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*** Official Real Estate Forum *** (2 Viewers)

Hey Jeff,

I am looking at condos in Orange Beach or Gulf Shores AL.  Do you have any idea of the rental market there?

The home I live in now is worth 350-400K and is paid for.  Would this be a good investment?
I don't know these markets and don't want to lead you astray. Sorry.I do know that "warm and wet" markets are booms long term, as more people are heading in that direction. But your state abbreviation is AL not FL, so that hurts.

The home I live in now is worth 350-400K and is paid for.  Would this be a good investment?
:confused:
Orange Beach is on the Florida -Alabama border.http://www.orangebeachcondo.com/silverbeac.../condo/dock.jpg
The home I live in now is worth 350-400K and is paid for.  Would this be a good investment?
I don't understand the question.The house is paid for. What's the investment? Please rephrase.
My home that I live in is paid for, so I am looking for another home as a investment since I have the cash that I am not putting into my own mortgage to invest.
Ok, now I think I follow you.NEVER buy a property all cash (unless it is TEMPORARY). Long term, you want to use the leverage of a mortgage to keep yourself LIQUID. (Wall Street).

You can't rip a shingle off of a house and go buy dinner. Cash is king.

People fail to realize that cash doesn't equal equity. It costs $$ to convert equity to cash - hence costs of refinancing and closing costs.

I try to keep a property at 70-80% mortgaged. If there is too much equity you need to get some cash out.

There's also tax benefits to buying over time (mortgage interest deduction).

Use the $$ elsewhere - possibly buying more property or things that will give you more cash - and keep the rest liquid. You don't want a problem to come up and be strapped for cash because it is stuck in a house. That takes time, effort and $$ to get back out of the home.
When you say 70-80%, I'd assume you want to keep it somewhere below the PMI cutoff, right? Maybe within 10% of that. What about in a primary residence. Is there any benefit in paying it down further.For instance. Wife and I have 30k in the bank from our last home sale. We have a house that will be completed within 2 week (new stick built construction) that was appraised at $250k before construction began. By doing some of the work myself, I am thinking that our final bill is going to come in at around $210,000 or so. If the appraisal can get me beyond that PMI threshold, are you saying I am probably best off holding on to the all of my savings instead of using it as a down payment?

If I understand this correctly, I get a couple of benefits from this:

1. I pay more in interest and get to write all of that interest off.

2. I get to forego the opportunity cost of using that money. It stays liquid and I can use that for improving the property or investing.

Am I following correctly? Also, if I pay this mortgage down to say $175k, is it advisable to draw money out of it in a HELOC if I need to use it for investment?

 
Hey Jeff,

I am looking at condos in Orange Beach or Gulf Shores AL. Do you have any idea of the rental market there?

The home I live in now is worth 350-400K and is paid for. Would this be a good investment?
I don't know these markets and don't want to lead you astray. Sorry.I do know that "warm and wet" markets are booms long term, as more people are heading in that direction. But your state abbreviation is AL not FL, so that hurts.

The home I live in now is worth 350-400K and is paid for. Would this be a good investment?
:confused:
Orange Beach is on the Florida -Alabama border.http://www.orangebeachcondo.com/silverbeac.../condo/dock.jpg
The home I live in now is worth 350-400K and is paid for. Would this be a good investment?
I don't understand the question.The house is paid for. What's the investment? Please rephrase.
My home that I live in is paid for, so I am looking for another home as a investment since I have the cash that I am not putting into my own mortgage to invest.
Ok, now I think I follow you.NEVER buy a property all cash (unless it is TEMPORARY). Long term, you want to use the leverage of a mortgage to keep yourself LIQUID. (Wall Street).

You can't rip a shingle off of a house and go buy dinner. Cash is king.

People fail to realize that cash doesn't equal equity. It costs $$ to convert equity to cash - hence costs of refinancing and closing costs.

I try to keep a property at 70-80% mortgaged. If there is too much equity you need to get some cash out.

There's also tax benefits to buying over time (mortgage interest deduction).

Use the $$ elsewhere - possibly buying more property or things that will give you more cash - and keep the rest liquid. You don't want a problem to come up and be strapped for cash because it is stuck in a house. That takes time, effort and $$ to get back out of the home.
When you say 70-80%, I'd assume you want to keep it somewhere below the PMI cutoff, right? Maybe within 10% of that. What about in a primary residence. Is there any benefit in paying it down further.
Yes.
For instance. Wife and I have 30k in the bank from our last home sale. We have a house that will be completed within 2 week (new stick built construction) that was appraised at $250k before construction began. By doing some of the work myself, I am thinking that our final bill is going to come in at around $210,000 or so. If the appraisal can get me beyond that PMI threshold, are you saying I am probably best off holding on to the all of my savings instead of using it as a down payment?

If I understand this correctly, I get a couple of benefits from this:

1. I pay more in interest and get to write all of that interest off.

2. I get to forego the opportunity cost of using that money. It stays liquid and I can use that for improving the property or investing.

Am I following correctly?
2 for 2.
 
Also, if I pay this mortgage down to say $175k, is it advisable to draw money out of it in a HELOC if I need to use it for investment?
Never been a fan of buying down mortgages. I prefer to keep the property cash flowing and use the cash to buy more property / assets.HELOCs are nice. Blank check - use it when you need it. Even if it costs $500, wouldn't you spend that to have the availability of $75K?

 
Also, if I pay this mortgage down to say $175k, is it advisable to draw money out of it in a HELOC if I need to use it for investment?
Never been a fan of buying down mortgages. I prefer to keep the property cash flowing and use the cash to buy more property / assets.HELOCs are nice. Blank check - use it when you need it. Even if it costs $500, wouldn't you spend that to have the availability of $75K?
The only place I could see keeping the cash out of the building would be down the road when we look to sell it. As I mentioned earlier (not that you'd remember as it's a big thread) I live in an area that just isn't booming and probably won't boom as far as property values and stuff like that. So the only place I can see your advise of keeping the cash flowing would be when we finally go to sell this place (probably 15 years from now). But I do see your point. This is the exact opposite of what my dad is doing. He divorced a couple of years ago and is really pounding his mortgage down. He keeps saying that he'll be debt free in X more payments. Looking at this from your perspective, this is the equivalent of stuffing mattresses with money. You don't get anything for it except security. Of course he is getting close to retirement age and might just want to minimize his bills too.

Anyway, great advice. I love getting advice from objective 3rd parties.

 
Also, if I pay this mortgage down to say $175k, is it advisable to draw money out of it in a HELOC if I need to use it for investment?
Never been a fan of buying down mortgages. I prefer to keep the property cash flowing and use the cash to buy more property / assets.HELOCs are nice. Blank check - use it when you need it. Even if it costs $500, wouldn't you spend that to have the availability of $75K?
The only place I could see keeping the cash out of the building would be down the road when we look to sell it. As I mentioned earlier (not that you'd remember as it's a big thread) I live in an area that just isn't booming and probably won't boom as far as property values and stuff like that. So the only place I can see your advise of keeping the cash flowing would be when we finally go to sell this place (probably 15 years from now). But I do see your point. This is the exact opposite of what my dad is doing. He divorced a couple of years ago and is really pounding his mortgage down. He keeps saying that he'll be debt free in X more payments. Looking at this from your perspective, this is the equivalent of stuffing mattresses with money. You don't get anything for it except security. Of course he is getting close to retirement age and might just want to minimize his bills too.

Anyway, great advice. I love getting advice from objective 3rd parties.
Just adding my two cents. Glad to help.
 
Most of the Charlotte market just broke loose in a major way. Last summer you could find $70-$85 / sf houses everywhere. Inventory dried up over the winter and not everything is $100+ / sf. I'm hearing about bidding wars that have basically never existed here. The reason I mention this is that I don't see this being driven solely by demand. I think the gas prices and cost of materials have finally flowed through the pipeline and hit new construction, hence pulling everything else along. Many of you may be in flat markets the resembled this one which may be lagging. I wouldn't hesitate to add real estate to your portfolio if you see a significant delta between the cost of new home construction and homes built from 2000-2004 that are available for sale. With interest rates climbing, people will be forced to start looking a cheaper used homes once again. I'd suggest surveying new home construction costs closely to see if something similiar is about to happen in your market. I'm not sure what the lowest $ / sf rates are around the country, but we're at $100 / sf with a heavy mexican labor force in place.

 
Most of the Charlotte market just broke loose in a major way. Last summer you could find $70-$85 / sf houses everywhere. Inventory dried up over the winter and not everything is $100+ / sf. I'm hearing about bidding wars that have basically never existed here. The reason I mention this is that I don't see this being driven solely by demand. I think the gas prices and cost of materials have finally flowed through the pipeline and hit new construction, hence pulling everything else along. Many of you may be in flat markets the resembled this one which may be lagging. I wouldn't hesitate to add real estate to your portfolio if you see a significant delta between the cost of new home construction and homes built from 2000-2004 that are available for sale. With interest rates climbing, people will be forced to start looking a cheaper used homes once again. I'd suggest surveying new home construction costs closely to see if something similiar is about to happen in your market. I'm not sure what the lowest $ / sf rates are around the country, but we're at $100 / sf with a heavy mexican labor force in place.
That's a nice perspective.Welcome to the hot markets.

Over the next 10-20 years, the South is the growth area (Maryland to Florida, diagonally to Texas). Think mostly "Warm and Wet" states and you have a growth / migration area.

This isn't just me - USA Today covered this last year I believe, backed up with US Census Bureau and other data.

Other areas are Arizona and California, but mostly the South will show the most growth.

As for Maryland, $100/sq.ft. is about right for new construction.

 
This brings an interesting point.... with the $ per SqFt rising, do you see a ceiling for the new Hot Market Areas? And how fast until it levels off?

I am in Cary, NC. Just south of the Research Triangle Park area. It was rated as 1 of the Top 5 Places to Live in US 4 of the last 5 years (USA Today IIRC)

The area that is developing too fast for my liking. I bought my house in 96 for $150K It's about 1700 sf ($88/sf). My neighbor sold theirs (1640 sf) for $196K ($120/sf). 5 Days on the market!!!

Is this just the start of the market climb and where would be a good value point to jump off? I have seen this in other areas but I have not been involved in it before.... We are considering a larger (older) house.

 
I'd just like to ask other sellers if it's as common as I'm getting the impression it is that they had a home inspector who not only left things somewhat in disarray (annoying since I'm still entertaining "backup" offers ie still showing the house) but left lights on and even went as far as leaving an outside door unlocked. BBB here I come. POS.

 
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Quick question...

Both the wife and I have a solid credit histories but a lot of debt right now. The wife and I would like to get out of renting and into owning a condo here in Chicago. I'm a solid earner but the wife is a year from finishing grad school (with schoo loans kicking in afterwards). If our combined debt is $$, would we get shot down for pre-approval until we got our debt down to, say, only $?

 
This brings an interesting point.... with the $ per SqFt rising, do you see a ceiling for the new Hot Market Areas? And how fast until it levels off?

I am in Cary, NC. Just south of the Research Triangle Park area. It was rated as 1 of the Top 5 Places to Live in US 4 of the last 5 years (USA Today IIRC)

The area that is developing too fast for my liking. I bought my house in 96 for $150K It's about 1700 sf ($88/sf). My neighbor sold theirs (1640 sf) for $196K ($120/sf). 5 Days on the market!!!

Is this just the start of the market climb and where would be a good value point to jump off? I have seen this in other areas but I have not been involved in it before.... We are considering a larger (older) house.
There's no rule of thumb as to when it is too expensive per sq.ft. or what a ceiling will likely be. Manhattan is WAY more expensive due to its desirable location for business.A point to jump off is nearly impossible to predict, but I believe NC is on the rising side of the growth curve, and I would ride it up for a few years.

 
It's really interesting to get different perspectives from around the country. property around here is well over $200/sqft. I may be buying into a new construction condo development (very niche) that's looking at around $400/sqft right now.
I agree with this - National perspective is valuable, even when real estate is highly localized.
 
I'd just like to ask other sellers if it's as common as I'm getting the impression it is that they had a home inspector who not only left things somewhat in disarray (annoying since I'm still entertaining "backup" offers ie still showing the house) but left lights on and even went as far as leaving an outside door unlocked. BBB here I come. POS.
Not really, no. Not the best inspector. I'd hate to see what his report looked like.I like to get references, and even better is a sample home inspection report. The bigger / more detail the better.

 
Quick question...

Both the wife and I have a solid credit histories but a lot of debt right now. The wife and I would like to get out of renting and into owning a condo here in Chicago. I'm a solid earner but the wife is a year from finishing grad school (with schoo loans kicking in afterwards). If our combined debt is $$, would we get shot down for pre-approval until we got our debt down to, say, only $?
That's hard to say - proninja may advise you better than I.Debt is a factor, as is credit scores. You can get an idea of what your situation is and what you need to do (if anything) in the next year or so to be able to buy your first home by speaking with a good loan broker.

 
It's really interesting to get different perspectives from around the country. property around here is well over $200/sqft. I may be buying into a new construction condo development (very niche) that's looking at around $400/sqft right now.
OUCH! :eek: $200 to $400 /sqft! But I guess each market area has it's own "value" for what the market will pay.

I realize my area is still on the upswing of the market trend. Things could grow too much for me to want to stay in the area I am currently located, but it's hard to give up what I have! I like it for a reason.... so I guess others are seeing the value now too....

 
It's really interesting to get different perspectives from around the country. property around here is well over $200/sqft. I may be buying into a new construction condo development (very niche) that's looking at around $400/sqft right now.
OUCH! :eek: $200 to $400 /sqft! But I guess each market area has it's own "value" for what the market will pay.

I realize my area is still on the upswing of the market trend. Things could grow too much for me to want to stay in the area I am currently located, but it's hard to give up what I have! I like it for a reason.... so I guess others are seeing the value now too....
The South is the growth area for the foreseeable future (10-25 years)."Warm and wet" states. Despite humidity and hurricanes. 80% of the areas are cheap in comparison to California or the Mid-Atlantic region. Believe me, I know - I lived in California for 4 years (time served) and grew up in NJ - now in Maryland. Mississippi, Georgia, the Carolinas - all have beautiful areas that are inexpensive to live.

 
Rookie Question:

What is the typical average on closing costs, and what are all the different aspects of it ? Could you explain what I would be paying for in the closing costs ?

 
Rookie Question:

What is the typical average on closing costs, and what are all the different aspects of it ? Could you explain what I would be paying for in the closing costs ?
Depends on what state you live in.You need to bring the property to "free and clear" status - so you will owe anything that a city, county, state, or other agency would want for the property. Taxes could be over a year, water bills, etc. etc.

Maryland is high, and I budget about 4% for a closing just to be safe. That covers transfer taxes, recording fees, etc. that will chew up $$ in fees.

A title company / underwriter / loan broker will likely charge about 1% (or 1 point) in some way shape or form to get the loan done. That's not that out of the ordinary. You can pinch here and there, but 1% isn't so bad to get the deal done. As for your state and local costs, they won't vary from closing agent to closing agent (or loan broker to loan broker). They are fixed costs and invariable. If you can get a "sample HUD1" or a "GFE", which is a "Good Faith Estimate" on a property you'll have a better understanding of the costs.

Loan brokers make $$ either in the rate or the points. You may see it, you may not. If this is for your own home (or really even if it isn't) shop around to banks, brokers, anyone who lends on real estate. Loan products vary widely. Want a low payment for 5 years? Interest only? They exist. They may cost more (points) but they are out there.

I'll look for a link for typical closing costs by state. Good question. :thumbup:

 
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Wall Street Journal Article Hot Homes Get ColdIn Once-Booming MarketsSuch as the Florida Coast,Housing Sales LanguishBy MICHAEL CORKERYApril 12, 2006; Page B1MIAMI -- Todd Linsley, a 37-year-old investor, bought a three-bedroom house in Stuart, Fla., for about $318,000 in late 2005. His original plan was to quickly flip the property -- which is in a new housing development about 40 miles north of West Palm Beach -- by selling it for as high as $425,000. But when he saw that the market was turning, he decided to list the home for $379,900. It's been on the market since early January with no takers.Mr. Linsley says home builders keep discounting unsold houses in the neighborhood -- sometimes axing as much as $100,000 off the original asking price. He says he can't afford to go that low. "If I got in a jam I would have to drop the price, but I am not at that point," he says.So now he's renting his investment house out for $1,000 a month, while paying a $2,045 monthly mortgage and a $108 monthly homeowner's association fee. "My Plan B was always to rent it out. I am not going to lose my shirt," says Mr. Linsley, a salesman for a medical-products company.1 Mr. Linsley is far from the only housing-market investor who has been forced to go to Plan B in recent months. Many cities that experienced fast run-ups in home prices during the past five years are now seeing sales cool the fastest.Homes that just last year were selling so rapidly that they stayed on the market for just days or even hours -- condominiums on the Florida coastline, desert haciendas in California and Arizona, town houses in Washington, D.C. -- are now languishing without buyers or even prospects. Many once-booming markets are seeing double-digit declines in sales.Home sales have been slowing for several months, but real-estate agents in some of these formerly red-hot markets have been surprised at how suddenly market conditions have deteriorated in the past few months.The Florida Association of Realtors reported recently that sales of existing single-family homes were down about 20% in February when compared to the same month a year ago -- and they were off as much as 47% in Naples. In California, sales dropped 15% in February compared with last year, led by a 30% decline in Sacramento, according to the California Association of Realtors. February sales were off year over year by about 19% in Washington, D.C., and down about 25% in and around Phoenix.Nationally, housing sales are a mixed picture. While nationwide sales of existing homes increased 5.2% from January to February on a seasonably adjusted basis, new-home sales dropped 10.5%. Right now, economists say the housing market will have only a modest negative impact on the overall economy, which has been robust. They note that while sales are slackening, they aren't collapsing -- they are, in many cases, simply settling into a normal market pace. Inventories are rising but they haven't reached an alarming amount. And while demand for homes is easing off in markets that previously sizzled, they are posting gains in cities where prices are still considered bargains, including Indianapolis, Albuquerque, N.M., and Houston.WALL STREET JOURNAL VIDEO5 WSJ's Michael Corkery discusses6 falling real estate values in hot cities.But for cities like Fort Lauderdale, Fla., Phoenix and San Diego, the dropoff in sales and rising supply of homes on the market could soon put downward pressure on prices."In some places prices might fall. In others, price gains will slow," says David Berson, chief economist at Fannie Mae, the mortgage-finance company. The price gains over the past five years, which caused home values to double in many of the hottest markets, "were not sustainable," he says.The current slowdown reflects three broad trends, according to real-estate agents and economists. One of the most important is that many speculators have started to dump homes that were purchased as investments. In addition, high prices and rising interest rates have reduced affordability for middle-class families. Finally, the intensity of recent hurricanes has prompted potential buyers of second homes to pull back in places like Florida. Some even blame media coverage that has warned of a possible downturn for triggering a real downturn.Nowhere are these trends more vivid than in Florida. There were more building permits issued for single-family and multi-family homes in Florida last year than in any other state, according to the National Association of Home Builders. Five of the 10 metropolitan areas with the strongest one-year price appreciation last year were in Florida, the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight reports."You could consider Florida to be ground zero for the housing market," says Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com, an economic consulting firm in West Chester, Pa. He says the factors that caused the housing market to overheat nationwide -- such as "creative financing" offered to credit-risky buyers -- were exacerbated in Florida. "There were more lenders, more realtors, more foreign investors," than anyplace else, he says.How investors react will have a big impact on how Florida's correction will unfold. According to San Francisco-based LoanPerformance, which tracks mortgages nationwide, 15% of Florida homes last year were purchased by investors, the most of any state. Investors are also critical, economists say, because in a slowing market they could be quicker to drop their prices to cut their losses than typical homeowners.Speculative buying helped drive up prices in many Florida cities and shut out many nonspeculative buyers. Recent upticks in interest rates have put homeownership even further out of reach.To be sure, the slowing in Florida could prove to be temporary. The state remains one of the fastest growing in the nation. It's growing, on average, by 1,000 people a day. Florida's economy is relatively strong and it continues to create new jobs. And while many Florida cities are seeing declines in sales, a smaller group of Florida markets is holding steady. Sales in Jacksonville were essentially unchanged in February year over year, and they were up in Tallahassee. But in many other parts of the state "things have slowed to a crawl," says Mike Morgan, a broker in Stuart, Fla.Another factor that may be affecting sales is the appearance of some investor-dominated housing developments, some of which were built with minimal landscaping next to highways, cemeteries and mobile-home parks. Several of the housing developments snapped up by investors now look like ghost towns, with "For Sale" or "For Rent" signs in many windows. In some cases, the builders "were building for investors, not for homeowners," says Mr. Morgan, who is trying to resell several investor-owned homes with mixed success.About a year ago, when the market was stronger, Mr. Morgan sold homes to several out-of-state investors, who never saw the property in person. "It's really no different from the dot-com [bust]," Mr. Morgan says. "The people who bought the [low-quality homes] got clobbered." He says he refused to sell poor-quality homes to his clients. "If I didn't have any ethics, I could have made a million dollars last year."The swelling supply of condominiums is also causing concern. In Miami-Dade County alone, there are roughly 70,000 new condos either under construction or nearing construction, and an additional 25,000 units that have been announced but don't have final approval, says Michael Cannon, managing director at Integra Realty Resources-south Florida, which analyzes the local market."We believe that the condo market is more distressed," says Hank Fishkind, principal at Orlando-based Fishkind & Associates, an economic and financial consultant. "We are seeing a mismatch in timing. The projects started two years ago -- the delivery is accelerating, while closings are slowing."Adding to that supply are the rental apartments that have been converted into condominiums. Mr. Cannon says roughly 150,000 rental apartments in South Florida have been converted or have begun to be converted to condos in recent years. Typically, the condo converter buys the rental unit, renovates it and then sells it to an individual, often an investor.Paul Zani, an investor, is trying to resell two converted units he purchased in Orlando. He bought one condo unit in November for $137,000 and had it listed for $185,000; he bought the other for $147,000 and it was listed for $195,000. But he's been unable to resell either one. "We will probably come down on the price," says Mr. Zani, who lives in Nashville, Tenn. Some pockets of the condo market may fare better than others. Mr. Cannon says parts of Miami's downtown business district and the area north of downtown, which aren't directly on the ocean, "have the signs of being overbuilt. The jury is still out. We have to wait until they are completed," he says. Meantime, John Warsing, a broker of high-end Miami-area condos at Turnberry International Realty in Aventura, Fla., says "anything oceanfront is going to be fine," in part because well-heeled consumers from across the world are attracted to buying oceanfront property.Other problems are rattling Florida's market. Home-insurance costs are rising, after the active hurricane season of the past few years. And real-estate agents say some homeowners are spooked by the storms themselves."A lot of people have that view of New Orleans in their minds and they are getting nervous. They are putting houses on the market," says Melissa Watkins, a sales agent with Michael Saunders & Co., near Sarasota. "They are not living here full time and [their home] is an investment. They want to pull their money out and hold on it."Ms. Watkins says sales are slow, inventory is rising and listing prices are being reduced slightly. She says one recent deal almost fell through at the last minute when the buyer balked at the insurance premiums on a high-end, waterfront home.Some Floridians blame the media and even Wall Street for scaring people away. Mr. Linsley recalled a headline in a local paper declaring that the local housing market was overvalued. The headline type was so bold that it looked as if the nation had just declared war. "The media is killing the investors," Mr. Linsley says.Despite the current turmoil, some Floridians remain bullish, including Stuart Miller, the chief executive officer of Miami-based Lennar, one of the largest home builders in the U.S. But Mr. Morgan, the broker, says for him the market has slowed considerably. He wrote in an email late last week that "we went three days this week with not a single showing. That's incredible. I have 35 listings. We usually get 2-6 showings a day....I received more desperate calls from sellers than ever. One lady broke down into tears. Her husband bought two investment properties, and they are now going to lose their 'life savings' if they sell the homes in today's market."
There have been a few times I wasn't happy to be in a market with ZERO appreciation, but you can buy a place with even as high as $500.00 a month in cash flow. This is not one of those times.
 
There have been a few times I wasn't happy to be in a market with ZERO appreciation, but you can buy a place with even as high as $500.00 a month in cash flow.

This is not one of those times.
Huh?
 
There have been a few times I wasn't happy to be in a market with ZERO appreciation, but you can buy a place with even as high as $500.00 a month in cash flow.

This is not one of those times.
Huh?
When a market isn't appreciating, it's easier to get a property at a price where the mortgage is up to $500 lower than the going rent. Make sense now?
:thumbup: Thanks.
 
Quick question...

Both the wife and I have a solid credit histories but a lot of debt right now. The wife and I would like to get out of renting and into owning a condo here in Chicago. I'm a solid earner but the wife is a year from finishing grad school (with schoo loans kicking in afterwards). If our combined debt is $$, would we get shot down for pre-approval until we got our debt down to, say, only $?
Here's the cool thing - you can get the loan with you being the only borrower - therefore her debt doesn't matter at all. You can still have her on title to the property, but her name won't be on the loan.Even with her debt, if you've got solid credit you shouldn't have any trouble securing a loan. It's just a question of what you can afford.
Thanks as always proninja.
 
Ok guys, my turn to ask a question. I'm looking for another piece of property right now, and I ran across this on Craigslist, and I'd like some help deciphering it.

The Ad

INVESTMENT PROPERTY, NOT MEANT FOR OWNER OCCUPANCY

BRAND NEW HOME IN SNOQUALMIE RIDGE

OWNER FINANCING, NO BANK NEEDED, NOTHING SHOWS UP IN YOUR CREDIT REPORT

RENT COVERS ALL EXPENSES ASSUMING YOU PUT DOWN 20%

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE DOWN PAYMENT, OWNER WILL FINANCE DOWN PAYMENT ALSO (SEE BELOW)

5-YEAR LOAN TERM WITH A BALOON PAYMENT AT THE END

RENTED TO MICROSOFT EMPLOYEE LONG TERM TENANT FOR 5-YEARS TILL YEAR 2010

HOME PRICED $525,000, COMPARABLE SALES PROVIDED UPON REQUEST

POSSIBILITIES

1. PAY 20% DOWN, PAY NOTHING FOR 5-YEARS (RENT COVERS ALL EXPENSES), PAY $425K AT THE END OF 5-YEARS

2. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE 20% TO PUT DOWN, PAY 10k DOWN, PAY $2000.00 PER MONTH FOR 5-YARS, AT THE END OF 5-YEARS PAY $425k
Is this guy really saying that you only need $100k to secure a $525 property for five years? Is this really $425k of no interest, no payment money for five years, or am I on crack? I sent an email to the guy, and we'll see what he has to say. My guess is that he's asking for a good bit more than the property's worth, bu heck - if the place is only worth $500k right now, I'll happily overpay to get $425k of free money for five years. The rent has to be at least $2k. . .Anyway, at first glance this looks too good to be true. Someone help me out here.
RENT COVERS ALL EXPENSES ASSUMING YOU PUT DOWN 20%What expenses??? The interest he'll be charging on the $425K???

 
Ok guys, my turn to ask a question.  I'm looking for another piece of property right now, and I ran across this on Craigslist, and I'd like some help deciphering it.

The Ad

INVESTMENT PROPERTY, NOT MEANT FOR OWNER OCCUPANCY

BRAND NEW HOME IN SNOQUALMIE RIDGE

OWNER FINANCING, NO BANK NEEDED, NOTHING SHOWS UP IN YOUR CREDIT REPORT

RENT COVERS ALL EXPENSES ASSUMING YOU PUT DOWN 20%

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE DOWN PAYMENT, OWNER WILL FINANCE DOWN PAYMENT ALSO (SEE BELOW)

5-YEAR LOAN TERM WITH A BALOON PAYMENT AT THE END

RENTED TO MICROSOFT EMPLOYEE LONG TERM TENANT FOR 5-YEARS TILL YEAR 2010

HOME PRICED $525,000, COMPARABLE SALES PROVIDED UPON REQUEST

POSSIBILITIES

1. PAY 20% DOWN, PAY NOTHING FOR 5-YEARS (RENT COVERS ALL EXPENSES), PAY $425K AT THE END OF 5-YEARS

2. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE 20% TO PUT DOWN, PAY 10k DOWN, PAY $2000.00 PER MONTH FOR 5-YARS, AT THE END OF 5-YEARS PAY $425k
Is this guy really saying that you only need $100k to secure a $525 property for five years? Is this really $425k of no interest, no payment money for five years, or am I on crack? I sent an email to the guy, and we'll see what he has to say. My guess is that he's asking for a good bit more than the property's worth, bu heck - if the place is only worth $500k right now, I'll happily overpay to get $425k of free money for five years. The rent has to be at least $2k. . .Anyway, at first glance this looks too good to be true. Someone help me out here.
RENT COVERS ALL EXPENSES ASSUMING YOU PUT DOWN 20%What expenses??? The interest he'll be charging on the $425K???
The way I read it, I would interepret it as... He currently has the placed rented for 5 years, he's willing to sell you the property for a 5 year loan in which you give him 20% now, pay him interest for 5 years out of the money you will collect for rent and then pay him $425K at the end, at which point you also have to find a new renter.
 
You guys are correct. It's a purchase option. He bought it for $414 a couple weeks ago, looking for some quick cash.
So if I read this right (and for the non-investor audience):He bought it for $414K.

It is rented to cover the mortgage for 5 years.

He wants someone to pay $100K today for the option to pay $425K more in 5 years to pay the house off.

That is a $100K option (long-term option) to buy the house for $525K total.

So if the place is worth $414K today and increases in value 5% a year for 5 years, that'll make the place worth 27.6% more in 2011. (1.05 raised to the 5th power gives 27.6% increase, more than 5% a year because the interest / increase in value is compounded).

127.6% of 414K is 528K.

So you're not really making more than 5% on your money with far more risk than a CD.

 
Option 2:

$10K down

$2K a month for 5 years (60 months)

$425K in 5 years.

So you're "floating" the difference of the down payment. In other words, you are REALLY financing the difference ($100K - $10K = 90K) to be paid off in 5 years.

So what does 90K in 5 years at $2K a month translate to?

Using one of my favorite apps, Karl's Mortgage Calculator, I get this:

$90,000

5 years

12%

Payment = $2,002.00

That's close enough for me (actual answer is 11.956%, but who cares).

You're paying 12% on the $$ for an option.

The guy is pretty slick if he sells it. I like the technique. :thumbup:

Nice way to get $$ today for a rental.

I'd be damn sure to make certain that he has to keep the place rented and he was responsible for upkeep and condition.

 
Quick question...

Both the wife and I have a solid credit histories but a lot of debt right now. The wife and I would like to get out of renting and into owning a condo here in Chicago. I'm a solid earner but the wife is a year from finishing grad school (with schoo loans kicking in afterwards). If our combined debt is $$, would we get shot down for pre-approval until we got our debt down to, say, only $?
Here's the cool thing - you can get the loan with you being the only borrower - therefore her debt doesn't matter at all. You can still have her on title to the property, but her name won't be on the loan.Even with her debt, if you've got solid credit you shouldn't have any trouble securing a loan. It's just a question of what you can afford.
thanks for the counsel. i'll look into this....
 
Option 2:

$10K down

$2K a month for 5 years (60 months)

$425K in 5 years.

So you're "floating" the difference of the down payment. In other words, you are REALLY financing the difference ($100K - $10K = 90K) to be paid off in 5 years.

So what does 90K in 5 years at $2K a month translate to?

Using one of my favorite apps, Karl's Mortgage Calculator, I get this:

$90,000

5 years

12%

Payment = $2,002.00

That's close enough for me (actual answer is 11.956%, but who cares).

You're paying 12% on the $$ for an option.

The guy is pretty slick if he sells it. I like the technique. :thumbup:

Nice way to get $$ today for a rental.

I'd be damn sure to make certain that he has to keep the place rented and he was responsible for upkeep and condition.
I think it's a horrible deal, but I was nice to him in refusing because I want to know if he gets it done or not.
You have to like the creativity. proninja let us know if he does pull that off.
 
Gents:

I posted the following in another thread, but proninja suggested I would be better off posting it in here since the real estate gurus tend to check here the most -- thanks for any input you can give:

I found my way to this site today, and I have some questions on the subject of real estate investments.

The site has a bunch of investment properties listed that seem too good to be true. When you look at the numbers they set out for the annual rent and expenses, and then you punch out some quick mortgage payment calculations online, it seems that I could very easily take out $30k as a home equity loan against my current apartment as a down payment on one of these properties and very easily cover the mortgage, monthly expenses, etc.

Is that website just a big sales pitch, or are the numbers realistic? Am I missing something? The only way I can fathom it not being a smart move is, for example, if the building ends up requiring a ton of work and becomes a big money pit.

Additionally, how plausible would it be to own an investment property that is far away? I'm in NYC and the properties on this site are in mid/upstate New York. Do the management companies handle everything (I know they do renting, but what about maintanance/repairs, etc.?)

Thanks for any info I can get here. This stuff is all new to me and it just seems a little too good to be true, that I could just put down a small down payment, collect $1k or more in monthly income, and own a free house in 30 years.

 
Gents:

I posted the following in another thread, but proninja suggested I would be better off posting it in here since the real estate gurus tend to check here the most -- thanks for any input you can give:

I found my way to this site today, and I have some questions on the subject of real estate investments.

The site has a bunch of investment properties listed that seem too good to be true. When you look at the numbers they set out for the annual rent and expenses, and then you punch out some quick mortgage payment calculations online, it seems that I could very easily take out $30k as a home equity loan against my current apartment as a down payment on one of these properties and very easily cover the mortgage, monthly expenses, etc.

Is that website just a big sales pitch, or are the numbers realistic? Am I missing something? The only way I can fathom it not being a smart move is, for example, if the building ends up requiring a ton of work and becomes a big money pit.

Additionally, how plausible would it be to own an investment property that is far away? I'm in NYC and the properties on this site are in mid/upstate New York. Do the management companies handle everything (I know they do renting, but what about maintanance/repairs, etc.?)

Thanks for any info I can get here. This stuff is all new to me and it just seems a little too good to be true, that I could just put down a small down payment, collect $1k or more in monthly income, and own a free house in 30 years.
Otis,Your reputation precedes you ;) . Welcome.

Yes it seems like this is plausible. Upstate NY - I don't know every nook and cranny up there, but the land / housing is cheap and I can certainly invision locations that would be good landlording situations.

Call about the properties and ask for all the details. Next, if you like the numbers that you are seeing, put the property under contract (try and get a lower price, of course) and have a "due diligence" clause. This is a clause in there that lets you validate the property for the numbers and legitimacy of all that you've been told.

Check the rent, leases (ALL of them), and require the current owner to have every tenant sign a letter that states that says "yes, this is my lease." (this has a fancy name called an "estoppel" letter).

Here is an article that is by Ray Alcorn (he's fantastic) on doing Due Diligence.

You MUST make sure that the rent covers your expenses and then some, preferably by a 30-40% margin.

Also, you need to know about the management arrangements and you'll need them to be under a contract as well. Repairs, costs, fees, $ they need, lawn care, snow, maintenance (How much are they allowed to "just do" vs. calling you - light bulbs are ok, but what about a new furnace? $200-300 is a good limit).

Check it out and good luck. Further questions, let us know.

BassnBrew is a property manager and can help too.

Good luck.

 
I'd just like to ask other sellers if it's as common as I'm getting the impression it is that they had a home inspector who not only left things somewhat in disarray (annoying since I'm still entertaining "backup" offers ie still showing the house) but left lights on and even went as far as leaving an outside door unlocked. BBB here I come. POS.
Not really, no. Not the best inspector. I'd hate to see what his report looked like.I like to get references, and even better is a sample home inspection report. The bigger / more detail the better.
Kinda getting into this thread a little late, but I thought I'd share a little info about Home Inspectors. Now I can only speak for Maryland, so your state may be different.First off, Big Red, no that isn't normal. Well I should say it shouldn't happen. Sometimes the home inspector isn't the last person to leave the house. But as a home inspector myself, I am responsible for making sure the house is exactly the way it was, and often times better then it was before I arrived.

Home Inspectors are brought in to educate buyers about their purchase. I'm there to check the roof, windows, doors, locks, furnace, a/c, plumbing, electrical, ect.. Basically if I can see it and touch it, I'm going to check it. I'm also there to educate you about your systems, let you know the sytem age, average life expectancy, and approximate cost to replace of all major components of your house. I will also give you suggestions on how to maintain and improve the functionality and efficiency of your home. Any items which aren't working properly will be reported with the exception of cosmetic deficiencies such as scratches/holes on the walls, stains on the carpets, ect...I may point some of those items out, buy rarely are the significant enough to go to on my report. Also, it is not our job to decide who does the repairs if there are any needed. We are to educate you about your home and all of it's sytems and their condition AT THE TIME OF INSPECTION. Who fixes what can better be answered by your realtor. They know your market and can better gauge your leverage for asking for repairs, money back, lower the sales price and more stuff I as a home inspector should never even mention. Here is the condition of your home both good and bad, now ask your agent what your options are.

One little tibit for you homebuyers out there:

When the dishwasher leaks all over the floor 4 days after you move in, it isn't our fault, and don't bug your Realtor. #### happens, and it happens more to home owners. Now if there was a leak in the attic and this has been happening for awhile, and the home inspector didn't go in the attic/missed it, then the inspector may be at fault.

And I concur that the market is still driving well here in Maryland and to the South. I am actually looking into some investment opprotunities in Murtle Beach. New construction. We are conservitly projecting profits of over $100,000 before construction is complete.

Speaking of which, do any of you know any builders in your warm/HOT areas that will alow you to sell your contract? (Meaning, you can sell your house w/o having to first go to settlement on it yourself.)

 
Gents:

I posted the following in another thread, but proninja suggested I would be better off posting it in here since the real estate gurus tend to check here the most -- thanks for any input you can give:

I found my way to this site today, and I have some questions on the subject of real estate investments.

The site has a bunch of investment properties listed that seem too good to be true. When you look at the numbers they set out for the annual rent and expenses, and then you punch out some quick mortgage payment calculations online, it seems that I could very easily take out $30k as a home equity loan against my current apartment as a down payment on one of these properties and very easily cover the mortgage, monthly expenses, etc.

Is that website just a big sales pitch, or are the numbers realistic? Am I missing something? The only way I can fathom it not being a smart move is, for example, if the building ends up requiring a ton of work and becomes a big money pit.

Additionally, how plausible would it be to own an investment property that is far away? I'm in NYC and the properties on this site are in mid/upstate New York. Do the management companies handle everything (I know they do renting, but what about maintanance/repairs, etc.?)

Thanks for any info I can get here. This stuff is all new to me and it just seems a little too good to be true, that I could just put down a small down payment, collect $1k or more in monthly income, and own a free house in 30 years.
Otis,Your reputation precedes you ;) . Welcome.

Yes it seems like this is plausible. Upstate NY - I don't know every nook and cranny up there, but the land / housing is cheap and I can certainly invision locations that would be good landlording situations.

Call about the properties and ask for all the details. Next, if you like the numbers that you are seeing, put the property under contract (try and get a lower price, of course) and have a "due diligence" clause. This is a clause in there that lets you validate the property for the numbers and legitimacy of all that you've been told.

Check the rent, leases (ALL of them), and require the current owner to have every tenant sign a letter that states that says "yes, this is my lease." (this has a fancy name called an "estoppel" letter).

Here is an article that is by Ray Alcorn (he's fantastic) on doing Due Diligence.

You MUST make sure that the rent covers your expenses and then some, preferably by a 30-40% margin.

Also, you need to know about the management arrangements and you'll need them to be under a contract as well. Repairs, costs, fees, $ they need, lawn care, snow, maintenance (How much are they allowed to "just do" vs. calling you - light bulbs are ok, but what about a new furnace? $200-300 is a good limit).

Check it out and good luck. Further questions, let us know.

BassnBrew is a property manager and can help too.

Good luck.
The only thing I would ad, is to make sure the demand for units/rooms is there.
 
Gents:

I posted the following in another thread, but proninja suggested I would be better off posting it in here since the real estate gurus tend to check here the most -- thanks for any input you can give:

I found my way to this site today, and I have some questions on the subject of real estate investments.

The site has a bunch of investment properties listed that seem too good to be true. When you look at the numbers they set out for the annual rent and expenses, and then you punch out some quick mortgage payment calculations online, it seems that I could very easily take out $30k as a home equity loan against my current apartment as a down payment on one of these properties and very easily cover the mortgage, monthly expenses, etc.

Is that website just a big sales pitch, or are the numbers realistic? Am I missing something? The only way I can fathom it not being a smart move is, for example, if the building ends up requiring a ton of work and becomes a big money pit.

Additionally, how plausible would it be to own an investment property that is far away? I'm in NYC and the properties on this site are in mid/upstate New York. Do the management companies handle everything (I know they do renting, but what about maintanance/repairs, etc.?)

Thanks for any info I can get here. This stuff is all new to me and it just seems a little too good to be true, that I could just put down a small down payment, collect $1k or more in monthly income, and own a free house in 30 years.
Otis,Your reputation precedes you ;) . Welcome.

Yes it seems like this is plausible. Upstate NY - I don't know every nook and cranny up there, but the land / housing is cheap and I can certainly invision locations that would be good landlording situations.

Call about the properties and ask for all the details. Next, if you like the numbers that you are seeing, put the property under contract (try and get a lower price, of course) and have a "due diligence" clause. This is a clause in there that lets you validate the property for the numbers and legitimacy of all that you've been told.

Check the rent, leases (ALL of them), and require the current owner to have every tenant sign a letter that states that says "yes, this is my lease." (this has a fancy name called an "estoppel" letter).

Here is an article that is by Ray Alcorn (he's fantastic) on doing Due Diligence.

You MUST make sure that the rent covers your expenses and then some, preferably by a 30-40% margin.

Also, you need to know about the management arrangements and you'll need them to be under a contract as well. Repairs, costs, fees, $ they need, lawn care, snow, maintenance (How much are they allowed to "just do" vs. calling you - light bulbs are ok, but what about a new furnace? $200-300 is a good limit).

Check it out and good luck. Further questions, let us know.

BassnBrew is a property manager and can help too.

Good luck.
The only thing I would ad, is to make sure the demand for units/rooms is there.
Jeff - thanks very much for your response, much appreciated and gets me on the right track. As to my reputation, I have no idea what you are talking about. :thumbup: Prime - how would you go about determining demand for units/rooms in a given area?

 
Gents:

I posted the following in another thread, but proninja suggested I would be better off posting it in here since the real estate gurus tend to check here the most -- thanks for any input you can give:

I found my way to this site today, and I have some questions on the subject of real estate investments.

The site has a bunch of investment properties listed that seem too good to be true. When you look at the numbers they set out for the annual rent and expenses, and then you punch out some quick mortgage payment calculations online, it seems that I could very easily take out $30k as a home equity loan against my current apartment as a down payment on one of these properties and very easily cover the mortgage, monthly expenses, etc.

Is that website just a big sales pitch, or are the numbers realistic? Am I missing something? The only way I can fathom it not being a smart move is, for example, if the building ends up requiring a ton of work and becomes a big money pit.

Additionally, how plausible would it be to own an investment property that is far away? I'm in NYC and the properties on this site are in mid/upstate New York. Do the management companies handle everything (I know they do renting, but what about maintanance/repairs, etc.?)

Thanks for any info I can get here. This stuff is all new to me and it just seems a little too good to be true, that I could just put down a small down payment, collect $1k or more in monthly income, and own a free house in 30 years.
Otis,Your reputation precedes you ;) . Welcome.

Yes it seems like this is plausible. Upstate NY - I don't know every nook and cranny up there, but the land / housing is cheap and I can certainly invision locations that would be good landlording situations.

Call about the properties and ask for all the details. Next, if you like the numbers that you are seeing, put the property under contract (try and get a lower price, of course) and have a "due diligence" clause. This is a clause in there that lets you validate the property for the numbers and legitimacy of all that you've been told.

Check the rent, leases (ALL of them), and require the current owner to have every tenant sign a letter that states that says "yes, this is my lease." (this has a fancy name called an "estoppel" letter).

Here is an article that is by Ray Alcorn (he's fantastic) on doing Due Diligence.

You MUST make sure that the rent covers your expenses and then some, preferably by a 30-40% margin.

Also, you need to know about the management arrangements and you'll need them to be under a contract as well. Repairs, costs, fees, $ they need, lawn care, snow, maintenance (How much are they allowed to "just do" vs. calling you - light bulbs are ok, but what about a new furnace? $200-300 is a good limit).

Check it out and good luck. Further questions, let us know.

BassnBrew is a property manager and can help too.

Good luck.
The only thing I would ad, is to make sure the demand for units/rooms is there.
Jeff - thanks very much for your response, much appreciated and gets me on the right track. As to my reputation, I have no idea what you are talking about. :thumbup: Prime - how would you go about determining demand for units/rooms in a given area?
Local property managers can tell you about vacancy rates and average length of vacancies.If you're near something that generates a lot of renters (college, employer with transferring employees, etc.) that helps.

Also - if there are local apartment complexes, ask there. If they are giving incentives to attract renters (free months' rent, TV, cable, AC, etc.) that's a bad sign.

 
And, for gosh sakes people, if you're going to invest in real estate, know what the hell you're doing before you start.

I'm doing a loan for a young lady right now. Her real estate agent had her convinced that this property was just a sweet deal, she was planning on living in it while fixing it up, then turning around and selling it.

While interviewing her for the loan, I asked her a couple questions to gague how much homework she'd done. My first - "what exactly needs to be done?" The answer was very, very vague. I'm looking for specifics here. You should have a damn chart with every single thing that needs to be done in every single room, and exactly how much it's going to cost, which brings me to the next question I asked - "how much is it going to cost to fix it?" The answer? "Oh, somewhere between $40k and $80k." (this chick makes good money) Again - bad answer. Know how much it's going to cost you.

My third question - "How much do you think you can sell it for when you're done with the work?" Answer? "My real estate agent says X, what do you think?"

Sigh.

So, I commence doing the loan. Her agent is a friend, and he's pretty shady. I figure if I piss her off at this point in time, she's going to go use the shady agent's lender, and then she's gonna be up #### creek because nobody's going to be straight with her. So I keep quiet for a little while, have a couple talks with my appraisers, a couple agents I wyork with, so on and so forth. Throughout this, I catch the agent in quite a few mis-statements, and am getting totally creeped out by the whole thing.

Today she calls me, and says she heard some not so flattering info about her agent from another agent, and she looked at some of the numbers (finally!) and she wasn't sure how she was going to make money on the deal.

So, to make a long story short, I told her I thought her agent was a slimeball, I didn't think she was getting a good deal on the property, she didn't know how much it was going to cost, how long it was going to take, what needed to be done, or how much she could get for it when it was done. I told her she was woefully unprepared, and if she wants to invest in real estate she needs to do a lot more homework next time. She, instead of getting mad, thanked me, recinded the offer, and is currently getting hooked up with a reputable agent (the first guy wasn't even licensed) and is going about it the right way.

So. Long story short. Do your damn homework.
Sad but true.Nice job proninja.

 
I guess my first question would be why aren't the Yankee investors sucking this stuff up instead of flocking south for breakeven deals???

 
Gents:

I posted the following in another thread, but proninja suggested I would be better off posting it in here since the real estate gurus tend to check here the most -- thanks for any input you can give:

I found my way to this site today, and I have some questions on the subject of real estate investments.

The site has a bunch of investment properties listed that seem too good to be true.  When you look at the numbers they set out for the annual rent and expenses, and then you punch out some quick mortgage payment calculations online, it seems that I could very easily take out $30k as a home equity loan against my current apartment as a down payment on one of these properties and very easily cover the mortgage, monthly expenses, etc.

Is that website just a big sales pitch, or are the numbers realistic?  Am I missing something?  The only way I can fathom it not being a smart move is, for example, if the building ends up requiring a ton of work and becomes a big money pit.

Additionally, how plausible would it be to own an investment property that is far away?  I'm in NYC and the properties on this site are in mid/upstate New York.  Do the management companies handle everything (I know they do renting, but what about maintanance/repairs, etc.?)

Thanks for any info I can get here.  This stuff is all new to me and it just seems a little too good to be true, that I could just put down a small down payment, collect $1k or more in monthly income, and own a free house in 30 years.
Otis,Your reputation precedes you ;) . Welcome.

Yes it seems like this is plausible. Upstate NY - I don't know every nook and cranny up there, but the land / housing is cheap and I can certainly invision locations that would be good landlording situations.

Call about the properties and ask for all the details. Next, if you like the numbers that you are seeing, put the property under contract (try and get a lower price, of course) and have a "due diligence" clause. This is a clause in there that lets you validate the property for the numbers and legitimacy of all that you've been told.

Check the rent, leases (ALL of them), and require the current owner to have every tenant sign a letter that states that says "yes, this is my lease." (this has a fancy name called an "estoppel" letter).

Here is an article that is by Ray Alcorn (he's fantastic) on doing Due Diligence.

You MUST make sure that the rent covers your expenses and then some, preferably by a 30-40% margin.

Also, you need to know about the management arrangements and you'll need them to be under a contract as well. Repairs, costs, fees, $ they need, lawn care, snow, maintenance (How much are they allowed to "just do" vs. calling you - light bulbs are ok, but what about a new furnace? $200-300 is a good limit).

Check it out and good luck. Further questions, let us know.

BassnBrew is a property manager and can help too.

Good luck.
The only thing I would ad, is to make sure the demand for units/rooms is there.
Jeff - thanks very much for your response, much appreciated and gets me on the right track. As to my reputation, I have no idea what you are talking about. :thumbup: Prime - how would you go about determining demand for units/rooms in a given area?
Local property managers can tell you about vacancy rates and average length of vacancies.If you're near something that generates a lot of renters (college, employer with transferring employees, etc.) that helps.

Also - if there are local apartment complexes, ask there. If they are giving incentives to attract renters (free months' rent, TV, cable, AC, etc.) that's a bad sign.
I'd be inclined to call a local property manager and ask there suggestions on where to buy and what rents look like. You can then cross reference versus the deals you've found and see if there's a match. I do know for a fact that listing agents tend to inflate the expected rents on a regular basis and it really pisses me off.
 
I guess my first question would be why aren't the Yankee investors sucking this stuff up instead of flocking south for breakeven deals???
Then you would agree that these sound like they may be too good to be true?
 
I guess my first question would be why aren't the Yankee investors sucking this stuff up instead of flocking south for breakeven deals???
Then you would agree that these sound like they may be too good to be true?
I'd investigate because deals do pop up. You will also find better income producers in the rural areas where appreciation has been sparse. I'm just real leary because there have to be a million plus people in the Northeast looking for real estate investments. They're coming down here in droves dumping money in bad investments.FYI...figure on 1/2 month plus 8-12% per month for someone to place a tenant and collect rent/manage the property.

 
Ok guys, my turn to ask a question.  I'm looking for another piece of property right now, and I ran across this on Craigslist, and I'd like some help deciphering it.

The Ad

INVESTMENT PROPERTY, NOT MEANT FOR OWNER OCCUPANCY

BRAND NEW HOME IN SNOQUALMIE RIDGE

OWNER FINANCING, NO BANK NEEDED, NOTHING SHOWS UP IN YOUR CREDIT REPORT

RENT COVERS ALL EXPENSES ASSUMING YOU PUT DOWN 20%

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE DOWN PAYMENT, OWNER WILL FINANCE DOWN PAYMENT ALSO (SEE BELOW)

5-YEAR LOAN TERM WITH A BALOON PAYMENT AT THE END

RENTED TO MICROSOFT EMPLOYEE LONG TERM TENANT FOR 5-YEARS TILL YEAR 2010

HOME PRICED $525,000, COMPARABLE SALES PROVIDED UPON REQUEST

POSSIBILITIES

1. PAY 20% DOWN, PAY NOTHING FOR 5-YEARS (RENT COVERS ALL EXPENSES), PAY $425K AT THE END OF 5-YEARS

2. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE 20% TO PUT DOWN, PAY 10k DOWN, PAY $2000.00 PER MONTH FOR 5-YARS, AT THE END OF 5-YEARS PAY $425k
Is this guy really saying that you only need $100k to secure a $525 property for five years? Is this really $425k of no interest, no payment money for five years, or am I on crack? I sent an email to the guy, and we'll see what he has to say. My guess is that he's asking for a good bit more than the property's worth, bu heck - if the place is only worth $500k right now, I'll happily overpay to get $425k of free money for five years. The rent has to be at least $2k. . .Anyway, at first glance this looks too good to be true. Someone help me out here.
THIS ADDS UP TO TERRIBLE! So he holds the note or do you?

 
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Option 2:

$10K down

$2K a month for 5 years (60 months)

$425K in 5 years.

So you're "floating" the difference of the down payment. In other words, you are REALLY financing the difference ($100K - $10K = 90K) to be paid off in 5 years.

So what does 90K in 5 years at $2K a month translate to?

Using one of my favorite apps, Karl's Mortgage Calculator, I get this:

$90,000

5 years

12%

Payment = $2,002.00

That's close enough for me (actual answer is 11.956%, but who cares).

You're paying 12% on the $$ for an option.

The guy is pretty slick if he sells it. I like the technique. :thumbup:

Nice way to get $$ today for a rental.

I'd be damn sure to make certain that he has to keep the place rented and he was responsible for upkeep and condition.
Working my way down the posts.Exactly Jeff. This deal is a dog.

I would want a 5 year guarantee for fully rented with a VERY harsh penalty, and even then it is a dog.

 
Gents:

I posted the following in another thread, but proninja suggested I would be better off posting it in here since the real estate gurus tend to check here the most -- thanks for any input you can give:

I found my way to this site today, and I have some questions on the subject of real estate investments.

The site has a bunch of investment properties listed that seem too good to be true. When you look at the numbers they set out for the annual rent and expenses, and then you punch out some quick mortgage payment calculations online, it seems that I could very easily take out $30k as a home equity loan against my current apartment as a down payment on one of these properties and very easily cover the mortgage, monthly expenses, etc.

Is that website just a big sales pitch, or are the numbers realistic? Am I missing something? The only way I can fathom it not being a smart move is, for example, if the building ends up requiring a ton of work and becomes a big money pit.

Additionally, how plausible would it be to own an investment property that is far away? I'm in NYC and the properties on this site are in mid/upstate New York. Do the management companies handle everything (I know they do renting, but what about maintanance/repairs, etc.?)

Thanks for any info I can get here. This stuff is all new to me and it just seems a little too good to be true, that I could just put down a small down payment, collect $1k or more in monthly income, and own a free house in 30 years.
Few things. 1) Without more pictures on :e: of that naked completely psycho blonde chick you .... Well, you know, the girlfriend who would be just as happy if she killed you with a big knife .... I am not sure I can answer this correctly.

That said, looking at "Super 14 Unit in Historic District or Auburn" I am pulling it at a CAP rate of 13.6% (Jeff should check my Math). I don't know Upstate NY, but according to THEIR figures, that CAP rate is with Management included.

Around my area, that's not GREAT, it's Good. What I know of NY, my ASSUMPTION is that is SILLY good, absolutely great, too good to be true, seriously, almost freaky.

If that is the CAP rate, and my GUESS about the NY market is anywhere close, that is a smoking deal.

Seriously, NOT MY MARKET.

 
And, for gosh sakes people, if you're going to invest in real estate, know what the hell you're doing before you start.

I'm doing a loan for a young lady right now. Her real estate agent had her convinced that this property was just a sweet deal, she was planning on living in it while fixing it up, then turning around and selling it.

While interviewing her for the loan, I asked her a couple questions to gague how much homework she'd done. My first - "what exactly needs to be done?" The answer was very, very vague. I'm looking for specifics here. You should have a damn chart with every single thing that needs to be done in every single room, and exactly how much it's going to cost, which brings me to the next question I asked - "how much is it going to cost to fix it?" The answer? "Oh, somewhere between $40k and $80k." (this chick makes good money) Again - bad answer. Know how much it's going to cost you.

My third question - "How much do you think you can sell it for when you're done with the work?" Answer? "My real estate agent says X, what do you think?"

Sigh.

So, I commence doing the loan. Her agent is a friend, and he's pretty shady. I figure if I piss her off at this point in time, she's going to go use the shady agent's lender, and then she's gonna be up #### creek because nobody's going to be straight with her. So I keep quiet for a little while, have a couple talks with my appraisers, a couple agents I wyork with, so on and so forth. Throughout this, I catch the agent in quite a few mis-statements, and am getting totally creeped out by the whole thing.

Today she calls me, and says she heard some not so flattering info about her agent from another agent, and she looked at some of the numbers (finally!) and she wasn't sure how she was going to make money on the deal.

So, to make a long story short, I told her I thought her agent was a slimeball, I didn't think she was getting a good deal on the property, she didn't know how much it was going to cost, how long it was going to take, what needed to be done, or how much she could get for it when it was done. I told her she was woefully unprepared, and if she wants to invest in real estate she needs to do a lot more homework next time. She, instead of getting mad, thanked me, recinded the offer, and is currently getting hooked up with a reputable agent (the first guy wasn't even licensed) and is going about it the right way.

So. Long story short. Do your damn homework.
I can personally put a number of Anderson being completely stupid stories out there from my start. I do this full time for a Living.It's a hard knock life, everyone has to learn.

 
I guess my first question would be why aren't the Yankee investors sucking this stuff up instead of flocking south for breakeven deals???
I am working my way down the list. If you are talking about Otis's deal, I agree with you.One thought I had on the Historical Property deal is that many MANY investors are Gun Shy on Historical properties that are actually in the National Register, and therefore directed by the Department of the Interior. There are a TON of regs to follow in this case that scare investors. It's my bread and butter, but I can understand the fear.

My second thought is that the numbers are bad.

My third thought is that My Math and/or assumptions on NY or even upper NY are bad. Hopefully Jeff can check my Math.

 
Othis.

I am pulling a CAP rate of 11.47 off of the 112 Park Place property WITH Management included and it's a Brick Building.

I would sure want solid proof that 1/1's are renting all day long in Alburn NY, but it seems solid if you trust the numbers they give you. Get copies of leases PRIOR to your bid.

Seriously, the Owner will most likely balk at that, but honestly, it because he is a complete lying punk, and the numbers don't jive.

From what I would guess about Upstate NY, these numbers don't jive/something is wrong/someone is Lying. Something doesn't fit. It has those performance numbers where a PM is already included in a Market like NY????

Honestly? I will tell you what Mike Anderson would do here. I have been an Investor for over 10 years, and a Full time investor for 3 years. I specialize in Cash Deals where either I pay Cash, or if I HAVE to Finance, I get cash at Closing, my best is walking away from the table with $21K.

I would float Bass $100.00 as someone I trust and ask him as a PM to dissect this with a fine tooth comb. To be my "Expert"/Representative/trusted FBG to try and understand this deal. I would Hire Bass, and Expect to just forfeit $100.00 to understand this inside and out. For that $100.00 I want serious insight into this entire operation. I would think given Bass's profession, he would gladly accept a C-Note to research another market he might be able to operate in. Money well spent all around, but I would want Bass to get Medieval on this website/concept of what these properties are worth.

It's out of my market, SEEMS awesome, but I would check it out like there is no tomorrow. Assume something is wrong.

Jeff is stronger than I am at this, but that is the way I would approach it.

I did the following once before, but we are further along in the thread, and I want to clearly state the following:

Since I am on staff at FBG, and a Licensed Real Estate Agent in, the Mecca of all Civilization, Indiana, I want to clearly state that I have no affiliation with Bass, in fact I seriously don't know his first name. Do I trust him on this subject? ABSOLUTELY, but it is Mike Anderson, Everyday citizen that trusts him. Any representation I make is that of Mike Anderson, and in no way shape and form of/for FBG.

 
Othis.

I am pulling a CAP rate of 11.47 off of the 112 Park Place property WITH Management included and it's a Brick Building.

I would sure want solid proof that 1/1's are renting all day long in Alburn NY, but it seems solid if you trust the numbers they give you. Get copies of leases PRIOR to your bid.

Seriously, the Owner will most likely balk at that, but honestly, it because he is a complete lying punk, and the numbers don't jive.

From what I would guess about Upstate NY, these numbers don't jive/something is wrong/someone is Lying. Something doesn't fit. It has those performance numbers where a PM is already included in a Market like NY????

Honestly? I will tell you what Mike Anderson would do here. I have been an Investor for over 10 years, and a Full time investor for 3 years. I specialize in Cash Deals where either I pay Cash, or if I HAVE to Finance, I get cash at Closing, my best is walking away from the table with $21K.

I would float Bass $100.00 as someone I trust and ask him as a PM to dissect this with a fine tooth comb. To be my "Expert"/Representative/trusted FBG to try and understand this deal. I would Hire Bass, and Expect to just forfeit $100.00 to understand this inside and out. For that $100.00 I want serious insight into this entire operation. I would think given Bass's profession, he would gladly accept a C-Note to research another market he might be able to operate in. Money well spent all around, but I would want Bass to get Medieval on this website/concept of what these properties are worth.

It's out of my market, SEEMS awesome, but I would check it out like there is no tomorrow. Assume something is wrong.

Jeff is stronger than I am at this, but that is the way I would approach it.

I did the following once before, but we are further along in the thread, and I want to clearly state the following:

Since I am on staff at FBG, and a Licensed Real Estate Agent in, the Mecca of all Civilization, Indiana, I want to clearly state that I have no affiliation with Bass, in fact I seriously don't know his first name. Do I trust him on this subject? ABSOLUTELY, but it is Mike Anderson, Everyday citizen that trusts him. Any representation I make is that of Mike Anderson, and in no way shape and form of/for FBG.
MA:Thanks a million for the response. Now, I am going to reduce my credibility around here even more than the time I posted undercarriagle camera phone shots of the previous night's prey as she lay in a drunken haze in my bed for all the world to see -- what means "CAP rate"?

And if BnB were interested in such an arrangement, that $100 seems like a good investment of resources if this is really to be conisdered...

 
Based on what little else I can figure out, it seems that many of these homes may be in the vicinity of SU. I am guessing that a college town may be a fairly lucrative place to rent out apartments because you always have plenty of demand and turnover is probably not a major issue, and you've probably got lots of kids whose parents are putting up the cash and in the context of tuition and other college expenses, the rent doesn't seem enormous and is just accepted as part of the package, so folks may be willing to spend a little extra (this is just a guess and based on what I remember my student experience to be like).

MA - to answer one of your questions about, the history home that seems too good to be true is apparently yearly and month-to-month leases. With zero knowledge of this stuff I can only assume that the month-to-monthers (and I don't how many of the renters are month-to-month, but the website indicates that at least some are) makes it a more risky investment because you could have substantial turnover all at once and/or will be forced to eat the turnover costs more regularly than with yearly renters.

A rookie's perspective.

 
I also mean to add above re: renting out to college kids that, I assume, you've also got the following dynamic:

1. The renters beat the places up a bit more, however

2. The renters generally are far less discriminating regarding the condition of the apartment than an older person/couple/family would be.

I guess that means in more wear and tear on the property long term, and perhaps you are forced to sink more money for repairs etc.

 
Based on what little else I can figure out, it seems that many of these homes may be in the vicinity of SU. I am guessing that a college town may be a fairly lucrative place to rent out apartments because you always have plenty of demand and turnover is probably not a major issue, and you've probably got lots of kids whose parents are putting up the cash and in the context of tuition and other college expenses, the rent doesn't seem enormous and is just accepted as part of the package, so folks may be willing to spend a little extra (this is just a guess and based on what I remember my student experience to be like).

MA - to answer one of your questions about, the history home that seems too good to be true is apparently yearly and month-to-month leases. With zero knowledge of this stuff I can only assume that the month-to-monthers (and I don't how many of the renters are month-to-month, but the website indicates that at least some are) makes it a more risky investment because you could have substantial turnover all at once and/or will be forced to eat the turnover costs more regularly than with yearly renters.

A rookie's perspective.
Rookie got it right. :thumbup:
 
Gents:

I posted the following in another thread, but proninja suggested I would be better off posting it in here since the real estate gurus tend to check here the most -- thanks for any input you can give:

I found my way to this site today, and I have some questions on the subject of real estate investments.

The site has a bunch of investment properties listed that seem too good to be true. When you look at the numbers they set out for the annual rent and expenses, and then you punch out some quick mortgage payment calculations online, it seems that I could very easily take out $30k as a home equity loan against my current apartment as a down payment on one of these properties and very easily cover the mortgage, monthly expenses, etc.

Is that website just a big sales pitch, or are the numbers realistic? Am I missing something? The only way I can fathom it not being a smart move is, for example, if the building ends up requiring a ton of work and becomes a big money pit.

Additionally, how plausible would it be to own an investment property that is far away? I'm in NYC and the properties on this site are in mid/upstate New York. Do the management companies handle everything (I know they do renting, but what about maintanance/repairs, etc.?)

Thanks for any info I can get here. This stuff is all new to me and it just seems a little too good to be true, that I could just put down a small down payment, collect $1k or more in monthly income, and own a free house in 30 years.
Few things. 1) Without more pictures on :e: of that naked completely psycho blonde chick you .... Well, you know, the girlfriend who would be just as happy if she killed you with a big knife .... I am not sure I can answer this correctly.

That said, looking at "Super 14 Unit in Historic District or Auburn" I am pulling it at a CAP rate of 13.6% (Jeff should check my Math). I don't know Upstate NY, but according to THEIR figures, that CAP rate is with Management included.

Around my area, that's not GREAT, it's Good. What I know of NY, my ASSUMPTION is that is SILLY good, absolutely great, too good to be true, seriously, almost freaky.

If that is the CAP rate, and my GUESS about the NY market is anywhere close, that is a smoking deal.

Seriously, NOT MY MARKET.
Regarding the CAP rate:This is the "Recapitalization" rate ("CAP" for short) - this is how fast you get your $$ back.

10% is a standard measure. >10% is good, under 10% isn't as good (as a BUYER).

CAP Rate = NOI / Price.

NOI = Net Operating Income = Rent - All Expenses

In this case, NOI = $74,436 - $20,354 = $54,082.

CAP rate = $54,082 / $399,000 = 13.55%. Mike was right. :thumbup:

Note - all the numbers I used were from the ad. YOU MUST VERIFY THOSE. I did see that the taxes didn't match (top and bottom of page). First warning sign.

Side note - when you sell a property, you want a lower cap (since this will increase your sales price).

 

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