an appt, contract business online. If Gun safety training, testing and registration was done like that, believe it or not, it should be pretty damn smooth. Of course, that's not the likely result, hence the rub.

 

[netnalp]

Spoke too soon:

HR 378, dubbed the Responsible Body Armor Possession Act, would make it illegal for civilians to own “enhanced body armor” such as helmets, shields or armor plates that meet or exceed Type III protection. The bill would exempt law enforcement officers and other government officials.

The co-sponsors of the bill believe body armor in the hands of private citizens to be so dangerous that they intend to impose a 10 year federal prison sentence on those found to be in possession of the contraband.The new law would still allow Americans to own Type I and Type II protection, which are designed to stop calibers ranging from .22 caliber to .357 Magnum respectively. Type III body armor is designed to stop higher velocity hand gun rounds like a high-velocity 9mm or .44 magnum and rifle rounds like the AK-47′s 7.62x39mm. Type IV, often reserved for special law enforcement response teams, is capable of stopping even armor piercing rounds from rifles.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now if they want to ban Type III body armor for gun owners but make it legal for those that don't own guns, I could support that. The body armor sellers could do a body armor background check.

 

[Koya]

I was previously a pro-gun guy that has flipped almost completely the last decade or so. While I realize that what I'd like to see in terms of gun control will never happen in this country, it really confounds me the way in which some will fight to ensure that absolutely nothing at all is done. It boggles my mind that people think that having to pass an aptitude test to drive a car is common sense but having to do the same to own a gun is heresy.

Going through this as we speak.

The fact that the gun lobby is so utterly selfish as to not give ANYthing, almost on principle to be right and not give ANY quarter, as opposed to being a responsible and patriotic citizen - I'm sadly at a place where infringing on the freedom of gun ownership, even if we step a little too far, HAS to be better than what the gun owner rights at all costs advocates have done.

Let's be honest, the gun advocates have WON. They have won for DECADES. And we have DECADES of proof that has resulted in as many gun deaths as car deaths (which, in real life, demonstrates how MAJOR a problem guns are! thats a huge number that hurts your cause) and a mass shooting a day.

If anyone asks for damn statistics or claims the status quo and lack of regulation works, honestly it's hard not to just say #### you. Not on a personal level, but seriously, what do we need to have people just admit the current situation is abhorrent ?

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Not a gun problem what we have in America is too much information problem. We get all the shooting details while they happen. If we would do away with internet, and news reporting the gun problem would also go away.

If that is a shot at my mentioning the internet and media effect, I think that is wrong-headed.

 

[timschochet]

I was previously a pro-gun guy that has flipped almost completely the last decade or so. While I realize that what I'd like to see in terms of gun control will never happen in this country, it really confounds me the way in which some will fight to ensure that absolutely nothing at all is done. It boggles my mind that people think that having to pass an aptitude test to drive a car is common sense but having to do the same to own a gun is heresy.

Going through this as we speak.

The fact that the gun lobby is so utterly selfish as to not give ANYthing, almost on principle to be right and not give ANY quarter, as opposed to being a responsible and patriotic citizen - I'm sadly at a place where infringing on the freedom of gun ownership, even if we step a little too far, HAS to be better than what the gun owner rights at all costs advocates have done.

Let's be honest, the gun advocates have WON. They have won for DECADES. And we have DECADES of proof that has resulted in as many gun deaths as car deaths (which, in real life, demonstrates how MAJOR a problem guns are! thats a huge number that hurts your cause) and a mass shooting a day.

If anyone asks for damn statistics or claims the status quo and lack of regulation works, honestly it's hard not to just say #### you. Not on a personal level, but seriously, what do we need to have people just admit the current situation is abhorrent ?

I wouldn't say they're selfish. It's just that they believe in a slippery slope, and they can't give in an inch lest it all fall apart.

I've been criticized in the past for assigning ignoble motives to those who disagree with me. It's a justifiable critique. I do it way too often, and I'm vowing to stop. It's not a good trait.

With the exception of explicit racists and bigots, I'd like to think that most people in this country that express political viewpoints have good intentions.

 

[whoknew]

I was previously a pro-gun guy that has flipped almost completely the last decade or so. While I realize that what I'd like to see in terms of gun control will never happen in this country, it really confounds me the way in which some will fight to ensure that absolutely nothing at all is done. It boggles my mind that people think that having to pass an aptitude test to drive a car is common sense but having to do the same to own a gun is heresy.

Going through this as we speak.

The fact that the gun lobby is so utterly selfish as to not give ANYthing, almost on principle to be right and not give ANY quarter, as opposed to being a responsible and patriotic citizen - I'm sadly at a place where infringing on the freedom of gun ownership, even if we step a little too far, HAS to be better than what the gun owner rights at all costs advocates have done.

Let's be honest, the gun advocates have WON. They have won for DECADES. And we have DECADES of proof that has resulted in as many gun deaths as car deaths (which, in real life, demonstrates how MAJOR a problem guns are! thats a huge number that hurts your cause) and a mass shooting a day.

If anyone asks for damn statistics or claims the status quo and lack of regulation works, honestly it's hard not to just say #### you. Not on a personal level, but seriously, what do we need to have people just admit the current situation is abhorrent ?

I wouldn't say they're selfish. It's just that they believe in a slippery slope, and they can't give in an inch lest it all fall apart.

I've been criticized in the past for assigning ignoble motives to those who disagree with me. It's a justifiable critique. I do it way too often, and I'm vowing to stop. It's not a good trait.

With the exception of explicit racists and bigots, I'd like to think that most people in this country that express political viewpoints have good intentions.

That may be true for the rank and file redneck in Alabama who is worried the gov't will take his guns. But I highly doubt that same motivation applies to the bigwigs in the NRA and I'm pretty certain it doesn't apply to the politicians who are funded by the NRA. Both of these groups are motivated by much more selfish reasons.

 

[Rayderr]

Man shoots church members = not a gun problem the shooter was a racist.

Man shoots school children = not a gun problem the shooter had an emotional problem.

Man shoots camera man and reporter = not a gun problem the shooter had mental problems.

Not to nit pick, but in case #1, FBI dropped the ball and allowed Dylan to get the gun when he shouldn't have. What good are background checks if the FBI can't conduct them properly? #2 Lanza stole the guns. #3 probably could've only been prevented if the tv station had filed charges against him. But they didn't. And nothing showed up on his background check to cause him to be denied a gun. Sadly not much you can do about that.

Remember the movie theater shooter down in Louisiana? That of course sparked a big huge gun debate. "We need to ban assault weapons!" "No more gun show and private sales!" "No more high capacity magazines!" "Background checks for everyone!!" Then the detail emerged. The shooter bought the gun legally from a licensed fire arm dealer after passing a bacckground check. The gun was not an assault weapon and did not have a high capacity magazine.

So I asked the people in that thread How they realistically (banning all guns is not realistic) how they would've prevented that shooting. Suddenly the anti-gun crowd went quiet and waited for the next big event so they could shout at their lungs that guns and all of their owners are the scourge of the earth and must be done away with.

Here's the reality. Are some shootings preventable? Sure. I frequently point out that Columbine, Loughner, VT were all preventable (Columbine kids had police called on them setting off explosives in a field, Loughner had made death threats against Giffords and the sheriff brushed them off, VT shooter was legally found to be a danger to himself and others.) But there's going to be shootings that just aren't realistically preventable. It sucks, but that's the real world. The videographer and reporter shooting is tragic. But it's one of those incidents that would've happened short of the anti-gun crowd rubbing a magic lamp and then telling the genie that pops out to disintegrate all guns in the US.

 

[Koya]

I was previously a pro-gun guy that has flipped almost completely the last decade or so. While I realize that what I'd like to see in terms of gun control will never happen in this country, it really confounds me the way in which some will fight to ensure that absolutely nothing at all is done. It boggles my mind that people think that having to pass an aptitude test to drive a car is common sense but having to do the same to own a gun is heresy.

Going through this as we speak.

The fact that the gun lobby is so utterly selfish as to not give ANYthing, almost on principle to be right and not give ANY quarter, as opposed to being a responsible and patriotic citizen - I'm sadly at a place where infringing on the freedom of gun ownership, even if we step a little too far, HAS to be better than what the gun owner rights at all costs advocates have done.

Let's be honest, the gun advocates have WON. They have won for DECADES. And we have DECADES of proof that has resulted in as many gun deaths as car deaths (which, in real life, demonstrates how MAJOR a problem guns are! thats a huge number that hurts your cause) and a mass shooting a day.

If anyone asks for damn statistics or claims the status quo and lack of regulation works, honestly it's hard not to just say #### you. Not on a personal level, but seriously, what do we need to have people just admit the current situation is abhorrent ?

I wouldn't say they're selfish. It's just that they believe in a slippery slope, and they can't give in an inch lest it all fall apart.

I've been criticized in the past for assigning ignoble motives to those who disagree with me. It's a justifiable critique. I do it way too often, and I'm vowing to stop. It's not a good trait.

With the exception of explicit racists and bigots, I'd like to think that most people in this country that express political viewpoints have good intentions.

I understand the inherent concerns about imbuing the actions of others with the motives behind them.

My comment is not based upon what I think their motives may or may not be. My comment is based on the decades of actions, chosen words, battle's they have fought, their apparent lack of compassion regarding victims...

They are selfish. Don't tell me the NRA is fighting for "constitutional rights" at this point. They are fighting for their rights to have arms no matter what. The bigger the better. The less restriction the better. And it flies in the face of finding a constitutionally compatible solution that actually cares about what is happening to so many in this country.

Like I said, I've had enough. While I've always seen the NRA for the shallow and sad thing they are, as an organization, I also have really gone against the grain of most people I know by truly believing in the right to arms. But it's time to stand up, open the window and lean your head out to scream - We are not going to take it, anymore! The lack of any legitimate solution provided by the right, the NRA, etc, by DEFAULT goes to the Dem's solutions because they are better than status quo, which is apparently the only acceptable end game for the gun lobby.

I don't like it either, but I'd rather the Dems overstep (can always correct via legislation in the future) and DO SOMETHING rather than worry about your talking point slippery slope to deny any relief, to prevent any more from becoming victims, to actually try and exacerbate the problem with more guns and LESS regulation.

How is that not selfish? And certainly seems unpatriotic - it's flat hurting our country and nation. Ugh.

 

[ATC1]

I was previously a pro-gun guy that has flipped almost completely the last decade or so. While I realize that what I'd like to see in terms of gun control will never happen in this country, it really confounds me the way in which some will fight to ensure that absolutely nothing at all is done. It boggles my mind that people think that having to pass an aptitude test to drive a car is common sense but having to do the same to own a gun is heresy.

Going through this as we speak.

The fact that the gun lobby is so utterly selfish as to not give ANYthing, almost on principle to be right and not give ANY quarter, as opposed to being a responsible and patriotic citizen - I'm sadly at a place where infringing on the freedom of gun ownership, even if we step a little too far, HAS to be better than what the gun owner rights at all costs advocates have done.

Let's be honest, the gun advocates have WON. They have won for DECADES. And we have DECADES of proof that has resulted in as many gun deaths as car deaths (which, in real life, demonstrates how MAJOR a problem guns are! thats a huge number that hurts your cause) and a mass shooting a day.

If anyone asks for damn statistics or claims the status quo and lack of regulation works, honestly it's hard not to just say #### you. Not on a personal level, but seriously, what do we need to have people just admit the current situation is abhorrent ?

How is this not one in the same? I s[SIZE=11pt]ympathize. I really do. But if you look just have a kneejerk reaction to the horrific carnage and don't take stats into account, how can you expect the NRA to give any? [/SIZE]

 

[Kasparov]

This is an interesting chart. It counts total murders, not just murders by guns, but after peaking in the 70's and 80's our murder rate is now down to 1950's levels. Pretty impressive considering gun ownership has supposedly been increasing all that time. Lot harder to say guns are the problem.

Except that it hasn't.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

This is an interesting chart. It counts total murders, not just murders by guns, but after peaking in the 70's and 80's our murder rate is now down to 1950's levels. Pretty impressive considering gun ownership has supposedly been increasing all that time. Lot harder to say guns are the problem.

Except that it hasn't.

You're right. Gun ownership has been relatively steady and perhaps even fallen a little in terms of % of the population self-reporting that they own guns. But the number of guns has increased massively.

 

[Rayderr]

This is an interesting chart. It counts total murders, not just murders by guns, but after peaking in the 70's and 80's our murder rate is now down to 1950's levels. Pretty impressive considering gun ownership has supposedly been increasing all that time. Lot harder to say guns are the problem.

Except that it hasn't.

murder rate per 100k, 4.6 in 1950. murder rate in 2013, 4.5. Your move Kasparov.

 

[Kasparov]

This is an interesting chart. It counts total murders, not just murders by guns, but after peaking in the 70's and 80's our murder rate is now down to 1950's levels. Pretty impressive considering gun ownership has supposedly been increasing all that time. Lot harder to say guns are the problem.

Except that it hasn't.

murder rate per 100k, 4.6 in 1950. murder rate in 2013, 4.5. Your move Kasparov.

Way to pluck out two distant stats. Try these:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

https://gssdataexplorer.norc.org/variables/679/vshow

http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/section-3-gun-ownership-trends-and-demographics/

(the GSS link might not work directly, but if you enter it in address bar and hit enter it should take you there.)

 

[Rayderr]

This is an interesting chart. It counts total murders, not just murders by guns, but after peaking in the 70's and 80's our murder rate is now down to 1950's levels. Pretty impressive considering gun ownership has supposedly been increasing all that time. Lot harder to say guns are the problem.

Except that it hasn't.

You're right. Gun ownership has been relatively steady and perhaps even fallen a little in terms of % of the population self-reporting that they own guns. But the number of guns has increased massively.

Yeah tim brought this up in a thread a few years ago. Turns out while the overall percentage of households that owned guns had dropped, the number of households with guns had still actually increased.

 

[Rayderr]

This is an interesting chart. It counts total murders, not just murders by guns, but after peaking in the 70's and 80's our murder rate is now down to 1950's levels. Pretty impressive considering gun ownership has supposedly been increasing all that time. Lot harder to say guns are the problem.

Except that it hasn't.

murder rate per 100k, 4.6 in 1950. murder rate in 2013, 4.5. Your move Kasparov.

Way to pluck out two distant stats. Try these:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

https://gssdataexplorer.norc.org/variables/679/vshow

http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/section-3-gun-ownership-trends-and-demographics/

I'll start with the first one. It says the gun ownership rate in 1960 was 49% and 42% in 2013. But here's the thing. US population in 1960 was 180mil. US population in 2013 was 316mil. SO some quick math shows that there were about 88.2 million gun owners in 1960. In 2013, 132.7mil own guns. So, um, yeah, gun ownership and number of guns still increasing. Checkmate.

 

[brianj74]

Mass shooting have become the new national pastime.

Sooo glad I don't live in the US.

11,078 gun murders in the US in 2011.

131 in Canada in 2013.

 

[Kasparov]

This is an interesting chart. It counts total murders, not just murders by guns, but after peaking in the 70's and 80's our murder rate is now down to 1950's levels. Pretty impressive considering gun ownership has supposedly been increasing all that time. Lot harder to say guns are the problem.

Except that it hasn't.

murder rate per 100k, 4.6 in 1950. murder rate in 2013, 4.5. Your move Kasparov.

Way to pluck out two distant stats. Try these:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

https://gssdataexplorer.norc.org/variables/679/vshow

http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/section-3-gun-ownership-trends-and-demographics/

I'll start with the first one. It says the gun ownership rate in 1960 was 49% and 42% in 2013. But here's the thing. US population in 1960 was 180mil. US population in 2013 was 316mil. SO some quick math shows that there were about 88.2 million gun owners in 1960. In 2013, 132.7mil own guns. So, um, yeah, gun ownership and number of guns still increasing. Checkmate.

Except your original chart is also based on RATE. So apples to apples....

Your queen is en prise.

 

[Rayderr]

Mass shooting have become the new national pastime.

Sooo glad I don't live in the US.

11,078 gun murders in the US in 2011.

131 in Canada in 2013.

I seem to recall that in Bowling Columbine Michael Moore made a big deal out of the fact the gun ownership rate in Canada is far higher than the US. That would seem to indicate that it's not actually the guns that are the issue.

 

[[icon]]

Mass shooting have become the new national pastime.

Sooo glad I don't live in the US.

11,078 gun murders in the US in 2011.

131 in Canada in 2013.

To be fair, we're pretty happy you don't live here, too

 

[Rayderr]

This is an interesting chart. It counts total murders, not just murders by guns, but after peaking in the 70's and 80's our murder rate is now down to 1950's levels. Pretty impressive considering gun ownership has supposedly been increasing all that time. Lot harder to say guns are the problem.

Except that it hasn't.

murder rate per 100k, 4.6 in 1950. murder rate in 2013, 4.5. Your move Kasparov.

Way to pluck out two distant stats. Try these:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

https://gssdataexplorer.norc.org/variables/679/vshow

http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/section-3-gun-ownership-trends-and-demographics/

I'll start with the first one. It says the gun ownership rate in 1960 was 49% and 42% in 2013. But here's the thing. US population in 1960 was 180mil. US population in 2013 was 316mil. SO some quick math shows that there were about 88.2 million gun owners in 1960. In 2013, 132.7mil own guns. So, um, yeah, gun ownership and number of guns still increasing. Checkmate.

Except your original chart is also based on RATE. So apples to apples....

Your queen is en prise.

but in that case it shows that the rate of gun ownership has no bearing on the murder rate. rate of murders in 1960 was 5.1 Gun ownernship rate at the time was 49%. IN 1972, your chart shows that ownership rate dropped to 43% yet the murder rate jumped to 9.0. In 1994, gun ownership rate peaked at 51%, yet the murder rate was still 9.0. Murder rate reached it's all time high in 1980 when it hit 10.2. Gun ownership rate at the time was 43%. So it seems safe to say that gun ownership rate does not affect murder rate. So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

This is an interesting chart. It counts total murders, not just murders by guns, but after peaking in the 70's and 80's our murder rate is now down to 1950's levels. Pretty impressive considering gun ownership has supposedly been increasing all that time. Lot harder to say guns are the problem.

Except that it hasn't.

murder rate per 100k, 4.6 in 1950. murder rate in 2013, 4.5. Your move Kasparov.

Way to pluck out two distant stats. Try these:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

https://gssdataexplorer.norc.org/variables/679/vshow

http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/section-3-gun-ownership-trends-and-demographics/

I'll start with the first one. It says the gun ownership rate in 1960 was 49% and 42% in 2013. But here's the thing. US population in 1960 was 180mil. US population in 2013 was 316mil. SO some quick math shows that there were about 88.2 million gun owners in 1960. In 2013, 132.7mil own guns. So, um, yeah, gun ownership and number of guns still increasing. Checkmate.

Except your original chart is also based on RATE. So apples to apples....

Your queen is en prise.

but in that case it shows that the rate of gun ownership has no bearing on the murder rate. rate of murders in 1960 was 5.1 Gun ownernship rate at the time was 49%. IN 1972, your chart shows that ownership rate dropped to 43% yet the murder rate jumped to 9.0. In 1994, gun ownership rate peaked at 51%, yet the murder rate was still 9.0. Murder rate reached it's all time high in 1980 when it hit 10.2. Gun ownership rate at the time was 43%. So it seems safe to say that gun ownership rate does not affect murder rate. So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

Correlation doesn't prove causation, but it is very difficult to have causation without correlation.

 

[BowieMercs]

 

[netnalp]

Mass shooting have become the new national pastime.

Sooo glad I don't live in the US.

11,078 gun murders in the US in 2011.

131 in Canada in 2013.

To be fair, we're pretty happy you don't live here, too

That's murders, how many hunting "accidents" are there yearly in Canada?

 

[netnalp]

Mass shooting have become the new national pastime.

Sooo glad I don't live in the US.

11,078 gun murders in the US in 2011.

131 in Canada in 2013.

I seem to recall that in Bowling Columbine Michael Moore made a big deal out of the fact the gun ownership rate in Canada is far higher than the US. That would seem to indicate that it's not actually the guns that are the issue.

Type of gun could be a factor. Also mindset. Are there more hunting rifles? Do Canadians have guns more for hunting or for protection from wildlife than from people in comparison to Americans? Population density is a factor too.

 

[BowieMercs]

Mass shooting have become the new national pastime.

Sooo glad I don't live in the US.

11,078 gun murders in the US in 2011.

131 in Canada in 2013.

Per capita its a wash, isn't it?

 

[Two Deep]

The second amendment made sense when we were using muskets. Tough to have mass killings when it took 5 minutes to reload after one shot.

 

[Kasparov]

So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

The cause of murders isn't guns. Wow.

Good luck out there, Ray.

 

[Bucky86]

The second amendment made sense when we were using muskets. Tough to have mass killings when it took 5 minutes to reload after one shot.

And you know when drones, attack helicopters, spy satellites, tanks, jet fighters, chemical weapons, and nuclear weapons didn't exist.

 

[Rayderr]

So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

The cause of murders isn't guns. Wow.

Good luck out there, Ray.

Most guns aren't used in murders. A good percentage of murders don't use guns.

Blaming guns for murders is like blaming the Quran for for Islamic Terrorism (quick! We need a 7 day waiting period, background check and psych eval for anyone wanting to buy a Quran!!)

 

[Kasparov]

So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

The cause of murders isn't guns. Wow.

Good luck out there, Ray.

Most guns aren't used in murders. A good percentage of murders don't use guns.

Blaming guns for murders is like blaming the Quran for for Islamic Terrorism (quick! We need a 7 day waiting period, background check and psych eval for anyone wanting to buy a Quran!!)

Once again you are completely wrong. Over 2/3rds of all murders involve guns, and that percentage has stayed pretty consistent over the years.

You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html

 

[Rayderr]

So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

The cause of murders isn't guns. Wow.

Good luck out there, Ray.

Most guns aren't used in murders. A good percentage of murders don't use guns.

Blaming guns for murders is like blaming the Quran for for Islamic Terrorism (quick! We need a 7 day waiting period, background check and psych eval for anyone wanting to buy a Quran!!)

Once again you are completely wrong. Over 2/3rds of all murders involve guns, and that percentage has stayed pretty consistent over the years.

You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html

I'd say 1/3 of murders not using guns is a good percentage.

 

[Kasparov]

So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

The cause of murders isn't guns. Wow.

Good luck out there, Ray.

Most guns aren't used in murders. A good percentage of murders don't use guns.

Blaming guns for murders is like blaming the Quran for for Islamic Terrorism (quick! We need a 7 day waiting period, background check and psych eval for anyone wanting to buy a Quran!!)

Once again you are completely wrong. Over 2/3rds of all murders involve guns, and that percentage has stayed pretty consistent over the years.

You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html

I'd say 1/3 of murders not using guns is a good percentage.

OK, WOW again. So I'll skip the part where you admit to being morally bankrupt by thinking those numbers are "good" and skip right to the part where your previous statement was shown to be factually wrong. Go ahead and say it Fonzie, wr... wr....

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

The cause of murders isn't guns. Wow.

Good luck out there, Ray.

Most guns aren't used in murders. A good percentage of murders don't use guns.

Blaming guns for murders is like blaming the Quran for for Islamic Terrorism (quick! We need a 7 day waiting period, background check and psych eval for anyone wanting to buy a Quran!!)

Once again you are completely wrong. Over 2/3rds of all murders involve guns, and that percentage has stayed pretty consistent over the years.

You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html

I'd say 1/3 of murders not using guns is a good percentage.

OK, WOW again. So I'll skip the part where you admit to being morally bankrupt by thinking those numbers are "good" and skip right to the part where your previous statement was shown to be factually wrong. Go ahead and say it Fonzie, wr... wr....

A "good percentage" in this context means a meaningful percentage. It isn't a value judgement. And his use of the term doesn't imply anything about his morals.

And I am straining to see which statement he made is "factually wrong".

 

[Ratbert]

We have a larger problem than a "weapon of choice" issue. If one weapon is banned, another will take its place. We need to find a way to deal with the root causes (i don't think anyone can really think its a single issue) of violent crime.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

We have a larger problem than a "weapon of choice" issue. If one weapon is banned, another will take its place. We need to find a way to deal with the root causes (i don't think anyone can really think its a single issue) of violent crime.

 

[Rayderr]

So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

The cause of murders isn't guns. Wow.

Good luck out there, Ray.

Most guns aren't used in murders. A good percentage of murders don't use guns.

Blaming guns for murders is like blaming the Quran for for Islamic Terrorism (quick! We need a 7 day waiting period, background check and psych eval for anyone wanting to buy a Quran!!)

Once again you are completely wrong. Over 2/3rds of all murders involve guns, and that percentage has stayed pretty consistent over the years.

You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html

I'd say 1/3 of murders not using guns is a good percentage.

OK, WOW again. So I'll skip the part where you admit to being morally bankrupt by thinking those numbers are "good" and skip right to the part where your previous statement was shown to be factually wrong. Go ahead and say it Fonzie, wr... wr....

you're really grasping at straws here dude.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Americans compose 4% of the world's population and own 42% of the world's guns. ool

 

[Doctor Detroit]

So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

The cause of murders isn't guns. Wow.

Good luck out there, Ray.

Most guns aren't used in murders. A good percentage of murders don't use guns.

Yeah, guns are only involved in 68% of murders. So I guess "a good percentage" is 32%.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Americans compose 4% of the world's population and own 42% of the world's guns. ool

I seriously doubt the second number.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Americans compose 4% of the world's population and own 42% of the world's guns. ool

I seriously doubt the second number.

CBS News does, but you believe what you like I suppose. Isn't that the spirit of the entire thread?

 

[RCon]

42% seems pretty high. Are we counting guns owned by governments, or only privately owned guns?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

42% seems pretty high. Are we counting guns owned by governments, or only privately owned guns?

My link

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

Especially in the United States!

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Americans compose 4% of the world's population and own 42% of the world's guns. ool

I seriously doubt the second number.

CBS News does, but you believe what you like I suppose. Isn't that the spirit of the entire thread?

It is just common sense. There are ~100 million AK47s globally and only a tiny fraction of them have come to the US. That is just one of the cheap, mass produced weapons of the last 100 years, albeit the most prolificly produced one.

If you said 42% of the civilian-owned weapons, or threw in some caveat excluding war-torn countries, I'd be inclined to believe it more.

 

[Rayderr]

So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

The cause of murders isn't guns. Wow.

Good luck out there, Ray.

Most guns aren't used in murders. A good percentage of murders don't use guns.

Yeah, guns are only involved in 68% of murders. So I guess "a good percentage" is 32%.

Man, some of you are testy when people bring up a good point.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

So perhaps we should look elsewhere to the cause of murders since it apparently isn't guns.

The cause of murders isn't guns. Wow.Good luck out there, Ray.

Most guns aren't used in murders. A good percentage of murders don't use guns.

Yeah, guns are only involved in 68% of murders. So I guess "a good percentage" is 32%.

Man, some of you are testy when people bring up a good point.

I wasn't being testy, what I was doing was mocking you. HTH

 

[Ratbert]

How about we focus on things we can change. Gun rights are not likely to change without a landmark SCOTUS ruling or a Constitutional Amendment (i seriously doubt we'll ever see one of those pass again). Education is a proven path out of poverty. Poverty & the resulting unrest are highly correlated with crime & violence. We need education reform. Some of the worst performing school districts have the highest spending per student, so funding is not the primary issue, (So expanding the DOE is the last thing we need). We need to break the cycle of poverty & ignorance, while preserving the right to be ignorant

Year round schools with a school day that is as long as a work day would do a lot. "Homework" could be done at school, not at home where there may not be a positive environment. The extended day would solve a lot of day care/latch key kid issues as well. If a rodent like me can spitball this stuff, people who really know things should be able to cook up a good solution.

What say you?

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

How about we focus on things we can change. Gun rights are not likely to change without a landmark SCOTUS ruling or a Constitutional Amendment (i seriously doubt we'll ever see one of those pass again). Education is a proven path out of poverty. Poverty & the resulting unrest are highly correlated with crime & violence. We need education reform. Some of the worst performing school districts have the highest spending per student, so funding is not the primary issue, (So expanding the DOE is the last thing we need). We need to break the cycle of poverty & ignorance, while preserving the right to be ignorant

Year round schools with a school day that is as long as a work day would do a lot. "Homework" could be done at school, not at home where there may not be a positive environment. The extended day would solve a lot of day care/latch key kid issues as well. If a rodent like me can spitball this stuff, people who really know things should be able to cook up a good solution.

What say you?

I think you are on the right path, but the real problem with education for the poorest students isn't the schools or the teachers (mostly), but the lack of family support and priority put on education. Worse still, in some groups and neighborhoods education is actually stigmatized.

Another potential solution to a huge portion of the gun crime problem is ending the War on Drugs and moving towards a decriminalization and treatment model.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I really don't understand why pretty much everyone, regardless of political affiliation, wants to end the war on drugs yet it never seems to end. Maybe we should draft a petition? I bet Mexico would love it also.