Doctor Detroit said:
And, you still can't answer the challenge. You may be bored, but I think confusion is your biggest issue right now.
If you want to give it another shot, I'll repeat one more time, and I'll talk really slowly here to help you follow along...
What is the evidence that the Yankees benefited from performance-enhancing drugs during that '96 season?
Again, GL with that.
So now it's "performance enhancers" only? That's hilarious because you think it fits your argument and you don't include amphetamines in that definition as you've already established. What "evidence" is there that any of these guys ever used "performance enhancers" outside of Bonds claim of accidental use, Giambi's tip toeing, and McGuire just ignoring the whole thing? Andro? Creatine? Designer steriod creams? What we do know is that players have taken amphetamines for a very long time and that Jose Canseco apparently didn't care who knew he was juicing. Steve Bechler died after using ephedra. I know that isn't a performance enhancer in you book but amphetamines are performance enhancers and cocaine can be used to enhance performance as well. We do have a positive test from Palmiero and Jason Grimsley admitting he used since 1998 to avoid a heavy jail term. The point of most fans anger is that there were so any players who used and it’s obvious. Why do you hate Bonds? Because he used but what evidence do we really have? Did anyone ever see him shoot anything?
During grand jury testimony on December 4, 2003 — which was obtained through unknown means by the San Francisco Chronicle (leaking grand jury testimony is a felony) and published almost a year later, on December 3, 2004 — Bonds allegedly said Anderson gave him a rubbing balm and a liquid substance that Anderson said was arthritis cream and flaxseed oil, respectively.[21] The prosecutors contended that what Bonds was actually given was "the cream" and "the clear", which are both forms of the designer steroid THG.
So what does that say really? To someone with any common sense it says he was using before 2004 maybe as early as 2000. But what evidence is there? Just like it takes only common sense to figure out Dwight Gooden, Darryl Strawberry, and Steve Howe (released in 1996 by the Yankees for unspecified reasons) were using cocaine, amphetamines, and probably just about anything because these guys were actually addicted to drugs. But you’re right, I have no proof. Neither do people saying Bonds used steroids prior to 2004. Since no one has been convicted, only a few have tested positive, and most of this stuff wasn’t in the testing program it becomes a baseball problem but again, where is the evidence? Isn’t common sense really enough? Maybe not if you have to switch definitions around and deny to protect your own opinion that your team was clean. No one was clean, that’s the point.
You want to talk evidence? Ok, I’ll play your little game. Show me where Bonds used steroids prior to 2004. glllll with that.
Here is some side reading on the Yankee Pharmacy techs:
1982 — Enters drug rehabilitation after the season.
June 29, 1983 — Fined one month's salary ($53,867) and placed on probation by the Dodgers after admitting a drug problem.
July 15, 1983 — Reported late for game and suspended two days by the Dodgers.
September 23, 1983 — Missed team flight to Atlanta and suspended indefinitely by the Dodgers for what the team says is cocaine dependency. Goes into substance abuse rehabilitation.
December 15, 1983 — Suspended for one year by Commissioner Bowie Kuhn for cocaine use.
May 1984 — In a grievance settlement, agreed not to play in 1984.
June 23, 1985 — Fined $300 by Los Angeles for arriving three hours late for a game.
July 1, 1985 — Placed on the restricted list by the National League for three days at the Dodgers' request after missing a game against Atlanta. Released by the Dodgers two days later.
August 12, 1985 — Signed by the Minnesota Twins, but released a month later after missing three games with what the team said was a "temporary recurrence" of cocaine problem.
March 20, 1986 — Signed by San Jose of the California League.
May 15, 1986 — Suspended by the National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues after allegedly testing positive for cocaine. The following month he was suspended again through December 31 for the same reason; San Jose released him the day his suspension was over.
July 11, 1987 — Signed by Oklahoma City of the Class AAA American Association; the Texas Rangers purchased his contract the following month.
November 1987 — Agreed to two-year, $1.2 million contract with Texas.
January 19, 1988 — Released by Texas after violating aftercare program by using alcohol.
April 4, 1990 — Signs contract with Salinas of the California League.
February 1991 — Signs contract with Columbus of the International League.
May 9, 1991 — Contract purchased by the New York Yankees.
November 5, 1991 — Signs one-year contract with the New York Yankees.
December 19, 1991 — Arrested on cocaine charges in Kalispell, Montana.
June 8, 1992 — Suspended indefinitely after pleading guilty in U.S. District Court in Missoula, Montana, to a misdemeanor charge of attempting to buy a gram of cocaine.
June 24, 1992 — Suspended permanently by Commissioner Fay Vincent.
August 18, 1992 — Fined the minimum $1,000 and ordered him to perform 100 hours of community service by a federal judge in Montana and placed on probation.
November 11, 1992 — Reinstated by a baseball arbitrator.
1993 - Has 3-5 Win-Loss record, 4 Saves, 19 Strikeouts and 4.97 ERA for Yankees.
1994 - Has 3-0 Win-Loss record, 15 Saves, 18 Strikeouts and 1.80 ERA for Yankees.
1995 - Has 6-3 Win-Loss record, 2 Saves, 28 Strikeouts and 4.96 ERA for Yankees.
June 22, 1996 — Released by Yankees.
June 24, 1996 — Arrested and charged with criminal possession of a weapon at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York when a police officer spots a loaded .357 Magnum pistol in his carry-on baggage.
April 1997 — Signs with the Sioux Falls Canaries of the independent Northern League in comeback attempt at age 39 but quits midseason because of an arm injury.
August 19, 1997 — Critically injured in a motorcycle crash and later charged with driving while intoxicated. Charges later dropped after prosecutors decided his blood test was improperly obtained.
April 1, 1999 — Suspended as a volunteer coach for his daughter's softball team in Whitefish, Montana.
April 28, 2006 — Dies in a one-vehicle car accident in Coachella, California, when his pickup truck rolls over in the early morning.
June 28, 2006 — The coroner's office of Valencia reports that toxicological results determined there was methamphetamine in his bloodstream at the time of his April 28, 2006 accident.
Though drug abuse is commonly blamed for Gooden's pitching troubles, some analysts point to his early workload. It has been estimated that Gooden threw over 10,800 pitches from 1983-85, a period in which he was just 18 to 20 years old.[1] Gooden hurled 276 innings in his historic 1985 season; in the 20 years since, only two pitchers have reached that amount, both in 1987. By the time he reached his 21st birthday, Gooden had already accumulated 928 strikeouts between both the minor and major leagues.
Gooden was accused along with two other teammates with rape in 1991, however, charges were never pressed. 1992 was Gooden's first-ever losing season (10-13); it was also the first time he had lost as many as 10 decisions. 1993 was no improvement, as Gooden finished 12-15 for a desultory Mets team. During the 1993 season, Sports Illustrated ran a cover story on Gooden entitled,"From Phenom to Phantom."
In 1994 at age 29, Gooden had a 3-4 record with a 6.31 ERA when he tested positive for cocaine use and was suspended for 60 days. He tested positive again while serving the suspension, and was further suspended for the entire 1995 season. The day after receiving the second suspension, Gooden's wife, Monica, found him in his bedroom with a loaded gun to his head.
On April 3, 1999, Strawberry was arrested in Tampa, Florida for soliciting sex from a police woman posing as a prostitute and for having a small amount of cocaine. On April 24, he was suspended for 140 days by Major League Baseball for the incident. On May 29, he pleaded no contest to the charges and was sentenced to 21 months probation and community service. [4]
On January 2, 2000, Strawberry tested positive for cocaine. On March 15, shortly after the test result was announced, Major League Baseball announced that he would be suspended for one year. Six days later, he was in rehab.
On September 11, 2000, in Tampa, Strawberry tried to drive to see his probation officer after taking painkillers. While driving, he blacked out, rear-ended another car, and then tried to drive away. An off-duty police officer witnessed the episode and arrested him at gunpoint. The next day, Strawberry admitted to the charges and his probation was changed to two years of house arrest. On November 21, he was sentenced to a year of probation and community service. [6]
Member of the 2000 Yankees: Jose Canseco
Grimsley confessed to the use of human growth hormones, amphetamines and steroids in 2003.[7]
His drug use began in 1998 while in Buffalo, New York. After a nine year MLB career, he was in the minors trying to get back to the majors after a shoulder injury. Among the drugs he has used are Deca-Durabolin, amphetamines, human growth hormone and Clenbuterol. Prior to the use of performance enhancing drugs he had earned a total of $1 million; subsequently he has earned $9 million. His ERA dropped by a run.
Look, the title of this whole freaking thing is "Official Juicer thread...all steroids all the time." If anyone's out to change the rules of this discussion midstream, it's been you. But, based on the opinions of people who really know this stuff--not the media types, who quite often know nothing--amphetamines really aren't performance-enhancing beyond increased vigilance, attention span, and maybe a bit better on a finger-tapping exercise. It's highly doubtful the gains realized in baseball live up to the hysteria--or to what benefits one gets from steroids.Besides, I keep asking you to please offer evidence for these folks:
For Cobalt 27:
1996 New York Yankees:
John Wettland
Paul O'Neil (roid rage)
Reuben Sierra
Jim Leyritz
Gerald Williams (freakishly fast in Sega based baseball games which makes me suspicious)
...and you've come up with zilch.As for the evidence of Bonds, maybe you've had your head in the sand or have been living in a cave (or are, otherwise, in recidivist denial), but you can get a summary in Fainaru-Wada/Williams' book that includes, but is not limited to, the following:
1. Jim Valente told IRS agents that Bonds received The Cream and Clear from BALCO (and that he provided these drugs to Greg Anderson to give to Bonds. Valente later pleaded guilty to steroids conspiracy charge related to these activities.
2. Victor Conte gave an identical account of Anderson bringing Bonds to BALCO and his later use of C & C.
3. Olympic shot-putter, C.J. Hunter, told feds that Conte and he discussed Bonds's use of the Clear.
4. In the U.S. grand jury testimony, Kimberly Bell (Bonds's former girlfriend) said that Bonds confided in her that he was on roids.
5. Sheffield testified that he saw Bonds taking C & C.
6. Documents were seized at Anderson's apartment that included a folder containing doping calendars detailing Bonds's schedule and use of steroids, along with payment entries from Bonds.
7. Anderson was outed with a secret recording where he acknoledged that Bonds was using "undetectable performance-enhancing" drugs to beat baseball's drug tests.
And, we haven't even begun to scratch the circumstantial, physical evidence that supports these accounts.
Of course, you seem to have a vested interest in exonerating Bonds, so you'll probably insist on continuing your mental gymnastics here suggesting that all these people are lying.
Hey, the O.J. jury was just as thick-headed, so I'm not surprised.
Point is, much evidence suggests Bonds used steroids, and you haven't offered one bit of evidence for the names you suggested above. Have some of the Yankees, along with other players, abused other drugs? Of course. No question. Did Grimsley, Giambi, Sheffield juice? I think it's virtually undeniable that they did. As a Giambi fan (never caring about Grimsley, and never liking Sheffield), I openly put him on my #### list (here, and with friends), and I think his latest comments have been utterly embarrassing and absurd.
But, unless you want to take the uneducated opinion that cocaine/amphetamines significantly improve performance, your position extends way beyond the scope of this topic's title...that YOU created...and was the only thing I was referencing, originally. I was calling you out on providing evidence of that '96 team using steroids, and you can't come up with anything. Did any of them? I imagine that's possible, if not likely, given what we now know about the scope of the problem. But, for you to suggest that steroids were so over-represented in the Yankee clubhouse, compared to all other teams, that they should have their WS rings stripped, is utterly laughable. Even I'm not claiming that Bonds's records be asterisked or wiped out. I just maintain that I, along with many others, will put his record(s) in their proper context...he cheated to obtain them.
BTW, who's advocated for not counting Bonds's records? I know I haven't. Most people who don't think they're legitimate are not, therefore, saying that the record books need to be tinkered with.
BTW, who's advocated for not counting Bonds's records? I know I haven't. Most people who don't think they're legitimate are not, therefore, saying that the record books need to be tinkered with.
BTW, who's advocated for not counting Bonds's records? I know I haven't. Most people who don't think they're legitimate are not, therefore, saying that the record books need to be tinkered with.
He really seemed to beef up in mid 90s and I think there's a pretty noticable power surge in his stats starting around '93 or '94. (Averaging around 7 HRs a year up to about 20)Plus Caminiti and Bagwell were there so you know there was juice readily available.
He really seemed to beef up in mid 90s and I think there's a pretty noticable power surge in his stats starting around '93 or '94. (Averaging around 7 HRs a year up to about 20)Plus Caminiti and Bagwell were there so you know there was juice readily available.
Anyhow, 94 would have been right around the time the Astros made all of those stupid adjustments to the Astrodome when they moved in the fences, planted flowers just above the wall, etc. I spent every spring in Kissimmee during Biggio/Bagwell years. There, you can pretty much walk up next to the players - I've even sat curbside with Bagwell in his rookie year and chatted with him while he waited for his then girlfriend (former playmate) to pick him up. I never saw anything noticeable with Biggio as far as the puffy face, popeye foremarms, etc. Bagwell - different story.
BTW, who's advocated for not counting Bonds's records? I know I haven't. Most people who don't think they're legitimate are not, therefore, saying that the record books need to be tinkered with.
NomarBarry BondsSammy SosoMark McGuireJason GiambiRoger Clemons?? Maybe that is why he waits until mid-season to pitch. Get the drugs out of his system.Pudge RodriguizJuan Gone
BTW, who's advocated for not counting Bonds's records? I know I haven't. Most people who don't think they're legitimate are not, therefore, saying that the record books need to be tinkered with.
You want to talk evidence? Ok, I’ll play your little game. Show me where Bonds used steroids prior to 2004. glllll with that.
