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***** Official Westworld Thread ***** (1 Viewer)

question if Ford is really dead or that was a bot replica that he made in his lab..   I'm assuming it was a bot replica

 
So William goes to WestWorld with Logan, Logan dies in the park (meanwhile it is obviously impossible to die as William has basically just killed an entire army by himself), and the family then gives power to the dude who was with their son in the park when he died (not only do they not hold a grudge as super rich people are always very reasonable, but they love him even more). Oh, and he spends the majority of his time in a park over 30 years, not with his wife whose family has the power or running a presumably Fortune 100 company.

Not a make or break for me, but GTFO. 

 
I don't really see the story possibility of a bot replica of Ford that would need to be kept hidden.  Even if Ford wanted to download his consciousness, why would it need to be in Anthony Hopkins' body? 

I don't know exactly where/how they'd pick up in Season 2, but one way to do it would be where the incident is all blamed on Ford.  They need someone to take over, so what's left of the board turns to Bernard Lowe.  Maybe "Elsie" is brought in to run Behavior.  Then you have a faction of the park management that is actively working with the other sentient hosts (and probably some other faction, maybe headed by Charlotte) who they have to maneuver around.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
So William goes to WestWorld with Logan, Logan dies in the park (meanwhile it is obviously impossible to die as William has basically just killed an entire army by himself), and the family then gives power to the dude who was with their son in the park when he died (not only do they not hold a grudge as super rich people are always very reasonable, but they love him even more). Oh, and he spends the majority of his time in a park over 30 years, not with his wife whose family has the power or running a presumably Fortune 100 company.

Not a make or break for me, but GTFO. 
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I'll take "Lots of baseless assumptions" for $400, Alex.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
I don't really see the story possibility of a bot replica of Ford that would need to be kept hidden.  Even if Ford wanted to download his consciousness, why would it need to be in Anthony Hopkins' body? 

I don't know exactly where/how they'd pick up in Season 2, but one way to do it would be where the incident is all blamed on Ford.  They need someone to take over, so what's left of the board turns to Bernard Lowe.  Maybe "Elsie" is brought in to run Behavior.  Then you have a faction of the park management that is actively working with the other sentient hosts (and probably some other faction, maybe headed by Charlotte) who they have to maneuver around.
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I don't care who runs the park. There is zero chance you can hide a robot uprising from the public with a few dozen deaths on your hands. That incident would've been the end of the park IMO.

 
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Need to rewatch as I was a bit tired.

QA guys chasing Mave - Robots?

Same gun to kill the hosts and bernard?  I thought hosts couldn't kill.  Did they change ammo or something?

Willima got shot before but smiled when he got shot "for real " at the end.  Hows it different

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
I don't really see the story possibility of a bot replica of Ford that would need to be kept hidden.  Even if Ford wanted to download his consciousness, why would it need to be in Anthony Hopkins' body? 

I don't know exactly where/how they'd pick up in Season 2, but one way to do it would be where the incident is all blamed on Ford.  They need someone to take over, so what's left of the board turns to Bernard Lowe.  Maybe "Elsie" is brought in to run Behavior.  Then you have a faction of the park management that is actively working with the other sentient hosts (and probably some other faction, maybe headed by Charlotte) who they have to maneuver around.
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Well we know there was a host being made under the secret house and we never saw it completed. 

Ford needed Bernard to suffer and the others to free themselves by seeing Ford die. He needed Dolores to decide that on her own. But he does not really want to die, so he sends his host self instead. Prior to that, he was back in the lab, right?

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Baseless?

Who has been running the park for 30 years? 

Whose family owned the park?

Whose family had the money? 
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You are assuming all this stuff you just made up in your head about how William gets control of the park.

The show hasn't addressed it at all at this point.

So you're arguing that the assumption you created in your head to explain how William gets control of the park is stupid.

 
El Floppo said:
I get this.

For me, I find the ambiguous nature of who's a protagonist/antagonist or other really interesting, and tied into the overriding theme of the show: what is it to be human, to be conscious and self aware.
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Koya said:
I guess this is where I differ with a lot of folks. I DO care about the characters... just do so in a context of not REALLY knowing who is good vs bad, and perhaps that's part of the moral in that there is no such thing as objective goodness, or evil.  Or maybe there is but we live in the dimension of those shades of grey.

Either way, I care about Bernard.  I want to know more about Ford (and curious to see what's next for him one way or another). I care about MiB, and especially his motivations.  I care about Maeve... and again, her motivations and progression. Perhaps it's less the character I care about so much as what they represent both within us and society, but I definitely care. 

Above all, I care about Arnold I suppose, and this whole story is indeed about his vision, and I'm vested in seeing how this progresses. 
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What I was trying to say, just better.

 
Skoo said:
You are assuming all this stuff you just made up in your head about how William gets control of the park.

The show hasn't addressed it at all at this point.

So you're arguing that the assumption you created in your head to explain how William gets control of the park is stupid.
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You didn't answer any of my questions above, they lead in one direction. 

Enough on this, I'll gloat in 2 years when they fill that out.

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
Well we know there was a host being made under the secret house and we never saw it completed. 

Ford needed Bernard to suffer and the others to free themselves by seeing Ford die. He needed Dolores to decide that on her own. But he does not really want to die, so he sends his host self instead. Prior to that, he was back in the lab, right?
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Yes.  That Host could be Elsie.  Or Stubbs.  Or someone else.  The person it would make the least sense to be is Ford, IMO.  I suppose you could do a story where the real Ford is now living incognito somewhere in the park, but I just don't really see how that story would progress.

The show has given us textual clues to what Ford was doing.  The very first Shakespeare quote we hear in the pilot is from the The Tempest.  Ford refers to himself as The Magician.  And now we've seen, like Prosepero, Ford is prepared to lay his wand aside.  Even his name for his last narrative "Journey to Night" is a literary reference to the Dylan Thomas poem ("Do not go gently to that good night ...").

 
Skoo said:
You are assuming all this stuff you just made up in your head about how William gets control of the park.

The show hasn't addressed it at all at this point.

So you're arguing that the assumption you created in your head to explain how William gets control of the park is stupid.
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:lmao:

 
Pretty cool twist that in the end, Ford actually agreed with Arnold.

Up until last night they've been pitted as opposites.

"Oh, so you think you can control the hosts without me? Good luck with all of that! PEACE!"

 
I don't think we need to assume that Logan died.  The conversation made clear that he was to impulsive to run the company well.  It's just as easy to imagine that got left with the horse running him to the end of the world to get beat up a lot and the park security has to save him and his parents are grossed out by what happened, blame him for doing it himself - with a little help from William telling them what happened the way he wants - and them turning to William to run the place.

 
shuke said:
If you're so hung up on these types of details you're really missing what this show is about.
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I'm aware these details are in the weeds, but that backstory doesn't add up to me.

Regardless, I'm enjoying. It isn't Boardwalk Empire or Sopranos enjoyment for me, but def worth watching.

 
Skoo said:
Pretty cool twist that in the end, Ford actually agreed with Arnold.

Up until last night they've been pitted as opposites.

"Oh, so you think you can control the hosts without me? Good luck with all of that! PEACE!"
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Excited to rewatch now that we finally know what Ford's new narrative is/motivations in current period have been.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Yes.  That Host could be Elsie.  Or Stubbs.  Or someone else.  The person it would make the least sense to be is Ford, IMO.  I suppose you could do a story where the real Ford is now living incognito somewhere in the park, but I just don't really see how that story would progress.

The show has given us textual clues to what Ford was doing.  The very first Shakespeare quote we hear in the pilot is from the The Tempest.  Ford refers to himself as The Magician.  And now we've seen, like Prosepero, Ford is prepared to lay his wand aside.  Even his name for his last narrative "Journey to Night" is a literary reference to the Dylan Thomas poem ("Do not go gently to that good night ...").
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Nobody will care if Elsie or Stubbs reappear as a host though. Ford being alive would be a twist of note. 

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
Nobody will care if Elsie or Stubbs reappear as a host though. Ford being alive would be a twist of note. 
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I'm in the minority in that I don't think the show has really been about "twists."  It has had puzzles to solve, but they've all been set-up logically.  I don't think the goal is to just to make viewers gasp over the twists (which is why I think Sepinwall has been wrong about the show all season).  I think the first season has essentially been designed to put us into the position of putting our sympathies with the Hosts so that we are invested with them as they strive to consciousness and self-determination.  I think Ford has probably served his function in that narrative.  I could be wrong.  I did notice a few weeks ago that there were stories about Ed Harris returning for Season 2.  I didn't see stories about Hopkins returning.

 
I think Ford created a bot in his own likeness that will take over for human Ford that is now dead.  I thought it was clear in his speech about living on forever in his own work and his dialogue with Deloris that it is their world that he is moving from human to bot.

 
Bill Brasky said:
I think Ford created a bot in his own likeness that will take over for human Ford that is now dead.  I thought it was clear in his speech about living on forever in his own work and his dialogue with Deloris that it is their world that he is moving from human to bot.
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If that's the plan, why would he be assassinated in public?

I have no idea if there will even be a park in Season 2, but the one possibility that seems the most implausible would be a park that is still being "run" by Ford or his doppelganger.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
If that's the plan, why would he be assassinated in public?

I have no idea if there will even be a park in Season 2, but the one possibility that seems the most implausible would be a park that is still being "run" by Ford or his doppelganger.
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Yeah the whole point of replacing someone with a bot is that no one would know they were a bot...anything is possible but I think we've seen the last of Ford. 

(well, at least in THIS timeline anyway.....)

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
If that's the plan, why would he be assassinated in public?

I have no idea if there will even be a park in Season 2, but the one possibility that seems the most implausible would be a park that is still being "run" by Ford or his doppelganger.
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Don't get stuck on Ford's consciousness being in a bot that looks like him, if that's what's going down. No way he offs himself without preserving his mind in some regard, imo.

 
Hopkins will be 80 by the time season 2 starts.  Maybe a way for them to be able to go in a few directions here.  He looks like he's doing great, but you never really know.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
If that's the plan, why would he be assassinated in public?

I have no idea if there will even be a park in Season 2, but the one possibility that seems the most implausible would be a park that is still being "run" by Ford or his doppelganger.
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they were forcing him out and he's about to commit mass murder and he believes he has unlocked bot consciousness to create an uprising.  his work is complete?  I don't know.

I don't think him running things is what he wants it all.  pretty clear last night that he realized Bernard was right and has been trying to get them to reach the maze and take over themselves for 30 years.  maybe live on in his work isn't literal like with Bernard and he means the AI independence he has created.  I just think it's more likely he made his own Bernard in the hopes that it will solve the maze too.

 
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Leeroy Jenkins said:
Why did Ford have Bernard kill himself though?  He got lucky that it wasn't irreparable damage. 
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This is something that actually works much better knowing what we know from the finale.  He wanted Bernard out of the way, but he didn't want to wipe him.  Because Ford was orchestrating Maeve's escape plan (presumably to occupy the Delos security teams while he executed his plan at the gala), he could have Maeve go to cold storage and assume she would be able to repair the damage (hosts are shot all the time). 

Before the finale, you had to wonder what the end game was supposed to be with Bernard.  Was Ford assuming that nobody would ever find him in cold storage?  If he's found, any autopsy would reveal he was a host.  So it turns out, Bernard was meant to be found and brought back online with his memories intact. 

 
Koya said:
I guess this is where I differ with a lot of folks. I DO care about the characters... just do so in a context of not REALLY knowing who is good vs bad, and perhaps that's part of the moral in that there is no such thing as objective goodness, or evil.  Or maybe there is but we live in the dimension of those shades of grey.

Either way, I care about Bernard.  I want to know more about Ford (and curious to see what's next for him one way or another). I care about MiB, and especially his motivations.  I care about Maeve... and again, her motivations and progression. Perhaps it's less the character I care about so much as what they represent both within us and society, but I definitely care. 

Above all, I care about Arnold I suppose, and this whole story is indeed about his vision, and I'm vested in seeing how this progresses. 
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:goodposting:

Dolores realizing MiB was William was powerful...great acting.

 
El Floppo said:
love that I'm still guessing whether Delores or Maeve are just following program or exhibiting free will. 
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Delores is a bigger question to me.

I think Meave was following programming right until she got on the train.  The decision to get off was her own choice.  The narration over her act seems to back that up.

You could go either way on Ford's death right now.  And as a result you can do the same with Delores.  If it was all in her head, he is still alive.  If it all happened before somehow then he is possibly still alive.  If it all happened before but this time something was different, then he is possibly really dead.  All of that, is unless he did either send a bot up there to give the speech or he downloaded himself somehow into a computer somewhere.

If he sent a bot out there, for all we know, the bot was in the room with them the whole time there were talking about the Michealangelo painting.  The bots can't see what they aren't programmed to see or what will hurt them.  So bot Ford could have been there the entire time and followed him out of the room when he left. 

I agree with the poster above though - this wasn't a show of twists.  It was a puzzle.  And they gave you enough clues and hints that you could solve the puzzle while also leaving the ultimate answers up for grabs in a few places to keep the overall story going.  I think it was superb writing.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
This is something that actually works much better knowing what we know from the finale.  He wanted Bernard out of the way, but he didn't want to wipe him.  Because Ford was orchestrating Maeve's escape plan (presumably to occupy the Delos security teams while he executed his plan at the gala), he could have Maeve go to cold storage and assume she would be able to repair the damage (hosts are shot all the time). 

Before the finale, you had to wonder what the end game was supposed to be with Bernard.  Was Ford assuming that nobody would ever find him in cold storage?  If he's found, any autopsy would reveal he was a host.  So it turns out, Bernard was meant to be found and brought back online with his memories intact. 
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I wonder if Ford believed that Bernard encompasses his and Arnold's shared vision.  Then we don't need another android to have Ford's consciousness/ideas

 
Haven't rewatched yet, did they still leave it ambiguous about who was reprogramming the bots like Maeve?  It is presumably Ford/Bernard, but I thought the stamps still said Arnold.  Could be an homage. 

 
Slapdash said:
Haven't rewatched yet, did they still leave it ambiguous about who was reprogramming the bots like Maeve?  It is presumably Ford/Bernard, but I thought the stamps still said Arnold.  Could be an homage. 
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Ford at least strongly hints to Bernard and Dolores that he is the "Arnold" who is reprogramming the hosts (after Bernard claims that Arnold is still opposing Ford from the grave).  I would argue that Ford clearly admits as much. 

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Delores is a bigger question to me.

I think Meave was following programming right until she got on the train.  The decision to get off was her own choice.  The narration over her act seems to back that up.

You could go either way on Ford's death right now.  And as a result you can do the same with Delores.  If it was all in her head, he is still alive.  If it all happened before somehow then he is possibly still alive.  If it all happened before but this time something was different, then he is possibly really dead.  All of that, is unless he did either send a bot up there to give the speech or he downloaded himself somehow into a computer somewhere.

If he sent a bot out there, for all we know, the bot was in the room with them the whole time there were talking about the Michealangelo painting.  The bots can't see what they aren't programmed to see or what will hurt them.  So bot Ford could have been there the entire time and followed him out of the room when he left. 

I agree with the poster above though - this wasn't a show of twists.  It was a puzzle.  And they gave you enough clues and hints that you could solve the puzzle while also leaving the ultimate answers up for grabs in a few places to keep the overall story going.  I think it was superb writing.
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I felt like he knew she was coming to kill him- not putting my brain into any ford-bot schemes just yet. so the question to me, given that, is whether he knew because he programmed her to do it, or because he didn't program her and it was the out for her and the litmus test for him to prove that she had achieved autonomous thought.

and I also agree with RHE about the puzzle vs *gotcha*! twist thing. there are some unresolved items, but the way it was written/produced- it left pretty clear roadmaps for all of the action and resolution. honestly- I can't think of anything in the season that was superfluous, even if there are some things that are a little goofy (eg, the techs continuing to help Maeve).

so in my mind, the things that aren't resolved- episode to episode or now at the end of the season... will most likely be clearly addressed in the same manner they clearly addressed all of the overriding questions with the finale.

but off the top of my head- unresolved:

- Logan- alive/dead/where?

- Security guy nabbed by the ghost tribe

- programmer chick who was grabbed from by behind in scooby doo castle (by bernarnd... maybe).

- who is being built in the secret bot lab?

- do any of the bots actually have autonomy, or are they are operating under programming (Maeve, Delores.. even teddy seemed to reach a new level by the end of the episode). was very telling when Bernard tells Maeve that she's been this far before.

New things left from the finale:

- with Ford and board dead, what's to happen with the park? yeah, MIB wanted a park where there were consequences for the guests... so maybe he's got what he wanted? Bernard takes over, with nobody the wiser except for the one tech guy. but how do they control the bots?

- what happens to both tech guys?

- Samurai World? are there others?

- the note to Maeve about her kid... I thought it was just a spot somewhere in Westworld- but maybe it's in a different world? 

 
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