***Official***President Donald Trump (1 Viewer)

[BeaverCleaver]

So what you said was true, but you just don't want the $1000?  Right.

She called a specific subset of Trump voters (racists, xenophobes, Islamophobes, etc.) "deplorable."  Some of those people are rural white voters. Some of them are suburban Hispanic voters.  For all I know some of them may be urban Native American voters.

Not only are you obviously lying about what Clinton herself said, but you're also making the IMO incorrect assumption that the "deplorable" characteristics Clinton described apply only- or overwhelmingly- to rural white voters.  By doing so you're denigrating those people far more than Clinton did.  You're even doing it more than Donald Trump did when he talked about how stupid the people of (largely white, largely rural) Iowa are.

Yes, send me the $1,000 and  at your mental gymnastics on this one. I NEVER implied or said her comment was directed ONLY to rural white voters.

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

Guess what...rural white voters took exception to being called deplorable.

After somebody explained to them what it meant.

 

[Henry Ford]

Do you think they would have listened?  Taken her word over Trump's? 

A few would have.  Probably enough in some of those states.  We're talking about a very small number of votes here overall - less than 100,000 spread out over multiple states.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Keeping Jesus in our schools and hating the gays?

 

 

[butcher boy]

The only way to get a Republican majority these days is for all the illegal votes to be tossed. In California, ANYONE can vote. Back in 2004, I offered my Driver’s License before signing the voter roll and was told ‘oh, we don’t ever check IDs’. Get rid of the illegal vote and you will see a permanent Republican majority....at last until this country bounces back.

 

[massraider]

The only way to get a Republican majority these days is for all the illegal votes to be tossed. In California, ANYONE can vote. Back in 2004, I offered my Driver’s License before signing the voter roll and was told ‘oh, we don’t ever check IDs’. Get rid of the illegal vote and you will see a permanent Republican majority....at last until this country bounces back.

Nobody went for your last stinky bait, so you cast another line?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tellyawhat, there was a neighbor of my in laws who had a sign up that said in big caps 'I am a deplorable' (and then in smaller lettering 'Donald Trump Supporter').

Older lady who walks her chihuahua every night.

Maybe Hillary wasn't talking about her specifically but she sure took it that way. There was zero reason to motivate the other side out of the blue.

It was a poor choice of words (especially the "half" part) that the right twisted to turn into a slam of Clinton rallying cry even though that rallying cry was based on a total fiction. the only people Clinton actually described as deplorable are people that almost all of us would agree are, in fact, deplorable.

My point isn't to defend her statement- it was obviously a strategic mistake, albeit one that pales in comparison to the dozens of things that Trump said and was able to get away with.  My point was to highlight that the way it was used by the right/ the Trump campaign was a straight up lie.

 

[Slapdash]

The only way to get a Republican majority these days is for all the illegal votes to be tossed. In California, ANYONE can vote. Back in 2004, I offered my Driver’s License before signing the voter roll and was told ‘oh, we don’t ever check IDs’. Get rid of the illegal vote and you will see a permanent Republican majority....at last until this country bounces back.

Since you're repeating this California voting lie, does this mean you are a @GrandpaRox alias or @dfsguy?  Really hard to keep up with all of these trolling aliai.  I need to know which one to add your posts to for the bracket.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

After somebody explained to them what it meant.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Yes, send me the $1,000 and  at your mental gymnastics on this one. I NEVER implied or said her comment was directed ONLY to rural white voters.

Of course you did.  The context was "why didn't she connect rural white voters."  You said it was in part because she called them deplorable. 

If you didn't mean to say that her comment was referring entirely- or at least overwhelmingly- to rural white voters, then it makes zero sense.  Why would she lose them by making a comment that wasn't directed at them?

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

A few would have.  Probably enough in some of those states.  We're talking about a very small number of votes here overall - less than 100,000 spread out over multiple states.

You're much more of an optimist than I am.  

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Of course you did.  The context was "why didn't she connect rural white voters."  You said it was in part because she called them deplorable. 

If you didn't mean to say that her comment was referring entirely- or at least overwhelmingly- to rural white voters, then it makes zero sense.  Why would she lose them by making a comment that wasn't directed at them?

 

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

 

Sorry, I forgot building the wall and keeping Muslims out.  

 

[TobiasFunke]

 

Of course.  It always comes down to that, doesn't it?  Lose an argument, resort to the when you can no longer make your case with words and cites and stuff.

I guess it's my fault for not learning my lesson.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Do you think they would have listened?  Taken her word over Trump's? 

Not sure. Promising jobs is obviously easier than delivering and I think on balance the Dem platform/ideas are still better for everyone. Clearly deficit causing tax cuts aren't going to do much for low income rural voters and cutting services is going to harm them. That message didn't get through and I think it was conveyed. I saw an analysis of Clinton's campaign speeches and she talked about jobs far more than anything else. 

But I think she lacked an actionable hook for what was going to change the accurate perception that the rural economy is being marginalized. I'm not sure free college is an appealing enough message for over 45 rural voters. 

 

[beavers]

Bingo.  

And does anyone honestly think Hillary campaigning in more rural areas would have helped one bit?  

Nope.

Hillary couldn't beat Obama in 2008 and she had even more baggage in 2016. The GOP was relentless on Benghazi and email, while obstructing Obama. This, along with Trump's data analytics, created the perfect storm for never Clinton in rural America. Trump was able to adjust his message daily and even admitted so himself recently with his experiement with "Drain the Swamp" so late in the campaign. It's a big beautiful approach to those untrusting, disenfranchised groups - telling what they want to hear (that has little or no truth to it) while creating distrust of the government and media so that those groups will continue to believe his false statements.  

I can understand and accept how this approach has worked with the rural, disenfranchised, blue collar voter. But, what I still have yet to fully understand are the subset of voters who are educated but refuse to acknowledge Trump's lack of facts, experience or anti-democratic behaviors. 

 

[Henry Ford]

You're much more of an optimist than I am.  

Llamas are well known pessimists.

All I know is that Bernie had a solid following in rural Louisiana.  He won Cameron and LaSalle Parishes in the Democratic primary and had solid showing in many others.  He did this by taking positions rural voters care about.  He got 14 delegates (out of 51) from Louisiana with less than 25% of the vote for the state.  Rural people don't care as much about gays as people think they do - they generally don't think about gays unless they have to.  They think about how to feed their kids every day.  And why things cost so much.  And why the crop they used to make a living on doesn't make a decent living anymore, and how to get the bank the last three months of mortgage, because otherwise they're losing the farm.

 

[Dickies]

This is pretty much the opposite of what I would say.  If the EC were to deny Trump the presidency, those guys would be heroes, and it would show once and for all why the EC was a good idea as one, final fail-safe against direct democracy.  

On the other hand, if electors are going to just blindly vote for the candidate who won their state, then there's really no good reason for having electors in the first place.  Just award electoral votes directly on election night and dispense with actually having electors or getting the EC together for a formal vote.  

I actually do agree with this, even though I still think the EC needs to go.  I was more pointing out that the folks who think the EC denying Trump would be treasonous now also have a reason to want it gone, albeit much different than my reasons

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

Not sure. Promising jobs is obviously easier than delivering and I think on balance the Dem platform/ideas are still better for everyone. Clearly deficit causing tax cuts aren't going to do much for low income rural voters and cutting services is going to harm them. That message didn't get through and I think it was conveyed. I saw an analysis of Clinton's campaign speeches and she talked about jobs far more than anything else. 

But I think she lacked an actionable hook for what was going to change the accurate perception that the rural economy is being marginalized. I'm not sure free college is an appealing enough message for over 45 rural voters. 

Hillary speaking in a rural area:

Hillary:  And I promise you that I will work hard to bring jobs back to your state.  

Crowd:  That's just what Obummer said, Killary!  Tell that to Ben Garzi!  

 

[Dr Oadi]

Yes.  We need to stay out of this. 

So if Russia attacks Turkey it will be cool for Trump to say #### NATO? 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I know this is the crooked New York Times, but they actually did some real reporting on the voter fraud question by actually contacting election officials in all the states.  For those interested in reading:  New York Times article on voter fraud allegations

For those that can't access or just want the summary:

But inquiries to all 50 states (every one but Kansas responded) found no states that reported indications of widespread fraud.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I actually do agree with this, even though I still think the EC needs to go.  I was more pointing out that the folks who think the EC denying Trump would be treasonous now also have a reason to want it gone, albeit much different than my reasons

Everyone playing these games with the EC should look to 2020 when Trump loses the EC.

How do you think he will behave?

 

[TobiasFunke]

 It is  to watch the mental gymnastics you try to support what you wrote. It gets to a point like this when the perfect reply is  because it's damn funny watching you. Deal with it.

Calling people deplorables hurt Hillary and rural white voters were included in that group. Where is my $1,000?

I feel the same way about what you're doing here. I've made my case clearly.  You apparently think you've done the same.  I think I'm right, so presumably do you. The only difference is I use words instead of emojis.

Here's the full Clinton quote. If you think the people she is describing are disproportionately rural white voters, or if you think that some of the people she describes would have voted for her but for the statement (the actual statement, not the lie that Trump and the GOP ran with), so be it. I choose not to stereotype rural white voters or swing voters that way:
 

"I know there are only 60 days left to make our case -- and don't get complacent, don't see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think, well, he's done this time. We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America."

"But the other basket -- and I know this because I see friends from all over America here -- I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas -- as well as, you know, New York and California -- but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."

link to full transcript

 

[TobiasFunke]

Hey Tobias, I'm starting a mental gymnastics club. Anybody who discusses anything with beavercleaver can join. Are you in? 

I tried to turn over a new leaf in keeping with Dodds' marching orders and engage on the facts and issues.  Guess I learned my lesson pretty quick.

It will be interesting when this new post-fact world turns on the people in power who created it.  I suspect, for example, that if they touch a single word of Obamacare they will be portrayed as callous slaves to the insurance companies who pushed poor people and children out into the cold to die, regardless of whether there's any truth at all to it.  Politics has always had a marketing element, but at this point it feels like it's about 99% marketing and 1% policy.

 

[Dr Oadi]

I tried to turn over a new leaf in keeping with Dodds' marching orders and engage on the facts and issues.  Guess I learned my lesson pretty quick.

It will be interesting when this new post-fact world turns on the people in power who created it.  I suspect, for example, that if they touch a single word of Obamacare they will be portrayed as callous slaves to the insurance companies who pushed poor people and children out into the cold to die, regardless of whether there's any truth at all to it.  Politics has always had a marketing element, but at this point it feels like it's about 99% marketing and 1% policy.

This has been the anti Republican election motto for Democrats for decades. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Bingo.  

And does anyone honestly think Hillary campaigning in more rural areas would have helped one bit?  

I do.  She lost those three states by just a little over 100,000 votes combined.  A few campaign appearances there instead of Arizona, and a halfway decent canvassing effort (which I read was virtually nonexistent), and she wins.  

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

It will be interesting when this new post-fact world turns on the people in power who created it.  I suspect, for example, that if they touch a single word of Obamacare they will be portrayed as callous slaves to the insurance companies who pushed poor people and children out into the cold to die, regardless of whether there's any truth at all to it.  Politics has always had a marketing element, but at this point it feels like it's about 99% marketing and 1% policy.

This seems internally inconsistent.  You say politics is 99% marketing and 1% policy, but then you point to a policy (Obamacare repeal) that you think would cause problems for the people in power.  Seems like if you're right about marketing, Obamacare repeal won't be a problem for Republicans as long as it's marketed well.

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

I do.  She lost those three states by just a little over 100,000 votes combined.  A few campaign appearances there instead of Arizona, and a halfway decent canvassing effort (which I read was virtually nonexistent), and she wins.  

Could be.  

 

[TobiasFunke]

This seems internally inconsistent.  You say politics is 99% marketing and 1% policy, but then you point to a policy (Obamacare repeal) that you think would cause problems for the people in power.  Seems like if you're right about marketing, Obamacare repeal won't be a problem for Republicans as long as it's marketed well.

Should have explained that better- I think marketing over policy inherently favors people who aren't controlling policy.  It's a lot easier to convince people that thing are going poorly than it is to convince them that things are going great.  The whole idea of marketing, whether it's about getting you to buy a new car or a new politician, is that things can/should be a lot better than they currently are.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Should have explained that better- I think marketing over policy inherently favors people who aren't controlling policy.  It's a lot easier to convince people that thing are going poorly than it is to convince them that things are going great.  The whole idea of marketing, whether it's about getting you to buy a new car or a new politician, is that things can/should be a lot better than they currently are.

I guess I'm not convinced that Obamacare repeal will significantly change the way people are voting. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

I guess I'm not convinced that Obamacare repeal will significantly change the way people are voting. 

I was just using that as a random example of an issue of substance- doesn't matter what they actually do with it, all that matters is who markets it better, and those marketing efforts apparently no longer have to have any basis in truth at all.

But yeah, I don't think any of us have a firm grasp on what makes people vote a certain way at this point.

 

[JIslander]

Nope.

Hillary couldn't beat Obama in 2008 and she had even more baggage in 2016. The GOP was relentless on Benghazi and email, while obstructing Obama. This, along with Trump's data analytics, created the perfect storm for never Clinton in rural America. Trump was able to adjust his message daily and even admitted so himself recently with his experiement with "Drain the Swamp" so late in the campaign. It's a big beautiful approach to those untrusting, disenfranchised groups - telling what they want to hear (that has little or no truth to it) while creating distrust of the government and media so that those groups will continue to believe his false statements.  

I can understand and accept how this approach has worked with the rural, disenfranchised, blue collar voter. But, what I still have yet to fully understand are the subset of voters who are educated but refuse to acknowledge Trump's lack of facts, experience or anti-democratic behaviors. 

They are still on the libtard bashing high.  We'll need smelling salts to bring'em back and realize what they did.

 

[knowledge dropper]

So if Russia attacks Turkey it will be cool for Trump to say #### NATO? 

For me it is.  I'm sick of our country doing the heavy lifting of policing half a world away.  

 

[jon_mx]

 100% Fairytale

         3 hours ago, Jackstraw said:

A full third of the stimulous was tax cuts which Republicans wanted. Obama care was modeled after plans Republicans developed including Romney care. This isn't even an opinion. These are facts

The Truth

Nope.  Republicans were critical of the stimulus for numerous reasons and outlined several things they wanted changed including tax cuts targeted at middle class instead of 'tax cuts' targeted at people who did not even pay taxes.  When the GOP presented Obama with their suggestions he laughed them off and told them "I won". 

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/01/23/obama-to-gop-i-won/

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-10-05/obama-s-self-serving-fictions-exposed

The story the MSM spins is quite different than the truth.

 

[urbanhack]

For me it is.  I'm sick of our country doing the heavy lifting of policing half a world away.  

Then you are in favor of cutting the military budget as well?

 

[Quez]

Is the electoral college going to change their votes today because of that pathetic video  celebrities made begging them to?  Lmao, I don't even recognize half of those actors.  

 

[knowledge dropper]

Then you are in favor of cutting the military budget as well?

I am in favor of our military budget being scrutinized to find the best levels that will protect our citizens at home and abroad.  There is a lot of waste that can be trimmed, as there is everywhere in government, and still not impact our preparedness. I am not a fan of deploying troops to every quagmire in the Middle East. 

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

I am in favor of our military budget being scrutinized to find the best levels that will protect our citizens at home and abroad.  There is a lot of waste that can be trimmed, as there is everywhere in government, and still not impact our preparedness. I am not a fan of deploying troops to every quagmire in the Middle East. 

What is the waste?

 

[knowledge dropper]

Is the electoral college going to change their votes today because of that pathetic video  celebrities made begging them to?  Lmao, I don't even recognize half of those actors.  

Hopefully there are repercussions coming for everyone threatening electors.  

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

For me it is.  I'm sick of our country doing the heavy lifting of policing half a world away.  

Ah yes.  International affairs are just that simple.  Good call.

 

[JaxBill]

Is the electoral college going to change their votes today because of that pathetic video  celebrities made begging them to?  Lmao, I don't even recognize half of those actors.  

Supposedly one faithless elector in Maine...who switched from Hillary to Bernie.

 

[Quez]

Hopefully there are repercussions coming for everyone threatening electors.  

All this talk about trying to influence an election only matters to the losers.

 

[Skoo]

Alec Baldwin kills it again on SNL:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdyal_osAts

Gonna be a long 4 years for Mr. Trump if he can't stop watching TV.

 

[HellToupee]

Give me a break!

You Anti-Trump guys make cracks all the time about rural white voters(rednecks as many here call them) and how they support Trump. Hillary was talking about Trump supporters when she called them deplorables and that includes rural white voters. Guess what...rural white voters took exception to being called deplorable.

Good Lord Tobias...that was one of your worst posts ever!

Seems like a very reasonable post

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

 100% Fairytale


The Truth

It's hard to compromise when one side refuses any compromise on principle. Obama/Democrats did everything they could to get Republicans on board, and the stimulus and ACA both reflect significant different policy that what Obama was elected on in a more conservative direction. 

That doesn't even start to get into the mostly common sense and bi-partisan "grand bargain" on the budget that Obama had essentially in place w/Boehner before Congressional Republicans killed it rather than give Obama even one bipartisan accomplishment. 

It would be easier to defend this stuff if Republican leaders weren't on record about their intent. As it is the question is whether or not any bipartisan work can or will happen again on a meaningful scale?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I don't disagree with most of what @Arsenal of Doom is posting, but the compromises in the ACA had to be made to get votes from some of the more right-leaning Dems like Lieberman and Baucus.     

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I don't disagree with most of what @Arsenal of Doom is posting, but the compromises in the ACA had to be made to get votes from some of the more right-leaning Dems like Lieberman and Baucus.     

That's true but they were also working really hard to get Republicans on board specifically because they didn't want to pass it without at least some bipartisan support. 

If you read through the actual legislative history you will also see a lot of work being done in committee where Republican ideas were incorporated with their support. If Republicans were interested in actual compromise they could/should have declared victory as soon as the public option fell away. 

 

[whoknew]

For me it is.  I'm sick of our country doing the heavy lifting of policing half a world away.  

So what happens if we don't uphold our obligation to defend Turkey? NATO just ceases to exist?

 

[knowledge dropper]

So what happens if we don't uphold our obligation to defend Turkey? NATO just ceases to exist?

Chances are it was one lunatic terrorist.  However, if it was supported by Turkish government, they need to answer to Russia. 

 

[knowledge dropper]

Is the electoral college going to change their votes today because of that pathetic video  celebrities made begging them to?  Lmao, I don't even recognize half of those actors.  

That was terrible.