RnR
Footballguy
You do understand the qualifying offer process, yes? There's more to it than "posturing"...
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
***Official Pittsburgh Pirates 2014 Thread*** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Drunken Cowboy
- Start date
RnR
Footballguy
Sure, but you said "why bother?" with the posturing of extending the offer. There is a clear competitive advantage to doing so.
FWIW, I believe they are playing this the exact way they should. Extend the QO to receive the compensation when he leaves, and give him a hearty handshake on his way out for a job well done. Pirates should sleep easy with the warm feeling in their stomach knowing that they likely got his best season at a reasonable market price while his new suitor (potentially a division rival) foots the bill hoping for a repeat.
Last edited by a moderator:
monessen
Footballguy
Agreed. My "Why bother?" remark was more out of fan exasperation than the business move being made entailing the win-win scenario.
The front office wins because they'll say the offer was extended, and draft picks, at the least, are forthcoming when the players sign elsewhere since the team will get into no bidding wars for either player.
The players involved win because they are sure to get longer-term contracts at more than what the Bucs would likely propose.
The MLB Players Association wins because the escalating salaries are viewed as commensurate with what the new TV contract portends and what they believe Martin & Liriano are worth.
The teams signing Martin and Liriano win because they can pay without giving it much thought since many are not on the Bucs' tight budget, and demonstrate to their fans a commitment to filling holes and plucking sought-after and productive 2014 stars with their teams' goal of winning in 2015.
Really, the only losers are Pittsburgh's fans and the post Martin-Liriano roster. Both free agents were integral to Bucco success in 2013 & 2014, and will be missed. It is very hard to locate replacements productive enough at a cost comparable to what that duo was earning. Now that we've had a short taste of exciting, playoff baseball, it's tough to imagine what roster additions will compensate for what's about to disappear.
The front office wins because they'll say the offer was extended, and draft picks, at the least, are forthcoming when the players sign elsewhere since the team will get into no bidding wars for either player.
The players involved win because they are sure to get longer-term contracts at more than what the Bucs would likely propose.
The MLB Players Association wins because the escalating salaries are viewed as commensurate with what the new TV contract portends and what they believe Martin & Liriano are worth.
The teams signing Martin and Liriano win because they can pay without giving it much thought since many are not on the Bucs' tight budget, and demonstrate to their fans a commitment to filling holes and plucking sought-after and productive 2014 stars with their teams' goal of winning in 2015.
Really, the only losers are Pittsburgh's fans and the post Martin-Liriano roster. Both free agents were integral to Bucco success in 2013 & 2014, and will be missed. It is very hard to locate replacements productive enough at a cost comparable to what that duo was earning. Now that we've had a short taste of exciting, playoff baseball, it's tough to imagine what roster additions will compensate for what's about to disappear.
Last edited by a moderator:
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
No roster addition can compensate for the loss of Martin
Eephus
Footballguy
Pittsburgh got incredible value out of their short-term deals for Martin and Liriano. They contributed somewhere around 14 WAR for a total of $21M.
I think that's the way small market teams are going to have to play the modern game. Develop a core of cost controlled players and bring in vets on opportunistic contracts to try to capitalize during the team's window. If they don't work out, you write them off. If you do manage to get productive years, it's thank you very much and hope you hit on the compensation pick.
Martin was in Pittsburgh for two years. It's not like Pops, Maz or Hans is leaving. He was a rental and the lease is up.
I think that's the way small market teams are going to have to play the modern game. Develop a core of cost controlled players and bring in vets on opportunistic contracts to try to capitalize during the team's window. If they don't work out, you write them off. If you do manage to get productive years, it's thank you very much and hope you hit on the compensation pick.
Martin was in Pittsburgh for two years. It's not like Pops, Maz or Hans is leaving. He was a rental and the lease is up.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
monessen
Footballguy
I appreciate the insight/perspective, gents. Must point out the Nuttings' net worth places them 10th, I believe, among MLB owners according to Forbes magazine. They are disciplined and prudent spenders who keep the Bucs in the 25-30 range in team payroll though there are many markets considered relatively equal in size, like Cincinnati, Milwaukee, KC, Cleveland, Baltimore, Minnesota, etc, Despite the years of poor finishes after 1992, the relatively-high draft slots have not generated talent, with a few exceptions, to put this team in serious contention for an NL championship despite heroics from the Hurdles and Harrisons in the organization. And the squad under Huntington is a revolving door of veteran plug-ins, some of whom pan out and many who don't. They've won just enough to draw nearly 2.5 million a year, which merits some spending instead of elongated player development time for minor leaguers like Tony Sanchez, who may have already peaked in what they can produce.
Any setbacks to larger market teams like the LA duo, Yankees, Philly, Atlanta, Boston, etc., on not getting a great return on big investments are shrugged off and quickly offset because their views toward spending are quite different and not squemish.
I have major faith in the overachieving Bucco players, but none toward management forfeiting a genuine commitment toward winning, instead praying their modest acquistions will continue to overachieve.
There aren't many high profile managers these days. A lot are hard-working formerly obscure players. But no high profile manager of recent vintage would ever want to take on the challenge of making the Pirates winners without the assurance that ownership will do whatever is needed to compete consistently at a high level. When Leyland left the team, it was because he knew the Bucs would never be "major players" in obtaining talent. Moving on to Florida and Detroit chiefly had to do with being convinced those organizations walked the walk in procuring and attempting to retain stars. Ours, frankly, doesn't.
Any setbacks to larger market teams like the LA duo, Yankees, Philly, Atlanta, Boston, etc., on not getting a great return on big investments are shrugged off and quickly offset because their views toward spending are quite different and not squemish.
I have major faith in the overachieving Bucco players, but none toward management forfeiting a genuine commitment toward winning, instead praying their modest acquistions will continue to overachieve.
There aren't many high profile managers these days. A lot are hard-working formerly obscure players. But no high profile manager of recent vintage would ever want to take on the challenge of making the Pirates winners without the assurance that ownership will do whatever is needed to compete consistently at a high level. When Leyland left the team, it was because he knew the Bucs would never be "major players" in obtaining talent. Moving on to Florida and Detroit chiefly had to do with being convinced those organizations walked the walk in procuring and attempting to retain stars. Ours, frankly, doesn't.
monessen
Footballguy
If true about how especially resourceful the so-called small market teams must be to compete, they don't belong in major league baseball. A separate Division II level, maybe. There is a far greater margin of error to enable a larger payrolled squad to win a World Series. Having McCutchen and a fabulous stadium may be reason enough for many fans to take in games, but isn't the not-so-tacit premise to win a championship? If doing everything exactly right is the prerequisite, Huntington and Coonelly are not capable of making that happen. Maybe Nutting is content with their recent success, and upgrades are merely fantasies for the fans.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
You don't need to be super-good to win a WS. Just fairly good.
Eephus
Footballguy
The Pirates were tied for the 4th best record in the NL with some other team
Eephus
Footballguy
I thought Tim Alderson would make it to the big leagues. I had to search back to see if I liked the Alderson-Freddy Sanchez trade (I didn't) but Sabean turned out to be right (sort of).
But I'm 99% sure I was the first person to ever use the word Bumgarner on this board.
monessen
Footballguy
Everyone in the world by now has heard of Baumgarner and one of the greatest post-seasons ever.
How about a link on the Sabean trades?
http://www.elysianfielders.com/this-day-in-giants-history-july-29-2009-brian-sabean-is-not-afraid-to-trade-pitching-prospects/
Pirates were taken to the cleaners a few times in there. Jason Schmidt & John Vander Wal for Rios and Vogelsong was a tad lop-sided. But Vogelsong eventually turned things around . . . with the Giants, though.
As to Freddy Sanchez, he was hitting .296 with a .776 OPS in 2009 when traded for Tim Alderson. The Pirates were banking on Alderson's potential and not banking on Sanchez's 6 million per year salary, despite his popularity in Pittsburgh for events and charities. Am glad he was a Giant in 2010, and got a championship ring. Am sure Sabean took some flak for Sanchez's salary, but no one in San Francisco went broke, did they?
They was a lot of talk in Pgh a couple of seasons back about acquiring Hunter Pence, but no real consensus on what he'd contribute and whether he'd be worth the asking price. Maybe Sabean can say.
How about a link on the Sabean trades?
http://www.elysianfielders.com/this-day-in-giants-history-july-29-2009-brian-sabean-is-not-afraid-to-trade-pitching-prospects/
Pirates were taken to the cleaners a few times in there. Jason Schmidt & John Vander Wal for Rios and Vogelsong was a tad lop-sided. But Vogelsong eventually turned things around . . . with the Giants, though.
As to Freddy Sanchez, he was hitting .296 with a .776 OPS in 2009 when traded for Tim Alderson. The Pirates were banking on Alderson's potential and not banking on Sanchez's 6 million per year salary, despite his popularity in Pittsburgh for events and charities. Am glad he was a Giant in 2010, and got a championship ring. Am sure Sabean took some flak for Sanchez's salary, but no one in San Francisco went broke, did they?
They was a lot of talk in Pgh a couple of seasons back about acquiring Hunter Pence, but no real consensus on what he'd contribute and whether he'd be worth the asking price. Maybe Sabean can say.
monessen
Footballguy
Check out the Pirates 2010 thread circa March that year. There are comments on how tremendous the Alderson trade was for the Pirates (I got torn up for hating the deal), how Andrew McCutchen is not in Justin Upton or Joe Mauer's league regarding talent (I got ripped for saying McCutchen is at least as good if not better than Upton), and other former posters denouncing my defense of Sabean by pointing to Zito's contract subverting whatever acumen Sabean may have possessed. There is also a list of farm system stalwarts the Pirates are developing who'll make the MLB squad talented and tough, such as Tony Sanchez, Jose Tabata, Colton Cain, and Alderson.
monessen
Footballguy
I would not be surprised if Cervelli turns out to be a replacement for Gaby Sanchez at first-base, rather than Martin's successor behind the plate. Cervelli is injury-prone at catcher, and I believe they want to ship out Gaby.
Wilson will be a good 7th or 8th inning set-up man for NY and for whomever succeeds David Robertson as closer should he not return. Wilson was very tough on righties, even more than he was on left-handed batters.
Wilson will be a good 7th or 8th inning set-up man for NY and for whomever succeeds David Robertson as closer should he not return. Wilson was very tough on righties, even more than he was on left-handed batters.
Eephus
Footballguy
Cervelli's best attribute is his defense. Moving him to 1B would expose his offensive limitations. I don't know what Pittsburgh is going to do with Davis and Alvarez.
Balco
Footballguy
I hear Davis might be a non tender candidate. Wonder what Alvarez' worth is on the trade market. I am guessing not much.
Still think they should talk to Houston about one of their three catchers.
monessen
Footballguy
Months ago, fans and writers opined how Davis, leaving NY, would benefit from "a change in scenery." I believe it's time for another one.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Here's the latest on Ike Davis, via Joel Sherman of the New York Post.
"It is probably a challenge," Huntington said of keeping Davis. "Ike works hard and is a great guy. He didn’t give the production we were hopeful for. It doesn’t mean the door is closed. But as it sits now,
Pedro will be at first.
"
"It is probably a challenge," Huntington said of keeping Davis. "Ike works hard and is a great guy. He didn’t give the production we were hopeful for. It doesn’t mean the door is closed. But as it sits now,
Pedro will be at first.
"
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
And now AJ Burnett is back. 
Last edited by a moderator:
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Balco
Footballguy
That is a good signing.I like it.And now AJ Burnett is back.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Meh. I think he's out of gas.Balco said:That is a good signing.fred_1_15301 said:I like it.Leeroy Jenkins said:And now AJ Burnett is back.
Balco
Footballguy
Meh. I think he's out of gas.Balco said:That is a good signing.fred_1_15301 said:I like it.Leeroy Jenkins said:And now AJ Burnett is back.
He played hurt last year, threw over 200 innings, was top 10 in NL in strikeouts. He was last in walks. His ERA will go back under 4.00 in Pitt, and for 8.5 mil, he should give a solid return on that investment. He needs to reduce his walk rate.Meh. I think he's out of gas.Balco said:That is a good signing.fred_1_15301 said:I like it.Leeroy Jenkins said:And now AJ Burnett is back.
irish eyes
Footballguy
Wow Torontosigned martin 5 yes $82 mill, fresh.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
I would loved to have seen Martin retire in Pittsburgh, but that was way too much. I am glad they passed. I think they should try and trade for Navarro.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Agree and I'm really happy for Martin. That guy was heroic for this team. I'm glad he got his big payday.Drunken Cowboy said:
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Like the Burnett signing too, fwiw.
monessen
Footballguy
Congrats to Zach Duke for finding a niche as a lefty reliever and getting a 3-year & $15 million contract from the White Sox. Good comeback story, a la Vogelsong.
Bucs signed Radhames Liz, who won't be nearly as expensive. Hasn't been in MLB since 2009, but . . .
I anticipate Burnett will be the Pirates' highest paid starting pitcher in 2015. They don't seem to be in the hunt for Hammel, Lester, and others the way big spenders like the Marlins and Royals are.
Bucs signed Radhames Liz, who won't be nearly as expensive. Hasn't been in MLB since 2009, but . . .
I anticipate Burnett will be the Pirates' highest paid starting pitcher in 2015. They don't seem to be in the hunt for Hammel, Lester, and others the way big spenders like the Marlins and Royals are.
monessen
Footballguy
Here is the Bucs' reclamation project. They want him to attain the success he never had in MLB:
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/21/pirates-next-reclamation-project-pitcher-radhames-liz/
Masterson, Lester, etc. are outside the Pgh financial model. The club isn't mentioned as in the mix for Masterson. They aren't going to sign a pitcher for more than what they paid Burnett. And, with Morton at 8 million for 2015, expecting someone in the $5-6 million range isn't realistic either. They've cleared away the Axfords, Jeanmars, Ikes, etc., to ink their arbitration eligible players like Walker. A payroll of 91 million or more in 2015 is not especially likely unless they do it simply to prove they can spend $90 million and thereby claim they upgraded the squad.
LaRoche and Duke ought to send the team's front office a pair of big 'thank yous" for enabling those players to land nice-sized contracts with the White Sox. Too bad Duke couldn't be a reclamation project. Like Bautista in Toronto who had a flaw in his swing fixed, Duke corrected a flaw in his delivery and has pitched well. Pirates had no intention of keeping LaRoche or bringing in anyone in exchange of equal value in 2009 when cleaning house. They did get Strickland but parted ways with him before he had a chance to prove himself in Pgh.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/21/pirates-next-reclamation-project-pitcher-radhames-liz/
Masterson, Lester, etc. are outside the Pgh financial model. The club isn't mentioned as in the mix for Masterson. They aren't going to sign a pitcher for more than what they paid Burnett. And, with Morton at 8 million for 2015, expecting someone in the $5-6 million range isn't realistic either. They've cleared away the Axfords, Jeanmars, Ikes, etc., to ink their arbitration eligible players like Walker. A payroll of 91 million or more in 2015 is not especially likely unless they do it simply to prove they can spend $90 million and thereby claim they upgraded the squad.
LaRoche and Duke ought to send the team's front office a pair of big 'thank yous" for enabling those players to land nice-sized contracts with the White Sox. Too bad Duke couldn't be a reclamation project. Like Bautista in Toronto who had a flaw in his swing fixed, Duke corrected a flaw in his delivery and has pitched well. Pirates had no intention of keeping LaRoche or bringing in anyone in exchange of equal value in 2009 when cleaning house. They did get Strickland but parted ways with him before he had a chance to prove himself in Pgh.
Balco
Footballguy
I figured Mastersons stock is so low that he would sign a one year prove it deal. Pirates have done a great job lately hitting on these pitchers. If they want a big money contract pitcher, they have the pieces to get Cole Hamels.
They need to have a contingency plan at first. Huntington appears to be all in with Pedro Alvarez, which could prove to be a huge mistake.
The Pirates can win with the offense they have. But they need to improve that bullpen and add one more starter.
monessen
Footballguy
Money talks. Sandoval and Hanley R to Boston.
https://sports.yahoo.com/news/red-sox-once-again-prove-money-still-rules-baseball-202525566.html
What helps make baseball fascinating is there is no salary cap. What helps make it inherently inequitable is there is no salary cap.
https://sports.yahoo.com/news/red-sox-once-again-prove-money-still-rules-baseball-202525566.html
What helps make baseball fascinating is there is no salary cap. What helps make it inherently inequitable is there is no salary cap.
Balco
Footballguy
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
monessen
Footballguy
With "SRod" now in the fold, am not sure the Bucs are in the market for a Alvarez platoon guy. That may be "SRod." I think it is so impressive when a guy can bat 115 times against right-handed pitching, not draw a single walk, but strikeout 34 times. Of course, "SRod" won't see many righties.
Cubs reportedly offered Jon Lester $138 million over 6 years, which is probably what the Pirates proposed too.
Balco
Footballguy
I think the Sean Rodriguez signing was a smart one, he can play all over the field. They still need a platoon mate with Alvarez. Blanks makes too much sense.
jfranco77
Footballguy
yeah, I don't think S-Rod is the platoon partner for Pedro. I think he's just the new Barmes. I can only assume they cut Gaby because they think there is a cheaper alternative out there somewhere for free.
Pirates have allegedly made re-signing Liriano "their top priority"
Honestly I might have preferred the 1st round pick and someone like Masterson or McCarthy, but if the QO is holding down his value and they can get him for 3/36 or something I guess that's OK.
Pirates have allegedly made re-signing Liriano "their top priority"
Honestly I might have preferred the 1st round pick and someone like Masterson or McCarthy, but if the QO is holding down his value and they can get him for 3/36 or something I guess that's OK.
monessen
Footballguy
Am hoping the signing of Clayton Richard has nothing to do with chances of retaining Liriano. It's easy to see how Richard, like Lis, can be touted as another reclamation project. i hardly believe Richard qualifies as insurance should Liriano sign elsewhere.
Though Andrew Miller got a sweet deal from the Yankees for a pitcher who never closed before and the arbitration estimates for Melancon that I've seen put MM at around $7 million or higher next year, I am putting the over/under at $6.2 million. Just a guess.
Though Andrew Miller got a sweet deal from the Yankees for a pitcher who never closed before and the arbitration estimates for Melancon that I've seen put MM at around $7 million or higher next year, I am putting the over/under at $6.2 million. Just a guess.
