Paleo / Primal Blueprint type diets (2 Viewers)

[culdeus]

What are you all doing about tooth brushing. Seems to be some momentum that this type of diet would suggest brushing before meals rather than afterwards. I'm still looking at info on this. Anyone got solid stuff?

 

[Chaka]

Huh?

 

[cosjobs]

As a big fan of Paul Jaminet, I am happy to report that he is staying as my guest later this week for the Paleo FX 2013 in Austin. We will be having a dinner he Paul, Darryl Edwards, Russ Crandall, Dr. Lane Sebring, some local food & Paleo bloggers, a Mother Jones reporter, and some local food scene chefs and farmers. It will be a pretty loose affair with wine, food and discussion. I'm pretty excited about it. I'll also be at the convention and most of the events there. I am thinking of doing a Paleo Re-Boot camp, where people come stay and do a 30 day intensive paleo diet, cooking, gardening, shopping and exercise program. No idea yet of the feasibility but its looking promising so far.

If anyone will be in Austin this week for the conference, shoot me a Pm.

 

[cosjobs]

We had a good dinner and confernece. Lots of positive movement for me and my property.

Paul Jaminet and I have agreed to convert Albert Oaks into a retreat for people to stay for 30 days to immerse into a lifestyle based on the principles of The Perfect Health Diet.We will be working on the docs and preparation of the program in the coming months with the hope of being open to the public by June 1.

The program will focus on the foods to eat and why, how to grow them, buy them and cook them. We will also have a fitness component and build a natural movement circuit on the property, as well as daily outings to Austin locations like Baton Springs for exercise. The program will work hand in hand with principles of sustainability and self-sufficiency working in and expanding the organic gardens, Hydroponics, Aquaponics, Aquaculture and chicken farming.

By the time they leave, it is our goal the they will have a huge jump start on getting their physical health and well-being back in order, with the tools to continue the lifestyle as second nature when they leave.

We also spent a lot of time talking with Dr. Terry Wahls and are hopeful that we may also begin offering her "Wahl's Protocol" concurrently with The Perfect Health Diet. Her plan is for people significantly more ill than our target audience and will require more a specialized program and personnel (e.g., Physical Therapists), so the conversion of the concept into an in-house program will probably take considerably more time and consideration.

 

[cosjobs]

If FBGs could take off a month in the very near future and would be willing to follow the plan here and give us feedback as we develop and implement the program, shoot me a Pm and maybe we can work something out. I'd like to get one or two of you over here as my guest during the developmental stage. It could even be a married couple.

 

[kutta]

If FBGs could take off a month in the very near future and would be willing to follow the plan here and give us feedback as we develop and implement the program, shoot me a Pm and maybe we can work something out. I'd like to get one or two of you over here as my guest during the developmental stage. It could even be a married couple.

I'm envisioning unshaved armpits, headbands, nudity, sandals, sitting Indian style, fire pits, Neil Young, rainbows, tie die, bad breath, bad weed, and bad beer.

 

[Chaos Commish]

If FBGs could take off a month in the very near future and would be willing to follow the plan here and give us feedback as we develop and implement the program, shoot me a Pm and maybe we can work something out. I'd like to get one or two of you over here as my guest during the developmental stage. It could even be a married couple.

I'm envisioning unshaved armpits, headbands, nudity, sandals, sitting Indian style, fire pits, Neil Young, rainbows, tie die, bad breath, bad weed, and bad beer.

Huh, I was envisioning a break from all that.

 

[Random]

If FBGs could take off a month in the very near future and would be willing to follow the plan here and give us feedback as we develop and implement the program, shoot me a Pm and maybe we can work something out. I'd like to get one or two of you over here as my guest during the developmental stage. It could even be a married couple.

I'd be in, but I already follow PHD pretty closely. Does that disqualify me?

 

[Chaka]

Sounds kinky.

 

[cosjobs]

If FBGs could take off a month in the very near future and would be willing to follow the plan here and give us feedback as we develop and implement the program, shoot me a Pm and maybe we can work something out. I'd like to get one or two of you over here as my guest during the developmental stage. It could even be a married couple.

I'd be in, but I already follow PHD pretty closely. Does that disqualify me?

Not necessarily. Since this is a complimentary beta trial we are hoping to find a sample that will show some demonstrable results at the end of the 30 days, so we get some solid, real testimonials out of it. But then again, it might be good to have someone here already into the program to help mentor the others early on, esp. before I am fulled staffed. Pm me your phone number and we can discuss.

 

[Chaos Commish]

If FBGs could take off a month in the very near future and would be willing to follow the plan here and give us feedback as we develop and implement the program, shoot me a Pm and maybe we can work something out. I'd like to get one or two of you over here as my guest during the developmental stage. It could even be a married couple.

Wish I could find the time.

Consider adding a kids program. Childhood obesity is a hot topic. I know some parents would be interested in adding health and fitness education to summer vacation/camp. I have a nephew who does very well with a summer basketball camp. Primal Camp with caveman training might be a kick of an idea to develop. Fishing, hunting and gathering could be involved. Maybe that's the worst idea you've ever heard. I can see that too. Kids are a pita.

On topic with paleo and business, I'm going to Peru next month to check out some ancient Andean tubers as potential commercial crops. Quinoa popularity is stressing South American farmers. They're not complaining about the demand but about meeting it. While quality farm land can be pricey per acre, Andean like desolate high country is cheap. I'm looking at land selling for under a grand an acre with fantastic water. Quinoa was the crop that got me looking, but some of these tubers seem way more exciting to me. The ahipa tuber looks most promising atm. Intercropping with quinoa and other ancient crops is likely. An 80 to 160 acre project in the lower eastern sierra slope may be seeking investment soon.

Which brings me to a third topic. Referencing your February post about athletes and paleo -- low carb fanaticism and paleo eating need a divorce. Guys like Sisson and Jaminet may have difficulty moving away from what they've written, but that shouldn't stop us (and neither are as bad as some). Carbs as refined sugars and processed grains suck. Carbs in tubers are great. Carrots and potatoes are health foods. They're great for weight loss because they're high on the satiety scale. I did a full blown potato diet the week before Easter, knowing the bunny was bringing baskets this past weekend. I was inspired by Dr. Guyenet. There's plenty of evidence for high tuber and carb consumption pre agricultural revolution. I think it's a missing link in some understandings of paleo principles. Low carb has it's utility, but it's also a fad. Even quinoa is high carb. I'm as light as I've been since high school right now and a week of neolithic tubers (in line with paleo thinking) helped get me there.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Some responses to some of Zuk's criticisms by Paul Jaminet here and Miki Ben-Dor here.

Didn't really care for either of those. Not sure they did anything but reiterate talking points.

Here's another response from Chris Kresser's podcast:

Chris Kresser: OK, so I know we’re 20-something minutes into this, and I imagine some people are getting antsy to hear about some other stuff, so let’s move on. The first thing I want to talk about is Marlene Zuk’s book calledPaleofantasy. I’m sure a lot of people have seen references to this online. It’s caused quite a splash in the paleo community. She’s an evolutionary biologist. I think she works at the University of California, Irvine. And she’s written some articles before this book on the same subject. I haven’t actually read the book. I’ve read her articles. There was one in The New York Times. And then I’ve read some reviews of her book by John Hawks and then one in The Wall Street Journal. And her claims, at least in the articles that I’ve read and based on the reviews that I’ve read, as they relate to the paleo diet and lifestyle, can be boiled down to these three concepts: One is that she says the idea that human evolution stopped in the Paleolithic Era is false and that it may, in fact, even be faster now than it’s ever been before. Number two, that there never was a time where humans were perfectly adapted to their environment. It’s always been a messy, kind of chaotic transition, and it’s more of a fluid process than a static event, this idea of adaptation. And number three, that there never was a single paleo diet or lifestyle or environment, and that when you look back in the late Paleolithic, the diversity of diet and lifestyle among different groups around the world was probably much greater than the diversity that exists between diets and lifestyles in modern times in different parts of the world.

So those were her three arguments, and her conclusion was that because of all those three things, the basic premise behind following a paleo diet and lifestyle is fantasy and unscientific and should be thrown out, essentially. Actually I agree with many of her points, and that might not come as a surprise to some of you who have read a lot of my work, because I’ve written and spoken about these things before. And I even agree with some aspect of her conclusion, but not all of it. I think there’s a little bit of a straw man argument going on here. Another phrase that comes to mind is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. John Durant had a bit of a scathing critique of the book and a very pithy tweet that said Paleofantasy should’ve been a blog post in 2010 rather than a book in 2013. And what he meant was that some of these critiques that she’s making have already been widely addressed in the paleo community and discussed a lot, and it doesn’t in any way invalidate what we’re doing here. So let’s take a look at each of her three may claims, and I’ll tell you a little bit about what I think of each of them, and then we’ll talk about her conclusion.

The first claim is that evolution didn’t stop in the Paleolithic. I think that’s absolutely true. I’ve talked about that a lot before. Mat Lalonde and I talked about that in our interview. I’ve written a few articles about that on my blog. I’ve used lactase persistence as an example, as she did in her articles and in her book. She uses that as an example of how evolution has continued in such a way that it can help us adapt to new foods that weren’t around during the Paleolithic area. I’ve also mentioned, and Mat and I talked about this, epigenetics. Changes in gene expression can happen in as little as one generation, and that can actually make us more or less tolerant of a certain food and cause other pretty profound changes. I’m not sure if she goes into epigenetics in her book, she didn’t in the articles that I read, but that’s another way that genetic or epigenetic changes can make us more or less fit for a modern environment in a really short time. However, on the other hand, we have to consider that lactase persistence is a really crude mutation. We normally have a gene that turns off our ability to digest lactose right after weaning or around the time that we’re weaned. And what lactase persistence is as a mutation is it just breaks that gene. It breaks that gene so that our ability to digest lactose doesn’t get turned off. So that’s a pretty crude or shallow mutation involving one single gene. It’s a lot easier to break something than it is to create something from scratch, so more complex mutations that would involve several different genes, which would be necessary for us to completely adapt to eating and processing cereal grains or legumes, for example, that would take a long time, and there’s not much debate about that. Those kinds of genetic changes take tens, hundreds of thousands of years or more to become fixated in a particular population. The example that Mat Lalonde used was, like, growing wings. Something on that level is going to take probably millions of years to evolve. It can’t happen in a few generations. It can’t even happen in a few thousand years. So we have to consider the scale and the complexity of the mutations that we’re talking about.

Some simple mutations definitely have occurred that might make some of us more or less tolerant of Neolithic foods, like dairy, which is one of the reasons why I’m always talking about the importance of individual variation and experimentation, but that doesn’t mean that none of the rules of evolutionary biology are true anymore and we’ve magically had all these complex mutations that would help us adapt to a modern environment. That’s a huge exaggeration, and it’s just not true. And even with lactase persistence, as quickly as that’s gone in the last 10,000 years, still only a third of the global population has that mutation, so still the majority of people in the world can’t digest lactose in adulthood very well.

The second idea is that humans never were adapted to a paleo lifestyle, or there wasn’t a kind of fixed period of adaptation where everything was hunky-dory. I think that’s true, too, but on the other hand, you have to consider that people living in the Paleolithic Era had a million and a half years, really, to adapt to the basic diet, which was vegetables, fruits, tubers, meat, fish, nuts, and seeds. Those foods have been a part of our evolutionary milieu for a very long time, and we had a long time to adapt to those. So even if the environment was changing a lot and the exact composition of those foods was changing a lot — which it was — and different groups in different parts of the world ate different compositions of those foods — which they did — You know, we have evidence even of modern hunter-gatherers, which I’ve talked about numerous times, that some people like the Kitava eat just a little bit of fish and a lot of tubers and fruit. People like the Tukisenta have even more of their calories from tubers, like 97% or something like that. And then you have the Inuit, who get most of their calories from fish and fat or sea mammals. And then there are a lot of examples in between. So it’s true that there was never a typical paleo diet and that there was always a process of evolution and adaptation going on, but it’s also true that neither the Inuit, nor the Kitava, nor the Tukisenta, nor the Okinawans, nor any of their ancestors anywhere in the world — We can say without a doubt that they weren’t eating Twinkies, they weren’t eating Cheez Doodles, they weren’t drinking Super Big Gulps or donuts. They also weren’t consuming grains or legumes as staples. There’s some recent evidence that suggests that some groups as far back as the Neanderthal time were eating some cooked grains or legumes, but most of the evidence suggests that those were not staples for most people. So again, there’s a middle ground here where we can say: Yes, there was never a time of complete adaptation, but there are foods that we’re much better adapted to eating than others, and those are the foods that form the paleo template that we talk about so much.

And kind of getting back to what I was saying before, just because we’ve had some minor adaptations to some aspects of the modern lifestyle, that doesn’t mean we just throw out the entire concept of mismatch, which holds that we’re genetically and biologically adapted to a general paleo type of template. I think that’s still a very valid concept. It still can really help guide our exploration into nutrition and health. And even if there’s plenty of room for individual variation within that and even if there are examples where we might be adapted to certain parts of the modern lifestyle, it doesn’t invalidate everything else we can learn from looking through that lens.

So I think we’ve pretty much covered all of the arguments there. Essentially, my take on it is Paleofantasy is a really catchy title, it’s probably a good way to sell books, but it’s a big of an exaggeration, and it maybe refers to an earlier argument for the paleo diet that didn’t incorporate these distinctions that we’ve been talking about, and I don’t think it’s any cause for concern or in any way threatens the message that we’re trying to get across.

 

[Statcruncher]

I did a full blown potato diet the week.

Interesting, I haven't seen that website before. I tend to agree that potatoes aren't bad but it's hard to take that guy too seriously when it's by "Chris Voigt, Executive Director, Washington State Potato Commission". Not saying that his website is incorrect, it just would typically lead people to think there are ulterior motives or biases.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I did a full blown potato diet the week.

Interesting, I haven't seen that website before. I tend to agree that potatoes aren't bad but it's hard to take that guy too seriously when it's by "Chris Voigt, Executive Director, Washington State Potato Commission". Not saying that his website is incorrect, it just would typically lead people to think there are ulterior motives or biases.

Read the Guyenet link. He addresses your concern. The thread he referenced from Mark's Daily Apple (linked in the footnotes) is a good read, too. Tons of plateaued low carbing primal dieters had amazing results.

Guyenet has also written a bit about how repetitive eating in any style can become chronic and your body will adjust similarly to creating higher tolerances to drugs. Chronic low carb is not as effective as carb cycling. Intermittent fasting on a set schedule is not as effective as a varied schedule. Etc.

 

[cosjobs]

If FBGs could take off a month in the very near future and would be willing to follow the plan here and give us feedback as we develop and implement the program, shoot me a Pm and maybe we can work something out. I'd like to get one or two of you over here as my guest during the developmental stage. It could even be a married couple.

Wish I could find the time.

Consider adding a kids program. Childhood obesity is a hot topic. I know some parents would be interested in adding health and fitness education to summer vacation/camp. I have a nephew who does very well with a summer basketball camp. Primal Camp with caveman training might be a kick of an idea to develop. Fishing, hunting and gathering could be involved. Maybe that's the worst idea you've ever heard. I can see that too. Kids are a pita.

On topic with paleo and business, I'm going to Peru next month to check out some ancient Andean tubers as potential commercial crops. Quinoa popularity is stressing South American farmers. They're not complaining about the demand but about meeting it. While quality farm land can be pricey per acre, Andean like desolate high country is cheap. I'm looking at land selling for under a grand an acre with fantastic water. Quinoa was the crop that got me looking, but some of these tubers seem way more exciting to me. The ahipa tuber looks most promising atm. Intercropping with quinoa and other ancient crops is likely. An 80 to 160 acre project in the lower eastern sierra slope may be seeking investment soon.

Which brings me to a third topic. Referencing your February post about athletes and paleo -- low carb fanaticism and paleo eating need a divorce. Guys like Sisson and Jaminet may have difficulty moving away from what they've written, but that shouldn't stop us (and neither are as bad as some). Carbs as refined sugars and processed grains suck. Carbs in tubers are great. Carrots and potatoes are health foods. They're great for weight loss because they're high on the satiety scale. I did a full blown potato diet the week before Easter, knowing the bunny was bringing baskets this past weekend. I was inspired by Dr. Guyenet. There's plenty of evidence for high tuber and carb consumption pre agricultural revolution. I think it's a missing link in some understandings of paleo principles. Low carb has it's utility, but it's also a fad. Even quinoa is high carb. I'm as light as I've been since high school right now and a week of neolithic tubers (in line with paleo thinking) helped get me there.

1. You are absolutely correct about the kids obesity epidemic and the need for these programs to filter down to the (and the poor), but I am not going to do it. There is a reason I don't have any kids myself and I have no desire to train someone else's.

but as far as the hunting and fishing- that will be part of the program. We raise chickens, have hydro and aquaponic setups, wicking beds and all kinds of other gardens. We show clients how to do all those things and also how to fish and hunt and process and cook the kill. 30 days is a long time and putting in stuff like that not only is in line with a Paleo lifestyle, it should break up the stay into some really fun things. I'm also thinking of having a fly-tying class in lieu of meditation...

2) Very interesting about the Peru taters. Save a few eyes for me to get going in my beds. Gary Nabhan is staying here this week and he said he thinks he has found the original strain of corn somewhere in central or south america and he's going to bring me some seeds. I'll hold back a couple for you. I know corn is not embraced by paleo, but my absolute weakness is corn tortillas and if I am going to continue to have them on occasion, I'd feel better making them from the mother of all heritage corn.

c) the Feb post brings up bad memories as the soccer team owner stiffed her bill for a LARGE sum. f athletes.

 

[cosjobs]

Which brings me to a third topic. Referencing your February post about athletes and paleo -- low carb fanaticism and paleo eating need a divorce. Guys like Sisson and Jaminet may have difficulty moving away from what they've written, but that shouldn't stop us (and neither are as bad as some). Carbs as refined sugars and processed grains suck. Carbs in tubers are great. Carrots and potatoes are health foods. They're great for weight loss because they're high on the satiety scale. I did a full blown potato diet the week before Easter, knowing the bunny was bringing baskets this past weekend. I was inspired by Dr. Guyenet. There's plenty of evidence for high tuber and carb consumption pre agricultural revolution. I think it's a missing link in some understandings of paleo principles. Low carb has it's utility, but it's also a fad. Even quinoa is high carb. I'm as light as I've been since high school right now and a week of neolithic tubers (in line with paleo thinking) helped get me there.

The PHD actually tells you to eat a pound of starches a day: potatoes are the preferred, followed by white rice and yams (last because of the sugars- fructose I think). Also taro and yucca may be on the list, but not on my plate. Pretty sure Jaminet is much more agreement with you on this topic than you realize.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I did a full blown potato diet the week.

Interesting, I haven't seen that website before. I tend to agree that potatoes aren't bad but it's hard to take that guy too seriously when it's by "Chris Voigt, Executive Director, Washington State Potato Commission". Not saying that his website is incorrect, it just would typically lead people to think there are ulterior motives or biases.

The potato-diet fad within the paleo community really started with the thread on Mark Sisson's site, which grew out of a very long exchange on Ray Cronise's blog. The Chris Voigt experiment is some independent confirmation of the effects, but it wasn't the impetus for its catching on as a paleo hack. After I saw the thread at marksdailyapple, I tried the potato diet myself for one week and lost about 8-9 pounds while feeling very full the whole time. I was trying to eat more than my appetite dictated, but potatoes are extremely filling. Anyway, after that I went back to the original source of the whole thing, the long and disorganized comments in Ray Cronise's blog, and organized Cronise's statements into a little FAQ. The following is based only on Cronise's statements; it doesn't incorporate any of the modifications or enhancements or whatever from the ultra-long thread at marksdailyapple, or from Voigt or Guyenet, or from any other source.

Potato-Diet FAQ

What's the basic protocol?

You will lose weight fast by eliminating meat, butter, oils and any sugar from your diet, and sticking to only brown rice and/or potatoes for 14 days. Either white potatoes or sweet potatoes are fine.

You can eat as much as you want, but don't eat just because it's "time." Eat only when you're hungry, and stop eating when you're no longer hungry. Skipping meals is okay.

Drink lots of water. No liquid calories of any kind.

Can I add flavorings?

Yes, but any flavorings should be low in calories and devoid of fat. Salt, pepper, herbs, and spices are fine. (Rosemary and chives go well with potatoes.) Soy sauce, vinegar, and hot sauce are fine.

Doesn't this work merely by creating a calorie deficit?

All diets work by creating a calorie deficit. This one is no different other than complete satiation and paradoxical control of blood sugar with a high-glycemic food.

Let's say your resting metabolism rate is 2200 calories. A 153-gram potato has 110 calories. That means you can eat 20 potatoes a day to break even. That's a lot of freaking potatoes. One cup of cooked rice is 160 calories. That's 13 cups of rice.

Starches are enormously satiating and way more satiating than simple sugars or fats. You might eat 20 potatoes or 13 cups of rice for a day. Maybe two or three days, but I'm betting you won't keep it up.

If you eat to satiety, you may end up eating only 3-4 potatoes a day or about the same amount of rice. The result is that you'll feel satiated while running a large calorie deficit.

What's so special about potatoes?

Potatoes are starches with complete protein, vitamin C, and a host of other micronutrients. You're basically flooding the body with glucose, while having just enough protein to remain nitrogen-positive. You're also getting a decent amount of vitamins and minerals while avoiding simple sugars.

A large serving of starch when you are glycogen replete often results in diet-induced thermogenesis. While a reduced-calorie diet will often suppress metabolism (inducing "starvation mode"), the excess of starch on this diet actually ramps up metabolism to burn more calories.

Flooding the body with glucose, in the absence of simple sugars or fat, is a simple trick to rack up a huge calorie deficit while remaining very satiated.

Won't a potato-only diet result in nutrient deficiencies? What about fat-soluble vitamins?

The idea that any nutrient is just days or hours away from being deficient is a myth. Besides, what makes you think metabolizing the fat on your body is any worse than digesting the fat in a salmon or pig?

Can I add non-starchy vegetables, like spinach?

Greens and other non-starchy vegetables are fine, but for purposes of the experiment, why not just eat potatoes? It's simpler and gives you less to worry about.

How about other forms of starch, like beans, peas, or lentils?

Any starch will work, but go for something that has a good amino acid profile. That's why potatoes are ideal.

Why can't I add fat? Potatoes taste a lot better with butter.

Adding fat would defeat the whole purpose of doing this. The point is not to give into cravings — especially for fat. Also, since you are flooding your body with glucose, any fat you consume will not be burned. It will go directly to adipose tissue.

Can this work as a long-term diet strategy?

It's not recommended. Potatoes are somewhat nutrient-dense, but they do not contain every nutrient your body needs. After 14 days, you should transition to a more complete diet.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Which brings me to a third topic. Referencing your February post about athletes and paleo -- low carb fanaticism and paleo eating need a divorce. Guys like Sisson and Jaminet may have difficulty moving away from what they've written, but that shouldn't stop us (and neither are as bad as some). Carbs as refined sugars and processed grains suck. Carbs in tubers are great. Carrots and potatoes are health foods. They're great for weight loss because they're high on the satiety scale. I did a full blown potato diet the week before Easter, knowing the bunny was bringing baskets this past weekend. I was inspired by Dr. Guyenet. There's plenty of evidence for high tuber and carb consumption pre agricultural revolution. I think it's a missing link in some understandings of paleo principles. Low carb has it's utility, but it's also a fad. Even quinoa is high carb. I'm as light as I've been since high school right now and a week of neolithic tubers (in line with paleo thinking) helped get me there.

The PHD actually tells you to eat a pound of starches a day: potatoes are the preferred, followed by white rice and yams (last because of the sugars- fructose I think). Also taro and yucca may be on the list, but not on my plate. Pretty sure Jaminet is much more agreement with you on this topic than you realize.

Ah, good and my bad. I haven't read the PHD book just the Drs Jaminet blog and various articles. They did seem to emphasize low carb for weight loss like Sisson, but I will defer to you here. Thanks. And what you're doing rocks. Were you the FBG who PMd me about aquaponics a long time ago and I replied hurried and rude and never got another reply? Sorry if so. Mixing forums and work has proven a bad time waster for me. It's why I bailed on the gardening thread. I'm very interested in your gardens. I have a lot to learn about growing tubers but I'll keep you in mind for some fresh samples for planting. They tell me one is closer to an onion genetically, is eaten raw and tastes like a carambola (star fruit). That sounds fun.

And thanks for the potato clarity Maurile. You are my muse. Nttawwt. I will probably replace my annual juice fast with an extended tuber time this fall. I thrived for six days. No issues at all. Calories around a 1000 per day. I wouldn't expect to sustain that long term, but that's wasn't my purpose.

 

[Reginald Cornsilks]

This thread is making me

I lost 115 lbs over 18 months eating low carb.

Gained 50 of it back when I stopped.

Started again in January and have dropped 35 lbs since starting. But this thread has really been turned on its head the past few pages.

Definitely a lot to think about.

I guess aside from the weight loss, I love low carb because of how healthy I feel. My skin clears up, I have more energy then I do when eating a calorie deficit diet. I only eat red meat 2 times per week and around 4-5 cups of vegetables Daily with plenty of olive oil, eggs, butter, etc. I can go for a year eating 20 carbs a day and literally never cheat. After the first 2-3 weeks my cravings for starches or tubers completely disappears. I have zero desire for them or any other sugary food and it helps me forget how much I loved ice cream and pasta.

I'm so worried about ever introducing natural tubers back into my diet because I know what they do to Me. They cause insatiable cravings for carbs, cravings that I simply cannot resist.

These last few pages have me thinking a lot though about what my next move will be. I know if I want to get back to running half marathons, I'll need to reintroduce carbs but right now I do P90x every morning and walk 4 miles on lunch break and have never felt more full of energy

 

[Chaos Commish]

This thread is making me I lost 115 lbs over 18 months eating low carb.Gained 50 of it back when I stopped.Started again in January and have dropped 35 lbs since starting. But this thread has really been turned on its head the past few pages.Definitely a lot to think about.I guess aside from the weight loss, I love low carb because of how healthy I feel. My skin clears up, I have more energy then I do when eating a calorie deficit diet. I only eat red meat 2 times per week and around 4-5 cups of vegetables Daily with plenty of olive oil, eggs, butter, etc. I can go for a year eating 20 carbs a day and literally never cheat. After the first 2-3 weeks my cravings for starches or tubers completely disappears. I have zero desire for them or any other sugary food and it helps me forget how much I loved ice cream and pasta.I'm so worried about ever introducing natural tubers back into my diet because I know what they do to Me. They cause insatiable cravings for carbs, cravings that I simply cannot resist.These last few pages have me thinking a lot though about what my next move will be. I know if I want to get back to running half marathons, I'll need to reintroduce carbs but right now I do P90x every morning and walk 4 miles on lunch break and have never felt more full of energy

I lost about 100 low carbing with intermittent fasting. The right eating lifestyle is whatever works. If someone is seriously obese, I still advise cutting carbs, but not because of some magical metabolic advantage. Because lowering calories causes weight loss. Pulling carbs cuts a lot of junk food; thus, alot of calories. I think pretty solid research suggests low carbers achieve both less appetite and less energy, so higher carbers will consume a little more and burn a little more. Again, whatever works. I am exercising more than I did 100 pounds ago and I have control of carbs.

The right carbs are filling. See Maurile above. There are some possible health concerns with being permanently ketogenic. I think Dr Kurt Harris discussed it shortly before he stopped blogging, and he was ketoman for a couple years at the Panu blog. Plenty of anti-low-carb information has poured in this past year, but none of it is earth shattering. If it works, do it. Just understand paleo and low carb are not married. You can eat clean unprocessed foods based on paleolithic-like sources and be high or low carb. Grains led the agricultural revolution. Later processing led to junkfood up and down our grocer's aisles. Because these bad guys are mostly carbs does not make carbs a bad guy.

I went through a lot of what you are describing, but I think it's the combination of sugar, salt, fat and carbs in crap foods that send someone in ketosis off on a binge. A plain boiled potato is filling and glycogen restoring, both good things.

Eating less calories than you burn is still the only proven way to lose weight.

Paleo is basically an elimination diet

Eliminate grains and legumes

Eliminate sweets with refined sugars

Eliminate vegetable, seed and legume oils

Eliminate foods grown or fed with insecticides, pesticides, fungicides, hormones and antibiotics.

Limit very sweet fruits

Primal says do that at least 80% of the time. Keep carbs under 50 grams for rapid weight loss, under 100 for steady weight loss, under 150 for maintenance. I live by the 80% and think the carb protocols are flawed. I doubt I would have said that +40 pounds ago though.

Seriously hth, and don't get stumbled. Do what works.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Gary Nabhan is staying here this week and he said he thinks he has found the original strain of corn somewhere in central or south america and he's going to bring me some seeds. I'll hold back a couple for you. I know corn is not embraced by paleo, but my absolute weakness is corn tortillas and if I am going to continue to have them on occasion, I'd feel better making them from the mother of all heritage corn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization#Process

 

[cosjobs]

Gary Nabhan is staying here this week and he said he thinks he has found the original strain of corn somewhere in central or south america and he's going to bring me some seeds. I'll hold back a couple for you. I know corn is not embraced by paleo, but my absolute weakness is corn tortillas and if I am going to continue to have them on occasion, I'd feel better making them from the mother of all heritage corn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization#Process

If you are telling me that no matter what strain of corn it needs to be treated with lye, I agree.

 

[Sabertooth]

I did a full blown potato diet the week.

Interesting, I haven't seen that website before. I tend to agree that potatoes aren't bad but it's hard to take that guy too seriously when it's by "Chris Voigt, Executive Director, Washington State Potato Commission". Not saying that his website is incorrect, it just would typically lead people to think there are ulterior motives or biases.

The potato-diet fad within the paleo community really started with the thread on Mark Sisson's site, which grew out of a very long exchange on Ray Cronise's blog. The Chris Voigt experiment is some independent confirmation of the effects, but it wasn't the impetus for its catching on as a paleo hack. After I saw the thread at marksdailyapple, I tried the potato diet myself for one week and lost about 8-9 pounds while feeling very full the whole time. I was trying to eat more than my appetite dictated, but potatoes are extremely filling. Anyway, after that I went back to the original source of the whole thing, the long and disorganized comments in Ray Cronise's blog, and organized Cronise's statements into a little FAQ. The following is based only on Cronise's statements; it doesn't incorporate any of the modifications or enhancements or whatever from the ultra-long thread at marksdailyapple, or from Voigt or Guyenet, or from any other source.

>Potato-Diet FAQ

What's the basic protocol?

You will lose weight fast by eliminating meat, butter, oils and any sugar from your diet, and sticking to only brown rice and/or potatoes for 14 days. Either white potatoes or sweet potatoes are fine.

You can eat as much as you want, but don't eat just because it's "time." Eat only when you're hungry, and stop eating when you're no longer hungry. Skipping meals is okay.

Drink lots of water. No liquid calories of any kind.

Can I add flavorings?

Yes, but any flavorings should be low in calories and devoid of fat. Salt, pepper, herbs, and spices are fine. (Rosemary and chives go well with potatoes.) Soy sauce, vinegar, and hot sauce are fine.

Doesn't this work merely by creating a calorie deficit?

All diets work by creating a calorie deficit. This one is no different other than complete satiation and paradoxical control of blood sugar with a high-glycemic food.

Let's say your resting metabolism rate is 2200 calories. A 153-gram potato has 110 calories. That means you can eat 20 potatoes a day to break even. That's a lot of freaking potatoes. One cup of cooked rice is 160 calories. That's 13 cups of rice.

Starches are enormously satiating and way more satiating than simple sugars or fats. You might eat 20 potatoes or 13 cups of rice for a day. Maybe two or three days, but I'm betting you won't keep it up.

If you eat to satiety, you may end up eating only 3-4 potatoes a day or about the same amount of rice. The result is that you'll feel satiated while running a large calorie deficit.

What's so special about potatoes?

Potatoes are starches with complete protein, vitamin C, and a host of other micronutrients. You're basically flooding the body with glucose, while having just enough protein to remain nitrogen-positive. You're also getting a decent amount of vitamins and minerals while avoiding simple sugars.

A large serving of starch when you are glycogen replete often results in diet-induced thermogenesis. While a reduced-calorie diet will often suppress metabolism (inducing "starvation mode"), the excess of starch on this diet actually ramps up metabolism to burn more calories.

Flooding the body with glucose, in the absence of simple sugars or fat, is a simple trick to rack up a huge calorie deficit while remaining very satiated.

Won't a potato-only diet result in nutrient deficiencies? What about fat-soluble vitamins?

The idea that any nutrient is just days or hours away from being deficient is a myth. Besides, what makes you think metabolizing the fat on your body is any worse than digesting the fat in a salmon or pig?

Can I add non-starchy vegetables, like spinach?

Greens and other non-starchy vegetables are fine, but for purposes of the experiment, why not just eat potatoes? It's simpler and gives you less to worry about.

How about other forms of starch, like beans, peas, or lentils?

Any starch will work, but go for something that has a good amino acid profile. That's why potatoes are ideal.

Why can't I add fat? Potatoes taste a lot better with butter.

Adding fat would defeat the whole purpose of doing this. The point is not to give into cravings — especially for fat. Also, since you are flooding your body with glucose, any fat you consume will not be burned. It will go directly to adipose tissue.

Can this work as a long-term diet strategy?

It's not recommended. Potatoes are somewhat nutrient-dense, but they do not contain every nutrient your body needs. After 14 days, you should transition to a more complete diet.

Mind = Blown

 

[Penguin]

Maurile, what type of potato(s) did you eat while trying this and how did you prepare them?

 

[Sabertooth]

Has anyone tried Ferriss' 4 Hour Body program?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Maurile, what type of potato(s) did you eat while trying this and how did you prepare them?

I may have boiled some new potatoes once, but for the most part, I almost always used russet potatoes or sweet potatoes and baked them. The sweet potatoes, I usually had with cinnamon. The russet potatoes, I sometimes did with salt and vinegar, sometimes with hot sauce, sometimes with thyme, oregano, and sumac, and sometimes with sauerkraut. Oh, and sometimes with chicken broth. (I ate the skin about half the time.)

 

[shader]

Been doing primal/paleo for 2.5 weeks now. Only lost about 7 pounds and I'm highly annoyed. When I did this a year ago, I had already lost about 14 pounds at this point. Not sure where my fault lies. The only thing I can think of is the heavy cream I use for coffee.

I've decided to ditch the diet drinks, as any primal follower will do. However, I can't drink black coffee. Heavy cream has no sugar in it, and so I thought this was a smart move. I never even realized the number of calories in this stuff.

I drank 3,000 calories of heavy cream in a week and a half. Perhaps this didn't do as much damage as I thought it did. But it still annoys me.

I've now got two main problems

1. What is the root cause of weight loss. Calorie restriction or "bad-food" restriction.

2. The 80/20 thing, the 'cheat day' thing. The bottom line is that there are times when I get extremely moody on this diet and just want a bowl of ice cream, some chocolate, a cookie or a piece of pizza. Of course that is perhaps the bottom line of why I'm dieting in the first place. I want to schedule cheating, but is that really smart?

 

[Reginald Cornsilks]

Been doing primal/paleo for 2.5 weeks now. Only lost about 7 pounds and I'm highly annoyed. When I did this a year ago, I had already lost about 14 pounds at this point. Not sure where my fault lies. The only thing I can think of is the heavy cream I use for coffee.

I've decided to ditch the diet drinks, as any primal follower will do. However, I can't drink black coffee. Heavy cream has no sugar in it, and so I thought this was a smart move. I never even realized the number of calories in this stuff.

I drank 3,000 calories of heavy cream in a week and a half. Perhaps this didn't do as much damage as I thought it did. But it still annoys me.

I've now got two main problems

1. What is the root cause of weight loss. Calorie restriction or "bad-food" restriction.

2. The 80/20 thing, the 'cheat day' thing. The bottom line is that there are times when I get extremely moody on this diet and just want a bowl of ice cream, some chocolate, a cookie or a piece of pizza. Of course that is perhaps the bottom line of why I'm dieting in the first place. I want to schedule cheating, but is that really smart?

To me - I either have to go cold turkey or nothing.

I've told my story re the Low Carb/Paleo style. I went 9 months on it with ZERO cheat days, ZERO cheat meals. I was jonesing for some Pistachio Ice Cream one day and it spiked my blood sugar and caused insatiable cravings and put me back on the road to ruin permanently.

Once you get 1-2 months into it, those craving will become extremely rare and you will forget what most of that crap tasted like,.

 

[culdeus]

I drank 3,000 calories of heavy cream in a week and a half. Perhaps this didn't do as much damage as I thought it did. But it still annoys me.

That is a 1/2 gallon of heavy cream. Jesus

 

[culdeus]

Been doing primal/paleo for 2.5 weeks now. Only lost about 7 pounds and I'm highly annoyed. When I did this a year ago, I had already lost about 14 pounds at this point. Not sure where my fault lies. The only thing I can think of is the heavy cream I use for coffee.

I've decided to ditch the diet drinks, as any primal follower will do. However, I can't drink black coffee. Heavy cream has no sugar in it, and so I thought this was a smart move. I never even realized the number of calories in this stuff.

I drank 3,000 calories of heavy cream in a week and a half. Perhaps this didn't do as much damage as I thought it did. But it still annoys me.

I've now got two main problems

1. What is the root cause of weight loss. Calorie restriction or "bad-food" restriction.

2. The 80/20 thing, the 'cheat day' thing. The bottom line is that there are times when I get extremely moody on this diet and just want a bowl of ice cream, some chocolate, a cookie or a piece of pizza. Of course that is perhaps the bottom line of why I'm dieting in the first place. I want to schedule cheating, but is that really smart?

1) Calorie restriction will give you weight loss. A carb restricted (and lets not get around it this is a carb restricted diet) will help cut fat faster than muscle by messing with the macros.

2) This 80/20 thing is not well defined to me. I don't think of it as cheat days but more of 80% of the meals need to follow the program, but any weight loss program where you are trying to lose 50+ will need refeeds or you will hit plateau levels. Refeeds don't have to be off the program. They can be anything but should be targeted when you hit plateau levels. (plateau/refeed is not part of this diet and should be discussed elsewhere)

0.02

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

1. What is the root cause of weight loss. Calorie restriction or "bad-food" restriction.

A calorie deficit, but that's closely related to avoiding "bad" foods. In general, losing bodyfat makes you hungrier, while gaining bodyfat reduces your appetite. (One mechanism is through the hormone leptin.) The overall process keeps people's weight fairly stable, for the most part. But the process can be broken — tricked — by certain foods. Foods that are highly palatable, high in calories, and low in fiber and water content seem to affect the process, magnifying the first effect ("losing bodyfant makes you hungrier") and dulling the second effect ("gaining bodyfat reduces your appetite"). Add in the fact that micronutrient deficiencies can cause cravings, and you can see why most highly processed (manufactured) foods can lead to weight gain. Most of the vitamins and minerals, fiber, and water are generally removed during processing, while salt, fat, and sugar are added to increase palatability and calorie-density.

In order to lose weight, you'll ultimately want to reduce your caloric intake. But there's a hard way to do that and an easier way. The hard way is to use will power to starve yourself. The easier way is to blunt your appetite. This generally requires "bad-food restriction," as you put it.

 

[shader]

I drank 3,000 calories of heavy cream in a week and a half. Perhaps this didn't do as much damage as I thought it did. But it still annoys me.

That is a 1/2 gallon of heavy cream. Jesus

Yes that sounds bad. It doesn't seem so bad over the course of a week in coffee. No sugar though!

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Good read here: Melissa McEwen is Breaking Up with Paleo.

 

[-jb-]

Good read here: Melissa McEwen is Breaking Up with Paleo.

Cliffs Notes?

 

[Sabertooth]

Good read here: Melissa McEwen is Breaking Up with Paleo.

Cliffs Notes?

Halfway decent looking chick has a tab on her site called Meatshare. HTH.

 

[munga30]

Good read here: Melissa McEwen is Breaking Up with Paleo.

Cliffs Notes?

"I don’t have a diet anymore. I largely eat what I want, but thankfully what I want is largely from-scratch food made with local plants, pastured animal products, and wild seafood."

 

[SacramentoBob]

Good read here: Melissa McEwen is Breaking Up with Paleo.

Cliffs Notes?

"I don’t have a diet anymore. I largely eat what I want, but thankfully what I want is largely from-scratch food made with local plants, pastured animal products, and wild seafood."

So she eats what she wants, as long as its mostly paleo.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Good read here: Melissa McEwen is Breaking Up with Paleo.

Cliffs Notes?

"I don’t have a diet anymore. I largely eat what I want, but thankfully what I want is largely from-scratch food made with local plants, pastured animal products, and wild seafood."

So she eats what she wants, as long as its mostly paleo.

She claims that she's not even doing "80% paleo". She regularly eats grains, including rye (she does think some things are dose dependent). If anything, she seems to be suggesting that she's not eliminating foods and is instead trying to make sure that eats a broad range for proper nutrition.

I have to admit that I've always found McEwan just a bit tedious as a blogger.

 

[Chaka]

Good read here: Melissa McEwen is Breaking Up with Paleo.

Cliffs Notes?

"I don’t have a diet anymore. I largely eat what I want, but thankfully what I want is largely from-scratch food made with local plants, pastured animal products, and wild seafood."

So she eats what she wants, as long as its mostly paleo.

She claims that she's not even doing "80% paleo". She regularly eats grains, including rye (she does think some things are dose dependent). If anything, she seems to be suggesting that she's not eliminating foods and is instead trying to make sure that eats a broad range for proper nutrition.

I have to admit that I've always found McEwan just a bit tedious as a blogger.

I don't see where she says she is regularly eating grains. She is definitely eating them (sandwiches, beer) but it doesn't sound like she is breaking from paleo so much as breaking from the paleo community. I don't blame her for not wanting to associate with the quasi-religious aspect (her words) it has taken in many instances.

 

[Chaka]

Good read here: Melissa McEwen is Breaking Up with Paleo.

Cliffs Notes?

"I don’t have a diet anymore. I largely eat what I want, but thankfully what I want is largely from-scratch food made with local plants, pastured animal products, and wild seafood."

So she eats what she wants, as long as its mostly paleo.

Seems like a silly argument. She eats bread, grains, dairy - all sorts of non-paleo stuff. Just because she eats a lot of fruits, vegetables, and pastured meat doesn't mean she's "mostly paleo" it just means that what she eats has some overlap.

If I ate 80% vegetables and 20% McNuggets I wouldn't call it "mostly vegetarian."

I personally never classified dairy as non-paleo although I know some in the community have.

 

[GreatLakesMike]

I'm a simpleton so I'll just break down what I've learned from trial and error.

1.) Dairy doesn't affect my weight but gives me major heartburn. I always blamed red meat for my heartburn issues. I've cut way, way back on my cheese intake and I'm no longer popping generic zantac like breath mints.

2.) Grains and flour = significant weight gain. Pretty easy to give up.

3.) Potatoes don't bother me. In fact, throwing a little butter/olive oil in the pan and cooking some potatoes with peppers and onions not only tastes awesome, but it fills me up and I don't need to eat much the rest of the day. Same with a nice garlic-mashed potatoes mix with a bit of butter.

3.) Fasting is great. I've tried the eat 6 small meals a day shtick and it's horrible. Doesn't work for me. 3 meals a day is plenty and often times too much. I've fasted for up to 30 hours without any problems.

4.) I love berries and they love me. Watermelon, grapes, and Apples seem to work as well. Bananas - no issues other than it was difficult to drop any weight eating 2 or 3 bananas a day.

5.) I'm allergic to peanuts, but I figured this out a few months before delving into the paleo/primal. Same with shrimp.

I've dropped 23 lbs so far and this is with falling off the bandwagon a time or two. I don't read Sisson or anyone as gospel, but the main point I've taken from all the readings is to use a "trial and error" approach and see how your body reacts to different foods. I'm going to give the potato "hack" a go this week and see how it works.

This is by far my favorite thread on this board and I thank all of you smart guys and the information you're relaying to the rest of us. I've lost weight and it's good weight. I feel better than I have in quite some time and it's not a struggle.

ETA: If I'd cut down my beer intake, I'd be down 30.

 

[cosjobs]

It seems to me as if she trying to make a name by self-ostracizing herself. The Paleo community seems supportive and admiring of people who offer empirical, data driven theories, even when they run counter to their own. Jaminet recommends eating a pound of starch every day for optimum health and is one of the most respected authors, despite his contrarian positions.

 

[Slapdash]

Which brings me to a third topic. Referencing your February post about athletes and paleo -- low carb fanaticism and paleo eating need a divorce. Guys like Sisson and Jaminet may have difficulty moving away from what they've written, but that shouldn't stop us (and neither are as bad as some). Carbs as refined sugars and processed grains suck. Carbs in tubers are great. Carrots and potatoes are health foods. They're great for weight loss because they're high on the satiety scale. I did a full blown potato diet the week before Easter, knowing the bunny was bringing baskets this past weekend. I was inspired by Dr. Guyenet. There's plenty of evidence for high tuber and carb consumption pre agricultural revolution. I think it's a missing link in some understandings of paleo principles. Low carb has it's utility, but it's also a fad. Even quinoa is high carb. I'm as light as I've been since high school right now and a week of neolithic tubers (in line with paleo thinking) helped get me there.

I agree. I find avoiding bad carbs much easier when mixing in a moderate amount of carrots, potatoes, and even a little rice.

I can't imagine doing more than a couple of days of just potatoes though.

 

[cosjobs]

Which brings me to a third topic. Referencing your February post about athletes and paleo -- low carb fanaticism and paleo eating need a divorce. Guys like Sisson and Jaminet may have difficulty moving away from what they've written, but that shouldn't stop us (and neither are as bad as some). Carbs as refined sugars and processed grains suck. Carbs in tubers are great. Carrots and potatoes are health foods. They're great for weight loss because they're high on the satiety scale. I did a full blown potato diet the week before Easter, knowing the bunny was bringing baskets this past weekend. I was inspired by Dr. Guyenet. There's plenty of evidence for high tuber and carb consumption pre agricultural revolution. I think it's a missing link in some understandings of paleo principles. Low carb has it's utility, but it's also a fad. Even quinoa is high carb. I'm as light as I've been since high school right now and a week of neolithic tubers (in line with paleo thinking) helped get me there.

I agree. I find avoiding bad carbs much easier when mixing in a moderate amount of carrots, potatoes, and even a little rice.

I can't imagine doing more than a couple of days of just potatoes though.

I could do it, if I had enough butter and sour cream. But even then no more than a few days if it were my only food.

After over a year of loosely following low carb-based paleo, I was doubtful that I could count calories again (which you need to do on the PHD), but I really have not had much problem at all.

Dialing down the unlimited protein and limiting pork and chicken to once a week was a bigger adjustment, but 12 oz of beef or seafood a day is really enough, especially since I now have it with a baked potato or rice. I do about 1700 and keep fat to 40% of daily calories. Once I reach my desired weight, fat will be over 50% and will no longer need to count calories. I also do intermittent fasting every day.So my basic outline is 8-10 oz protein, 1# starch (potato sweet potato, rice or similar), 1# fruit or sweet vegetables like carrots, beets,and all the green vegetables I want and then a few more.

I am currently designing menu plans for a variety of people we will immerse into the PHD. About half need to lose weight and they will follow what I described above, which results in a 3-6 lb/month weight loss. THe other half have physical ailments they are trying to relieve (Lupus, Essential Tremors), and they are thin and will be eating at least 2000 cal/day.

I don't want to get too long-winded, but if anyone wants to discuss further I am more than happy to go into much more detail. Paul Jaminet and I are in constant contact developing and revising the plan we will put in place here, along with the standards and menus. We had a 15 reply email thread last week just on fats in general and rice bran oil in particular (verdict = no). I will be more than happy to handle any micro or macro questions anyone here has about the PHD, either from the knowledge I have gained or asking Paul directly if I am unsure.

 

[Slapdash]

Which brings me to a third topic. Referencing your February post about athletes and paleo -- low carb fanaticism and paleo eating need a divorce. Guys like Sisson and Jaminet may have difficulty moving away from what they've written, but that shouldn't stop us (and neither are as bad as some). Carbs as refined sugars and processed grains suck. Carbs in tubers are great. Carrots and potatoes are health foods. They're great for weight loss because they're high on the satiety scale. I did a full blown potato diet the week before Easter, knowing the bunny was bringing baskets this past weekend. I was inspired by Dr. Guyenet. There's plenty of evidence for high tuber and carb consumption pre agricultural revolution. I think it's a missing link in some understandings of paleo principles. Low carb has it's utility, but it's also a fad. Even quinoa is high carb. I'm as light as I've been since high school right now and a week of neolithic tubers (in line with paleo thinking) helped get me there.

I agree. I find avoiding bad carbs much easier when mixing in a moderate amount of carrots, potatoes, and even a little rice.

I can't imagine doing more than a couple of days of just potatoes though.

I could do it, if I had enough butter and sour cream. But even then no more than a few days if it were my only food.

After over a year of loosely following low carb-based paleo, I was doubtful that I could count calories again (which you need to do on the PHD), but I really have not had much problem at all.

Dialing down the unlimited protein and limiting pork and chicken to once a week was a bigger adjustment, but 12 oz of beef or seafood a day is really enough, especially since I now have it with a baked potato or rice. I do about 1700 and keep fat to 40% of daily calories. Once I reach my desired weight, fat will be over 50% and will no longer need to count calories. I also do intermittent fasting every day.So my basic outline is 8-10 oz protein, 1# starch (potato sweet potato, rice or similar), 1# fruit or sweet vegetables like carrots, beets,and all the green vegetables I want and then a few more.

I am currently designing menu plans for a variety of people we will immerse into the PHD. About half need to lose weight and they will follow what I described above, which results in a 3-6 lb/month weight loss. THe other half have physical ailments they are trying to relieve (Lupus, Essential Tremors), and they are thin and will be eating at least 2000 cal/day.

I don't want to get too long-winded, but if anyone wants to discuss further I am more than happy to go into much more detail. Paul Jaminet and I are in constant contact developing and revising the plan we will put in place here, along with the standards and menus. We had a 15 reply email thread last week just on fats in general and rice bran oil in particular (verdict = no). I will be more than happy to handle any micro or macro questions anyone here has about the PHD, either from the knowledge I have gained or asking Paul directly if I am unsure.

My SO has Lupus. I would be very interested in hearing more detail

 

[cosjobs]

Which brings me to a third topic. Referencing your February post about athletes and paleo -- low carb fanaticism and paleo eating need a divorce. Guys like Sisson and Jaminet may have difficulty moving away from what they've written, but that shouldn't stop us (and neither are as bad as some). Carbs as refined sugars and processed grains suck. Carbs in tubers are great. Carrots and potatoes are health foods. They're great for weight loss because they're high on the satiety scale. I did a full blown potato diet the week before Easter, knowing the bunny was bringing baskets this past weekend. I was inspired by Dr. Guyenet. There's plenty of evidence for high tuber and carb consumption pre agricultural revolution. I think it's a missing link in some understandings of paleo principles. Low carb has it's utility, but it's also a fad. Even quinoa is high carb. I'm as light as I've been since high school right now and a week of neolithic tubers (in line with paleo thinking) helped get me there.

I agree. I find avoiding bad carbs much easier when mixing in a moderate amount of carrots, potatoes, and even a little rice.

I can't imagine doing more than a couple of days of just potatoes though.

I could do it, if I had enough butter and sour cream. But even then no more than a few days if it were my only food.

After over a year of loosely following low carb-based paleo, I was doubtful that I could count calories again (which you need to do on the PHD), but I really have not had much problem at all.

Dialing down the unlimited protein and limiting pork and chicken to once a week was a bigger adjustment, but 12 oz of beef or seafood a day is really enough, especially since I now have it with a baked potato or rice. I do about 1700 and keep fat to 40% of daily calories. Once I reach my desired weight, fat will be over 50% and will no longer need to count calories. I also do intermittent fasting every day.So my basic outline is 8-10 oz protein, 1# starch (potato sweet potato, rice or similar), 1# fruit or sweet vegetables like carrots, beets,and all the green vegetables I want and then a few more.

I am currently designing menu plans for a variety of people we will immerse into the PHD. About half need to lose weight and they will follow what I described above, which results in a 3-6 lb/month weight loss. THe other half have physical ailments they are trying to relieve (Lupus, Essential Tremors), and they are thin and will be eating at least 2000 cal/day.

I don't want to get too long-winded, but if anyone wants to discuss further I am more than happy to go into much more detail. Paul Jaminet and I are in constant contact developing and revising the plan we will put in place here, along with the standards and menus. We had a 15 reply email thread last week just on fats in general and rice bran oil in particular (verdict = no). I will be more than happy to handle any micro or macro questions anyone here has about the PHD, either from the knowledge I have gained or asking Paul directly if I am unsure.

My SO has Lupus. I would be very interested in hearing more detail

In a nutshell, it is our belief that many ailments, especially immune system and neurological disorders get better or go away when you remove all toxins from your diet and eat the foods that your body is evolved to thrive upon. Paul and his wife spent five years working on and developing the PHD and while I think it is the definitive text, there is still much we have yet to learn and discover. That said, I think there is no better starting point to get healthy. There are many instances of people with debilitating conditions rapidly improving with Paleo or PHD lifestyles. In particular is Dr. Walls, an M.D. at U of Iowa who was confined to a wheelchair with multiple sclerosis and was riding a bike eight miles a day in less than a year on her Paleo style diet. I am not claiming it is a panacea, but its the best starting point I have encountered and the anecdotal success stories are pretty amazing.

 

[Statcruncher]

What is your take on dietary diversity? Assuming that someone eats a meal plan that provides all the vitamins/minerals/macronutrients needed, is it ok to eat the same thing day in day out month after month? For every source I've heard that says that's a key to a sustainable eating plan I see another source that claims it can promote food allergies.

 

[cosjobs]

What is your take on dietary diversity? Assuming that someone eats a meal plan that provides all the vitamins/minerals/macronutrients needed, is it ok to eat the same thing day in day out month after month? For every source I've heard that says that's a key to a sustainable eating plan I see another source that claims it can promote food allergies.

I eat a wide variety of foods and always have. The PHD allows for a ton of variety, so there is no need to be repititous on the foods you eat.

Personally, it seems logical to me that a diversity of foods would be good because you would seem to have a better chance of getting the trace minerals and other thing we may need that we don't even know about yet. This is just my personal take. I do not remember him addressing this specifically and I will mention it next tiem we talk to see if he has specific thoughts. Others here probably know more about this than I. I am just speculating on what seems logical to me.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

What is your take on dietary diversity? Assuming that someone eats a meal plan that provides all the vitamins/minerals/macronutrients needed, is it ok to eat the same thing day in day out month after month? For every source I've heard that says that's a key to a sustainable eating plan I see another source that claims it can promote food allergies.

If it does gradually promote food allergies, you could just wean those foods back into your diet if necessary.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Been doing primal/paleo for 2.5 weeks now. Only lost about 7 pounds and I'm highly annoyed. When I did this a year ago, I had already lost about 14 pounds at this point. Not sure where my fault lies. The only thing I can think of is the heavy cream I use for coffee.

I've decided to ditch the diet drinks, as any primal follower will do. However, I can't drink black coffee. Heavy cream has no sugar in it, and so I thought this was a smart move. I never even realized the number of calories in this stuff.

I drank 3,000 calories of heavy cream in a week and a half. Perhaps this didn't do as much damage as I thought it did. But it still annoys me.

I've now got two main problems

1. What is the root cause of weight loss. Calorie restriction or "bad-food" restriction.

2. The 80/20 thing, the 'cheat day' thing. The bottom line is that there are times when I get extremely moody on this diet and just want a bowl of ice cream, some chocolate, a cookie or a piece of pizza. Of course that is perhaps the bottom line of why I'm dieting in the first place. I want to schedule cheating, but is that really smart?

1. Calorie restriction is most important.

2. The best diet is the one that you can stick to. Sure a person would lose weight faster if they never "cheated" but that hypothetical person never existed. If programming cheats is the lesser of two evils, then certainly program cheats into your diet.