*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (5 Viewers)

[SaintsInDome2006]

Ukraine risks losing key partner or its dignity, warns Zelenskyy, as Trump sets Thanksgiving deadline to accept deal

 

[Zeppelin]

Ukraine risks losing key partner or its dignity, warns Zelenskyy, as Trump sets Thanksgiving deadline to accept deal

A plan that only benefits Russia...what a ****ing joke.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

US 'peace proposal' includes Russianisms prompting questions about authorship of text - analysis

>>>Some of the phrases in the US’s “peace proposal” for Ukraine appear to have been originally written in Russian. In several places the language would work in Russian but seems distinctly odd in English.

The third point of the 28-point plan reads: “It is expected that Russia will not invade neighbouring countries and Nato will not expand further.”

“It is expected” is a clunky passive construction in English. The Russian version – ожидается or ozhidayetsya – makes more sense and is a familiar verb form.

Other Russianisms that appear to have crept into the text include неоднозначности (ambiguities) and “закрепить” (to enshrine).

The White House has acknowledged Kirill Dmitriev, Vladimir Putin’s envoy, wrote the proposal together with Donald Trump’s special representative Steve Witkoff. The pair hammered out the text during a meeting in Miami.

Ukraine and its European partners were excluded from the drafting process.
+++

At the European Commission’s midday briefing, we have just been given a confirmation of António Costa’s earlier comments that the EU had not been “officially communicated” the US-Russian plan on Ukraine before it was made public.

There also a repeated hint that von der Leyen could be speaking to Zelenskyy very soon, and we are told to “stay tuned” on this.

We are now getting more confirmations of the call, also via sources to AFP and Reuters.<<<

 

[bolzano]

This is absolutely outrageous. Trump is unwilling to stand up to the aggressor (i.e., Russia) and force them to agree to any concessions, so he’s gonna bully the victim into surrendering.

IMO, Zelensky should reject the deal, and let Trump grapple with the political fallout as the world reacts in horror over him siding with Russia. Ukraine will continue to be backed by the Europeans, and Trump will eventually cave. Basically, it’s a repeat of what happened in February/ March.

 

[bolzano]

Exclusive: US threatens to cut intel, weapons to press Ukraine into peace deal, sources say

The United States has threatened to cut intelligence sharing and weapons supplies for Ukraine to press it into agreeing to the framework of a U.S.-brokered peace deal, two people familiar with the matter said.

www.reuters.com

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

>>
“$100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine… The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture. Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine’s reconstruction.”

So America is to receive kickbacks from Russia for the rebuilding of cities, towns and villages pulverized by Russia, using frozen Russian money; and Europe, which has not been consulted on any of this, is to be made to spend more of its own money on Ukraine’s reconstruction. I wonder if the head of Russia’s sovereign wealth fund has reckoned with which of the siloviki will be expropriated here, to the enrichment of the U.S. government.<<
Michael Weiss

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

>>
The Financial Times confirmed such a 28 point-plan and some of the grimmer details. Ukraine would have to cede to Russia the remainder of Donbas: previously deemed a non-starter by Kyiv and certified as such by a mapping-tossing Trump who tried to sell that plan to Zelensky when the Ukrainian president was last in Washington. It would have to cut the size of its standing army in half. It would have to forfeit certain weapons systems, especially long-range missiles that can reach Russia, and reduce its dependency on U.S. security assistance. Also, no foreign troops would be allowed on Ukrainian soil. The Russian language and Russian Orthodox Church would also have been guaranteed status by Kyiv. All of these provisions, needless to add, are longstanding maximalist Russian demands, which the U.S. had previously rejected, most recently after Secretary of State Marco Rubio’s fruitless discussion with Sergei Lavrov as the preliminary for the now-scotched Budapest summit between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin.

There was no mention of what Ukraine would get from this grand bargain, which seemed to be the point of emphasis in all the leaks. It was a Russian wish-list.

NBC News and the Wall Street Journal both noted that while Witkoff may have been driving the car, he had co-passengers. The plan, now described as a “blueprint” for ending the war, “was worked out” by Rubio, Witkoff and Jared Kushner, according to the Journal, citing unnamed U.S. officials. NBC reported that the president “this week approved” all 28 points, citing one unnamed “senior administration official.”<<

- Weiss article

So, you see, the president’s son in law is now involved as he was in Gaza, where the model is the president’s company will be brought in to reconstruct Ukraine.

 

[bolzano]

So, you see, the president’s son in law is now involved as he was in Gaza, where the model is the president’s company will be brought in to reconstruct Ukraine.

So, basically, US and Russian gangsters put together what looks a lot like a protection racket, where they’re gonna extort Ukraine into surrendering and split the spoils of war in exchange for “security agreements”.

 

[Orange&Blue]

ashamed to be an American with this. Why would anyone ever want to be our ally.

 

[fatness]

How Swarovski Optik is still sending sniper scopes to Russia, despite Austria’s policy of ‘permanent neutrality’

Austria’s Swarovski Optik — the high-end optics division of the Swarovski brand best known for its jewelry — has continued shipping rifle scopes to Russia throughout the full-scale war in Ukraine, according to a new investigation by iStories. Customs records reviewed by journalists show the company’s products are still entering the country despite Austria’s policy of “permanent neutrality,” which Vienna has cited as the reason for refusing to supply weapons to Kyiv. At the same time, Austria has continued to send dozens of Steyr rifles and pistols to Russia — firearms that have been used on the battlefield in Ukraine, as The Insider previously reported.

 

[fatness]

How the Ukrainian blogger photographed in the aftermath of Russia’s Mariupol maternity hospital strike became a pro-Putin propagandist

Marianna Vyshemirskaya (who also goes by her maiden name, Podgurskaya) first made headlines during the Russian military’s siege of Mariupol, when she was featured in an Associated Press report on the bombing of the Mariupol maternity hospital on March 9, 2022. Photos of her pregnant with blood on her face quickly spread across social media and news outlets. She gave birth to a baby girl the day after the attack.

The hospital strike killed three people and injured 17. Russian propagandists, meanwhile, insisted the attack never occurred, alleging it was staged by Ukraine and that Vyshemirskaya was an actress. Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels published an interview with her as supposed “proof” of Moscow’s version of events. Vyshemirskaya expressed anger that her photos had been taken and used without her consent, but she did not deny the hospital strike, saying only that she didn’t know which side was responsible.

Before Russia’s full-scale invasion, Vyshemirskaya was a beauty influencer with more than 80,000 Instagram followers. Today, her account is private and all posts have been deleted, according to Novaya Gazeta Europe. After evacuating from Mariupol, she launched a Telegram channel — this time focused not on makeup but on the war. There, she chronicled her move to occupied Donetsk and the city’s bombardment, her trips back to Mariupol, as well as Moscow’s reconstruction efforts there. She accused the Ukrainian authorities of abandoning ordinary people and dragging them into a “fratricidal war.” She weighed in on international affairs, promoted Telegram channels run by Russian propagandists, and even sent drones to Russian troops. Ahead of Russia’s 2024 presidential election, she publicly endorsed Vladimir Putin and later congratulated him on his victory. She now appears to live in Moscow.

 

[fatness]

A friendly reminder: Trump’s new Ukraine peace plan is the work of two diplomatic amateurs, Kirill Dmitriev and Steve Witkoff

On November 19, reports surfaced that Russia and the United States were quietly drafting a new plan to end the war in Ukraine. Later that day, several of the plan’s details became public, indicating that the proposal largely repeats demands Vladimir Putin has made of Kyiv since the start of the conflict. The new plan’s parameters were developed primarily by two special presidential envoys: Steve Witkoff from the White House and Kirill Dmitriev from the Kremlin. Meduza reviews who these men are and how they fit into negotiations to end Europe’s bloodiest war in decades.

Ukrainian officials have accused Witkoff of siding with Russia, and Western diplomats describe him as unprofessional. Reports indicate that his team lacks Russia experts, and that during talks with Putin, he dispensed with a stenographer and relied on Kremlin translators. After the Trump–Putin meeting in Alaska, which produced no breakthrough in the negotiations, Witkoff was accused by both American and Russian officials of having misrepresented Putin’s position to Trump.

After these setbacks, Dmitriev met with Witkoff and declared that “Russia and the U.S. and Ukraine are actually quite close to a diplomatic solution” to the conflict. At the time, the remark seemed odd: Putin and Trump had just shifted from pleasantries to arguing over whose weapons of mass destruction are more powerful. Now it appears that Dmitriev was hinting at the peace plan he and Witkoff had devised. The prevailing assumption, bolstered by an apparently accidental tweet from Witkoff, is that Dmitriev leaked the plan’s details to reporters.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

NYT’s Kim Barker in Ternopil (short video)

- Russia has been striking apartment buildings like this across Ukraine.

 

[fatness]

Ukraine’s allies push back on a US peace plan seen as favoring Moscow

The leaders of France, Germany and the U.K. met during the day on the sidelines of a Group of 20 summit in Johannesburg, South Africa, to discuss ways to support Kyiv, according to a person with knowledge of the matter who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

German Chancellor Friedrich Merz told reporters at the summit that “wars cannot be ended by major powers over the heads of the countries affected,” and insisted Kyiv needed robust guarantees. Merz added that envoys from Germany, France, the U.K. and the EU will join Ukrainian negotiators as they meet a U.S. delegation in Geneva on Sunday to discuss Washington’s proposal. Zelenskyy confirmed the meeting on Saturday, after President Donald Trump set a deadline for Kyiv to respond to the plan by next Thursday. European leaders have long warned against rushing a peace deal, seeing their own future at stake in Ukraine’s fight to beat back Russia, and insist on being consulted in peace efforts.

 

[fatness]

Atlantic article: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2025/11/trumps-war-peace/685024/
article archived: https://archive.ph/psN5A

The 28-point peace plan that the United States and Russia want to impose on Ukraine and Europe is misnamed. It is not a peace plan. It is a proposal that weakens Ukraine and divides America from Europe, preparing the way for a larger war in the future. In the meantime, it benefits unnamed Russian and American investors, at the expense of everyone else.

The plan was negotiated by Steve Witkoff, a real-estate developer with no historical, geographical, or cultural knowledge of Russia or Ukraine, and Kirill Dmitriev, who heads Russia’s sovereign-wealth fund and spends most of his time making business deals. The revelation of their plan this week shocked European leaders, who are now paying almost all of the military costs of the war, as well as the Ukrainians, who were not sure whether to take this latest plan seriously until they were told to agree to it by Thanksgiving or lose all further U.S. support. Even if the plan falls apart, this arrogant and confusing ultimatum, coming only days after the State Department authorized the sale of anti-missile technology to Ukraine, will do permanent damage to America’s reputation as a reliable ally, not only in Europe but around the world.

Not only would this plan cede territory, people, and assets to Russia; it also seems deliberately designed to weaken Ukraine, politically and militarily, so that Russia would find it easier to invade again a year from now, or 10 years from now. According to a version of the text that appeared in the Financial Times yesterday, the plan does state that “Ukraine’s sovereignty would be confirmed.” But it then imposes severe restrictions on Ukrainian sovereignty: Ukraine must “enshrine in its constitution” a promise to never join NATO. Ukraine must shrink the size of its armed forces to 600,000, down from 900,000. Ukraine may not host foreign troops on its soil. Ukraine must hold new elections within 100 days, a demand not made of Russia, a dictatorship that has not held free elections for more than two decades.

 

[fatness]

Why is the Trump White House pushing Ukraine to accept a Russian plan that paves the way for another war? The document offers some hints, declaring that the U.S. would also somehow take charge of the $100 billion in frozen Russian assets, for example, supposedly to invest this money in Ukraine and receive “50% of the profits from this venture.” Europeans, whose banks actually hold most of these assets, would receive nothing. European taxpayers, who currently provide almost all of the military and humanitarian support to Ukraine, are nevertheless expected to contribute $100 billion to Ukraine’s reconstruction.

From the Atlantic article in the previous post.

Other details of the business negotiations carried out by Witkoff and Dmitriev remain secret. Ukrainians and Europeans, who would pay the military and economic price for this plan, deserve to know them. Above all, American citizens should be asking for the details of any business negotiations now under way. This plan has been proposed, in our name, as a part of U.S. foreign policy. But it would not serve our economic or security interests. So whose interests would it serve? Which U.S. companies and which oligarchs would benefit?

 

[thecatch]

Putting aside the infuriating incompetence on display from the US here, hopefully this will have the positive side effect of convincing Europe that they seriously need to start taking responsibility for their own defense. If we're abandoning our commitments maybe they'll finally step up.

 

[Zeppelin]

The more I hear about this so-called "deal", the more ****ing enraged I get.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Trump officials' meeting with Russian in Miami spurs questions about Ukraine proposal

>>Washington, Nov 22 (Reuters) - U.S. officials and lawmakers are increasingly concerned about a meeting last month in which representatives of the Trump administration met with Kirill Dmitriev, a Russian envoy who is under U.S. sanctions, to draft a plan to end the war in Ukraine, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter.
The meeting took place in Miami at the end of October and included special envoy Steve Witkoff, President Donald Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner and Dmitriev, who leads the Russian Direct Investment Fund, one of Russia's largest sovereign wealth fund.

A close ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, Dmitriev has taken a leading role in talks with the U.S. about the war and has met with Witkoff several times this year. The Trump administration issued a special waiver to allow his entry, a senior U.S. official told Reuters.

MEETING RESULTED IN CONTROVERSIAL UKRAINE PEACE PLAN​

Dmitriev and his fund were blacklisted by the U.S. government in 2022 following Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. The sanctions effectively bar American citizens and companies from dealing with them.

The meeting resulted in a 28-point plan for ending the war, two people familiar with the situation said. The plan, which was made public this week by Axios, came as a surprise to U.S. officials in various corners of the administration and has stirred confusion at embassies throughout Washington and in European capitals.
It has also prompted criticism from the Ukrainians and their allies for appearing heavily tilted toward Russian interests, with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy vowing on Friday that he would not betray Ukraine's interests.

The meeting resulted in a 28-point plan for ending the war, two people familiar with the situation said. The plan, which was made public this week by Axios, came as a surprise to U.S. officials in various corners of the administration and has stirred confusion at embassies throughout Washington and in European capitals.
It has also prompted criticism from the Ukrainians and their allies for appearing heavily tilted toward Russian interests, with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy vowing on Friday that he would not betray Ukraine's interests.
The document, which calls for major concessions from Ukraine, appears to run counter to the tougher stance the Trump administration has lately taken toward Moscow, including with sanctions on its energy sector.
It is unclear whether Dmitriev came to the meeting in Miami with certain Russian demands and whether those were incorporated into the peace plan.
Two people familiar with the meeting said Rustem Umerov, secretary of Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council, was also in Miami early this week to discuss the plan with Witkoff.

One source familiar with the situation said Witkoff told Umerov about the plan during that visit and that the United States gave the plan to Ukraine via the Turkish government on Wednesday, before directly presenting it in Kyiv on Thursday.

PLAN SEEKS 'BEST WIN-WIN,' WHITE HOUSE SAYS​

Umerov has described his role as "technical" and denied that he discussed the plan in substance with U.S. officials. He did not respond to a request for comment.
Witkoff, Kushner, Dmitriev and the Ukrainian embassy in Washington also did not respond to requests for comment.
White House spokeswoman Karoline Leavitt said in a statement that any peace plan "must offer security guarantees and deterrence for Ukraine, Europe and Russia" and offer economic incentives to both Ukraine and Russia.
"This plan was crafted to reflect the realities of the situation, and to find the best win-win scenario, where both parties gain more than they must give," she said.
Trump said on Friday that he expected Zelenskiy to sign onto the plan by Thursday's Thanksgiving holiday. The U.S. has warned Ukraine it could curb military assistanceif it does not sign, Reuters has reported.
In an address on Friday night, Zelenskiy announced talks with Ukraine's partners on steps to end the war.
"Our representatives know how to protect Ukraine's national interests and what exactly is needed to prevent Russia from carrying out a third invasion, another blow to Ukraine," he said.
Trump said on Saturday the proposal was not his final offer, signaling potential room for adjustments as Ukraine and its European allies stressed that the plan could serve as a foundation for negotiations but required significant changes.
SOME OFFICIALS CAUGHT OFF GUARD
Many senior officials inside the State Department and on the National Security Council were not briefed, the two people familiar with the plan said. Special Envoy for Ukraine Keith Kellogg, who had been working with the Ukrainians on negotiating an end to the war and plans to step down in January, was also cut out of the talks led by Witkoff and Dmitriev, they said.
One senior U.S. official said Secretary of State Marco Rubio was read in on the 28-point plan, but did not clarify when he was briefed.
"Secretary Rubio has been closely involved throughout the entire process of developing a plan to end the war in Ukraine. Any insinuation otherwise is completely false," State Department Principal Deputy Spokesperson Tommy Pigott said in a statement. "That includes speaking with both sides of this conflict - many times - to facilitate the ... exchange of ideas to establish a durable peace."
Some U.S. officials and others consulted by Reuters disputed that characterization, with one official saying the plan contains material that the secretary of state has previously rejected.

The situation has sparked worries inside the administration and on Capitol Hill that Witkoff and Kushner skirted the interagency process and that the discussions with Dmitriev have resulted in a plan that favors Russian interests.
It includes demands that Russia has previously made - that Ukraine give up some of its territory in the eastern part of the country that it still controls, recognize Crimea as Russian and pledge not to join NATO.
"This so-called ‘peace plan’ has real problems, and I am highly skeptical it will achieve peace," said Senator Roger Wicker of Mississippi, the Republican chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. "Ukraine should not be forced to give up its lands to one of the world’s most flagrant war criminals in Vladimir Putin."
Senator Mike Rounds, a Republican, told reporters at a conference in Halifax, Nova Scotia, on Saturday that Rubio had called him and other senators and suggested that the plan was delivered by Russia to the U.S. and sent to Ukraine. "It is not our recommendation, it is not our plan," Rounds said.
But Rubio later posted on social media that the proposal was authored by Washington. "It is based on input from the Russian side," Rubio wrote on X. "But it is also based on previous and ongoing input from Ukraine."

…<<​

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Continued..
>>

CONCERNS ABOUT DMITRIEV​

The administration’s discussions with Dmitriev have also worried some inside the intelligence community, a U.S. official familiar with the matter said.
Dmitriev has previously used his role at RDIF, the sovereign wealth fund, to make inroads with various Western governments and businesses, even amid American sanctions.
The CIA declined to comment about concerns within the intelligence community about Dmitriev.
During the first Trump administration, Dmitriev established contacts with the president’s team to reset relations between Washington and Moscow.
In a 2017 meeting with Erik Prince, the former CEO of Blackwater and a Trump ally, Dmitriev discussed U.S.-Russia relations, according to a Department of Justice report published by Special Counsel Robert Mueller in 2019. Mueller's team was investigating ties between the Trump team and Russia.
The meeting, which took place in the Seychelles, was one of the initial points of contact between Russia and the U.S. after Trump took office.
Prince did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
In a separate meeting with a friend of Kushner’s, Dmitriev drafted a reconciliation plan to strengthen ties between the U.S. and Russia, the report says.
The Mueller team said in its report that it did not establish that the Trump campaign coordinated with the Russians to influence the 2016 election.
Dmitriev also worked directly with Kushner during the first administration. During the pandemic, Dmitriev coordinated with Kushner on the delivery of ventilators to the U.S. The ventilators were provided by RDIF and caused concern among officials at the Treasury Department that the U.S. might be violating its own sanctions, according to a senior U.S. official.
In recent years, Dmitriev has appeared on various American television stations and at events such as the World Economic Forum in Davos to promote the strengthening of trade ties between the U.S. and Russia.
He pushed a similar message at the meeting in Miami, according to public readouts of the meeting.
His visit also included a sit-down with U.S. Representative Anna Luna, a Florida Republican. In the meeting, Dmitriev and Luna spoke about increasing trade ties between the U.S. and Russia. Luna's office did not respond to requests for comment.
The meeting between the two was set earlier in the month amid statements by Luna that she had received Russia's files on assassinated U.S. President John F. Kennedy.
In a video by RIA, one of Russia’s state news agencies, Luna is seen accepting a box of chocolates with Putin’s face inscribed on the front.
The images appear to show Luna and Dmitriev in a conference room at the Faena Hotel in Miami.
The Faena Hotel is owned by Access Industries, a company run by Len Blavatnik, according to the company's website. Blavatnik, who was born in Ukraine and is a dual U.S.-British national, initially earned his money partnering with Viktor Vekselberg, a Russian billionaire sanctioned by the U.S. for his ties to Putin.
Blavatnik fully divested from all Russian assets following Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine, according to his spokesperson.
Witkoff’s company, the Witkoff Group, does business with Blavatnik, including in Miami.<<

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Trump returns to old theme, hammering Zelensky. - At the same time:

- Rubio met with Senators yesterday & said, no, the US had nothing to do with the plan, per Senators.

- Not long after the State Department spokesman said oh yeah it’s definitely a jointly US-Russia developed plan.

- VP Vance has tweeted out full throated support for the plan.

- Rubio has jetted off to Geneva for negotiations.

- The administration seems completely contradictory in its stances. However Trump is obviously 100% backing it and that is its target audience.