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***Official Sweet Science Thread*** (3 Viewers)

PinkydaPimp said:
how many undercards?  ill watch as long as i can or until my newborn wakes up.  otherwise ill record it and check it late night or tomorrow.  better question... what are you drinking!?
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I'm about to light up a fat bowl and the grill. Living my best life.

 
115-113 here as well. I wish people cared more about boxing to realize what an amazing story Rungvisai is. 

SRS is a tough son of a #####. It's just so hard to beat him in any exchange because he punches right back so quickly after getting hit. Estrada did a real good job to get him into deep waters, but he's just a tank. 

 
PinkydaPimp said:
yea.  i mean we were supposed to get this fight twice now and it got called off twice due to funny business already.  it will probably be a :trainwreck:

but :popcorn:
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That Wilder opponents have a) taken dives for him in the past (Malik Scott, Stiverne in the last fight), b) Ortiz is by far and away the toughest opponent that Wilder's ever faced, and that c) there's a looming, monster payday with Joshua coming this year, that d) would be significantly diminished if Wilder took an L (and lost his belt)...I really think Ortiz is going to take some extra money, call it a career for all intents and purposes, and wind up taking a dive.

I'd love for him to go off script, or if for some reason Wilder's people don't think this fight needs to be fixed, but color me very skeptical.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
That Wilder opponents have a) taken dives for him in the past (Malik Scott, Stiverne in the last fight), b) Ortiz is by far and away the toughest opponent that Wilder's ever faced, and that c) there's a looming, monster payday with Joshua coming this year, that d) would be significantly diminished if Wilder took an L (and lost his belt)...I really think Ortiz is going to take some extra money, call it a career for all intents and purposes, and wind up taking a dive.

I'd love for him to go off script, or if for some reason Wilder's people don't think this fight needs to be fixed, but color me very skeptical.
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I think Ortiz gives him a real run for his money...heavy handed southpaw ...seems accurate with his punches...could be an upset 

I met DW at the Boxing hall of fame last june...very nice guy...very approachable and down to earth...he was also very humble and respectful being around all the great champions that were in attendance...no real reason i added this other than an FYI   

 
BustedKnuckles said:
I think Ortiz gives him a real run for his money...heavy handed southpaw ...seems accurate with his punches...could be an upset 

I met DW at the Boxing hall of fame last june...very nice guy...very approachable and down to earth...he was also very humble and respectful being around all the great champions that were in attendance...no real reason i added this other than an FYI   
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He seems like a perfectly nice guy. The story about boxing to pay for his daughter's medical costs is really inspiring. If he fights Joshua, the UK press will eat him up.

But I don't think he's the goods. I'd pick Ortiz to beat him in a straight fight, but I'm fairly convinced that Ortiz is going to take a dive. No poor reflection on Wilder, it's not him pulling the strings here.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
He seems like a perfectly nice guy. The story about boxing to pay for his daughter's medical costs is really inspiring. If he fights Joshua, the UK press will eat him up.

But I don't think he's the goods. I'd pick Ortiz to beat him in a straight fight, but I'm fairly convinced that Ortiz is going to take a dive. No poor reflection on Wilder, it's not him pulling the strings here.
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No disrespect, but it's amazing how people still think this type of thing happens, especially at the highest levels.  Despite boxing having a shady history at times (like baseball, college basketball, and soccer among other sports), in actuality, it's about as likely as Tom Brady throwing the Super Bowl. 

Ortiz for all his faults is an undefeated heavyweight who defected from Cuba for a chance to win the heavyweight title.  For this to make economic sense, he would have to be paid off what he would earn for a Joshua fight (probably around $8 million).  Then he would need to be paid off for the further difference between his earning power for a Wilder loss vs a Wilder win, including the small but real possibility he would actually beat Joshua.  This figure would therefore vary from around $5-$25 million.  Putting his odds of beating Joshua at about 4-1, figure this to be at the low end of around $10 million for a total of $18 million.  That's for a break even figure, not taking into account the value Ortiz puts on his legacy, the damage to his pride and body for either getting KOed or absorbing Wilder's shots for 12 rounds, etc.  So we are looking realistically at a $20 million payoff minimum.

So who would pay this?  You acknowledge it would not be the Wilder camp.  Al Haymon?  He's not exactly rolling in dough given how poorly the PBC is doing.  More importantly, Haymon is adviser to both Wilder and Ortiz and would open himself up to a major lawsuit if he suggested this to Ortiz, not to mention criminal charges.  How about Joshua's promoter Eddie Hearn?  Guess what; Hearn also promotes Ortiz and would actually relish Ortiz winning the fight.  Maybe Joshua-Ortiz wouldn't be quite as big as Joshua-Wilder but it would be a heck of a lot easier of a fight to make happen and would fast-track a path to have an undisputed World Heavyweight Champion under Matchroom's banner.  So how about Wilder's promoter?  Well, not only does Lou DiBella not have that kind of money, but Wilder works with him on a fight-by-fight basis.  After the Ortiz fight, he has no hold on Wilder.  That leaves... the Cuban government?    Joshua out of his own pocket?  It's just not realistic at all.

 
Keith R said:
No disrespect, but it's amazing how people still think this type of thing happens, especially at the highest levels.  Despite boxing having a shady history at times (like baseball, college basketball, and soccer among other sports), in actuality, it's about as likely as Tom Brady throwing the Super Bowl. 

Ortiz for all his faults is an undefeated heavyweight who defected from Cuba for a chance to win the heavyweight title.  For this to make economic sense, he would have to be paid off what he would earn for a Joshua fight (probably around $8 million).  Then he would need to be paid off for the further difference between his earning power for a Wilder loss vs a Wilder win, including the small but real possibility he would actually beat Joshua.  This figure would therefore vary from around $5-$25 million.  Putting his odds of beating Joshua at about 4-1, figure this to be at the low end of around $10 million for a total of $18 million.  That's for a break even figure, not taking into account the value Ortiz puts on his legacy, the damage to his pride and body for either getting KOed or absorbing Wilder's shots for 12 rounds, etc.  So we are looking realistically at a $20 million payoff minimum.

So who would pay this?  You acknowledge it would not be the Wilder camp.  Al Haymon?  He's not exactly rolling in dough given how poorly the PBC is doing.  More importantly, Haymon is adviser to both Wilder and Ortiz and would open himself up to a major lawsuit if he suggested this to Ortiz, not to mention criminal charges.  How about Joshua's promoter Eddie Hearn?  Guess what; Hearn also promotes Ortiz and would actually relish Ortiz winning the fight.  Maybe Joshua-Ortiz wouldn't be quite as big as Joshua-Wilder but it would be a heck of a lot easier of a fight to make happen and would fast-track a path to have an undisputed World Heavyweight Champion under Matchroom's banner.  So how about Wilder's promoter?  Well, not only does Lou DiBella not have that kind of money, but Wilder works with him on a fight-by-fight basis.  After the Ortiz fight, he has no hold on Wilder.  That leaves... the Cuban government?    Joshua out of his own pocket?  It's just not realistic at all.
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No disrespect taken, although obviously I disagree. 

My read of the situation differs from yours in that I don't think Hearn will put Joshua in with Ortiz until he's completely decrepit, and maybe not even then. I think Hearn thinks that Ortiz poses a serious threat, even at this advanced age. Remember, Ortiz was with Matchroom briefly. If he was in their house, with the big-money guy, why would he cross the street if there was a chance of a Joshua fight happening? It obviously sucks for us boxing fans, but Hearn's going to steer Joshua carefully. He's blasted Ortiz for failed tests and said he shouldn't be in the sport, and he's having Povetkin fight on his undercard. Hmmm.

Regarding Wilder, he's had at least two opponents take dives for him. Maybe more, it's possible to get hit with a good shot and sell it well.

So first let's go to the videotape:

Malik Scott: Happens at :22, but the damning replay is at :37:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jws9K_RTCy4

Here's a pretty good clear-eyed recap by Kelefa Sanneh for the NY'er: https://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/the-perfect-punch-or-the-perfect-dive

Stiverne 2: At :28 in the video, the second knockdown, the punch that supposedly sends him to the canvas hits his guard. Stiverne took some real shots in the fight too, but he was very clearly following instructions to get out early. Less definitive, but during the first knockdown at :03 to :04, after he gets hit, he kicks one leg out to land on his butt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS4i7a-L-9M&t=4s

If you're not convinced that previous opponents have dove for Deontay, probably no need to go on further. And if you need a recent, non-Wilder example...Mattyhsse/Kiram? C'mon.

If Wilder's team is paving the way against middling opposition, it stands to reason he's doing it this time. It'd be crazy to legitimately endanger Wilder right now. And, I'll say this: I don't know anything for certain. But I do think that it's either pre-arranged, or Wilder's management team is negligent putting him at risk before a big payday.

I bet Wilder KO and the fight to go under 9.5. :coffee:

 
Keith R said:
No disrespect, but it's amazing how people still think this type of thing happens, especially at the highest levels.  Despite boxing having a shady history at times (like baseball, college basketball, and soccer among other sports), in actuality, it's about as likely as Tom Brady throwing the Super Bowl. 

Ortiz for all his faults is an undefeated heavyweight who defected from Cuba for a chance to win the heavyweight title.  For this to make economic sense, he would have to be paid off what he would earn for a Joshua fight (probably around $8 million).  Then he would need to be paid off for the further difference between his earning power for a Wilder loss vs a Wilder win, including the small but real possibility he would actually beat Joshua.  This figure would therefore vary from around $5-$25 million.  Putting his odds of beating Joshua at about 4-1, figure this to be at the low end of around $10 million for a total of $18 million.  That's for a break even figure, not taking into account the value Ortiz puts on his legacy, the damage to his pride and body for either getting KOed or absorbing Wilder's shots for 12 rounds, etc.  So we are looking realistically at a $20 million payoff minimum.

So who would pay this?  You acknowledge it would not be the Wilder camp.  Al Haymon?  He's not exactly rolling in dough given how poorly the PBC is doing.  More importantly, Haymon is adviser to both Wilder and Ortiz and would open himself up to a major lawsuit if he suggested this to Ortiz, not to mention criminal charges.  How about Joshua's promoter Eddie Hearn?  Guess what; Hearn also promotes Ortiz and would actually relish Ortiz winning the fight.  Maybe Joshua-Ortiz wouldn't be quite as big as Joshua-Wilder but it would be a heck of a lot easier of a fight to make happen and would fast-track a path to have an undisputed World Heavyweight Champion under Matchroom's banner.  So how about Wilder's promoter?  Well, not only does Lou DiBella not have that kind of money, but Wilder works with him on a fight-by-fight basis.  After the Ortiz fight, he has no hold on Wilder.  That leaves... the Cuban government?    Joshua out of his own pocket?  It's just not realistic at all.
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ya im with you on this...i can see maybe fighters taking dives at the club fighter level....but taking dives in big fights with the whole world watching sounds crazy...too much at stake for everyone involved

 
Ilov80s said:
I kind of did- he didn't seem prepared at all, looked like he came in looking to get out quick.
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Agree, and I don't think Stiverne had anything else to fight for, either. He was a has-been, who, IMO, was brought back b/c he'd play ball.

Hope I'm wrong about this one, despite the past ones, and we get a legit fight. But prior history + motive = :shrug:

 
Fighting tomato cans for an easy payday and padding a record is a lot different than throwing a fight...when i see throwing a fight i envision shady guys making arrangements behind closed doors....i positivally know that fighters take dives so they dont get their asses kicked ...they are there to lose ...mike tyson fought a bum of the month many many times coming up the ranks...hell even Bruce Seldon fell down from just the wind of Tysons punch...and a lot of times those guys get paid crap money so nobody cares if they laid down.

 
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I don't mean fixed like he's working with the mob, just that he didn't approach the fight with a plan to win so much as a way to get out easily.

 
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