Omar Vizquel vs. Ozzie Smith (1 Viewer)

[Raider Nation]

Ozzie - 13 Gold Gloves

Omar - 11 Gold Gloves

 

[Tau837]

Is this a serious poll? Vizquel is a great defensive SS, but I don't see him in Ozzie's tier.

 

[Raider Nation]

Retired second baseman Rex Hudler played with Smith in St. Louis and, when he moved to the Angels, against Vizquel. Hudler said they are two peas in a pod. "I have a museum in my home," he said. "I have two position-player jerseys I'm very proud of. One of them is Ozzie Smith's and one of them is Omar Vizquel's. They are the greatest shortstops of our era, of all time. There will never be anybody better than them."

Asked to compare the two, Hudler said, "Ozzie was a little more athletic, but Vizquers feet were so quick. To be a shortstop, you have to have quick feet. He could avoid me when I slid so easily. I was a fast and physical player who liked to knock guys down. Omar would jump over me or trick me.

"Ozzie got into the Hall of Fame because he redefined the position because of his athleticism. He made plays nobody else could make. He was special. He stood out. He was a flashy player. Vizquel is more of a grinder, the kind of guy who could make that play ten times out of ten."

Doesn't sound like different "tiers" to me. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_/ai_n27879020

 

[Thunderlips]

So is Omar in the HOF?

 

[Tau837]

Retired second baseman Rex Hudler played with Smith in St. Louis and, when he moved to the Angels, against Vizquel. Hudler said they are two peas in a pod. "I have a museum in my home," he said. "I have two position-player jerseys I'm very proud of. One of them is Ozzie Smith's and one of them is Omar Vizquel's. They are the greatest shortstops of our era, of all time. There will never be anybody better than them."

Asked to compare the two, Hudler said, "Ozzie was a little more athletic, but Vizquers feet were so quick. To be a shortstop, you have to have quick feet. He could avoid me when I slid so easily. I was a fast and physical player who liked to knock guys down. Omar would jump over me or trick me.

"Ozzie got into the Hall of Fame because he redefined the position because of his athleticism. He made plays nobody else could make. He was special. He stood out. He was a flashy player. Vizquel is more of a grinder, the kind of guy who could make that play ten times out of ten."

Doesn't sound like different "tiers" to me. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_/ai_n27879020

It's one guy's opinion, and he's a former teammate and probably a friend of Vizquel's. Is that all you've got?Defensive metrics aren't the greatest, but still, consider the ridiculous gap in range factor: Smith 5.03, Vizquel 4.36.

ETA: And the average SS range factor for the rest of the league in each's career was 4.10. So Vizquel was 5.6% better than league average and Smith was 22.7% better.

 

[Raider Nation]

Retired second baseman Rex Hudler played with Smith in St. Louis and, when he moved to the Angels, against Vizquel. Hudler said they are two peas in a pod. "I have a museum in my home," he said. "I have two position-player jerseys I'm very proud of. One of them is Ozzie Smith's and one of them is Omar Vizquel's. They are the greatest shortstops of our era, of all time. There will never be anybody better than them."

Asked to compare the two, Hudler said, "Ozzie was a little more athletic, but Vizquers feet were so quick. To be a shortstop, you have to have quick feet. He could avoid me when I slid so easily. I was a fast and physical player who liked to knock guys down. Omar would jump over me or trick me.

"Ozzie got into the Hall of Fame because he redefined the position because of his athleticism. He made plays nobody else could make. He was special. He stood out. He was a flashy player. Vizquel is more of a grinder, the kind of guy who could make that play ten times out of ten."

Doesn't sound like different "tiers" to me. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_/ai_n27879020

It's one guy's opinion, and he's a former teammate and probably a friend of Vizquel's. Is that all you've got?

He makes a great point about Omar making a play ten times out of ten.If I had to have one of the field a ground ball cleanly to save my life, I'd want Vizquel.

 

[Raider Nation]

So is Omar in the HOF?

No. Neither is Jim Kaat and his 16 Gold Gloves.Your point?

 

[Thunderlips]

So is Omar in the HOF?

No. Neither is Jim Kaat and his 16 Gold Gloves.Your point?

Calm down Strapper...... just asking. Omar has better Runs, Hits, HR's, RBI, BA, OBP and Slugging than the Wizard of Oz.

 

[Tau837]

Retired second baseman Rex Hudler played with Smith in St. Louis and, when he moved to the Angels, against Vizquel. Hudler said they are two peas in a pod. "I have a museum in my home," he said. "I have two position-player jerseys I'm very proud of. One of them is Ozzie Smith's and one of them is Omar Vizquel's. They are the greatest shortstops of our era, of all time. There will never be anybody better than them."

Asked to compare the two, Hudler said, "Ozzie was a little more athletic, but Vizquers feet were so quick. To be a shortstop, you have to have quick feet. He could avoid me when I slid so easily. I was a fast and physical player who liked to knock guys down. Omar would jump over me or trick me.

"Ozzie got into the Hall of Fame because he redefined the position because of his athleticism. He made plays nobody else could make. He was special. He stood out. He was a flashy player. Vizquel is more of a grinder, the kind of guy who could make that play ten times out of ten."

Doesn't sound like different "tiers" to me. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_/ai_n27879020

It's one guy's opinion, and he's a former teammate and probably a friend of Vizquel's. Is that all you've got?

He makes a great point about Omar making a play ten times out of ten.If I had to have one of the field a ground ball cleanly to save my life, I'd want Vizquel.

Actually, he didn't make the play 10 times out of 10, he made it 984 times out of 1000. Smith made the play 978 times out of 1000. So every 1000 chances, Smith would make 6 more errors.But Smith's superior range got him a lot more chances - he had 5.22 chances per 9 innings in his career, compared to Vizquel at 4.62. That comes out to more than 1000 more chances despite the fact that Vizquel has played more games and innings. That means over their careers, Smith got roughly 1000 more outs. That more than offsets his higher error total.

 

[Tau837]

So is Omar in the HOF?

No. Neither is Jim Kaat and his 16 Gold Gloves.Your point?

Calm down Strapper...... just asking. Omar has better Runs, Hits, HR's, RBI, BA, OBP and Slugging than the Wizard of Oz.

Keep in mind Smith played in a different offensive era. Smith has a higher adjusted OPS+ than Vizquel.

 

[Thunderlips]

So is Omar in the HOF?

No. Neither is Jim Kaat and his 16 Gold Gloves.Your point?

Calm down Strapper...... just asking. Omar has better Runs, Hits, HR's, RBI, BA, OBP and Slugging than the Wizard of Oz.

Keep in mind Smith played in a different offensive era. Smith has a higher adjusted OPS+ than Vizquel.

Isn't the legitimacy of the stats and players in the "offensive era" questioned because of the various steroids scandals? If Omar was clean for his career...then I wouldn't think this would make a difference.

 

[Tau837]

So is Omar in the HOF?

No. Neither is Jim Kaat and his 16 Gold Gloves.Your point?

Calm down Strapper...... just asking. Omar has better Runs, Hits, HR's, RBI, BA, OBP and Slugging than the Wizard of Oz.

Keep in mind Smith played in a different offensive era. Smith has a higher adjusted OPS+ than Vizquel.

Isn't the legitimacy of the stats and players in the "offensive era" questioned because of the various steroids scandals? If Omar was clean for his career...then I wouldn't think this would make a difference.

Well, first off, you listed some things like runs and RBIs that are dependent upon teammates, so even if he was clean, his teammates may have been juicing. Then there are the differences in ballparks and general improvements in fitness, training, medical treatment, and nutrition, all of which contributed to Omar's era being stronger offensively.Regardless, Smith had a better adjusted OPS+.

Here is some relevant discussion from January 2008: MLB History: 11 Greatest Shortstops of All Time

Omar Vizquel. Vizquel is absolutely not a candidate for Top 10 all time status, and I included him in the discussion mainly to illustrate the point that, comparisons between Vizquel and Ozzie Smith are entirely unfounded. Vizquel has saved 99 runs above average in his career, this is a fantastic total. He has also been 155 runs below average at the plate, (it is easy to forget, given his late '90's offensive contributions, that he was once labeled "Omar the outmaker").

Ozzie Smith was 33 runs above average at bat. This is not so impressive, but is, as you can easily figure out, 188 runs more than what Vizquel was able to produce. Ozzie stole more bases (by far), and did so with a much better success rate. Ozzie drew more walks, and produced a similar batting line in an era of much lighter offense.

Defensively, he saved an astonishing 268 runs over the average shortstop. This is an earth-shattering figure, and it absolutely blows Vizquel out of the water. Saying that Vizquel is comparable to Ozzie Smith is like saying Eddie Murray is just as good as Lou Gehrig.

 

[Thunderlips]

So is Omar in the HOF?

No. Neither is Jim Kaat and his 16 Gold Gloves.Your point?

Calm down Strapper...... just asking. Omar has better Runs, Hits, HR's, RBI, BA, OBP and Slugging than the Wizard of Oz.

Keep in mind Smith played in a different offensive era. Smith has a higher adjusted OPS+ than Vizquel.

Isn't the legitimacy of the stats and players in the "offensive era" questioned because of the various steroids scandals? If Omar was clean for his career...then I wouldn't think this would make a difference.

Well, first off, you listed some things like runs and RBIs that are dependent upon teammates, so even if he was clean, his teammates may have been juicing. Then there are the differences in ballparks and general improvements in fitness, training, medical treatment, and nutrition, all of which contributed to Omar's era being stronger offensively.Regardless, Smith had a better adjusted OPS+.

Here is some relevant discussion from January 2008: MLB History: 11 Greatest Shortstops of All Time

Omar Vizquel. Vizquel is absolutely not a candidate for Top 10 all time status, and I included him in the discussion mainly to illustrate the point that, comparisons between Vizquel and Ozzie Smith are entirely unfounded. Vizquel has saved 99 runs above average in his career, this is a fantastic total. He has also been 155 runs below average at the plate, (it is easy to forget, given his late '90's offensive contributions, that he was once labeled "Omar the outmaker").

Ozzie Smith was 33 runs above average at bat. This is not so impressive, but is, as you can easily figure out, 188 runs more than what Vizquel was able to produce. Ozzie stole more bases (by far), and did so with a much better success rate. Ozzie drew more walks, and produced a similar batting line in an era of much lighter offense.

Defensively, he saved an astonishing 268 runs over the average shortstop. This is an earth-shattering figure, and it absolutely blows Vizquel out of the water. Saying that Vizquel is comparable to Ozzie Smith is like saying Eddie Murray is just as good as Lou Gehrig.

The article doesn't help itself though in regards to Omar's HOF chances by comparing two HOFers. It's a nice read though and puts things into a better perspective.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Ozzie Smith was the best defensive shortstop ever. Vizquel was the second best I have personally seen play. I don't think they are in different tiers as they are both in the top tier. However, Smith was just better in that tier.