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*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Jayrod
- Start date
beer 30
Footballguy
JaxBill
Footballguy
only thing I've seen where Russia has changed tactics is that when they shifted South, they started taking parallel roads if possible to protect convoys flank instead of one long line of juicy targets.
Jobber
Footballguy
I love the fact that a Russian literally can’t go outside to take a leak without satellites, drones, etc knowing about it. The orcs have no chance, and I’m going to enjoy watching every video of their demise that I can.
I can understand why some folks are upset that we’re giving the Ukrainians intel, but Russia deserves every bit of the pain they’re going to get and then some, and it’s already been established that they’re going to do diddly squat about it, too. Oh, they’re threatening “consequences” again? Snore!I love the fact that a Russian literally can’t go outside to take a leak without satellites, drones, etc knowing about it. The orcs have no chance, and I’m going to enjoy watching every video of their demise that I can.
JaxBill
Footballguy
I love the fact that a Russian literally can’t go outside to take a leak without satellites, drones, etc knowing about it. The orcs have no chance, and I’m going to enjoy watching every video of their demise that I can.
It's their own damn fault
@TrentTelenko: This map was direct messaged to me and was taken from a forum. It is a heat map of Russian SIM cards roaming Ukrainian cellphone networks. Logistics Thread
This is symbolic of several things.
1. Why you have to take away cellphones from your troops before battle.
1/ https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1524743911817850881/photo/1
Chadstroma
Footballguy
It is part of the game of helping but not helping too much or doing so covertly. It is a game that has been played since the very start of the Cold War between the Soviets (and now Russians) and the US and Western Allies. Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan are a few of the highlights of this game. When playing this game, everyone knows that you are playing the game but no one admits that you are playing the game because that IS the game.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
What was the last screw up on this level in international politics? Russia has failed every single area of their goals and in fact are losing ground with Finland and Sweden poised to join NATO (a main goal of this entire fiasco being to halt NATO expansion)
beer 30
Footballguy
Iraq and Afghanistan immediately come to mind but it's a different dynamic. It's hard to gauge just how bad this is for Russia and how quickly it's devolved into this quagmire. I don't think we'll see the full scope of it for years to come, especially if the sanctions stay in place. Russia will eventually fold, they have to. Even China is backing away from this mess. I'm sure there will be some countries that side with Russia but they are in no position to bolster up the Russian economy or help militarily so Mother Russia, she be screwed.
JaxBill
Footballguy
BayOfPigs?
Falklands?
Either Russian or American invasion of Afghanistan?
Not political but military, Carter's raid to free hostages in Iraq?
culdeus
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Iraq and Afghanistan are not even on the same level as this. As much as there were failures there were goals met. Russia not only hasn't met one single goal but is actually in a worse position on all these goals.
Dezbelief
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Was Bay of Pigs that much of a setback for us? It was a military screw up and embarrassing and set the stage for the Cuban Missile Crisis but on the same level?
Falklands was a bad decision on the Argentinian side and they got their rear ends kicked right out but still not nearly as bad.
Afghanistan both US and Russian versions... (throw in Vietnam)... costly and time consuming but still pale in comparison.
I am thinking actually of another Russian war.... the Russo-Japanese War. Russia goes to war and the whole world expects them to roll them.... sail a fleet all away around the world only to have it sunk in minutes. It helped set the stage for the collapse of the monarchy and was an absolute and complete military failure.
I looked up that battle, and it was a disaster for the Russians, but it was more in the manpower and machinery wasted. The battle lasted into a second day, but Japan crushed them.
Interesting note, Togo, the Japanese admiral in command, flew a naval signal flag for a single letter. The letter in question? Z.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
It was an absolutely humiliating defeat that was avoidable and instead of gaining certain goals (a Pacific warm water port, control over Manchuria and Korea, etc) actually lost out more. The military and economic strain from the war lead to internal unrest that further weakened the monarchy and contributed to the eventual fall from the Bolshevik Revolution. National prestige was destroyed as Russia was seen as legitimate European power and was expected to roll over Japan. So much of it is a total echo of what we are seeing today in the Urkaine.
The Z flag is a crazy oddity of history. You couldn't write this stuff in fiction because you would be laughed at for being over the line. What was the explanation for that?
For Japan or Russia? The former used it at Tsushima as a predetermined signal, meaning “The fare of the Empire rests on the outcome of this battle,” and the latter as a modern(and failed)symbol for victory. Greece used it to signify a ship’s independent movement against the Ottomans, with similar results as Japan, so Russia is apparently doing something wrong.
Side note: for all the flak France gets for military defeats, it turns out that Russia is actually really bad at winning wars on its own.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I meant why the Japanese flew it.
The Russians painted the Z on their equipment as a way to distinguish Ukranian Soviet made equipment versus Russian Soviet/Russian made equipment considering most of what Ukraine had to start the war was the same stuff the Russians had. When looking at a T-72 you need something to say this is Russian or that is Ukranian. It turned into a Russian domestic symbol of support for the war and victory.
Ok, I see. Looks like the use of a Z is at least partially coincidental, but it’s very clearly not working for Russia, and personally, I’m here for watching them lose outright.
culdeus
Footballguy
They also started the war with various letters for various conflict zones then changed them all to z to cover the fact they had to combine battalions, plus it was promoting nationalism.
Didn’t know that, but it still doesn’t matter. Russia isn’t winning this, in fact, I wouldn’t be too surprised to see Ukraine take back all of its own land.
beer 30
Footballguy
beer 30
Footballguy
I guess that depends on your perspective and I'd argue about meeting any kind of realistic, sustainable goals in either space, especially Afghanistan where after 20 years of fighting we not only left the country to the same people we went in with intentions to remove but left them a $7 billion dollar booty of military equipment. Was it as quick as the Russian crater? No. Was it an equally bad idea? I'd have a beer and talk about it with you.
All that said, I don't want to muddle up this thread with military blunder comparisons. We could discuss these until the cows come home and both be right. No question the Russian army collapse is one of the most spectacular losses we've ever seen. And you're correct, not only have they not obtained one stated goal but are now in full backpedal. I don't know how they salvage this and with Ukraine now going on the offensive it only stands to get worse.
I mean, neither Iraq nor Afghanistan involved initial American military defeat on the field coupled with the US being made an international pariah. Even the Russo-Japanese war didn’t have the foreign policy consequences for Russia that the current conflict seems to have created. This is a pretty uniquely disastrous outcome for Russia thus far.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
No way Putin stops until he says he won. In whatever way he defines winning at the time. I suspect once he has the area east of the Dniper River he's likely to stop (which will be kind of odd around Kyiv, so not sure how that works). Maybe he's just take the eastern areas and says they always wanted to be Russian. Even if he took all of Ukraine it will be an ongoing resistance for a long long time.
But this is gonna have long lasting consequences for Russia well beyond Putin's lifetime unless they take him out, which they are too scared and incapable of doing.
But this is gonna have long lasting consequences for Russia well beyond Putin's lifetime unless they take him out, which they are too scared and incapable of doing.
culdeus
Footballguy
I see no long term victory for Putin outside of maybe getting a toehold in crimea which he already had without the sanctions.
I don’t think Russia can hold onto any Ukrainian territory, not for very long, anyway.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
tri-man 47
Footballguy
But at one point would they stop destroying the country? At what point, especially in the east and south, will Ukrainians fell comfortable rebuilding and returning to their lives? So hard to predict.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
What is especially noteworthy is the fact Russia (and later, other European powers) looked down on Japan with a combination of racism and condescension. They’re not us; ergo, they’re terrible at war. The Czar and court found out the hard way that Asians can fight just as well as, and more viciously than, Europeans.
Nothing is ever certain, but Russia isn’t going to be much of a threat for a while, since they can’t field an actual army worth anything beyond committing war crimes.
JaxBill
Footballguy
@dszeligowski: Zelensky in an interview with Italian TV Rai1 has confirmed that Macron had proposed him to make concessions to Ukraine's sovereignty in order to come up with a face-saving option for Putin. "We are not ready to lose territory to save something for somebody" - added Zelensky
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
JaxBill
Footballguy
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I don't want to muddy the waters either but it is a fact that we "conquered" both countries with ease and with the logistical challenge of doing so half a world away while the Russians have been haulted and mauled literally next door to them.
There was never a military defeat in Afghanistan or Iraq in the war or individual battles but political defeat. Russia is beating beat in every way possible.
There was multi-national support and involvement supporting the US while Russia is isolated with a couple of exceptions.
The US destroyed a terror organization and dismantled an anti American regime (goals achieved). Russia's goals are actually worse than when they started. NATO is rejuvenated with focus, member nations are spending more on defense, and the alliance is growing (Finland amd Sweden).
The loss of equipment and men over 20 years is being dwarfed with what Russia has had in a few months. Not to mention the level and number of high ranking officers.
I could go on... it is simply not comparative in terms if level of failure.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Nicholas thought it would be an "easy win" and basically picked the fight largely due to racist attitudes. Similar to this, Putin thought this would be an easy win and the start of rebuilding the dismantled Soviet Empire.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
At this point, why would they concede to Russia? The more this goes on, the further the whole Putin is in. If I was Zelensky, I would keep pressing until I get the Crimea and Donbus region back.
JaxBill
Footballguy
Speaking of Russo Japan War, it appears some Russian separatist units are issued 5 shot rifles from that time period. I would guess the American equivalent would be the Springfield M1903.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin–Nagant
@HN_Schlottman: DPR troops are being issued Mosin–Nagants. I saw a little bit of this a couple months ago but thought it might have been an isolated incident. https://twitter.com/200_zoka/status/1525055727286599682
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin–Nagant
@HN_Schlottman: DPR troops are being issued Mosin–Nagants. I saw a little bit of this a couple months ago but thought it might have been an isolated incident. https://twitter.com/200_zoka/status/1525055727286599682
It depends on how long Russia wants to keep sending its soldiers to die, really. It’s certainly not going to be permanent, that’s sure.
If someone tries to make me use a weapon that my *checks notes* great-great-grandfather could have used, I’m immediately going to join the other side.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
What in the world?!
Russia is a joke. Each day marks it in exposing the walking corpse this country is.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
The Russians in general don't have as high regard for human life in warfare. It has a very long history of happily slaughtering it's own people from well before the Soviet Union and all the various Tsars.
Then they’ll run out of soldiers, which will take longer, but they’re still not keeping any Ukrainian territory.
Ron Swanson
Footballguy
So...no defense of Russia here, in fact it makes me supremely sad. But, I own one of these rifles. It is on the wall above me as I write this. It is a a very capable long range rifle. Terrible for close quarters but great for long distance. Even as old as it is. Mine was last refurbished by the Tula armory in 1932. Stored in salt domes in cosmoline until I bought it in the late 90's. There are a #### ton of them out there and they are all usable. They are basically the predecessor to the kalishnikov.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
It predates the M1 Garand. If you were handed an M1 an told to march into Canada where the military has been getting chewed up... you are telling me you would be pumped up?
Geez... I don't even know which war the Mosin Nagant was first used. Well before WWI for sure. Heck, it probably served in the Russo-Japanese War we have touched on earlier.
No matter how effective the weapon was... it is still a weapon from the 19th Century.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I had a few Mosins during the relic collecting years. I even wrote about it a bit in the long firearms thread here. It's just DPR troops cleaning off the cosmoline. That's Ukrianian citizen separatists and their only duty is to defend their towns. The Russian army is not using Mosins.
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