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Official Sam Bradford - QB (2 Viewers)

Deamon said:
He has the worst oline in the league.  While it may be fun and easy for you to say 'oh its another excuse', that is a valid hit on a qb.  You're comparing him to Cam?  No one is saying he's in Cam's league.  I definitely am not saying he's anything close to a league MVP. 

You mention a lot of his short passes, a lot of that is play calling.  A lot of that is nobody being open.  There were not a lot of plays last night where he had an open man downfield deep and had the time to stand in the pocket until they got open and just decided he didn't want to throw it to him.  Again, easy to throw darts at the guy especially after a loss, but the place was pretty quiet when his team was 5-0.  This loss was not at all on him.

Running game dominates???  Min is last in the league in rushing offense! 

The thing about Sam is that his excuses are ACTUALLY valid.  Terrible Oline, Atrocious Rush offense, his 4th offensive coordinator of the last 9 months, etc.  No one is calling him a great QB, but the lazy argument against Bradford truthers always seems to be that we think he's the next Brady.  He's an average NFL QB.
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For rushing, Minnesota does rank almost at the bottom (31st). A lot of that has to do with their poor RB production as well but still not very good. However for pass protection, they're middle of the pack at 19th.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 
FreeBaGeL said:
The O-line notion would be one thing if it were just this season, but Bradford's entire career has been this way.  His YPA is 26th in the NFL right now and it's his 2nd best YPA of his entire career, and that's in spite of him being in the top 10 in pass yards from YAC.  His career best YPA is 7.0 which would be good for 22nd right now, just ahead of Case Keenum.  

His YPA over the last 2 years puts him in the same range of guys that have completion percentages 10 points below him.  His yards per completion is barely better than some of the league leaders are throwing for in yards per attempt.

He's a unique QB, we can say that.  Nice and safe, maybe good for a game manager, but I can't recall any QB that's ever been less of a downfield throwing threat in the modern era.  Lowest percentage of passes over 10 yards in the NFL for the 2nd year running now, and I'd be surprised if he wasn't down there in his prior years as well (can't find the data). 

6-6 with the league's #3 scoring defense is really bad.  The other teams in the top 3 in scoring defense are a combined 16-5 and the top 5 is 30-14.  It seems like teams have figured out that all they have to do to beat Minnesota is play to take away the YAC as Bradford's YPA has spiraled downwards during this losing streak even as his completion percentage has skyrocketed upwards to historic levels.
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Waiting to hear Deamon's counter to these facts. :popcorn:

 
Deamon said:
Awesome article.  Took forever to read though, but good stuff in there.  People who have made up their mind years ago about him though will still say he sucks and won't read any information suggesting otherwise with an open mind.
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i don't think the problem with Sam Bradford has ever been that he's inaccurate. It's always been that he sucks.

 
Deamon said:
Awesome article.  Took forever to read though, but good stuff in there.  People who have made up their mind years ago about him though will still say he sucks and won't read any information suggesting otherwise with an open mind.
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Yeah a bit too many Gifs perhaps. New writer who I thought did a nice job.

I guess people would have to define what sucking means, as it is all relative. There are some better QB in the league and there are a lot of QB worse as well.

From my perspective as a Vikings fan I was not hoping for more out of Bridgewater than what Bradford did this season. As far as QB play goes my standards are pretty low after a few years of Ponder and Matt Cassell though. 

If Teddy Bridgewater would have been healthy and improved in 2016 I was hoping he would be able to put up the numbers that Bradford did. Maybe he would have, maybe he wouldn't have, but I am not disapointed by Bradfords play.

I disagree with massraiders list as I think Bradford outplayed about half of the QB he listed.

 
Biabreakable said:
Yeah a bit too many Gifs perhaps. New writer who I thought did a nice job.

I guess people would have to define what sucking means, as it is all relative. There are some better QB in the league and there are a lot of QB worse as well.
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I would define "sucking" as "like Alex Smith, only not as good." Alex Smith being pretty much the definition of mediocre.

 
I thought if you suck that would be below average or mediocre. But mileage may vary.

I have seen some levels of suck that Bradford could not aspire to.

 
CalBear said:
Yes. Bradford is below Alex Smith. Alex Smith is more or less his ceiling.
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Based on what criteria?

If you are talking about statistical performance Sam Bradford was a better passer in many categories in 2016 than Alex Smith.

Smith adds more as a runner than Bradford does, although Smith had somewhat of a down year in that area at age 32.

 
Nice to see him get a new OC. I noticed his WRs in the free agency lists too.

It's unreal what he has been through

 
Bri said:
Nice to see him get a new OC. I noticed his WRs in the free agency lists too.

It's unreal what he has been through
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What he's been through? You mean, sucking for seven years for three different teams? His coaches would get fired a lot less often if he didn't suck.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
The O-line notion would be one thing if it were just this season, but Bradford's entire career has been this way.  His YPA is 26th in the NFL right now and it's his 2nd best YPA of his entire career, and that's in spite of him being in the top 10 in pass yards from YAC.  His career best YPA is 7.0 which would be good for 22nd right now, just ahead of Case Keenum.  

His YPA over the last 2 years puts him in the same range of guys that have completion percentages 10 points below him.  His yards per completion is barely better than some of the league leaders are throwing for in yards per attempt.

He's a unique QB, we can say that.  Nice and safe, maybe good for a game manager, but I can't recall any QB that's ever been less of a downfield throwing threat in the modern era.  Lowest percentage of passes over 10 yards in the NFL for the 2nd year running now, and I'd be surprised if he wasn't down there in his prior years as well (can't find the data). 

6-6 with the league's #3 scoring defense is really bad.  The other teams in the top 3 in scoring defense are a combined 16-5 and the top 5 is 30-14.  It seems like teams have figured out that all they have to do to beat Minnesota is play to take away the YAC as Bradford's YPA has spiraled downwards during this losing streak even as his completion percentage has skyrocketed upwards to historic levels.
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I agree with FreeBaGel. Bradford is a below average QB1 that may be nice and safe at best. He's not the worst starting QB in the league, but he can't make all the throws anymore. The game that really stood out to me was Min @ Det. He went 31/37, but attempted maybe only two throws over 10 yds and the last one got picked. It was his final throw and you could tell the Lions were just waiting for it all game. 31/37 for 224yds with zero TDs and only 13 points scored against a very weak Lions D. And that was one of his best games. 

 
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TwinTurbo said:
I agree with FreeBaGel. Bradford is a below average QB1 that may be nice and safe at best. He's not the worst starting QB in the league, but he can't make all the throws anymore. The game that really stood out to me was Min @ Det. He went 31/37, but attempted maybe only two throws over 10 yds and the last one got picked. It was his final throw and you could tell the Lions were just waiting for it all game. 31/37 for 224yds with zero TDs and only 13 points scored against a very weak Lions D. And that was one of his best games. 
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Lions did not have a very weak D last year.

 
CalBear said:
What he's been through? You mean, sucking for seven years for three different teams? His coaches would get fired a lot less often if he didn't suck.





 
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Close to 1:1 ratio of OCs making it like every year he has to learn a new system.

Lost track of injuries

Worst WRs of any QB in recent memory, Mark Clayton is still probably one of the top WRs he's played with

Plays behind either bad lines or good lines where injuries change it to bad

Even if he has a supporting run game, the RB gets hurt or plays like total garbage

He finally goes to a good team and most of their WRs are free agents, ADP out for the year

It's like some child-like jinx or curse or that "who did you wrong in a past life" stuff

 
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Bri said:
Close to 1:1 ratio of OCs making it like every year he has to learn a new system.

Lost track of injuries

Worst WRs of any QB in recent memory, Mark Clayton is still probably one of the top WRs he's played with

Plays behind either bad lines or good lines where injuries change it to bad

Even if he has a supporting run game, the RB gets hurt or plays like total garbage

He finally goes to a good team and most of their WRs are free agents, ADP out for the year

It's like some child-like jinx or curse or that "who did you wrong in a past life" stuff
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or maybe....just maybe....it's him.

 
If you gave Bradford the following sets of WRs, his supporters would probably tell us how bad they suck at the end of the season (after they put up crap numbers):

Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, Davante Adams;

Julian Edelman, Chris Hogan, Malcom Mitchell, Danny Amendola;

Jarvis Landry, DeVante Parker, Kenny Stills;

Antonio Brown; Eli Rogers, Sammie Coates, Markus Wheaton;

TY Hilton, Donte Moncrief, Phillip Dorsett;

Allen Hurns, Allen Robinson, Marquise Lee;

Tajae Sharpe, Rishard Matthews, Harry Douglas;

Keenan Allen, Tyrell Williams, Dontrell Williams;

Pierre Garcon, Desean Jackson, Jamison Crowder;

Golden Tate, Marvin Jones, Anquan Boldin

Kelvin Benjamin. Devin Funchess, Philly Brown, Ted Ginn;

Somehow the QBs on these teams got by.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
I dont care either way as Im happy with the season he had. That being said, what parts of Bri's post could possibly be Bradford's fault? 
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  • The constant change in coaches/OCs (teams with good QBs don't have the turnover);
  • The "worst WRs" argument is crap (see post above) - good QBs make WRs look better than they are or make it work at least;
  • The "bad o-lines" could be legit, but is over-stated most of the time. It's not like he's under constant pressure on every throw (and sometimes how bad his line is gets exaggerated a bit).
  • His lack of having a running game supporting him is not really true or really all that relevant.


He's just not very good and that creates many of the issues that become excuses.

 
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Snorkelson said:
The Vikings won exactly 2 games without getting a defensive/special teams TD. 
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That may be true. They were also dead last in rushing in the NFL. 

Additionally, the bad o-line is not over stated with this bunch. 

As far as making WRs better...how do you know Bradford hasnt done that? I honestly dont know, have WRs played better after Bradford left? 

I think its fair to say that Adam Thielen improved this year. Impossible to say if it was because of or in-spite of the QB. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
That may be true. They were also dead last in rushing in the NFL. 

Additionally, the bad o-line is not over stated with this bunch. 

As far as making WRs better...how do you know Bradford hasnt done that? I honestly dont know, have WRs played better after Bradford left? 

I think its fair to say that Adam Thielen improved this year. Impossible to say if it was because of or in-spite of the QB. 
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Kenny Britt, with Case Keenum and Jared Goff throwing to him, went for 1000 yards this year. Tavon Austin and Brian Quick also had career highs. 

 
CalBear said:
Kenny Britt, with Case Keenum and Jared Goff throwing to him, went for 1000 yards this year. Tavon Austin and Brian Quick also had career highs. 
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Not sure what your point is. Britt never played with Bradford. Austin played a half season (rookie year) and Quick played 1.5 seasons (his first two). 

 
not to mention very little difference between the colts and vikings in the oline ranking from profootball focus and luck absolutely lit it up with no wr's whatsoever.  He would probably kill to have the vikings wrs

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Not sure what your point is. Britt never played with Bradford. Austin played a half season (rookie year) and Quick played 1.5 seasons (his first two). 
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The point everyone is trying to make is fairly obvious....maybe, just maybe, all the sucking has something to do with Bradford.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
That may be true. They were also dead last in rushing in the NFL. 

Additionally, the bad o-line is not over stated with this bunch. 

As far as making WRs better...how do you know Bradford hasnt done that? I honestly dont know, have WRs played better after Bradford left? 

I think its fair to say that Adam Thielen improved this year. Impossible to say if it was because of or in-spite of the QB. 
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It is true, however maybe 1-2 of those games they win anyway, it's just not how you want your team to win most of their games. As I was looking to see if that thought was accurate, I noticed that only one of those wins, week 17, did Bradford throw for multiple tds. (2 wins with other qbs as well) As a Lions fan I'll be happy to go against Bradford for the next 3-4 years. When the game is on the line and you are running a 2 min offense throwing screens to Patterson and 5 yd dumps to theilen/Rudolph isn't going to get it done. Perhaps oline/rb help will give him some more time or set up play action which, if I remember correctly, is a strong suit of Bradford. I doubt it all gets done in one year. 

He is an upgrade over the other qbs minny has trotted out there since Favre. When fellow lions fans start ragging on Stafford, I like to list the 15-20 qbs we've sifted through the last 12 years (pre Stafford). I just don't think he's going to carry your team on his shoulders. He needs an elite defense and help from the run game. 

 
Snorkelson said:
It is true, however maybe 1-2 of those games they win anyway, it's just not how you want your team to win most of their games. As I was looking to see if that thought was accurate, I noticed that only one of those wins, week 17, did Bradford throw for multiple tds. (2 wins with other qbs as well) As a Lions fan I'll be happy to go against Bradford for the next 3-4 years. When the game is on the line and you are running a 2 min offense throwing screens to Patterson and 5 yd dumps to theilen/Rudolph isn't going to get it done. Perhaps oline/rb help will give him some more time or set up play action which, if I remember correctly, is a strong suit of Bradford. I doubt it all gets done in one year. 

He is an upgrade over the other qbs minny has trotted out there since Favre. When fellow lions fans start ragging on Stafford, I like to list the 15-20 qbs we've sifted through the last 12 years (pre Stafford). I just don't think he's going to carry your team on his shoulders. He needs an elite defense and help from the run game. 
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All fair points, which I largely agree with. 

 
killface said:
not to mention very little difference between the colts and vikings in the oline ranking from profootball focus and luck absolutely lit it up with no wr's whatsoever.  He would probably kill to have the vikings wrs
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 LOL at trying to compare Bradford to Luck. And to your point, I think its fair to say TY Hilton is pretty good. MN's oline ranking was 29 for those that are interested. 

 
killface said:
not to mention very little difference between the colts and vikings in the oline ranking from profootball focus and luck absolutely lit it up with no wr's whatsoever.  He would probably kill to have the vikings wrs
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Luck has not lit it up. He has just thrown the ball a ton. Amongst passers with at least 1500 attempts since 2012, Luck is 23/25 in completion percentage, 17/25 in INT percentage, 9/25 in TD percentage, 15/25 in yards per attempt, and 28/25 in passer rating, He is behind guys like Alex Smith, Andy Dalton, and Carson Palmer in most of those stats. And, in fact, Sam Bradford has a higher passer rating than Luck over that time frame. The only rate stat where Luck significantly outperforms Bradford is TD%. 

That's not because Bradford doesn't suck, it's because Luck is seriously overrated.

 
CalBear said:
Luck has not lit it up. He has just thrown the ball a ton. Amongst passers with at least 1500 attempts since 2012, Luck is 23/25 in completion percentage, 17/25 in INT percentage, 9/25 in TD percentage, 15/25 in yards per attempt, and 28/25 in passer rating, He is behind guys like Alex Smith, Andy Dalton, and Carson Palmer in most of those stats. And, in fact, Sam Bradford has a higher passer rating than Luck over that time frame. The only rate stat where Luck significantly outperforms Bradford is TD%. 

That's not because Bradford doesn't suck, it's because Luck is seriously overrated.
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Seriously over rated? He had a similar year to Rodgers this year. He also threw the ball 17th most in the league.  

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Seriously over rated? He had a similar year to Rodgers this year. He also threw the ball 17th most in the league.  
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Rodgers: 65.7% completions, TD% 6.6, INT% 1.1, 7.3 YPA, rating 104.2.

Luck: 63.5% completions, TD% 5.7, INT% 2.4, 7.8 YPA, rating 96.4.

I suppose that's a little similar. But it's more similar to, say, Marcus Mariota: 61.2% completions, TD% 5.8, INT% 2.0, 7.6 YPA, rating 95.6.

 
CalBear said:
Rodgers: 65.7% completions, TD% 6.6, INT% 1.1, 7.3 YPA, rating 104.2.

Luck: 63.5% completions, TD% 5.7, INT% 2.4, 7.8 YPA, rating 96.4.

I suppose that's a little similar. But it's more similar to, say, Marcus Mariota: 61.2% completions, TD% 5.8, INT% 2.0, 7.6 YPA, rating 95.6.
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Ok? Either way, he's in the top 10 no matter how you look at the numbers. Even if one rated him top 3 in the NFL (no one does), top 10 wouldn't really qualify as seriously over-rated. I think there are only a handful of teams that would rather keep what they have vs having Luck. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Ok? Either way, he's in the top 10 no matter how you look at the numbers. Even if one rated him top 3 in the NFL (no one does), top 10 wouldn't really qualify as seriously over-rated. I think there are only a handful of teams that would rather keep what they have vs having Luck. 
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I think most people (certainly fantasy players) are putting Luck right after Rodgers/Brees/Brady (+Ryan), and certainly ahead of Mariota and Winston. And his numbers just don't support that. 

 
Tool said:
Lions did not have a very weak D last year.
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The Lions D was worst in the league in QB completion percentage and defensive passer rating. Bradford could not have asked for a better matchup for his style of play.

 
CalBear said:
Luck has not lit it up. He has just thrown the ball a ton. Amongst passers with at least 1500 attempts since 2012, Luck is 23/25 in completion percentage, 17/25 in INT percentage, 9/25 in TD percentage, 15/25 in yards per attempt, and 28/25 in passer rating, He is behind guys like Alex Smith, Andy Dalton, and Carson Palmer in most of those stats. And, in fact, Sam Bradford has a higher passer rating than Luck over that time frame. The only rate stat where Luck significantly outperforms Bradford is TD%. 

That's not because Bradford doesn't suck, it's because Luck is seriously overrated.
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4200 yards, 31 tds and 13 ints behind the 27 worst line in the league...yea that's over rated alright

 
CalBear said:
Luck has not lit it up. He has just thrown the ball a ton. Amongst passers with at least 1500 attempts since 2012, Luck is 23/25 in completion percentage, 17/25 in INT percentage, 9/25 in TD percentage, 15/25 in yards per attempt, and 28/25 in passer rating, He is behind guys like Alex Smith, Andy Dalton, and Carson Palmer in most of those stats. And, in fact, Sam Bradford has a higher passer rating than Luck over that time frame. The only rate stat where Luck significantly outperforms Bradford is TD%. 

That's not because Bradford doesn't suck, it's because Luck is seriously overrated.
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Yeah, td% is probably not the place to fall behind and try to make your case. Bradford might be top 10 in a points per completion league. Passer rating is an archaic measuring stick. 

 
Philly is thanking the Minn staff everyday for giving them a 1st round pick for this hack. At what point does the Viking fans quit making excuses for him? Probably when he's a back up on some other team. No team misses him; not very many teams would want him starting for them. JAG at the most important position.

 
G-King said:
Philly is thanking the Minn staff everyday for giving them a 1st round pick for this hack. At what point does the Viking fans quit making excuses for him? Probably when he's a back up on some other team. No team misses him; not very many teams would want him starting for them. JAG at the most important position.
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Feel free to run down a list of options the Vikings had at the time. Sometimes trades work out fine for both teams. He was a game manager, and he did well at it. As a fan, I am surely hoping he improves with the off season. 

 
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