Shaolin Hangman
Footballguy
Cool, I'd missed/forgotten that. Thanks.
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***OFFICIAL*** Washington Redskins 2011 Off-Season Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DCThunder
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Sidewinder16
Footballguy
Another thing Bruce mentioned - he said Snyder considers these changes major and that the changes are for the whole organization. Says Snyder is moving in a totally new and different direction than where they were headed in '09.
Sebowski
Footballguy
It is impossible to have zero thought on it. I'm sure some things have crosses his mind, but he has not made a decision and won't until he watches every sanp and talks to Campbell like he said he would. My guess is that Campbell will be competing for the job and will probably win it.I got the impression, from Shanahan's comments on Campbell during the presser, that he's already done some research on Campbell and seems to be somewhat impressed. I don't think that cements anything regarding his future with the team, and you're right, I don't think he's given zero thought to the QB situation.
PantherPower
Footballguy
God I hope not.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
No worries on taking it personally. I was honestly curious. I think Shanahan was the right guy for the job...mostly due to the situation and the need for a strong presence at head coach. I think Zorn's lack of presence was one of his biggest detractors. I guess I just never saw what Shanahan -did- to make himself a great coach lately (aside from the trophies). I mean, you think of some guys, Parcells was successful with many teams and rebuilding, and Cower built a dynasty for many years in Pittsburgh, etc. I know Shanahan is a good coach, but I also felt like some of the recent comments have been too glowing of a guy who couldn't turn his Defense around and eventually got canned because of it. Yes, the Skins have a solid defense...and I'm hoping it stays that way, but I also worry about a coach who was unsuccessful at changing something that he and everyone else knew was a weakness. Failure to implement the plan, be it due to bad decisions, lack of decisions, or whatever, just worries me I guess...I wondered what other concrete evidence existed of his "goodness."
I'm far from a Bronco historian, but the "decent team he inherited" only went 8-8 his first season before he rattled off seasons with 13, 12 and 14 wins plus the 2 Super Bowls. He had 4 more double digit win seasons after that and only 2 seasons under 0.500.
And to say he inherited a decent team may be somewhat disingenuous. He was Denver's WR coach in '84, their OC from '85 to '87 and then Elway's QB coach from '89-'91. He had a hand in the development of Elway's early career and of the Denver offense before he ever became HC. It's probably more accurate to say he finally got full control of the project he had been working with.
In this thread, and the hiring thread, I've read a few times that his downfall at the end of his Denver career was his defense (and it was abysmal his last 2 seasons there). Some of that blame lays on him as HC (I'm not exactly sure what kind of control he had over the hiring and firing of his DC, but it seems like he probably had a lot), but he's not a defensive coach by any stretch of the imagination, so his only fault there may be keeping a DC around that shouldn't have been an NFL DC.
ETA: I wasn't trying to get personal, Fat Nick, so I apologize if I came off that way. Mostly I'm trying to play devil's advocate, because I have some reservations about hiring Shanahan, myself. I'm looking for the silver lining here.
Sebowski
Footballguy
If he wins the job, he'll have earned it. I'd be fine with that. One of Shanahan's strengths is his QB evaluation and coaching. He knows how to get the best out of QBs and work within their limitations.God I hope not.
Sebowski
Footballguy
Just said: "I'm not a friend guy. I don't hire friends. If you aren't good you aren't going to be with me."I hope he means that. I do not want the old Denver DC everyone is attaching to Shanahan.
Sebowski
Footballguy
These are the days I love having Snyder as our owner. Hearing Shanahan and Allen talk about Snyder's passion to win and all the resources he will afford them to do so makes me feel lucky I am not a Bengals fan. The guy has made some mistakes, but he is young and I believe he has learned from them.
TankRizzo
Footballguy
Slowik? Yeah, I don't want anything to do w/ that guy. But I'd imagine as the rumors go (they're terrible secret keepers), that Zimmer is the man and they can't exactly say anything with them being in the playoffs.
dgreen
Footballguy
Realistically, who do you think should win the starting QB job? A rookie? Collins? Brennan? A FA?God I hope not.
Shaolin Hangman
Footballguy
dgreen
Footballguy
I'm with you. But, I'll also add that we say this EVERY TIME Snyder does something. Right now, I don't see how this doesn't have some success. But, I also won't be surprised if this all goes horribly wrong in a couple years.
fatness
Footballguy
If he had that great a passion to win he would have gotten out of the way of winning years ago. The only change with this hire is that Snyder has been publicly embarassed into getting out of his own way, at least for the moment.
fatness
Footballguy
We win every offseason. It's not a good thing.
fatness
Footballguy
The Bengals are in the playoffs, the Redskins were 4-12. Bengal fans have a hell of a lot more to cheer about than Redskin fans do.
Shaolin Hangman
Footballguy
fatness
Footballguy
Campbell may do pretty well under Shanahan, if there's an O-line there for a change.God I hope not.
Shaolin Hangman
Footballguy
Campbell is another Mark Rypien, and by that I mean a slightly above-average QB who can excel with good players around him (no, I'm not comparing their particular quarterbacking attributes). Fans of the Redskins as much as any other franchise should be able to appreciate that given who they won Super Bowls with at QB. We're almost 40 years removed from the last HoF QB.Campbell may do pretty well under Shanahan, if there's an O-line there for a change.God I hope not.
Sebowski
Footballguy
You are insinuating that he doesn't. Joe Gobbs, Marty Schottenheimer, Bruce Allen, and Mike Shanahan disagree with you. I'll take their side. How he is viewed by the public and media isn't nearly as important to him as the public and media wants to believe.
fatness
Footballguy
Go ahead and overlook his years of failures, and trust the words of men who he's paid millions of dollars. If you want to avoid the truth, that's the way to go. Ha has never done "whatever it takes to win". He's trusted his impulses instead. The Bengals have a better team.
Ever done much reading about abuse victims? As soon as they're not being hit any more, some of them conclude that things are all good again and that the perp loves them.
Redskin fans sometimes remind me of abuse victims.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
You are confusing passion and ability.I have a passion to make sweet love to Denise from the Taco Bell commercial. Doesn't mean I have the know-how and skills to make it happen.
TankRizzo
Footballguy
If he really did have a big falling out with Vinny and he's disassociated himself from him for good, I will be a lot more hopeful. If Vinny ever shows up in the owner's box or around town at the Palms I think my heart will sink.
Sebowski
Footballguy
And the Bengals are about to lose their best coach because they don't won't to pay what it will take to keep him. Guess where most people have that great coach going? Yup, to Dan Snyder's Redskins. I'll take Snyder every time over 90% of the other owners.
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
One of the things Shanahan mentioned during the presser was that he preferred "going away" for training camp. But only on the condition that the right facility could be acquired for use (has good fields, good meeting rooms, etc.). I imagine finding and contracting with a training camp site would be one of those other decisions they'll work on together.
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
The Examiner reported yesterday that they will be "in the broadcast booth for the first leg of NBC's NFL playoff wild card doubleheader on Saturday" which looks like that will make it the Jets/Bengals game.
PantherPower
Footballguy
You may be right, he might earn the starting job, and that in itself is a HUGE problem for the Skins. We need a MAJOR upgrade at QB. Campbell can't throw a deep accurate ball. He makes a lot of mental mistakes, and in crunch time, he does even worse. I don't have the stats, but I'm betting he's one of the league leaders in fumbles and sacks over the last several years. While the fumbles are partly due to a poor line, he does hold onto the ball too long, and the fumbles are all on him. I think the Skins haven't had an above average QB in so long most of the fans forgot what that looks like.Realistically, who do you think should win the starting QB job? A rookie? Collins? Brennan? A FA?God I hope not.
Campbell was 18th in TD passes, only 8 QBs threw more INTs, only 2 QBs were sacked more. He was 14th in yards thrown (an improvement for him) but rated 17th in passes throw for over 20 yards. And i'm betting the majority of those were 10-15 yards after the catch. He was 15th in overall QB rating. Again, average at best, and usually well below average across the board.
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Actually the off-season started back when Bingo Lewis was brought in as an "offensive consultant". So the way I look at it, I showed amazing restraint in holding off starting the Off Season Thread as long as I did...
dgreen
Footballguy
But does this upgrade necessarily have to happen in 2010?You may be right, he might earn the starting job, and that in itself is a HUGE problem for the Skins. We need a MAJOR upgrade at QB.Realistically, who do you think should win the starting QB job? A rookie? Collins? Brennan? A FA?God I hope not.
dgreen
Footballguy
Yeah, for years they acted like it was impossible. I'm sure that was one of the main complaints on the Season Ticket Holder Survey they did this year. While Snyder's heart may not have grown three sizes recently, he's at least taking steps to win back fans that he realized he was losing.
pablito
Footballguy
Sounds like you are saying that, even with a terrible O line, he managed to be middle-of-the-pack in most categories.
PantherPower
Footballguy
I would say in over 3.5 seasons that Jason has been a starting QB in the NFL, he's played BELOW average across the board. And I don't think you can use the excuse the Skins have had a horrible line for the last 4 straight seasons. This year, sure, but the last 4? NO.
NickyHatton
Footballguy
Yikes, I never thought I'd hear a Redskin fan say that. I'll take an owner who spends less but knows to delegate authority to people who know football any day of the week over dannyboy. Not that Mike Brown is like that completely but most owners realize they have no business making football decisions
PantherPower
Footballguy
Great point, and no it doesn't. But I don't think this team will win 8-10 games again until we do get a big QB upgrade.But does this upgrade necessarily have to happen in 2010?You may be right, he might earn the starting job, and that in itself is a HUGE problem for the Skins. We need a MAJOR upgrade at QB.Realistically, who do you think should win the starting QB job? A rookie? Collins? Brennan? A FA?God I hope not.
PantherPower
Footballguy
and let's not also forget Jason had one of the friendliest and easiest schedules you could EVER wish for this year. Just look at the top 5 picks in this year's drafts. Skins played everyone one of those teams (save their own of course)
Maybe that new scoreboard will have the scores of other games too.
dgreen
Footballguy
They certainly do poor job with that, but all the people that have said "They never show out-of-town scores" are wrong. I go to a lot of games and I've always seen some scores.
PinkydaPimp
Footballguy
I disagree. Campbell may not have had a breakout season, but i think he has done ok despite major issues around him. His stats have gotten better every year. I think the major focus needs to be on the Oline, and maybe take a flyer on a late round qb and try to develop him. Does Campbell have a lot to learn? sure. But either way, its definitely not out of the question that Campbell can win 8-10 games.Great point, and no it doesn't. But I don't think this team will win 8-10 games again until we do get a big QB upgrade.But does this upgrade necessarily have to happen in 2010?You may be right, he might earn the starting job, and that in itself is a HUGE problem for the Skins. We need a MAJOR upgrade at QB.Realistically, who do you think should win the starting QB job? A rookie? Collins? Brennan? A FA?God I hope not.
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PantherPower
Footballguy
Okay, I'm betting they never win a big game, when it counts, with Campbell at QB. And if you think about it, they never have. When the Skins had that great ending to the 2007 season when the made the playoffs, Collins was the QB. But you are right, with that defense alone, and upgraded line, and a solid RB to go with those TEs, they probably can win 8-10 games with Campbell. But I still say he's the polar opposite of what I'd call a clutch QB. If people think Romo struggles in the big game, I can't imagine what they'll say about Campbell...if he can ever play in a big game.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I agree with your basic premise here- he's a bit of a choker. He had several opportunities to save games in the two-minute drill this season and failed every single time. However, he did win NFC East road games in Dallas and Philly during the 2008 season. Sadly, that's about as much of a "big game" as the Skins saw in the last few years.
fatness
Footballguy
4 page article on Shanahan, which is entirely worth reading
It's highly complimentary of many things about him. His flaw seems to be personnel choices.
It's highly complimentary of many things about him. His flaw seems to be personnel choices.
Sebowski
Footballguy
I think he has learned to delegate since Gibbs was here. His biggest mistake after Gibbs was delegating to Vinny. Bad hire. For example, I'm note sure if Jeff Lurie is a great owner or just happen to make a great hire in Andy Reid. Hopefully Dan made the right hires with Allen and Shanahan.
fatness
Footballguy
So you value money over winning? No wonder you love Dan Snyder, it's been 10 years of bliss for you.
Sebowski
Footballguy
Done deal according to ES.
fatness
Footballguy
I agree with you on that. I think they're light years better than the men they replaced. I'd feel much better if they'd hire a personnel guy, and it'll be relieving if they hire Zimmer as DC.
Sebowski
Footballguy
I value his passion for winning. The money follows that. Some of you will never forgive him for his first few years on the job and refuse to believe he has learned from his mistakes. Some of you guys are just too stubborn and love saying "I told you so" above all else. You let your misguided hatred of Snyder get in the way of seeing things as they are today. This isn't 10 years ago. Let that go already. Take Gibbs, Marty, Allen, and Shanahan at their word. All Dan cares about is winning. So what if he didn't get that right his first year on the job.
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