irish eyes
Footballguy
Feeling uneasy, how about 123 first from volquez then pirate 5 run 1st!
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***Official Pittsburgh Pirates 2014 Thread*** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Drunken Cowboy
- Start date
Rough night for the Pirates. Even with the struggles with pitching the real problem was that Bumgarter was just unstoppable early to the point that they got desperate.
And I have no problem with them starting Cole in game 162 for the reasons tonight. Making the wild card game is better than nothing but it is really something you don't want to do. If you can avoid it and win the division you do it. Remember the Cards were going to start Wainright if the Pirates won that game so they had the same strategy
Hard to say now but still a great season and looking for forward to next year
And I have no problem with them starting Cole in game 162 for the reasons tonight. Making the wild card game is better than nothing but it is really something you don't want to do. If you can avoid it and win the division you do it. Remember the Cards were going to start Wainright if the Pirates won that game so they had the same strategy
Hard to say now but still a great season and looking for forward to next year
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fred_1_15301
Footballguy
monessen
Footballguy
Management got what they wanted-----record attendance, a very tidy profit for this season given the amount spent, the illusion or pretense of spending more to keep prominent players in the fold or find new ones. This is the semblance of commitment to building an actual perennial contender.
The season's overachieving players and Hurdle did great things on their own because there were no major reinforcements coming. The credit NH merits is finding inexpensive spare parts who came through this year (Worley, Stewart, Ike Davis, etc.) when in previous years, they hadn't. Like 2013, this was a prime opportunity to seize upon lightning in a bottle. And, part of why is because there's no clear proof of a goal of improvement going forward. Key players will sign elsewhere despite claims by the Bucs of having made "competitive offers," and the team will be in continuous re-tooling mode to try and stay competitive. Reliance on extended stretches of the season on Michael Martinez, Morel, Barmes, Jayson Nix, etc,. while keeping Polanco under wraps in April underscores how keeping assets offsets reasons not to upgrade competitive talent to fill out its roster.
I'm sorry I can't be more optimistic right now. I just watched a ballgame where the visitors started an elite MLB hurler against a guy whose season wasn't bad, but whose career has been very average. despite the fan enthusiasm.
With Morton scheduled to receive 8 million next year but consistently proving he can't start 30 games in a season, along with others like Walker and Harrison whose performance will command a higher salary, they won't be able to "keep the band together."
For the fans, a great ride and the perception fortunes will get even brighter. For management, financial rewards, a rationale to raise ticket prices in 2015, and somber talk of spending constraints given the marketplace and context in which they operate. Well, some folks swallow it whole.
The season's overachieving players and Hurdle did great things on their own because there were no major reinforcements coming. The credit NH merits is finding inexpensive spare parts who came through this year (Worley, Stewart, Ike Davis, etc.) when in previous years, they hadn't. Like 2013, this was a prime opportunity to seize upon lightning in a bottle. And, part of why is because there's no clear proof of a goal of improvement going forward. Key players will sign elsewhere despite claims by the Bucs of having made "competitive offers," and the team will be in continuous re-tooling mode to try and stay competitive. Reliance on extended stretches of the season on Michael Martinez, Morel, Barmes, Jayson Nix, etc,. while keeping Polanco under wraps in April underscores how keeping assets offsets reasons not to upgrade competitive talent to fill out its roster.
I'm sorry I can't be more optimistic right now. I just watched a ballgame where the visitors started an elite MLB hurler against a guy whose season wasn't bad, but whose career has been very average. despite the fan enthusiasm.
With Morton scheduled to receive 8 million next year but consistently proving he can't start 30 games in a season, along with others like Walker and Harrison whose performance will command a higher salary, they won't be able to "keep the band together."
For the fans, a great ride and the perception fortunes will get even brighter. For management, financial rewards, a rationale to raise ticket prices in 2015, and somber talk of spending constraints given the marketplace and context in which they operate. Well, some folks swallow it whole.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
This is just awful. It was a bad end, but it was a great season. Without all the injuries this team would have won 95 games. They were the best team in baseball down the stretch. It is hard to complain about management given that.monessen said:
monessen
Footballguy
monessen
Footballguy
Just want to establish the team was 35-38 without Polanco on the roster & 53-36 with him. He had 50 runs scored & 33 RBI in 277 ABs, along with 14 SBs and 7 HRs. Yes, he faded as the season progressed, but we know his time in the minors until June 10th was financially-motivated and not because there were things "he still had to work on." All rookies make mistakes. But he merited a roster spot earlier on. And despite slumping, his are MVP-numbers contrasted with the combined ABs for Morel/Nix/Martinez/Barmes: 216 ABs; 19 runs scored & 14 RBI; zero homers. Polanco, given, is not an infielder. But infielders like Stephen Drew were available if holes needed to be plugged due to nagging injuries.monessen said:
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
The record with Polanco has very little to do with him being on the team. Much of that difference came from September and he was on the bench for a lot of that. The real reasons for better 2nd half play were Marte turning it around and Harrison.monessen said:
The decision to hold Polanco down was correct in all ways. It was the best thing for his development. It was the best thing for the team's long term future. Those two months will give the Pirates one more year of him when he is in his prime. It was best for the team this year. If he would have been up at the beginning of the year, Harrison might not have emerged.
The MI situation has nothing to do with Polanco. The injuries the Pirates had in the MI were pretty crazy. They lost their starting 2B, SS and backup MI all at the same time. Drew was already signed by the time that happened. Plus there is a reason why nobody else signed him. He isn't nearly good enough to give up a first round pick for.
monessen
Footballguy
Really not much disagreement between us on particulars, just the overall contention on management's (in)action. You say Polanco was kept in the minors until mid-June for long term business reasons. Agreed! I only wish it wasn't about business first, but rather winning. Perhaps they'd have won more games earlier in 2014. More on it shortly.
I also posted Polanco, admittedly, is not a middle infielder. You say likewise. More common ground! But my message was predicated on citing how much more production Polanco provided as a rookie (supposedly not quite ready for the majors, according to management back in May) than the weak coterie of MI subs supplied. What if Harrison had not blossomed, as he did? Did the club ever anticipate Josh was capable of such excellence? Probably not. If so, they, conversely, should have been prescient about how little Ike Davis would bring in a platoon against righties; why Pedro Alvarez could've slumped worse than Polanco; that Tony Alvarez's performance, with Martin out, inspired so little confidence that re-signing Martin is considered imperative; that Marte would have had struggled in the leadoff role in April/May----a weak start potentially counteracted by acting earlier to replace him with . . . Polanco. If rumors of Tabata and Marte partying too often in April & May were valid, maybe Tabata should have been dealt with by management sooner.
Marte was torrid in August & September batting in the 5-7 slots, despite striking out 131 times in less than 500 ABs in 2014. For a guy with just 5 homers in the first 4 months of season in 314 ABs, and a BA of .255, yes, he looked very good in the final 49 games. In games Marte started, the team played .544 ball. In June & July, Polanco had 5 homers in 178 ABs batting at or near the top of the lineup. In games Polanco started, they played .556 ball. Marte was with the Bucs in 2012 when he was 23. Polanco was called up a couple of months shy of his 23rd birthday. Am not sure how to gauge the cliché of much-needed minor league development if business/contract/Super 2 leverage is what takes precedence anyway.
I was tossing out Drew only as an example of an available player and, you're correct, he signed with Boston in June just a week or so before Neal Walker went down for 2 weeks. Drew also flopped later with the Yankees. However, the fact is, the allegedly prospect-rich Pirate organization could not generate better than the aforementioned quartet of MI replacements.
Management? Here's a link from August. Let's see what happens:
http://blog.steelcitybuzz.com/2014/08/25/the-pirates-must-significantly-increase-payroll-in-2015/
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Marte already took the next step this year IMO. If Polanco takes the next step, this offense could be deadly. If Cole also turns into a legitimate ace, this team will probably win the division. I'm already assuming there is no way Martin or Liriano are ever in a Pirates uniform again. Some team will overpay for those guys and the Pirates simply can't compete.
monessen
Footballguy
No team since the 2003 Marlins has won the World Series with a payroll in the lowest third of the 30 MLB teams. That will be true again in 2014.
It's good to see clubs like KC make a good account of themselves. Shows what wise investments (with them now at about $90 million and reports they're willing to go over $100 million in salary in 2015 to keep up with the likes of AL clubs like Seattle who'lll spend more too), and keen decision-making can achieve. Baltimore has made a simliar commitment, and must, in order to cope with the Yankees and Red Sox, not to mention the talented Rays and Jays.
Giants, Dodgers, Nationals, Cardinals, have all proven likewise.
Pirates, with a solid MLB attendance of over 30,000 per game (and a ticket increase doubtlessly imminent), operated by an owner whose net worth has been documented at about 10th among his peers, must demonstrate a comparable approach. It is incumbent to build around the nucleus (McCutchen, Cole, Marte, Polanco, etc.) to stay competitive. Their NL Central rivals aren't tossing in the towel, and the Cubs can only improve.
It's good to see clubs like KC make a good account of themselves. Shows what wise investments (with them now at about $90 million and reports they're willing to go over $100 million in salary in 2015 to keep up with the likes of AL clubs like Seattle who'lll spend more too), and keen decision-making can achieve. Baltimore has made a simliar commitment, and must, in order to cope with the Yankees and Red Sox, not to mention the talented Rays and Jays.
Giants, Dodgers, Nationals, Cardinals, have all proven likewise.
Pirates, with a solid MLB attendance of over 30,000 per game (and a ticket increase doubtlessly imminent), operated by an owner whose net worth has been documented at about 10th among his peers, must demonstrate a comparable approach. It is incumbent to build around the nucleus (McCutchen, Cole, Marte, Polanco, etc.) to stay competitive. Their NL Central rivals aren't tossing in the towel, and the Cubs can only improve.
monessen
Footballguy
Martin may take 3 years at 13 million a season. But that may be a conservative estimate, and it may stretch what is referenced as the Pirates' "comfort zone."
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
So is Pedro going to learn 1b?
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Copeman
Footballguy
Eephus
Footballguy
I view it as a defensive move by the Pirates to depress Martin's value on the open market. He a quality player but not enough of a superstar to make other clubs forget about the compensation pick. He could end up being next year's Kendrys Morales which isn't where you want to be as a 32 year old catcher.
Nobody has ever accepted a qualifying offer under this CBA. If I were Team Martin, I'd seriously consider it.
RnR
Footballguy
monessen
Footballguy
Wow. Those were the days. Whatever happened to folks like him and Steelers4Life? Don't mean to gloat about stuff from 4 years ago, but . . . yeah, ok. I do.
I just think Sabean has proven his merit since this was composed. I like the Royals part in here. How the world has changed. Where would they be without Holland in 2014?
Balco
Footballguy
You might want to take a look at how KC built its roster. The Pirates should emulate that blueprint and it looks like they are.
Eephus
Footballguy
KC built their roster by sucking for an extended period of time. The Pirates already tried that approach.
ETA: so I come off as less of a ####. Butler, Gordon, Moustakas, Hosmer, Crow and Colon were all drafted in the top half of the first round. Cain and Escobar came over from the Brewers in exchange for another top draft pick (Greinke). Shields and Davis were traded for Wil Myers who the Royals paid well above slot as a HS draftee. I admit that the Sal Perez deal was an unusually shrew bit of business by Dayton Moore.
The draft is a viable strategy (maybe the only viable strategy) for building up an organization from the bottom up. It's a lot easier to do when you're picking early. The Rays have found it much harder to keep top prospects in the pipeline when drafting in the 20s. The Pirates (and the Royals) are in that range now.
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Balco
Footballguy
I think I was more pointing out the fact that they built the team from the farm, both through current roster and trade. Moneson appears to want the Pirates to sign some big name free agents just to get the payroll up. The question is whether Huntington can pull off a Shields/Davis type move by giving up a top major league prospect like Polanco.
monessen
Footballguy
I'm not in Eephus's or Balco's class when it comes to analyzing the sport. They are elite posters on baseball threads, and see the big picture MLS-wide. I'm just a Bucs fan tired of watching squandered opportunities and empty talk from management.
The FO self-imposed a policy of not paying 18% of the team payroll to a player. Clever, in that keeping overall salary in the low tier (the bottom 5-10 MLB teams) means their 18% is lower than any club in the division. So they can maintain their guideline or stipulation and claim they are principled spenders. Drawing nearly 2.5 million to PNC Park with Martin as the highest earner at $8.5 million in 2014 was rather nifty. To expect them to ante up for Martin and a multi-year deal now, given his market value and McCutchen's expected $10 million next season, seems to provide the FO with an out.
Is Tony Sanchez still viewed as the Bucs "catcher of the future?" There's no real confidence demonstrated in that capacity. Alvarez, once the long-term answer for third base, is in some off-season netherworld on his 2015 role. Walker is due a big raise in arbitration, but Morton's pay is about to double to $8 million. I'm not sure an $8 million salary is warranted for a injury prone underachieving starting pitcher who's averaged 21 GS a year in the past 4 seasons. If Shields truly is seeking 4 years at $16 million a season, it's not going to be in Pittsburgh.
The team has been more ad hoc that pro-active in building a contender. Stop-gap players with some gas in the tank and reclamation projects for Searage have been the norm, and for every Liriano and Volquez, there are Jonathan Sanchez and Wandy Rodriguez. Locke's been decent, but McDonald fell off the map and is possibly done in MLB. Cole is the unofficial ace, but will they make a long-term contract commitment to him commensurate with market value is uncertain.
If there is a plan a la KC, no one is quite sure what it is. it's piecemeal---just sort of a pragmatic bargain-oriented approach and praying for best-case scenario dividends.
The FO self-imposed a policy of not paying 18% of the team payroll to a player. Clever, in that keeping overall salary in the low tier (the bottom 5-10 MLB teams) means their 18% is lower than any club in the division. So they can maintain their guideline or stipulation and claim they are principled spenders. Drawing nearly 2.5 million to PNC Park with Martin as the highest earner at $8.5 million in 2014 was rather nifty. To expect them to ante up for Martin and a multi-year deal now, given his market value and McCutchen's expected $10 million next season, seems to provide the FO with an out.
Is Tony Sanchez still viewed as the Bucs "catcher of the future?" There's no real confidence demonstrated in that capacity. Alvarez, once the long-term answer for third base, is in some off-season netherworld on his 2015 role. Walker is due a big raise in arbitration, but Morton's pay is about to double to $8 million. I'm not sure an $8 million salary is warranted for a injury prone underachieving starting pitcher who's averaged 21 GS a year in the past 4 seasons. If Shields truly is seeking 4 years at $16 million a season, it's not going to be in Pittsburgh.
The team has been more ad hoc that pro-active in building a contender. Stop-gap players with some gas in the tank and reclamation projects for Searage have been the norm, and for every Liriano and Volquez, there are Jonathan Sanchez and Wandy Rodriguez. Locke's been decent, but McDonald fell off the map and is possibly done in MLB. Cole is the unofficial ace, but will they make a long-term contract commitment to him commensurate with market value is uncertain.
If there is a plan a la KC, no one is quite sure what it is. it's piecemeal---just sort of a pragmatic bargain-oriented approach and praying for best-case scenario dividends.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Why would he do that? I think there is a very good chance that Polanco will be an above average outfielder and a decent chance that he'll end up elite. I think there is a very small chance that he'll be a total bust. Why would the Pirates give up an outfielder who will be under team control for many years for a stud pitcher who may be under control for 1-2 years? In a year or 2, the Pirates may also have a rotation full of young studs (because NH didn't trade them away for rentals).
Look I get that the Royals are in the world series and Shields is definitely a big reason for that but lets not forget that this team has been lucky in a sense that they hit their stride at the right time. Their offense in the playoffs has been an anomaly compared to what they were during the regular season. This season shows that the playoffs are basically just a crap shoot due to small sample size. Shields will be gone soon and then what happens to this team? The Pirates have made the playoffs 2 years in a row now and are set up to be playoff contenders for several years because they haven't traded away their elite prospects. I'm not sure we will be saying the same about the Royals.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I actually think KC should be emulating the Pirates blueprint (despite their potential flukey WS title this year)
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
The Brewers are another smaller market team who gave up big prospects for a rental. It got them to the playoffs that year but how has that worked out for them since? I'd rather have the small market team with elite prospects and the potential to be good for 3-5 years over the team that has a 1-2 year window. It's just simple math
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I do agree with this. Martin is such an integral piece to this team's success and they have nobody even close to his level. Even if his hitting regresses (which I expect), he is still one of the best defensive catchers in the game. If there is a guy to overpay for, he is the one. Unfortunately we all know that someone is going to give him a ridiculous offer that the Pirates will not be able to match. Perhaps the Pirates will at least get something in return.
Eephus
Footballguy
The Brewers were a little different in that their window of opportunity with Prince Fielder was closing. They got two playoff runs, one with CC and one with Greinke and never really gave up an elite prospect. The best player out of both deals turned out to be Michael Brantley who was the PTBNL in the Sabathia trade but at best he projected as a 4th OF at that point.The Brewers are another smaller market team who gave up big prospects for a rental. It got them to the playoffs that year but how has that worked out for them since? I'd rather have the small market team with elite prospects and the potential to be good for 3-5 years over the team that has a 1-2 year window. It's just simple math
They were in contention for a long time this year. I don't think there was irreversible long-term damage done by them taking their shot when they did.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Ok fair enough. I thought they gave up more and forgot about their second playoff run. Regardless, do you think it's prudent for a team like the Pirates to trade away Polanco for a stud pitcher who may be under team control for a year or two?The Brewers were a little different in that their window of opportunity with Prince Fielder was closing. They got two playoff runs, one with CC and one with Greinke and never really gave up an elite prospect. The best player out of both deals turned out to be Michael Brantley who was the PTBNL in the Sabathia trade but at best he projected as a 4th OF at that point.The Brewers are another smaller market team who gave up big prospects for a rental. It got them to the playoffs that year but how has that worked out for them since? I'd rather have the small market team with elite prospects and the potential to be good for 3-5 years over the team that has a 1-2 year window. It's just simple math
They were in contention for a long time this year. I don't think there was irreversible long-term damage done by them taking their shot when they did.
Eephus
Footballguy
No, not now but situations change and an organization like Pittsburgh has to take some risks to compete.Ok fair enough. I thought they gave up more and forgot about their second playoff run. Regardless, do you think it's prudent for a team like the Pirates to trade away Polanco for a stud pitcher who may be under team control for a year or two?The Brewers were a little different in that their window of opportunity with Prince Fielder was closing. They got two playoff runs, one with CC and one with Greinke and never really gave up an elite prospect. The best player out of both deals turned out to be Michael Brantley who was the PTBNL in the Sabathia trade but at best he projected as a 4th OF at that point.The Brewers are another smaller market team who gave up big prospects for a rental. It got them to the playoffs that year but how has that worked out for them since? I'd rather have the small market team with elite prospects and the potential to be good for 3-5 years over the team that has a 1-2 year window. It's just simple math
They were in contention for a long time this year. I don't think there was irreversible long-term damage done by them taking their shot when they did.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Don't see the greatness of Polanco. Maybe he gets there, but I wouldn't get rash and throw him an extension right away. They have a lot of time with him cheap before they have to make a decision.
Eephus
Footballguy
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
monessen
Footballguy
When Tabata signed the long-term deal, many were gleeful the club wrapped him up at such a bargain based on his potential. They saw him as an everyday player, or no less than a guy earning 400 ABs per year.
Fred is right in that the Pirates guard their assets, almost frenetically, so long as they are under team control for an extended period. They aren't apt to deal Polanco for a #2 rotation starter following Cole due to prospective critical backlash for giving up a possible star. In this capacity, it's the Aramis Ramirez hangover (though that deal was mandated by owners who felt they could not afford him. I don't believe they can now, either.). This is a bit odd because the regime's had deals (trades and FAs) blow up in their faces though others have panned out. For this reason, we won't see a Shields-type acquired for a promising player. The preference is for Searage to wave the magic wand on a floundering pitcher plucked from oblivion.
Marte and Polanco are works in progress, and no one is certain how good they'll be. It was hoped Marte could lead off, but he didn't fit the bill in 2014. He might, eventually, or maybe Polanco will in time. Having those 3 at the top of the lineup would be terrific though they'd have to cut down on K's.
Though it may be honest, I'd rather not a GM say "Every off-season brings a new set of challenges." It's indirectly an admission of not being sure how to play the hand dealt or a referendum on pro-active measures. It's not like the club didn't know, months ago, what the challenges would be.
Fred is right in that the Pirates guard their assets, almost frenetically, so long as they are under team control for an extended period. They aren't apt to deal Polanco for a #2 rotation starter following Cole due to prospective critical backlash for giving up a possible star. In this capacity, it's the Aramis Ramirez hangover (though that deal was mandated by owners who felt they could not afford him. I don't believe they can now, either.). This is a bit odd because the regime's had deals (trades and FAs) blow up in their faces though others have panned out. For this reason, we won't see a Shields-type acquired for a promising player. The preference is for Searage to wave the magic wand on a floundering pitcher plucked from oblivion.
Marte and Polanco are works in progress, and no one is certain how good they'll be. It was hoped Marte could lead off, but he didn't fit the bill in 2014. He might, eventually, or maybe Polanco will in time. Having those 3 at the top of the lineup would be terrific though they'd have to cut down on K's.
Though it may be honest, I'd rather not a GM say "Every off-season brings a new set of challenges." It's indirectly an admission of not being sure how to play the hand dealt or a referendum on pro-active measures. It's not like the club didn't know, months ago, what the challenges would be.
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Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Would you rather have a GM that's completely certain of everything? The whole off-season is a tricky, fluid business for all teams.
Eephus
Footballguy
Sometimes those pre-arbitration long-term contracts come out looking great (e.g. Sal Perez) and other times they turn out like Tabata. But even Pittsburgh can write-off a $4.5M AAA player. I still think the potential upside of thoses kinds of deals justify the risks.
At the time, Tabata had solid tools and minor league resume and a successful 400+ PA major league trial. There were no obvious warning signs that he would regress. He needs a change of scenery though. It wouldn't surprise me if he plays out his two years in the Pirates organization and gets a few decent MLB seasons in somewhere else. Or maybe he'll be like Lastings Milledge. Who can tell
The oddest thing about Tabata's odd career is that his top B-R comps for his first two seasons are a 19th century player and a Federal Leaguer.
I think the club is in decent shape. The OF looks solid and some other players (Walker, Mercer) should be in their prime now. Alen Hanson had a bounceback year on the farm and could provide help in 2016. It would be nice to get something out of Pedro Alvarez but after 2000+ MLB PAs, it's foolish to still talk about potential. Pitching is the obvious question mark as it is for many teams. Another SP arm would certainly help, which explains why even mediocre innings eaters make $12M a year.
monessen
Footballguy
I'd rather have him not comment because, if you are correct, his remark is superfluous and pointless. If it isn't quite so, then he's supplying code for "I have one arm tied behind my back and can't do what's necessary." Also, in this era, that fluidity you cite underscores a revolving door of roster members each season and a time limit on present members' tenures. A bumper sticker can be sold around town------"Honk if you've played for the Pirates." The era of Jeters and Mariano Rivera resides in the archives and it ain't coming back.
We just completed the 2014 season. The 2012 Bucs had Erik Bedard, AJ Burnett, Kevin Correia, Jason Grilli, Joel Hanrahan, Chris Resop, Brad Lincoln, Dan McCutchen, Kyle McPherson, Jeff Karstens, James McDonald, Evan Meek, Chad Qualls, Wandy Rodriguez, Rod Barajas, Michael McKenry, Jeff Clement, Brock Holt, Garrett Jones, Casey McGahee, Alex Presley, Nate McLouth, Juan Cruz, Bryan Morris, Gorkys Hernandez, Chris Leroux. Turnover is the new normal, and I'm glad not to have to sew names and numbers on uniforms.
monessen
Footballguy
The team didn't have a pitcher throw 200 innings this season. Know who did? A.J. Burnett, the season-long injured Phillie hurler. Edinson Volquez was the Pirates' leader in this category and was 49th in MLB, an inning ahead of Tom Koehler. Then came Liriano, who was 88th, a mere 2/3rds of an inning ahead of Vidal Nuno.Sometimes those pre-arbitration long-term contracts come out looking great (e.g. Sal Perez) and other times they turn out like Tabata. But even Pittsburgh can write-off a $4.5M AAA player. I still think the potential upside of thoses kinds of deals justify the risks.
At the time, Tabata had solid tools and minor league resume and a successful 400+ PA major league trial. There were no obvious warning signs that he would regress. He needs a change of scenery though. It wouldn't surprise me if he plays out his two years in the Pirates organization and gets a few decent MLB seasons in somewhere else. Or maybe he'll be like Lastings Milledge. Who can tell
The oddest thing about Tabata's odd career is that his top B-R comps for his first two seasons are a 19th century player and a Federal Leaguer.
I think the club is in decent shape. The OF looks solid and some other players (Walker, Mercer) should be in their prime now. Alen Hanson had a bounceback year on the farm and could provide help in 2016. It would be nice to get something out of Pedro Alvarez but after 2000+ MLB PAs, it's foolish to still talk about potential. Pitching is the obvious question mark as it is for many teams. Another SP arm would certainly help, which explains why even mediocre innings eaters make $12M a year.
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Eephus
Footballguy
I searched back through the thread to see which side I argued on the question of Burnett. I was halfheartedly in favor of paying him but it's hard to criticize the Pirates for letting him walk. In spite of not having a 200 IP starter, they made it through the season using only eight starters. They got two cheap productive years out of Liriano and one from Volquez. But neither were sure things. Sometimes those kind of moves work out and other times they just make you Wandy. Liriano and Volquez are both FAs; Pittsburgh now has to pony up bigger bucks or scrounge up replacements. Between those two guys and the Pirates' portion of Rodriguez' contract, they have about $18M to play with. What they decide to do with it is going to have a big effect on how the 2015 season goes.The team didn't have a pitcher throw 200 innings this season. Know who did? A.J. Burnett, the season-long injured Phillie hurler. Edinson Volquez was the Pirates' leader in this category and was 49th in MLB, an inning ahead of Tom Koehler. Then came Liriano, who was 88th, a mere 2/3rds of an inning ahead of Vidal Nuno.Sometimes those pre-arbitration long-term contracts come out looking great (e.g. Sal Perez) and other times they turn out like Tabata. But even Pittsburgh can write-off a $4.5M AAA player. I still think the potential upside of thoses kinds of deals justify the risks.
At the time, Tabata had solid tools and minor league resume and a successful 400+ PA major league trial. There were no obvious warning signs that he would regress. He needs a change of scenery though. It wouldn't surprise me if he plays out his two years in the Pirates organization and gets a few decent MLB seasons in somewhere else. Or maybe he'll be like Lastings Milledge. Who can tell
The oddest thing about Tabata's odd career is that his top B-R comps for his first two seasons are a 19th century player and a Federal Leaguer.
I think the club is in decent shape. The OF looks solid and some other players (Walker, Mercer) should be in their prime now. Alen Hanson had a bounceback year on the farm and could provide help in 2016. It would be nice to get something out of Pedro Alvarez but after 2000+ MLB PAs, it's foolish to still talk about potential. Pitching is the obvious question mark as it is for many teams. Another SP arm would certainly help, which explains why even mediocre innings eaters make $12M a year.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Flipping players, especially as they get close to (true) free agency, is part and parcel of being a successful small-payroll franchise, IMO. And you're correct in that you don't have career-long guys like Jeter and Rivera, but keep in mind that Jeter was an albatross around the Yankees' neck in terms of team competitiveness over the last couple years, and they're saddled with some pretty nasty long-term deals. A team like Pittsburgh (or Oakland or Tampa) is almost at an advantage to not even have a chance to dip their toe into the top-tier free agent market, as those players very rarely produce a decent ROI, especially compared to guys who haven't yet hit true free agency.
I don't know how old you are, but I remember being gutted when Giambi signed with the Yankees, even though I knew it was an inevitability. Before the Cespedes deal*, the A's trading off Hudson and Mulder (who they got Haren and others in exchange for) and then Haren (for a massive load of prospects) and Rich Harden (who they got Josh Donaldson for, among others) kept them afloat. 3-4 prospects still isn't very sexy (it's probably gotten more sexy as of late), but small-payroll teams have to survive on depth and getting four cheap options for one position and hoping one pans out, instead of just going out and signing one surefire thing.
Winning should come before too much (or not enough) roster turnover.
* - The other day, some guy in front of Safeway asks me to sign something, sees my A's hat, and goes on an unprompted, two minute tear on how Beane is a jerk off, would never make a trade like that if he had won a WS, how he did dumb #### before he ever had sex (?), etc. I didn't bring up things like Cespedes' WAR, swinging strike rate, or even that Boston's now trying to rid themselves of him.
Balco
Footballguy
I don't think getting 2 years from a top of the rotation starter is a rental. I don't think the Royals regret giving up Myers for Shields and Davis at all (and I don't think the Rays regret it either). Sometimes, when pieces are in place, you have to make a move like that. If the Pirates determine that Josh Bell is progressing nicely, then Polanco shouldn't be untouchable. We see can't miss prospects miss all the time. For every Hanley Ramirez, there is a Cameron Maybin. The Pirates have built up their farm rather nicely. If they can get a top of the line pitcher to pair with Gerrit Cole, and have to give up Polanco to do it, they should.The Brewers are another smaller market team who gave up big prospects for a rental. It got them to the playoffs that year but how has that worked out for them since? I'd rather have the small market team with elite prospects and the potential to be good for 3-5 years over the team that has a 1-2 year window. It's just simple math
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Sure if you think their window to win is 2 years. I think if they hold onto Polanco (and their other top prospects), the window could potentially be > 2 years. I completely respect your baseball knowledge but I think you're wrong on this one. Polanco is a hold and I feel fairly strong about that. It's a moot point though because NH doesn't make those types of moves........I don't think getting 2 years from a top of the rotation starter is a rental. I don't think the Royals regret giving up Myers for Shields and Davis at all (and I don't think the Rays regret it either). Sometimes, when pieces are in place, you have to make a move like that. If the Pirates determine that Josh Bell is progressing nicely, then Polanco shouldn't be untouchable. We see can't miss prospects miss all the time. For every Hanley Ramirez, there is a Cameron Maybin. The Pirates have built up their farm rather nicely. If they can get a top of the line pitcher to pair with Gerrit Cole, and have to give up Polanco to do it, they should.The Brewers are another smaller market team who gave up big prospects for a rental. It got them to the playoffs that year but how has that worked out for them since? I'd rather have the small market team with elite prospects and the potential to be good for 3-5 years over the team that has a 1-2 year window. It's just simple math
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fred_1_15301
Footballguy
All of a sudden I'm not feeling so bad about the Pirates WC loss. Bumgarner is just filthy.
monessen
Footballguy
Quite a World Series so far. Though ratings may not reflect what's typical for the post-season classic, looks like a best of 3 ahead.
If anyone knew the Pirates' 2014 staff leader in yielding intentional walks was the DFA'd Jeanmar Gomez, I have to hand it to them. Given how few innings he threw in less consequential situations than most pitchers, it was a surprise (unless those situations were not so inconsequential). With Gomez and the overpriced Axford essentially gone, the club will have a little room to work with under their secret salary cap.
If Maddon takes the job with the Cubs, they'll have a proven guy in getting a lot out of young MLB talent.
If anyone knew the Pirates' 2014 staff leader in yielding intentional walks was the DFA'd Jeanmar Gomez, I have to hand it to them. Given how few innings he threw in less consequential situations than most pitchers, it was a surprise (unless those situations were not so inconsequential). With Gomez and the overpriced Axford essentially gone, the club will have a little room to work with under their secret salary cap.
If Maddon takes the job with the Cubs, they'll have a proven guy in getting a lot out of young MLB talent.
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Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
Martin and Liriano both get qualify offers
I can't imagine either will sign, but even if they do lose them at least they should get picks.
I can't imagine either will sign, but even if they do lose them at least they should get picks.
monessen
Footballguy
We always like it when the Pirates divest themselves of contributors before player age creeps in and the the 30 year rebuilding process for World Series contention continues. With Martin, the term "qualifying offer" ought to be amended to "unqualifying offer" if they offer him the bare minimum at 15 million for posturing purposes. No one believes the Pirates are serious bidders, so why bother? To extend a "well, we're trying" pose to gullible fans? Why insult our intelligence with a laughable ploy? Dude wants a multi-year deal in a bigger market. Just move on, and try to find a guy who can be what Tony Sanchez was supposed to.David Ross was with the Bucs 10 years ago before being shipped off for the immortal JJ Furmaniak. Maybe the juiced up Ross will return at a bargain price of 4 million per year.
Hey, James McDonald is a free again. A Searage reclamation project candidate, maybe?
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