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***Official***President Donald Trump (1 Viewer)

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timschochet said:
I have not called anyone here a bigot. 

I mad a general statement: if all the evidence we have suggests that undocumented immigrants commit less crimes than do legal citizens, yet a significant number of people continue to believe that undocumented immigrants commit more crimes than do legal citizens, then bigotry is at least one of the major reasons for this misconception. You're welcome to challenge this assertion, but I'm not attacking anybody here and I will continue to make it because I very much believe it. 
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I'm sure that repeated attribution of the worst of possible motivations to people for their beliefs will be highly effective in winning hearts and minds.

 
The other day I flipped it over to the Clinton News Network to listen to their 24 hour coverage on the Russian hacking.  They had an expert on saying how Russian hackers were the best in the world next to ours.  They then showed a fake "change your password" Google page that Podesta clicked on.

This wasn't necessarily any kind of 733t hacking performed here. They are making it sound like there is this elite group of Russian hacking :nerd: in direct command of Putin!  Because, "nothing goes on in Russia without Putin knowing about it". That was another stupid comment.  I immediately thought, "as opposed to all kinds of crap that goes on without our President knowing".  Not too comforting...

 
bigbottom said:
I'm sure that repeated attribution of the worst of possible motivations to people for their beliefs will be highly effective in winning hearts and minds.
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It isn't. I know that BB. But I'm not sure what to do about it. 

We're living in scary times right now IMO. During his campaign Donald Trump made a wide number of bigoted comments and assertions IMO, any one of which should have ended his run for President. None did, and he was elected President. This indicates to me that there is a significant percentage of people in this country who don't care about bigotry. They may not be bigots themselves but it doesn't bother them to hear it from others including their leaders. That shocked me, and frankly it scares the hell out of me, and I'm still reeling from it. 

From the bottom of my heart I truly believe that a lot of the anti-undocumented rhetoric is wrapped up in ignorance, fear, and bigotry. It is not my intent to offend anyone here or elsewhere by making that claim, but nonetheless I stand by it. To pretend that it doesn't exist would, for me, to be dishonest. 

 
So pathetic that moderate to right wing Republicans who have for so long not bought Russia's BS now are rationalizing Russia's interference in US politics. This happens 4-8 years ago with Romney or McCain running, the Republicans would be going ballistic! BALLISTIC! No excuse to roll over now for this crap.

 
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DanFouts said:
So pathetic that moderate to right wing Republicans who have for so long not bought Russia's BS now are rationalizing Russia's interference in US politics. This happens 4-8 years ago with Romney or McCain running, the Republicans would be going ballistic! BALLISTIC! No excuse to roll over now for this crap.
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Don't worry Danny, these men are nihilists.

ETA: On second thought, be worried. Be very worried.

 
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MSNBC and the Huffington Post are pushing this electoral college flipping tomorrow like its actually going to happen.  And the meltdowns continue.  :lmao:

 
timschochet said:
It isn't. I know that BB. But I'm not sure what to do about it. 

We're living in scary times right now IMO. During his campaign Donald Trump made a wide number of bigoted comments and assertions IMO, any one of which should have ended his run for President. None did, and he was elected President. This indicates to me that there is a significant percentage of people in this country who don't care about bigotry. They may not be bigots themselves but it doesn't bother them to hear it from others including their leaders. That shocked me, and frankly it scares the hell out of me, and I'm still reeling from it. 

From the bottom of my heart I truly believe that a lot of the anti-undocumented rhetoric is wrapped up in ignorance, fear, and bigotry. It is not my intent to offend anyone here or elsewhere by making that claim, but nonetheless I stand by it. To pretend that it doesn't exist would, for me, to be dishonest. 
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How long are you going to preach how personally offended Trump makes you feel? How many posts do you have with the word racist and bigot attached no matter the thread title? Where I come from that tends to lead to projection. Tim I don't want to label you a race baiter but you seem to fit the definition.

Now I want to make another point since I started this thread and it's still not locked. I have no plans of coming in here daily to argue politics. I was even gonna say to you Tim, you lead the thread. But cmon man, every post it's the same rhetoric with you. Please find a new record.

Enjoy the games today Tim, I know you like your football.

 
Widbil83 said:
MSNBC and the Huffington Post are pushing this electoral college flipping tomorrow like its actually going to happen.  And the meltdowns continue.  :lmao:
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Must be nice to be either so entitled you don't care, or so oblivious that you don't see anything wrong here. Reminds me of being a seven year old, playing under the kitchen table. Weeee!

 
Widbil83 said:
MSNBC and the Huffington Post are pushing this electoral college flipping tomorrow like its actually going to happen.  And the meltdowns continue.  :lmao:
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MTP with Podesta on, and ABC with Donna Brazile. One of them a conspiracist and the other a known cheater who somehow still is on tv as a pundit.

 
His lead is too much on the EC......but it would be money if there were at least a few flips.  The outrage from the Right/Trump supporters would be incredible.  They'd be looking to lynch the EC voters who did that. 

 
DanFouts said:
So pathetic that moderate to right wing Republicans who have for so long not bought Russia's BS now are rationalizing Russia's interference in US politics. This happens 4-8 years ago with Romney or McCain running, the Republicans would be going ballistic! BALLISTIC! No excuse to roll over now for this crap.
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I find it equally pathetic that moderate to left wing Democrats who have for so long disregarded security and poo-poohed it now are suddenly so concerned about it.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
How long are you going to preach how personally offended Trump makes you feel? How many posts do you have with the word racist and bigot attached no matter the thread title? Where I come from that tends to lead to projection. Tim I don't want to label you a race baiter but you seem to fit the definition.

Now I want to make another point since I started this thread and it's still not locked. I have no plans of coming in here daily to argue politics. I was even gonna say to you Tim, you lead the thread. But cmon man, every post it's the same rhetoric with you. Please find a new record.

Enjoy the games today Tim, I know you like your football.
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I will accept repetition as legitimate criticitism. You're right about that. I dispute the label of me as a race baiter, but I do repeat myself. 

Fair enough. Everyone who reads my posts should know what I think about this issue. I'll move on. 

 
timschochet said:
It isn't. I know that BB. But I'm not sure what to do about it. 

We're living in scary times right now IMO. During his campaign Donald Trump made a wide number of bigoted comments and assertions IMO, any one of which should have ended his run for President. None did, and he was elected President. This indicates to me that there is a significant percentage of people in this country who don't care about bigotry. They may not be bigots themselves but it doesn't bother them to hear it from others including their leaders. That shocked me, and frankly it scares the hell out of me, and I'm still reeling from it. 

From the bottom of my heart I truly believe that a lot of the anti-undocumented rhetoric is wrapped up in ignorance, fear, and bigotry. It is not my intent to offend anyone here or elsewhere by making that claim, but nonetheless I stand by it. To pretend that it doesn't exist would, for me, to be dishonest. 
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This is me trying to give you some honest feedback.

(1) You've made this same exact point 1,000 times. And have made the same point repeatedly in immigration discussions for the past 5 plus years.  At best, people are tuning you out. At worst, your continued insistence on diagnosing bigotry as a motivating factor for people's beliefs is wholly counterproductive to your attempts to educate and enlighten. 

(2) The distinction you repeatedly draw between "calling someone a bigot" and saying that "they hold bigoted beliefs" is a disingenuous exercise in semantics, IMO. I know you'll disagree and could give a lengthy response as to why there is a legitimate difference. I'm just saying that, from where I sit, it's largely a distinction without a difference in everyday discourse . 

(3) I honestly don't understand what your fascination is with rating people on the continuum of "espouses bigoted beliefs" to "that person is a bigot."  You have any number of posts where you say things like "I don't think so and so is a bigot; he is just pushing an idea in this instance that is rooted in bigotry" to "I've read enough of this person's posts here to conclude that he is a bigot" (e.g., eminence and someone else whose name escapes me).  Why the need to clarify and articulate which posters you deem to be bigots and which you deem bigot-adjacent?  It's such an odd way to interact with people. 

To sum it up, I think you can make your points far more effectively by sticking to citing the statistics and discussing the reports and debating the issues in an effort to inform and educate. Imagine if I responded to your assertions on immigration by saying that your beliefs are rooted in hating America, white guilt and political correctness. And then I kept saying it. Over and over and over.  Obviously, that wouldn't be a very effective approach. 

Again, I'm just trying to be helpful here because you bring a lot of value to these discussions. But I think your continued harping on the bigotry angle is counterproductive and contributing to the less than civil discourse by baiting people into uncivil responses. 

 
timschochet said:
I have not called anyone here a bigot. 

I mad a general statement: if all the evidence we have suggests that undocumented immigrants commit less crimes than do legal citizens, yet a significant number of people continue to believe that undocumented immigrants commit more crimes than do legal citizens, then bigotry is at least one of the major reasons for this misconception. You're welcome to challenge this assertion, but I'm not attacking anybody here and I will continue to make it because I very much believe it. 
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You can play semantics all you want but you know telling people their thoughts are bigoted is going to get you the response your deserve and why you have the reputation of tooling up every political thread. It's also a reason you get  :lmao: so often. 

 
All due respect, BB, I don't think overlooking bigoted rhetoric should be so conveniently separated from bigotry. That is not splitting hairs.

 
I think it is just sad that Michelle Obama thinks there is no hope for America after eight years of her husbands administration. The Obamas has such and opportunity to bring the racial harmony and economic prosperity they promised. 

 
Can't wait to see the whiplash when Putin turns his sights on the Cheetoh Messiah. 

 
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MaxThreshold said:
I find it equally pathetic that moderate to left wing Democrats who have for so long disregarded security and poo-poohed it now are suddenly so concerned about it.
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Seriously? I'm a moderate republican. Voted Reagan and HW bush. They would be embarrassed by Trump and his pathetic manipulation by Putin. 

 
DanFouts said:
So pathetic that moderate to right wing Republicans who have for so long not bought Russia's BS now are rationalizing Russia's interference in US politics. This happens 4-8 years ago with Romney or McCain running, the Republicans would be going ballistic! BALLISTIC! No excuse to roll over now for this crap.
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Trump needs allies.  Europe will not ally with Trump and he knows it, so he needs to look beyond Europe for an ally.  Russia fits the bill.  Europe's unwillingness to work with Trump forces the United States into collaborating with Russia.  That's how it is going to be.  Trump will begin to isolate Europe as a threat most likely.

 
Apple Jack said:
Must be nice to be either so entitled you don't care, or so oblivious that you don't see anything wrong here. Reminds me of being a seven year old, playing under the kitchen table. Weeee!
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Late entry for most bizarre post of the year right here.  

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
MTP with Podesta on, and ABC with Donna Brazile. One of them a conspiracist and the other a known cheater who somehow still is on tv as a pundit.
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It's amazing Democrats keep trotting  Podesta out there.  I saw his exchange earlier, he was almost out of breath he was so wrapped up in his own conspiracy theory.  

 
https://www.thenation.com/article/this-political-theorist-predicted-the-rise-of-trumpism-his-name-was-hunter-s-thompson/

 After following the motorcycle guys around for months, Thompson concluded that the most striking thing about them was not their hedonism but their “ethic of total retaliation” against a technologically advanced and economically changing America in which they felt they’d been counted out and left behind. Thompson saw the appeal of that retaliatory ethic. He claimed that a small part of every human being longs to burn it all down, especially when faced with great and impersonal powers that seem hostile to your very existence. In the United States, a place of ever greater and more impersonal powers, the ethic of total retaliation was likely to catch on.
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Joy-Ann Reid here gives an excellent analysis of Trump, the reasons for his victory, and how his Presidency might play out, all from a liberal perspective: 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/17/surviving-trump-s-reality-show.html

And yet I take issue with her ultimate conclusion, which is that Democrats should adopt a scorched earth policy toward Trump similar to how Republicans treated Obama. There's a lot of people suggesting this and I simply think it's a bad idea. 

First off it's not practical. Republicans had more power in 2009 than Democrats do now and in 2010 they took control of the House. Barring changes to gerrymandering, that's not going to happen to the Dems, so they are far less able to oppose Republicans now than the other way around. 

But more importantly, it's not the way things are supposed to work. Republicans, IMO, behaved irrationally with Obama. That worked for them but hurt us as a nation. We have always had deep divisions between the political parties, but we have also always had some level of bipartisanship. That seems to be fading. 

When President Trump proposes stuff that Democrats agree with they should support him. They should only oppose him when he does stuff they disagree with. That's the way it's supposed to be. There are promising signs from Chuck Shumer that that's the way it WILL be. 

 
timschochet said:
Joy-Ann Reid here gives an excellent analysis of Trump, the reasons for his victory, and how his Presidency might play out, all from a liberal perspective: 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/17/surviving-trump-s-reality-show.html

And yet I take issue with her ultimate conclusion, which is that Democrats should adopt a scorched earth policy toward Trump similar to how Republicans treated Obama. There's a lot of people suggesting this and I simply think it's a bad idea. 

First off it's not practical. Republicans had more power in 2009 than Democrats do now and in 2010 they took control of the House. Barring changes to gerrymandering, that's not going to happen to the Dems, so they are far less able to oppose Republicans now than the other way around. 

But more importantly, it's not the way things are supposed to work. Republicans, IMO, behaved irrationally with Obama. That worked for them but hurt us as a nation. We have always had deep divisions between the political parties, but we have also always had some level of bipartisanship. That seems to be fading. 

When President Trump proposes stuff that Democrats agree with they should support him. They should only oppose him when he does stuff they disagree with. That's the way it's supposed to be. There are promising signs from Chuck Shumer that that's the way it WILL be. 
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From republicans point of view, democrats behaved irrationally with how they treated Bush, and with how they passed Obamacare by using reconciliation and justifying it with "elections have consequences".  I think EVERYONE knew that if the republicans ever got the white house and congress, the payback would be enormous.  They are going to full court press their conservative agenda and shut the democrats out of everything.  The democrats should have thought about that when passing Obamacare the way they did.  But its too late now.

 
Message to Dems: The world is "literally" laughing at you. 


You Rigged the primaries and BARELY beat an old socialist. 

You took all that foreign money to buy the election in return for a pipeline. 

You censored information to the public. 

You rigged the debates. 

You ran against a rookie in the general that seemingly couldn't get out of his own way most of the time. 

You resorted to violence to intimidate voters. 

You sued to overturn voter ID laws. 

You campaigned on tax payer money. 

You tried to hack the voter rolls multiple times. 

You colluded with ALL of the "news" networks. 

You had major cities with more votes than voters. 

You made voter rolls "disappear." 

Then, you got curb stomped on election day. 

You protested the results. 

You demanded recounts and sued to get them. 

Your margin of loss WIDENED as a result of recount.

You got ##### slapped by the same Federal judges YOU appointed. 

You've resorted to threatening the lives of the electors if they don't change their vote. 

And despite all this you STILL lost. 


That sound you hear, it's the WORLD laughing at you. We're "literally" rolling on the floor laughing at you and you're too arrogant to know why. 

 
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Riversco said:
From republicans point of view, democrats behaved irrationally with how they treated Bush, and with how they passed Obamacare by using reconciliation and justifying it with "elections have consequences".  I think EVERYONE knew that if the republicans ever got the white house and congress, the payback would be enormous.  They are going to full court press their conservative agenda and shut the democrats out of everything.  The democrats should have thought about that when passing Obamacare the way they did.  But its too late now.
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:thumbup:

I just don't see how Democrats didn't see this coming.

 
Riversco said:
From republicans point of view, democrats behaved irrationally with how they treated Bush, and with how they passed Obamacare by using reconciliation and justifying it with "elections have consequences".  I think EVERYONE knew that if the republicans ever got the white house and congress, the payback would be enormous.  They are going to full court press their conservative agenda and shut the democrats out of everything.  The democrats should have thought about that when passing Obamacare the way they did.  But its too late now.
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Exactly.....Obama set the tone. Now it's their turn to have the favor returned. 

 
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