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*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Jayrod
- Start date
gianmarco
Footballguy
Never thought the day would come where Twitter would supply a "how-to" thread on urban warfare for civilians.
culdeus
Footballguy
How is this saving face? Still should be catastrophic for Putin. Losing maybe 5k troops and a bunch of equipment for land that was more or less ceded?
I mean he showed his ### here. Nttawwt.
Side bar: we gonna still give the gold to the skaters or what?
culdeus
Footballguy
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Putin has lost more troops in Ukraine in 3 days than the U.S. lost in Afghanistan in 20 years.
The Commish
Footballguy
I don't understand what "negotiations" could possibly go on here. Maybe "Turn around and leave and we won't attack you on the way out" kind of things?
Capella
Footballguy
Well Putin would look like a fool but yea give him Donbas and another 5-mile stretch of land on the border? He’s of course not going to take that and Ukraine shouldn’t offer it. No idea what they’re talking about.
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JaxBill
Footballguy
@DarthPutinKGB: When Czar orders nuclear forces to full alert but all you can think of is how to avoid the coming purge. https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1497942420436172801/photo/1
@colin_dunlap: I would love the resolution to all of this to be simply to allow either one of the Klitschko brothers to be locked in a room alone with Putin for 5 minutes.
@colin_dunlap: I would love the resolution to all of this to be simply to allow either one of the Klitschko brothers to be locked in a room alone with Putin for 5 minutes.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Ted Lange as your Bartender
Footballguy
JaxBill
Footballguy
@NewVoiceUkraine: A Ukrainian in Berdyansk spotted a mine on the road and didn't wait around for a bomb disposal unit - at great risk to life and limb, he removed the mine, clearing the way for the Ukrainian military. https://twitter.com/NewVoiceUkraine/status/1497944521635680259/video/1
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Western countries should give the Ukranians authority to promise the lifting of some sanctions in exchange for Russia leaving.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
That does raise a good question though. When this thing does end, is the world just going to remove all the sanctions and pretend this never happened???
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
They are called idiots but I think it might be illustrative of how little the typical Russian soldier knows about what is going on.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Well I hope the world has a plan, especially if all these sanctions destroy the Russian economy. Somebody earlier brought up the parallel to Germany after WWI, we don't want Russia to be treated so harshly by the world that their next leader is even worse than Putin.
My hope is that somehow this ends with Russia and the U.S. both getting rid of a bunch of their nukes, and Russia rejoining the international community (under new leadership). That might be a fantasy though.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Seems like the only sensible thing to do with them. I remember Gorbachev suggesting to Reagan during the negotiations that led to START I we could live in a world with no (or very few) nukes. They will never be deployed, it’s silly how much we waste on maintaining a nuclear arsenal.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
That was ridiculous
The Ukraine always gave them access to Sevastopol & leased the Black Sea naval bases to them - which they had no obligation to do, they’re a sovereign nation
Concession almost never makes sense with leaders like Putin
It’s 1937-38 all over again
Jayrod
Footballguy
I'm curious how this gets handled. If Russia ultimately loses this war, I could see one of the punitive measures being the return of Crimea to full control of Ukraine with no Russia base at all.
massraider
Footballguy
James Daulton
Footballguy
100% this. Take this misstep and a united NATA and world as an opportunity to embarrass and crush Putin as much as possible.
jamny
Footballguy
James Daulton
Footballguy
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The Commish
Footballguy
That makes sense. I thought that was assumed (that if they werent there the sanctions wouldn't be either) but I guess thats a good point.
jamny
Footballguy
no problem.I thought it was a typo at first but noticed you kept doing it. I even did a google search for NATA to see what I was missing.
beer 30
Footballguy
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Putin's leverage is more weapons, more attacks and nukes.
Lifting those sanctions should be part of the peace talks. As much as we hate Putin, we don't really want to wreck the entire economy of Russia.
You have to assume that either Russia really thought the majority of Ukranians would welcome them as heroes so they had expectations that the police won. On the other hand, might be more likely that these guys just wanted out of this military operation and essentially turned themselves in.
The General
Footballguy
Legitimate issues for sure. But, one thing at a time.
End this war first, harsh sanctions will be a huge component to that (second in importance only to the will of the Ukrainian people).
Then see what happens in Russia and work on that.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
“Shouldn’t we figure out what will happen if we take Saddam out of power in Iraq?”
”One thing at a time.”
The General
Footballguy
No one can predict perfectly what will happen but you first have to accomplish immediate issue at hand.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Except we were the initiator there. In this case, the question of what to do with Russia is forced upon the West by Russia's actions. The timetable is set by them attacking, not anything Ukraine or NATO planned out.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
That's a very different scenario. We went in to take Saddam out. That was the entire impetus for the operation. This is a matter of protecting Ukraine. One if playing offense, the other is playing defense.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Exactly. A Ukrainian protester had the perfect sign:
If Russia stops fighting, there is no war. If Ukraine stops fighting, there is no Ukraine.
Unfortunately, despite the relative success of the Ukrainians so far, I think the likeliest scenario is still a total Russian takeover of the country. When all these invading army groups start to link up, I think that could happen pretty quickly. If that occurs, when do the sanctions end? Are they just going to run indefinitely until Ukraine is liberated again? I suspect the world economy won’t have the stomach for that.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I suppose at that point NATO and major countries call Russia to the negotiating table and lay out what needs to be done to remove sanctions. I can't imagine all of these countries just go, "ok Putin you win. Well played, now that you have Ukraine let's get you back to business as usual."
culdeus
Footballguy
The Russian people lose their #### and revolt first. A coup from here if they stay in seems likely with the resulting government amenible to the oligarchy and pulls the military back completely.
Imagine if tomorrow half your #### was taken and you had no hope of getting anything else and you were a prisoner in your country. They gonna stand for this? We will find out Monday morning. Ruble trading around 180 in futures.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
It doesn’t matter who initiated what. We should still be thinking about the consequences for every action we take. If the Russian economy collapses and then we just walk away, that might not go so well.
It would be a difficult pill to swallow, but at some point I could see countries like Germany breaking off after its citizens get tired of paying whatever the energy price premium is that the sanctions are causing.
I doubt it. The major players over there still seem to be far more afraid of Putin than they are worried about losing their yachts and second homes, and those people have lived under authoritarian rule for centuries. I don’t think banning them from SWIFT is going to be the straw the breaks that particular camel’s back. Hope I’m wrong.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
For sure and countries like China might be quick to get over it. I would think Germany could last longer with some higher energy prices than Russia could get by with a Great Depression level event. But yes, a lot is up in the air. This has been going on for a couple of days but will be something that plays out over months and potentially years.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
GreenNGold
Footballguy
I know it's (probably) a pipe dream but I want to see Ukraine beat back Russia so hard they take Crimea back too, and do not allow Russia to even have a naval presence there ever again.
edit: too slow, I see this idea was already posted.
Either way, even if Russia pulls back, I don't think things can just go back to normal. I'd like to see a full economic embargo including oil until this is over, possibly longer depending how Putin responds. Clearly the international community miscalculated in the past and was way too soft on Russia, time for any effort to be the nice guy is over.
I also think support for NATO action is growing and might happen if Russia starts committing war crimes against large civilian populations or actually destroying cities with some of those weapons they are bringing in.
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Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
That’s from 2015 and in Russia but if a Ukrainian farmer gets inspired by seeing it then hell yeah man
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