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Pacman Jones (1 Viewer)

-The Cowboys of the 90's had a ton of questionable characters on that team.
I think this is the main reason why the belief that the end justifies the means persists there, even when they are no longer getting the results they want.
Said another way, what Cowboys ownership seems to forget is that they won in the 1990's in spite of those problems and not because of them. Moreover, it was only done due to having very strong leadership on that team originally with Jimmy Johnson and also with players who made sure that, whatever else you were doing, if you weren't working hard and pulling together you didn't have a place on that team.
:popcorn: I have been saying this. Everyone wants to say character is why Dallas is losing when it is not, all teams have guys who are not let's say very smart with their choices. If you have good LEADERSHIP in coaches and players that make you accountable then it will all work out. Dallas has the talent now they need the leadership/ The character while a good thing to have is not what makes you win or lose, that would be and always will be talent and strong leadership. Good character or bad character you can win if you have that leadership to pull all your talent together. SO PLEASE stop with character crap, while I would love Dallas to have all great character guys it will not stop me from rooting for this team. As long as they have a good plan to right they ship and win it all. Stop with the character nonsense this is not Sunday school it is freaken football, a game.
 
Man I don't think anyone is saying they got waxed 44-6 because of "character." But I suspect this is not a Productive Area of Discussion.
Yeah I really believe they had no intentions on winning that game. They fell on hard times and there was no one there to lead them. They did not believe they could win. They gave up on the season. They were dead in the water so to speak. A lot of that had to do with no leadership.You can't convince me that Philly is that dominant I mean Dallas just played Pitt down to the wire in Pitt, beat the Giants at home and lost in the final minutes to the Ravens at home in which the defense just flat out quit playing for some reason. 44-6 just shows this team is lost with no leader or belief in its self. It can be fixed and pretty fast this is the NFL and just look back at last season to this season. It can happen they have strong pieces in place to get it done.
 
Man I don't think anyone is saying they got waxed 44-6 because of "character." But I suspect this is not a Productive Area of Discussion.
Actually, I think this is what the discussion should be about.Fans that were willing to give a mulligan to players they didn't like, because they thought wins would come with it, and bought into the idea that the Cowboys thrive on the attention, negative or positive. Cowboys fans embracing Terrell Owens, to me, was unreal.

Three teams in the NFL, the Boys, Bengals, and Broncos, all seem to ignore red flags about character, and all three would qualify as underachievers. Not a big sample size, but I don't happen to think it's a coincidence.

I look forward to Pac's next arrest.

 
Yes, the flipside of my above post is the Bengals. Why do they sign so many "questionable" guys even while they never manage to make their team better? In Cincy's case I think the team is just mind-blowingly bad at evaluating talent, which at least I would not say of Dallas.
do they still?I thought they cleaned house this past offseason and then (only after a disagreement) they allowed Henry back who actually did finaly behave.
 
Eh, also Cedric Benson, though in fairness he was cleared. I haven't seen anything to indicate they are no longer going after guys with records but it could be true.

 
This was a roll-of-the-dice move by Jerry and the Cowboys. He took a chance on getting a guy who appeared to be playing at a pro bowl level prior to his year off. He gave him a minimum contract with no signing bonus. Cutting him cost Dallas nothing. He structured the deal so that Dallas gets back picks if Pac screwed up off the field. And btw, by Dallas not suspending him for his bathroom brawl and getting the NFL to suspend him, Dallas was able to recoup a pick from Tennessee. Had Dallas suspended him, then no pick.The bottom line is the dice roll didnt show a winning number. It is what it is. Time to move on. Jerry was at least smart enough to structure the whole thing so that they could move on with minimal impact. Easy come, easy go. As a Cowboy fan, I'm glad they at least tried this move. I know my team has an owner who wants to win. An owner who is trying to win. Many teams can't say that. I hope Jerry tries more things like this in the future. Some times it works (Charles Haley). Some times it doesnt.Time to move on.
I'm curious, though...Does it dull your enjoyment at all that Jerry Jones seems to build teams with players that tend to be low on character? I'd think it'd be sort of tough to root for players I don't respect, even if they help you win. I remember when Pacman was acquired and people thought he would help them win, most Cowboys fans seemed to be happy with it, but I kept thinking, "yeah, but you've got to root for this jackass every week." It seems like Cowboy fans more than almost any others are completely indifferent to how they win just as long as they DO win. I know my teams occasionally have had players on it that I disliked and for me it made it tough to watch. I could rationalize behaviors to an extent, but after a while it got to the point where I couldn't anymore. The Forest Gregg era in Green Bay was like that, although in that case, they didn't even have the winning to go with it. It was a pretty miserable time to be a fan.
Most "fans" just care about whether their uniform beats your uniform. Wins and losses.
Interesting. It sounds like almost a cultural difference then. They're almost like robots in uniforms to a lot of fans it sounds like. Where I come from, we tend to almost fall in love with not just the team, but a lot of the individual players. In Green Bay there's a hall of fame just for the Packers. We grow up on stories of great players (mostly from the Lombardi era), and feel like we almost know them. We put them on a pedastal, probably more than they should be. It's sort of a foreign concept to me that people can root for guys like T.O., Pacman Jones and other thugs and primadonna's and not bat an eye.
I get what you are going for. i love certain players too (usually high character guys-Witten is one for sure)I guess for me-If you told me at the start of the season my favourite team would have a bunch of "idiots off the field" on my team. Then you and then guarantee they would win the SuperBowl would I take it? The answer is yes.-The Cowboys of the 90's had a ton of questionable characters on that team.-The Detroit Pistons Bad Boy'sShould fans not have rooted for their team and their "uniform"?
You don't change your allegiance for any reason but I think there is a difference between embracing these athletes and voicing your disapproval.
Then we are talking semantics.I rooted for Pacman the Cowboy and did not embrace him personally. Didn't love the idea of him on the Cowboys, but thought the risk/reward ratio of the move was appropriate. His playing time was my biggest problem.
 
I think it's pretty unfair for people to criticize cowboy fans for rooting for their team just because they've got several bad character guys on the squad. Even though it seems like Dallas has a big problem with criminals/poor character guys, remember there are 53 players on the roster, and the particular players in question make up only a small minority. This isn't a Portland "Trailgangsta" situation where literally half of the team was made up of bad apples, and the fanbase eventually revolted, demanding changes.

Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.

 
Let's hope Pacman goes to jail because that's where he belongs. I am hoping he goes for at a minimum of 3 years so once he goes we will never have to hear about this not very good football player ever again, tired of hearing about this moron.

 
Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
But we do know which teams most frequently sign "guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves" and it's totally fair to criticize them for it.
 
Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
But we do know which teams most frequently sign "guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves" and it's totally fair to criticize them for it.
Oh, I completely agree. I have no problem with anyone criticizing and making fun of the Cowboys and Bengals for adding all these deviants to their teams. My point was it's unfair to criticize the fans of these teams for supporting them due to the said deviants on their teams. Just like it's unfair to criticize a parent for loving and supporting their kid even if they are a #### up. Being a diehard Nebraska football fan I have personal experience with this. Back in 1995, Lawerence Phillips did something despicable and deplorable, and was suspended for several games, but not kicked off the team. I had plenty of haters ask me how I could root for a team with LP on it. Pretty simple really. I disliked LP strongly from a personal standpoint due to his repugnant criminal actions, but once a player steps onto the football field on gameday all that off the field stuff doesn't matter -- it's irrelevant.
 
Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
But we do know which teams most frequently sign "guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves" and it's totally fair to criticize them for it.
Oh, I completely agree. I have no problem with anyone criticizing and making fun of the Cowboys and Bengals for adding all these deviants to their teams. My point was it's unfair to criticize the fans of these teams for supporting them due to the said deviants on their teams. Just like it's unfair to criticize a parent for loving and supporting their kid even if they are a #### up. Being a diehard Nebraska football fan I have personal experience with this. Back in 1995, Lawerence Phillips did something despicable and deplorable, and was suspended for several games, but not kicked off the team. I had plenty of haters ask me how I could root for a team with LP on it. Pretty simple really. I disliked LP strongly from a personal standpoint due to his repugnant criminal actions, but once a player steps onto the football field on gameday all that off the field stuff doesn't matter -- it's irrelevant.
Thank you for articulating what I have been trying to say....unsucessfully.
 
Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
But we do know which teams most frequently sign "guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves" and it's totally fair to criticize them for it.
Oh, I completely agree. I have no problem with anyone criticizing and making fun of the Cowboys and Bengals for adding all these deviants to their teams. My point was it's unfair to criticize the fans of these teams for supporting them due to the said deviants on their teams. Just like it's unfair to criticize a parent for loving and supporting their kid even if they are a #### up. Being a diehard Nebraska football fan I have personal experience with this. Back in 1995, Lawerence Phillips did something despicable and deplorable, and was suspended for several games, but not kicked off the team. I had plenty of haters ask me how I could root for a team with LP on it. Pretty simple really. I disliked LP strongly from a personal standpoint due to his repugnant criminal actions, but once a player steps onto the football field on gameday all that off the field stuff doesn't matter -- it's irrelevant.
Thank you for articulating what I have been trying to say....unsucessfully.
No problem.
 
Yes, the flipside of my above post is the Bengals. Why do they sign so many "questionable" guys even while they never manage to make their team better? In Cincy's case I think the team is just mind-blowingly bad at evaluating talent, which at least I would not say of Dallas.
I think it's pretty unfair for people to criticize cowboy fans for rooting for their team just because they've got several bad character guys on the squad. Even though it seems like Dallas has a big problem with criminals/poor character guys, remember there are 53 players on the roster, and the particular players in question make up only a small minority. This isn't a Portland "Trailgangsta" situation where literally half of the team was made up of bad apples, and the fanbase eventually revolted, demanding changes.

Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
I don't think people are criticizing them for rooting for their team but it is the way they all went to bat for Pacman. When Dallas picked him up, Pacman had been arrested six times and involved in 12 incidents when police were called. Dallas was the only team interested in him, that says allot. You can root for your team without rooting for the player.
 
Yes, the flipside of my above post is the Bengals. Why do they sign so many "questionable" guys even while they never manage to make their team better? In Cincy's case I think the team is just mind-blowingly bad at evaluating talent, which at least I would not say of Dallas.
I think it's pretty unfair for people to criticize cowboy fans for rooting for their team just because they've got several bad character guys on the squad. Even though it seems like Dallas has a big problem with criminals/poor character guys, remember there are 53 players on the roster, and the particular players in question make up only a small minority. This isn't a Portland "Trailgangsta" situation where literally half of the team was made up of bad apples, and the fanbase eventually revolted, demanding changes.

Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
I don't think people are criticizing them for rooting for their team but it is the way they all went to bat for Pacman. When Dallas picked him up, Pacman had been arrested six times and involved in 12 incidents when police were called. Dallas was the only team interested in him, that says allot. You can root for your team without rooting for the player.
 
Yes, the flipside of my above post is the Bengals. Why do they sign so many "questionable" guys even while they never manage to make their team better? In Cincy's case I think the team is just mind-blowingly bad at evaluating talent, which at least I would not say of Dallas.
I think it's pretty unfair for people to criticize cowboy fans for rooting for their team just because they've got several bad character guys on the squad. Even though it seems like Dallas has a big problem with criminals/poor character guys, remember there are 53 players on the roster, and the particular players in question make up only a small minority. This isn't a Portland "Trailgangsta" situation where literally half of the team was made up of bad apples, and the fanbase eventually revolted, demanding changes.

Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
I don't think people are criticizing them for rooting for their team but it is the way they all went to bat for Pacman. When Dallas picked him up, Pacman had been arrested six times and involved in 12 incidents when police were called. Dallas was the only team interested in him, that says allot. You can root for your team without rooting for the player.
I seriously doubt any Cowboy fan here stated Pacman was a quality guy.
 
From a pure financial/managerial point of view, the Pacman move was a decent gamble by JJ. The problem was that the team was already suffering from a lack of strong leadership. JJ makes too many of these types of moves.

Character is not the be-all end-all. It in no way defines or limits how much a team can succeed.....but it can have a huge impact on how badly they can fail. Bad character guys don't lower the ceiling, they destroy the floor. If you have too many bad character guys on a team, a small crack can quickly become a gaping crevace.

Pacman under that deal would have been a great gamble for many NFL teams...but it was a terrible gamble for the Cowboys.

 
Bankerguy said:
Dexter Manley said:
Chicago Hooligan said:
Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
But we do know which teams most frequently sign "guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves" and it's totally fair to criticize them for it.
Oh, I completely agree. I have no problem with anyone criticizing and making fun of the Cowboys and Bengals for adding all these deviants to their teams. My point was it's unfair to criticize the fans of these teams for supporting them due to the said deviants on their teams. Just like it's unfair to criticize a parent for loving and supporting their kid even if they are a #### up. Being a diehard Nebraska football fan I have personal experience with this. Back in 1995, Lawerence Phillips did something despicable and deplorable, and was suspended for several games, but not kicked off the team. I had plenty of haters ask me how I could root for a team with LP on it. Pretty simple really. I disliked LP strongly from a personal standpoint due to his repugnant criminal actions, but once a player steps onto the football field on gameday all that off the field stuff doesn't matter -- it's irrelevant.
Thank you for articulating what I have been trying to say....unsucessfully.
Bankerguy is thanking you, Dexter Manley, for being able to clearly lay out thoughts that he could not make clear by himself.
 
Bankerguy said:
Dexter Manley said:
Chicago Hooligan said:
Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
But we do know which teams most frequently sign "guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves" and it's totally fair to criticize them for it.
Oh, I completely agree. I have no problem with anyone criticizing and making fun of the Cowboys and Bengals for adding all these deviants to their teams. My point was it's unfair to criticize the fans of these teams for supporting them due to the said deviants on their teams. Just like it's unfair to criticize a parent for loving and supporting their kid even if they are a #### up. Being a diehard Nebraska football fan I have personal experience with this. Back in 1995, Lawerence Phillips did something despicable and deplorable, and was suspended for several games, but not kicked off the team. I had plenty of haters ask me how I could root for a team with LP on it. Pretty simple really. I disliked LP strongly from a personal standpoint due to his repugnant criminal actions, but once a player steps onto the football field on gameday all that off the field stuff doesn't matter -- it's irrelevant.
Thank you for articulating what I have been trying to say....unsucessfully.
Bankerguy is thanking you, Dexter Manley, for being able to clearly lay out thoughts that he could not make clear by himself.
:goodposting:
 
Bankerguy said:
Dexter Manley said:
Chicago Hooligan said:
Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
But we do know which teams most frequently sign "guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves" and it's totally fair to criticize them for it.
Oh, I completely agree. I have no problem with anyone criticizing and making fun of the Cowboys and Bengals for adding all these deviants to their teams. My point was it's unfair to criticize the fans of these teams for supporting them due to the said deviants on their teams. Just like it's unfair to criticize a parent for loving and supporting their kid even if they are a #### up. Being a diehard Nebraska football fan I have personal experience with this. Back in 1995, Lawerence Phillips did something despicable and deplorable, and was suspended for several games, but not kicked off the team. I had plenty of haters ask me how I could root for a team with LP on it. Pretty simple really. I disliked LP strongly from a personal standpoint due to his repugnant criminal actions, but once a player steps onto the football field on gameday all that off the field stuff doesn't matter -- it's irrelevant.
Thank you for articulating what I have been trying to say....unsucessfully.
Bankerguy is thanking you, Dexter Manley, for being able to clearly lay out thoughts that he could not make clear by himself.
:lmao:
:lmao:If this situation ever arises again I'll try and remember to create a Robert Smith alias.
 
Bankerguy said:
Phurfur said:
Yes, the flipside of my above post is the Bengals. Why do they sign so many "questionable" guys even while they never manage to make their team better? In Cincy's case I think the team is just mind-blowingly bad at evaluating talent, which at least I would not say of Dallas.
I think it's pretty unfair for people to criticize cowboy fans for rooting for their team just because they've got several bad character guys on the squad. Even though it seems like Dallas has a big problem with criminals/poor character guys, remember there are 53 players on the roster, and the particular players in question make up only a small minority. This isn't a Portland "Trailgangsta" situation where literally half of the team was made up of bad apples, and the fanbase eventually revolted, demanding changes.

Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
I don't think people are criticizing them for rooting for their team but it is the way they all went to bat for Pacman. When Dallas picked him up, Pacman had been arrested six times and involved in 12 incidents when police were called. Dallas was the only team interested in him, that says allot. You can root for your team without rooting for the player.
I seriously doubt any Cowboy fan here stated Pacman was a quality guy.
I am trying to find where this "quality guy" reference is coming from.
 
Bankerguy said:
Phurfur said:
Yes, the flipside of my above post is the Bengals. Why do they sign so many "questionable" guys even while they never manage to make their team better? In Cincy's case I think the team is just mind-blowingly bad at evaluating talent, which at least I would not say of Dallas.
I think it's pretty unfair for people to criticize cowboy fans for rooting for their team just because they've got several bad character guys on the squad. Even though it seems like Dallas has a big problem with criminals/poor character guys, remember there are 53 players on the roster, and the particular players in question make up only a small minority. This isn't a Portland "Trailgangsta" situation where literally half of the team was made up of bad apples, and the fanbase eventually revolted, demanding changes.

Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
I don't think people are criticizing them for rooting for their team but it is the way they all went to bat for Pacman. When Dallas picked him up, Pacman had been arrested six times and involved in 12 incidents when police were called. Dallas was the only team interested in him, that says allot. You can root for your team without rooting for the player.
I seriously doubt any Cowboy fan here stated Pacman was a quality guy.
I am trying to find where this "quality guy" reference is coming from.
"Cowboy fans went to bat for Pacman"
 
I didn't mean to say that you shouldn't root for your team because it has a bunch of bad people on it. If you're a fan of a team, you're a fan for life. Otherwise you're a bandwagoner.

But when you're sitting on your coach with your arm around your 8 year old son watching the game, and Pacman picks one off, it's got to make you cringe a little bit as you cheer for him while he runs it back, no? It's got to at least make it a little less enjoyable, doesn't it? I know playing fantasy football, I've enjoyed rooting for Kurt Warner a lot more than I've enjoyed rooting for T.O.

I think when Tennessee gave up on Pacman, most fans of other teams asked themselves if they wanted him for their team. For me I gave it about 5 seconds thought before I said "no way" and it wasn't because I thought he would be a bad player. It seemed like most Cowboys fans were instantly going "YES, YES, YES!" Granted, I'm assuming that based on a pretty small sample of people on some internet message boards, so I may be reading it wrong.

 
Bankerguy said:
Phurfur said:
Yes, the flipside of my above post is the Bengals. Why do they sign so many "questionable" guys even while they never manage to make their team better? In Cincy's case I think the team is just mind-blowingly bad at evaluating talent, which at least I would not say of Dallas.
I think it's pretty unfair for people to criticize cowboy fans for rooting for their team just because they've got several bad character guys on the squad. Even though it seems like Dallas has a big problem with criminals/poor character guys, remember there are 53 players on the roster, and the particular players in question make up only a small minority. This isn't a Portland "Trailgangsta" situation where literally half of the team was made up of bad apples, and the fanbase eventually revolted, demanding changes.

Another thing to consider is that we don't know the true character of all the guys on any team. We only find out about guys who get arrested or make public spectacles of themselves. For example, up until last year everyone thought Marvin Harrison was one of the classiest players in the league. For all we know any one of the "good character" teams may have several players who abuse their wives or children, for example, but the public doesn't know because no criminal charges have ever been filed.
I don't think people are criticizing them for rooting for their team but it is the way they all went to bat for Pacman. When Dallas picked him up, Pacman had been arrested six times and involved in 12 incidents when police were called. Dallas was the only team interested in him, that says allot. You can root for your team without rooting for the player.
I seriously doubt any Cowboy fan here stated Pacman was a quality guy.
I am trying to find where this "quality guy" reference is coming from.
"Cowboy fans went to bat for Pacman"
When Pacman was signed Cowboy fans were calling him a pro bowl CB and an awesome return man. The contract was called a work of genius with all upside and no downside. They said this guy deserves a second chance and welcomed him with open arms. I would estimate about 10% of the comments I saw from people claiming to be Cowboy fans were against the trade. I am not referring to just this board but everywhere.
 
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