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Official Pep Hamilton is killing FF teams (1 Viewer)
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Mr. Brownstone
Footballguy
Andy Luck out here getting coaches fired.
I don't know how good a coordinator Hamilton is -- he looked boring and unimaginative two years ago, great last year, and mediocre this year -- but there is simply no way you can lay this team's problems at his feet. He hasn't blown multiple drafts that have hollowed out the team like Grigson. He didn't call that God-awful fake punt in the NE game. And it's not like he can go all Mr. Miyagi on Luck's various injuries.
When Caldwell fired his OC, it was a transparent attempt at blame-shifting, but at least there was some logic behind it; Detroit has the worst offense in the league. But firing Pip makes so little sense, we're almost forced to consider the conspiracy theory that Pagano knew Pep was probably in line to get the interim job and got rid of him to ensure there would be no viable replacement on staff for the rest of the season.
JimmyJabroni
Footballguy
So the problem isn't Andrew Luck and his cracked ribs that the organization chose to hide from the public for weeks, along with Luck's terrible decision making?
Also, are we sure this isn't the Patriots fault somehow?
Also, are we sure this isn't the Patriots fault somehow?
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Ted Stickles
Footballguy
Some of the worst plays calls I have ever seen in that game last night.
Luck has a known shoulder injury and speculation of a few fractured ribs.
He had been airmailing passes to different area codes than his WRs were in all game.
You know a FG ties the game and sends it to OT, yet you still call for the the long bombs on 1st and 10 rather than chip away and get guaranteed shorter yardage to move those chains?
And then some of those floaters into double and triple were God-awful.
Terrible play calling and Luck looks seriously wounded out there.
Hasslenuts gives them a better chance to win IMHO.
Luck has a known shoulder injury and speculation of a few fractured ribs.
He had been airmailing passes to different area codes than his WRs were in all game.
You know a FG ties the game and sends it to OT, yet you still call for the the long bombs on 1st and 10 rather than chip away and get guaranteed shorter yardage to move those chains?
And then some of those floaters into double and triple were God-awful.
Terrible play calling and Luck looks seriously wounded out there.
Hasslenuts gives them a better chance to win IMHO.
This column by an Indy sportswriter offers some more perspective. Apparently Pagano wanted to hire Chud all along, and Hamilton was forced on him by Grigson.
At this point, I feel like there's no one who's blameless, but I still put the bulk of it on Grigson. He lucked into a franchise QB (no pun intended), made a couple of other good late-round picks (Hilton first among them) and has screwed up just about everything else, including draft picks, trades and free agency.
BTW, I'm not even close to being an Indy homer, but I hate seeing a potential all-time great QB wasting his opportunity.
At this point, I feel like there's no one who's blameless, but I still put the bulk of it on Grigson. He lucked into a franchise QB (no pun intended), made a couple of other good late-round picks (Hilton first among them) and has screwed up just about everything else, including draft picks, trades and free agency.
BTW, I'm not even close to being an Indy homer, but I hate seeing a potential all-time great QB wasting his opportunity.
dirtyjay
Footballguy
I dont know when your offense is so predictable I think that can be a OC issue. Whya re people acting like a lot of the problem wasnt him? Pagano doesnt call plays on offense. Why has Luck been good before but Ds are all over him this year? Is he a bad QB all of a sudden I mean he has always been a turn over machine? Maybe he is, but this is an OC issue in large part, Pagano is only using the players his GM got him. Why are so many people quick to think this is a Pagano problem? IS it his fault Luck cant throw? Was it his fault the OC was calling predictable plays? Was it his fault his GM screws up every draft? Is it his fault his GM signed ancient players like Gore and Johnson and even draft a WR in the first round?
This is far far from a Pagano problem, he is using what he has and doing what he can. Can he bench Luck for Hass? No he cant.
This is far far from a Pagano problem, he is using what he has and doing what he can. Can he bench Luck for Hass? No he cant.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Colts management is tired of "Star Wars offense with not enough rings" and wants to power run (and stop the run), yet they draft like GM Matt Millen... oh those 1st round WR prospects are just too juicy to pass up. So that's (still) a problem.
Whatever changes in their hurry-up offense - which they seem to engage weekly, late in the 3rd QTR - that works for the personnel, QB, and OC that they have on staff. Whatever the process is during hurry-up, they should do it right out of the gate.
Luck is not wired as a game manager and Pep seemed out of sorts calling a run-heavy game plan... just air it out man. You cannot become this dominating run machine that imposes your will and controls the clock just because you say that's what you want to do.
Hate to say it, but this is why the Patriots are so scary. Their offensive identity is to not have one (as much as possible). The Colts want to be something they're not so badly that they are willing to chuck away the 1st half of every game just to try and prove it to themselves. Pep is better off. Pagano will be too.
Sorry Colts fans... can't fire the Owner.
Whatever changes in their hurry-up offense - which they seem to engage weekly, late in the 3rd QTR - that works for the personnel, QB, and OC that they have on staff. Whatever the process is during hurry-up, they should do it right out of the gate.
Luck is not wired as a game manager and Pep seemed out of sorts calling a run-heavy game plan... just air it out man. You cannot become this dominating run machine that imposes your will and controls the clock just because you say that's what you want to do.
Hate to say it, but this is why the Patriots are so scary. Their offensive identity is to not have one (as much as possible). The Colts want to be something they're not so badly that they are willing to chuck away the 1st half of every game just to try and prove it to themselves. Pep is better off. Pagano will be too.
Sorry Colts fans... can't fire the Owner.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Some also suspect that it is Pagano trying to prevent the now-typical "fire a bad head coach heading into the bye week" thing that owners/GMs have been doing when firing coaches in-season. Ironically, it's the same thing Jim Caldwell just did in Detroit - and he still has a job after getting torched in London by the Chiefs.
Pagano probably figures if he launches Pep as a "sacrificial lamb", then he might be able to avoid getting canned himself.
There are also rumors about the Colts being investigated for their handling of Luck and his rib injuries after the recent revelations that he's been playing with fractured ribs, despite not being on the Colts injury reports with the issue. Perhaps this is simply Pagano's (obvious) attempt to throw off the dogs by pointing some of the blame Pep's way - without coming right out and saying so.
Pagano probably figures if he launches Pep as a "sacrificial lamb", then he might be able to avoid getting canned himself.
There are also rumors about the Colts being investigated for their handling of Luck and his rib injuries after the recent revelations that he's been playing with fractured ribs, despite not being on the Colts injury reports with the issue. Perhaps this is simply Pagano's (obvious) attempt to throw off the dogs by pointing some of the blame Pep's way - without coming right out and saying so.
Peter King's explanation in today's MMQB -- which I think makes a fair amount of sense -- is that Pagano knows he's done if he doesn't turn things around, so he figured if this is his last shot, he wants the OC he originally targeted, rather than the guy who got forced on him.
Mr. Brownstone
Footballguy
We'll have no level headed questions in here, sir.zftcg said:
JaxBill
Footballguy
dirtyjay
Footballguy
Things change each year? Seems reasonable enough. Last year was last year. Players can stink after a year of doing good, so can coaches.
CalBear
Footballguy
What has Luck done to be dubbed a potential all-time great QB? Other than get hyped as a prospect coming out of college. He's #24 in yards per attempt since 2012, behind guys like Kirk Cousins and Ryan Fitzpatrick. He's 25th in pass completion percentage, behind Colin Kapernick. The only stat he does at all well in is passing TDs, where he's sixth since 2012--but he's also fourth in INTs.
2012-2015
Luck: 1203/2070 (58.1%), 14586 yards, 99 TD/55 INT
Dalton: 1154/1826 (63.2%), 13352, 94 TD/57 INT
need2know
Footballguy
Todem
Footballguy
Like Kap he has led his tam to the post season and more recently to an AFC title game.
Send him down to South Florida please.
He is a franchise QB. He is playing hurt right now. Pretty obvious. If you can't see how good he can become I don't know what your watching. He is one of the best QB prospects to come into the NFL in a very long time (along with Cam Newton IMO).
Stats don't talk about intangibles like leadership, big game performance etc. Lucks first three seasons he has led his team and last year really turned it on. This is year has been a regression. But injuries, and a poor OL have really helped the decline.....he has a great future.
His first three years have proven he is a winning QB.
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Pipes
Footballguy
I was on Pep early last year but the Colts offense came around. Pagano is awful and knows he's in trouble so he's in desperation mode right now. I don't see how Luck signs a long term deal with this mess of an organization.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Just curious... wouldn't the first three years of each career be a better comparison?
Not sure how the numbers stack up, but the above does ignore Dalton's rookie year.
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Sure. But I was responding to need2know's post that called him "the suck" and mentioned his overreliance on T-Rich in 2013 (which I agree was horrible). So why do we automatically skip over what he did in between?
Todem
Footballguy
When he is offered the biggest contract for any QB in history he won't be able to get his pen out fast enough.
Pipes
Footballguy
CalBear
Footballguy
You're starting a defense of a QB with "Like Kaep"? You know Kaep just got benched, right?Todem said:
As for the first three years, if you want to be picayune, it's:
Luck: 1062/1813 (58.58%)/12957, 86 TD 43 INT
Dalton: 992/1630 (60.86%)/11360, 80 TD 49 INT
Looking at everyone who's had the first three years of their careers since 2005, Luck's rate stats are not as good as Wilson, Carson Palmer, Nick Foles, Kaepernick, RGIII, Flacco, and Cutler. The only thing he's done is throw more passes than they did.
As for "big games", in the playoffs he's "led" his team by throwing 12 INTs in 6 games. In fact he's only had two good games in the playoffs, and that's if you count the 2013 game against KC where he threw 3 INTs as good.
Todem
Footballguy
Yeah your right Andrew Luck stinks, is overrated and I want RGII, Cutler, Kaep, and Foles and over him.
Wilson and Flacco are proven post season winners no doubt. Palmer has yet to win in the post season as well.
But Luck sucks.....I get it.
Ok.
Send him down here please. I beg the Colts to trade him straight up with Tannehill. Please...pretty please.
Luck took that Colts team last season and put them on his back all the way to the AFC title game.
And yeah Kaep lost his job....he has looked horrible since Harbaugh took off. But don't deny what he did the year the 49ers went to the Super Bowl. It was a remarkable run.
One that Dalton has yet to sniff.
Luck is a real deal franchise QB.....20 plus teams would line up to get him so your really reaching bashing this kid who is already a star and struggling with some serious injuries this season.
But he sucks......his stats say he sucks. Let's not look at his first 3 seasons and gradual ascent of his team each season. Let's just judge this season where his OL is horrid and he is playing with bad shoulder and 3 broken ribs.
Sheesh.
I don't own him in a y league as a disclaimer.....talking football. Luck is regarded as a top QB despite what you think and say. He is just having an off year. I would take him all day as my QB.
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Pipes
Footballguy
If Grigson is still around and the organization is in shambles yes. It's not like the franchise amount for a QB is peanuts. Yes it's a risk for Luck but at the same time he's the best young QB in the game. It seems pretty safe for him to bet on himself.
CalBear
Footballguy
Obviously Luck is regarded as a top QB. And sure, he's among the "good young QBs" group right now (though not clearly at the top of that group). I was objecting to the characterization of him as a "potential all-time great." I don't think his play has warranted it, and if he were drafted in the second round, I don't think people would be making that assertion. In addition to his first three years being unimpressive relative to his peers, he's been outplayed this year on his own team in virtually every passing stat (and is 1-5 vs. 2-0) by a 40-year-old journeyman.
There are 26 QBs in the Hall of Fame. Here is the list of all of them who failed to finish in the top 5 in either YPA or passer rating in their first four years in the league:
Terry Bradshaw
Dan Fouts
John Elway
Warren Moon
That's not a list of the all-time greats. In fact it's pretty close to a list of the four weakest HOF QBs (though it's missing Joe Namath).
The closest match to Luck, of course, is Elway, whose pre-draft hype carried him through 10 years of extremely mediocre play, with lots of people making excuses for him the entire time: giving him credit for every team accomplishment and ignoring his contributions to the failures. Maybe at some point in his career Luck will luck into a great defense and dominating running game and get undeserved credit for some Super Bowl wins, as Elway did.
Todem
Footballguy
Totally agree with that Cal. He has not warranted that type of hyperbole.
Glad we sorted that out.
I feel he has ton's of potential and can have a fantastic career. And thus far he has proven he can be a franchise QB. But all time great? No not yet at all. He has a ways to go before pundits should start talking like that.
And we are in total agreement about Elway's career. Great clutch QB though who won in the playoffs a lot.
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I think I was the one who used the phrase "all-time great" upthread, so just to clarify: I don't think anyone would argue that Luck is an ATG based on his first 3 1/2 seasons. The question is whether he has the potential to eventually be one. Maybe his track record suggests that he doesn't, but if you had to by a futures contract on any NFL QB today, who would you take ahead of him?
But even if he's not at that level, what Indy has done over the past few years is borderline criminal. Under the new CBA, getting a young franchise QB on his rookie contract is, in the words of Gov. Blagojevich, "f###ing golden". When Seattle found themselves in a similar situation (even better since Wilson was a third-rounder), they used the extra cap room to get free agents like Avril and Bennett and win a Super Bowl. Indy, meanwhile, has invested in has-beens like AJohnson and never-wases like Richardson. In a year or two, Luck will get paid and Indy's window of flexibility will start to close. Maybe they'll have more competent leadership by then and he'll still be able to carry them to a title. But it will never be as easy as it could have been the past few years.
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Ladsud
Footballguy
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/06/grigson-pagano-feud-triggers-players-only-meeting/
Players only meeting last week, front office making lineup decisions? Strange times in Indy!
Players only meeting last week, front office making lineup decisions? Strange times in Indy!
Todem
Footballguy
I don't disagree with your assessment either. I feel Luck is the best prospect at the position in a very very long time....well over a decade actually. I think he has all the potential in the world to be an all time great.
Send him down here please. LOL.
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How the haters feeling today? Luck looks pretty damn good at making the #1 Defense in the league blow their tops. Chuds actually had a gameplan, actually called plays in response to what he was seeing on defense (on the field, in the game). Shocking! Quick throws mixed with play-action, changed up with inside runs and screens. All in their proper time and place, and in response to what the defense is showing. I'm still not comfortable with the amount of hits the guy took last night, at all. They have GOT to get better protection in place, but I'm hoping that was largely due to the level of competition, and we won't see a more skilled pass rush the rest of the regular season.
