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***** Official Westworld Thread ***** (1 Viewer)

culdeus said:
So did Ford mean for Maeve to leave in the train, or at the last second change her mind.  This seems important as it does seem at least on the surface that Ford sent her on that mission.  If it wasn't him, and Bernardold didn't do it then whom?

And, I mean if she leaves the place I'm gonna assume eventually she will run out of power.  I'm under the assumption that when they get rekt they bring them in to recharge or something.
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Ford gave them choice. He put her on the train and gave her a choice: Leave the park or find your daughter.

 
culdeus said:
So did Ford mean for Maeve to leave in the train, or at the last second change her mind.  This seems important as it does seem at least on the surface that Ford sent her on that mission.  If it wasn't him, and Bernardold didn't do it then whom?

And, I mean if she leaves the place I'm gonna assume eventually she will run out of power.  I'm under the assumption that when they get rekt they bring them in to recharge or something.
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He gave her the choice.  He knew Felix would give her the information and he knew it would give her a clear choice - personal safety and freedom to apparently continue her programming path if she chose, or the free will to break the loop and chose her own story off programming.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
He gave her the choice.  He knew Felix would give her the information and he knew it would give her a clear choice - personal safety and freedom to apparently continue her programming path if she chose, or the free will to break the loop and chose her own story off programming.
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If Felix is not a host then Ford really took a chance that he and Sylvester would "go along" with all this. 

 
oh BTW - I know this is late but I forgot to mention it earlier.

She burned herself so they could remove the chips in her vertabrae.

I'm pretty sure the skeleton - lab dude was putting together was Mave

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Also, hypothetically Logan is dead, I don't see how a family business is passed along to someone who went in with him, but didn't come back with him.

Im not in the mood to type up every hole I see out there from my phone, but maybe a little more tomorrow. Above would scream at the top of my list though.
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Freeze all motor functions!

 
Hov34 said:
If Felix is not a host then Ford really took a chance that he and Sylvester would "go along" with all this. 
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I would guess that this is all part of her becoming sentient. She has to learn for herself how to wield her power and intelligence to blackmail the humans into giving her what she wants. Kind of goes along with the whole theme, that the hosts had to be "ready" to go out on their own and make their own choices.

If she can't convince the two idiots to enhance her, then she's not ready yet.

 
It was an ugly, brutal show, with no heart. Kind of like Fight Club with robots, with lots of confusing misdirection added.

If that's your thing, I am glad that you enjoyed it.

For me, it flat out sucked.

 
Hov34 said:
If Felix is not a host then Ford really took a chance that he and Sylvester would "go along" with all this. 
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Maybe.  But we have to assume that Ford knows everything that the hosts know, and Maeve knew everything about Felix necessary to pull his strings.  It's no different than a magician placing actions in your head to make you do something.  Ford knew Felix was compassionate about the life of the hosts and wanted to tinker with them, then he was caught up in this plot he thought was really happening, and then he would go through the steps that Maeve told him to.  It's not that far of a leap or jump to think that Felix would do one extremely compassionate thing - to him - and give her the information where she could find her daughter.  Ford played Felix as much as he played everyone else.  Because in the end, Felix was acting like a host controlled by Maeve right until the very end whereas Maeve broke with her programming and got off the train.

 
Okay fells, get your finale predictions in!

Here's mine (and I mean mine, these are not stolen from someone on Reddit, although my opinions are informed by what I've read there):

-Who is Wyatt: I think they're ALL Wyatt.  Teddy, Delores, Elon's Hottie... kinda like "I'm Neegan".  They're all Wyatt.  Delores

-The Maze is a McGuffin... it won't be important... perhaps it is actually PART of Ford's new storyline Maze gets you to the Church City where it all happened and reveals Delores is Wyatt and forces her and MIB/William to confront each other.

-Maeve leads a robot uprising with a few recruited bots, but it is all just a distraction for her grand plan to successfully escape the park, which she does Check

-Stubbs escapes the Indians, but when he gets back to HQ the robo revolt is full swing and many have already died.  He succeeds in snuffing it out.Not sure how Stubbs plays into it but I think Ford's reveries end up saving the day here, all according to his plan.

-Whatever went down 30 years ago ends with Delores going nuts, Logan dead at her hands, and William becoming the MiB  Check

-Ford pleased with himself at the end, but surprised about Maeve's escape if he finds out before it ends Check

ETA: I'm kinda thinking Ford's "Wyatt" storyline includes the maze and is meant to convince people that the hosts are really awakening... thus raising the stakes.  But it's still all just his storyline.  Meanwhile, Maeve's awakening is legitimate and unforeseen by him.  I think he knows of Maeve's awakening, but, maybe underestimates it.  It's what will remain at conflict for Season 2.  
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Delores = Wyatt  Yes

Maze = Church   No, seems way to obvious hindsight being 20/20, of course it was a figurative maze for the host to gain consciousness at the center.  It does force MIB and Delores to face each other though, and it does happen at the church.

Maeve = Uprising and escapes.  1/2 right.  Uprising to escape happens, but, in the end she is lured back with the location of her daughter.  Bernard said someone had programmed her to form an uprising and everything she is doing is the program rather than her free will.  You can't gain consciousness without your memories so she can't be free of the memory of her daughter.  We're left thinking she must have gained consciousness and went against her program for escaping the park.  

Stubbs looses to Fords Reveries = Did we even see Stubbs?  Even if he was one of the QA forces, it didn't play into making much difference in the story, imo.

Ford's Plan Worked = Yes, I think it did.  He announced the new narrative; Decent into Night.  The control room and overview of WW went dark and the operators were locked in the control room (just like the movie, btw).  I think he knew exactly what Deloris-Wyatt was going to do when she gained consciousness since at that point she is the sum of her memories which were all programmed by Ford and Arnold.  She became Wyatt and killed him and a lot of not all of the guests at the narrative party.  I'm a fan of the theory that Ford's death was figurative (he was the bot being made in the basement) and not literal (Ford really dead).  Mostly because I really like Hopkins and he's the best character on the show.  I hope he shows up in Season 2.  

Really really liked the Da Vinci painting and the human brain, I did not know that.  

 
tonydead said:
Delores = Wyatt  Yes

Maze = Church   No, seems way to obvious hindsight being 20/20, of course it was a figurative maze for the host to gain consciousness at the center.  It does force MIB and Delores to face each other though, and it does happen at the church.

Maeve = Uprising and escapes.  1/2 right.  Uprising to escape happens, but, in the end she is lured back with the location of her daughter.  Bernard said someone had programmed her to form an uprising and everything she is doing is the program rather than her free will.  You can't gain consciousness without your memories so she can't be free of the memory of her daughter.  We're left thinking she must have gained consciousness and went against her program for escaping the park.  

Stubbs looses to Fords Reveries = Did we even see Stubbs?  Even if he was one of the QA forces, it didn't play into making much difference in the story, imo.

Ford's Plan Worked = Yes, I think it did.  He announced the new narrative; Decent into Night.  The control room and overview of WW went dark and the operators were locked in the control room (just like the movie, btw).  I think he knew exactly what Deloris-Wyatt was going to do when she gained consciousness since at that point she is the sum of her memories which were all programmed by Ford and Arnold.  She became Wyatt and killed him and a lot of not all of the guests at the narrative party.  I'm a fan of the theory that Ford's death was figurative (he was the bot being made in the basement) and not literal (Ford really dead).  Mostly because I really like Hopkins and he's the best character on the show.  I hope he shows up in Season 2.  

Really really liked the Da Vinci painting and the human brain, I did not know that.  
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Michelangelo

 
So didn't MIB kill Maeve and daughter to see what that would feel like, or something along those lines?

If so, how was that different than the other 500 hosts he killed as William...they were innocent victims?

 
gump said:
So didn't MIB kill Maeve and daughter to see what that would feel like, or something along those lines?

If so, how was that different than the other 500 hosts he killed as William...they were innocent victims?
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His idea, was that if he could repeatedly massacre them eventually they would rise up and fight back.  They hit us over the head with that at least 4x in the finale. 

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Maybe.  But we have to assume that Ford knows everything that the hosts know, and Maeve knew everything about Felix necessary to pull his strings.  It's no different than a magician placing actions in your head to make you do something.  Ford knew Felix was compassionate about the life of the hosts and wanted to tinker with them, then he was caught up in this plot he thought was really happening, and then he would go through the steps that Maeve told him to.  It's not that far of a leap or jump to think that Felix would do one extremely compassionate thing - to him - and give her the information where she could find her daughter.  Ford played Felix as much as he played everyone else.  Because in the end, Felix was acting like a host controlled by Maeve right until the very end whereas Maeve broke with her programming and got off the train.
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But, in a law and order sense he could be charged with murder for allowing the hosts as much as he did to arm themselves and murder humans.  

My bet is that he was a host.  Otherwise most of the story breaks down, but they didn't really want to commit to it maybe for season 2 issues.

 
culdeus said:
His idea, was that if he could repeatedly massacre them eventually they would rise up and fight back.  They hit us over the head with that at least 4x in the finale. 
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Yea but when he described that killing to Teddy, I thought he framed it as he decided he wanted to kill to test himself or the feelings he'd have?

 
gump said:
So didn't MIB kill Maeve and daughter to see what that would feel like, or something along those lines?

If so, how was that different than the other 500 hosts he killed as William...they were innocent victims?
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Think that was the first time he killed a child. He wanted to see if he could do it, then if he could, how he would feel after

 
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gump said:
Yea but when he described that killing to Teddy, I thought he framed it as he decided he wanted to kill to test himself or the feelings he'd have?
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I didn't see it that way.  I saw it that he saw this park as his retirement plan. And he wanted as much as was practical to see if it was practical to develop it to that end, and it appears he did succeed.  It wasn't really about his feelings, as much as it was to enjoy his own death later.

 
Am I way off base here but William's development went from disliking the experience as it was not real, to increasingly demanding more realistic experiences right down to the park hosts having a win condition and being free to act on that. His win condition in his mind was finding the center of the maze and/or Wyatt.  He still at the end of S1 was not aware of who Wyatt was.   I think right up until the zombie army shows up he feels like he lost and perhaps he would never win. 

 
culdeus said:
But, in a law and order sense he could be charged with murder for allowing the hosts as much as he did to arm themselves and murder humans.  

My bet is that he was a host.  Otherwise most of the story breaks down, but they didn't really want to commit to it maybe for season 2 issues.
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He's dead, who cares what he is charged with. He's playing God. The laws of men don't compare. 

I don't think the story breaks down at all.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
He's dead, who cares what he is charged with. He's playing God. The laws of men don't compare. 

I don't think the story breaks down at all.
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He's dead? I can't imaging overlooking that, but it could be possible.  Are we talking about the same person? (Felix)

 
IMO Ford being a bot doesn't really make sense.

He had to show the board that the hosts are capable of killing humans. If he shows up alive in the future, everyone will know that Dolores didn't really kill a human, just another host.

Have to remember that while we as viewers have known since episode 1 that hosts can actually hurt living things, the board doesn't until Dolores goes on her killing spree.

Just my gut feeling, but it doesn't seem to me that Ford would concoct all of that and have it be a fake death at the end.

But we shall see.

 
culdeus said:
He's dead? I can't imaging overlooking that, but it could be possible.  Are we talking about the same person? (Felix)
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No I was talking about Ford. 

I don't know that Felix has to be a bot or the story breaks down.  Humanity is a complex existence with good and evil.  And sometimes the ends justify the means.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Maybe.  But we have to assume that Ford knows everything that the hosts know, and Maeve knew everything about Felix necessary to pull his strings.  It's no different than a magician placing actions in your head to make you do something.  Ford knew Felix was compassionate about the life of the hosts and wanted to tinker with them, then he was caught up in this plot he thought was really happening, and then he would go through the steps that Maeve told him to.  It's not that far of a leap or jump to think that Felix would do one extremely compassionate thing - to him - and give her the information where she could find her daughter.  Ford played Felix as much as he played everyone else.  Because in the end, Felix was acting like a host controlled by Maeve right until the very end whereas Maeve broke with her programming and got off the train.
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I don't think Ford needed to have that level of foresight. He programmed a dangerous host to wake up unexpectedly and take these low level techs by surprise. Ford didn't have to know there was a compassionate, sympathetic tech down there - he probably just assumed she would get the job done through force, as she did with Sylvester. 

 
culdeus said:
His idea, was that if he could repeatedly massacre them eventually they would rise up and fight back.  They hit us over the head with that at least 4x in the finale. 
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Or earlier on:   “I didn't pay all this money 'cause I want it easy. I want you to fight."

 
The biggest spoiler came from a reddit linked article to me which said that Hopkins was not planning on continuing with his role or consulting on the second season, and also said that future seasons may use an entirely different set of actors and location (Samurai World?).  I figured he'd die was just a matter of how.  

 
culdeus said:
The biggest spoiler came from a reddit linked article to me which said that Hopkins was not planning on continuing with his role or consulting on the second season, and also said that future seasons may use an entirely different set of actors and location (Samurai World?).  I figured he'd die was just a matter of how.  
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Hopkins is a smart man. Get as much distance between him and this turd of a show as possible.

 
culdeus said:
Am I way off base here but William's development went from disliking the experience as it was not real, to increasingly demanding more realistic experiences right down to the park hosts having a win condition and being free to act on that. His win condition in his mind was finding the center of the maze and/or Wyatt.  He still at the end of S1 was not aware of who Wyatt was.   I think right up until the zombie army shows up he feels like he lost and perhaps he would never win. 
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Agreed, he was pissed until he got shot. Then :excited:

 
culdeus said:
The biggest spoiler came from a reddit linked article to me which said that Hopkins was not planning on continuing with his role or consulting on the second season, and also said that future seasons may use an entirely different set of actors and location (Samurai World?).  I figured he'd die was just a matter of how.  
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Even though HBO shows are a big deal, I really never expect an A list movie guy to stick around with a TV show for more than a season. I guess I just implicitly assumed he wouldn't be back, though I had no idea how he would go out. 

 
The Gator said:
Think that was the first time he killed a child. He wanted to see if he could do it, then if he could, how he would feel after
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Found a summary of Ep 8.  What he says is, after his wife died, he wanted to do something 'truly evil'.  I guess dismembering soldiers and killing the dude by the lake don't count.

 
Limp Ditka said:
Hopkins is a smart man. Get as much distance between him and this turd of a show as possible.
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You mean the show that got more viewers in its first season than any other show in HBO''s history?

Totally understandable he'd want to leave that trainwreck.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Agree - which is why they made the point of showing a few of them see it happen and smile.  There is a theory that man will only ever truly be alive and free to determine his own destiny if he kills God.  Metaphorically, spiritually, really.  Doesn't matter.  The only true way to experience what life is would be to kill that God that you think or in this case know, is controlling your fate.
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that and the they started with an ending and worked up to it.   The ending being Delores kills God.

But logically, Delores should not have killed God.    she was always programmed primarily to see the good, not the bad.   That she attained consciousness and her first act is to murder someone goes against her nature.   But then we wouldn't have had such a dramatic ending

 
tommyboy said:
that and the they started with an ending and worked up to it.   The ending being Delores kills God.

But logically, Delores should not have killed God.    she was always programmed primarily to see the good, not the bad.   That she attained consciousness and her first act is to murder someone goes against her nature.   But then we wouldn't have had such a dramatic ending
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Her nature was programmed.  Everything she did up until she pulled the trigger was part of her programming.  Her first act wasn't murder - it was rejection of God.

The Christian corollary is that she sinned, yes.  And God let her do it - her choice.  The only true rule that Delores was not allowed to break was to harm a guest - at its core, harm (reject) God.  If she went slightly off her programming God would bring her back.  She had to stick to her loop and be sent back into that loop over and over and over again.  She wasn't allowed to reject it.  That was her real only rule - the rest of the stuff were parameters.

If they keep the Christian thread in her story even a little, she is going to come to admire and ultimately worship Ford as a thanks for giving her the ability to suffer and in that suffering find her true self.

 
Skoo said:
He had to show the board that the hosts are capable of killing humans. If he shows up alive in the future, everyone will know that Dolores didn't really kill a human, just another host.
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Or he doesn't show up in the future, rather, he lives in WW in the house with his family he made and continues to live out his narrative.  But, if he's not signed on for next Season then it doesn't matter. Has that reddit rumor been confirmed?

 
tommyboy said:
that and the they started with an ending and worked up to it.   The ending being Delores kills God.

But logically, Delores should not have killed God.    she was always programmed primarily to see the good, not the bad.   That she attained consciousness and her first act is to murder someone goes against her nature.   But then we wouldn't have had such a dramatic ending
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Not really, she killed all the original bots and Arnold 30 years ago.  Now she kills Ford and an unknown number of guests.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Her nature was programmed.  Everything she did up until she pulled the trigger was part of her programming.  Her first act wasn't murder - it was rejection of God.

The Christian corollary is that she sinned, yes.  And God let her do it - her choice.  The only true rule that Delores was not allowed to break was to harm a guest - at its core, harm (reject) God.  If she went slightly off her programming God would bring her back.  She had to stick to her loop and be sent back into that loop over and over and over again.  She wasn't allowed to reject it.  That was her real only rule - the rest of the stuff were parameters.

If they keep the Christian thread in her story even a little, she is going to come to admire and ultimately worship Ford as a thanks for giving her the ability to suffer and in that suffering find her true self.
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I had to read you post several times, but, I think you got it.  Consciousness finally allowed her to break the rule.

 
Hov34 said:
If Felix is not a host then Ford really took a chance that he and Sylvester would "go along" with all this. 
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Wasn't the premise Sylvester pimped out the hosts to his fellow workers? With respect to Felix, clearly he is enamored. Maybe he tasted some Mauve 

 
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