Patriots 2008 off season (1 Viewer)

[nerangers]

Kelley Washington has re-signed with the team after being cut the other day.

Good news but I'm a little surprised by this. He had zero catches this year and I thought he might look elsewhere to get more time at WR. Since the Pats didn't throw to him at all last year Washington must realize that his bread and butter will be special teams. He really stood out in that area and he's got a chance to contribute in that area at a very high level for quite sometime.

I was more suprised to wake up this morning and not see anything about Moss...I was hoping the silence over the last few weeks was just because the Patriots had to officially wait for the 2008 season to begin. I went to sleep last night with visions of Moss catching TDs dancing in my head. I wake up to Kelly Washington! ugggg. LOLWas reading this morning that it looks like Asante will meet with the Eagles today...it is the only trip planned so far.

CB Asante Samuel is scheduled to visit the Eagles on Friday, according to FoxSports.com. It looks like it will be Samuel's only visit, with the sides close to striking a six-year deal that could be worth a maximum of $60 million if Samuel reaches all his incentives. --boston.com

 

[Itchy Amos]

Kelley Washington has re-signed with the team after being cut the other day.

Good news but I'm a little surprised by this. He had zero catches this year and I thought he might look elsewhere to get more time at WR. Since the Pats didn't throw to him at all last year Washington must realize that his bread and butter will be special teams. He really stood out in that area and he's got a chance to contribute in that area at a very high level for quite sometime.

I was more suprised to wake up this morning and not see anything about Moss...I was hoping the silence over the last few weeks was just because the Patriots had to officially wait for the 2008 season to begin. I went to sleep last night with visions of Moss catching TDs dancing in my head. I wake up to Kelly Washington! ugggg. LOLWas reading this morning that it looks like Asante will meet with the Eagles today...it is the only trip planned so far.

CB Asante Samuel is scheduled to visit the Eagles on Friday, according to FoxSports.com. It looks like it will be Samuel's only visit, with the sides close to striking a six-year deal that could be worth a maximum of $60 million if Samuel reaches all his incentives. --boston.com

I thought the same thing. I watched ESPNNEWS for a while earlier today. I was looking to see what Moss signed for, or at least some mention of a Patriots news conference. I was surprised (to put it mildly).

 

[nerangers]

Didn't take Asante too long to find a new home! I am sure this was well in the works prior to midnight! lol

Eagles | Team signs Samuel

Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:42:24 -0800

Updating a previous report, Michael Smith, of ESPN, reports the Philadelphia Eagles signed unrestricted free-agent CB Asante Samuel (Patriots) Friday, Feb. 29, to a six-year deal worth $57 million, with $32 million over the first three years.

Brady Cut!...the other Brady!

The Patriots have announced that they've released tight end Kyle Brady. The 36-year-old, who signed with New England last offseason, is a 13-year NFL veteran.

I still like this guy and wish the Pats had kept him last season...guess the Colts do too!!!

Colts | Team re-signs Hairston

Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:43:16 -0800

The Associated Press reports the Indianapolis Colts re-signed free-agent RB Justise Hairston Friday, Feb. 29. Terms of the deal were not disclosed.

 

[nerangers]

All quiet on the Moss front...

I saw this on KFFL...do you think the Patriots would be interested in Tom again? Not sure how he played last season...

Seahawks | Ashworth released

Fri, 29 Feb 2008 17:19:03 -0800

Clare Farnsworth, of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, reports the Seattle Seahawks have terminated the contract of OL Tom Ashworth. Ashworth was scheduled to make $2 million in the 2008 season.

 

[Pat Patriot]

All quiet on the Moss front...

I saw this on KFFL...do you think the Patriots would be interested in Tom again? Not sure how he played last season...

Seahawks | Ashworth released

Fri, 29 Feb 2008 17:19:03 -0800

Clare Farnsworth, of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, reports the Seattle Seahawks have terminated the contract of OL Tom Ashworth. Ashworth was scheduled to make $2 million in the 2008 season.

I think that question depends on Stephen Neals injury. If Neal is expected to miss time next year, that would make Russ Hochstein the starting guard (for now). Ashworth has proved in the past he was a decent utility guy on the offensive line who can play multiple positions.

 

[nerangers]

Doesn't the Stallworth contract seem manageable even by Patriot standards? 17 M /7 Years, 10 Million guaranteed? Stallworth is only 27 years old, and stayed healthy the whole season? I probably would be thinking differently if Moss was in the fold.

I would think you would have wanted to try and keep this receiving corp intact.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Doesn't the Stallworth contract seem manageable even by Patriot standards? 17 M /7 Years, 10 Million guaranteed? Stallworth is only 27 years old, and stayed healthy the whole season? I probably would be thinking differently if Moss was in the fold.I would think you would have wanted to try and keep this receiving corp intact.

It depends. If Stallworth is "only" a WR3 behind Moss and Welker, you'd think that role could be filled adequately by Gafney / Washington. Which is why the vacuum of real information on Moss status is worrisome. But assuming that happens, NE still needs some major building in the secondary and linebacking corps.

 

[twitch]

Doesn't the Stallworth contract seem manageable even by Patriot standards? 17 M /7 Years, 10 Million guaranteed? Stallworth is only 27 years old, and stayed healthy the whole season? I probably would be thinking differently if Moss was in the fold.I would think you would have wanted to try and keep this receiving corp intact.

No. There will be WRs equally as effective in serving that role for far less money later in FA if need be. Youve gotta keep Chad Jackson in mind. He's over a year removed from the knee injury. And at some point, theyve gotta get that kid on the field and see how good he can be. Its all hinging on Moss right now what direction theyre heading with their receivers. But if they swing the Moss deal, bring back in Gaffney and already have Welker and Jackson, and always potentially Troy Brown or a draft pick, their WRs will be fine. WR should be the least of any NE fan's concerns, imo. Theyve got to sure up the secondary and backers, and it'll take money and picks to do that. The money they didnt spend on Stallworth will be money they can spend on a potential difference maker like Jason Taylor or someone on the defensive side of the ball. I cant stress enough, as much as I liked Stallworth with our boys last season, Brady threw over 50 TDs last season, and Stallworth caught 3 of them. That's a role position that doesnt need significant money to fill.

 

[nerangers]

Doesn't the Stallworth contract seem manageable even by Patriot standards? 17 M /7 Years, 10 Million guaranteed? Stallworth is only 27 years old, and stayed healthy the whole season? I probably would be thinking differently if Moss was in the fold.I would think you would have wanted to try and keep this receiving corp intact.

No. There will be WRs equally as effective in serving that role for far less money later in FA if need be. Youve gotta keep Chad Jackson in mind. He's over a year removed from the knee injury. And at some point, theyve gotta get that kid on the field and see how good he can be. Its all hinging on Moss right now what direction theyre heading with their receivers. But if they swing the Moss deal, bring back in Gaffney and already have Welker and Jackson, and always potentially Troy Brown or a draft pick, their WRs will be fine. WR should be the least of any NE fan's concerns, imo. Theyve got to sure up the secondary and backers, and it'll take money and picks to do that. The money they didnt spend on Stallworth will be money they can spend on a potential difference maker like Jason Taylor or someone on the defensive side of the ball. I cant stress enough, as much as I liked Stallworth with our boys last season, Brady threw over 50 TDs last season, and Stallworth caught 3 of them. That's a role position that doesnt need significant money to fill.

Twitch, I didn't forget about Chad Jackson...I still have hope for him. I know the Pats also resigned Washington. The fact of the matter is that Moss and Gaffney are not signed at the moment and I think this will be the year that Brown retires. I just think if you had the chance to keep this corp of WRs together, you would. Bringing in someone from the outside means getting on the same page with Brady again. I am sure this will all be moot once Moss is signed. Still begs the question of why he was not franchised. Maybe the Patriots are not so sold on him for a big contract. Stallworth's contract seemed very manageable for what you would be getting. At least you knew what you had.

 

[twitch]

Doesn't the Stallworth contract seem manageable even by Patriot standards? 17 M /7 Years, 10 Million guaranteed? Stallworth is only 27 years old, and stayed healthy the whole season? I probably would be thinking differently if Moss was in the fold.I would think you would have wanted to try and keep this receiving corp intact.

No. There will be WRs equally as effective in serving that role for far less money later in FA if need be. Youve gotta keep Chad Jackson in mind. He's over a year removed from the knee injury. And at some point, theyve gotta get that kid on the field and see how good he can be. Its all hinging on Moss right now what direction theyre heading with their receivers. But if they swing the Moss deal, bring back in Gaffney and already have Welker and Jackson, and always potentially Troy Brown or a draft pick, their WRs will be fine. WR should be the least of any NE fan's concerns, imo. Theyve got to sure up the secondary and backers, and it'll take money and picks to do that. The money they didnt spend on Stallworth will be money they can spend on a potential difference maker like Jason Taylor or someone on the defensive side of the ball. I cant stress enough, as much as I liked Stallworth with our boys last season, Brady threw over 50 TDs last season, and Stallworth caught 3 of them. That's a role position that doesnt need significant money to fill.

Twitch, I didn't forget about Chad Jackson...I still have hope for him. I know the Pats also resigned Washington. The fact of the matter is that Moss and Gaffney are not signed at the moment and I think this will be the year that Brown retires. I just think if you had the chance to keep this corp of WRs together, you would. Bringing in someone from the outside means getting on the same page with Brady again. I am sure this will all be moot once Moss is signed. Still begs the question of why he was not franchised. Maybe the Patriots are not so sold on him for a big contract. Stallworth's contract seemed very manageable for what you would be getting. At least you knew what you had.

Brady going back to back years displaying the chemistry he had with Caldwell and Gaffney, then Moss and co. only show how easily the guy can adapt to new receivers. Would you not agree? Those guys were all in their 1st years with Brady, and he stll took them deep into the playoffs. So, essentially, NE got to about the same point in the season with essentially poor WRs and stellar WRs. 4 or 5 million bucks is alot of loot when youre trying to keep a veteran team together, and Stallworth's role just wasnt worth it, considering as youve said that still have Washington and Jackson. Whatever happens with Moss happens. Theyve won 3 SBs without him, and reached another AFFC game. Ditto for Stallworth. We need to sure up other areas of this team, particularly ILB or OLB depending on what they do with Thomas, and of course CB considering we've lost Samuel and Gay. As far as knowing what we have. We have a QB who elevates other players around him. He's led the league in TDs and yards on seperate occasions without WRs named Moss or Stallworth. The O will be just fine no matter what goes down. That Oline is still as good as any in the league. As long as we're not playing the Giants every week, of course.

 

[David Yudkin]

Doesn't the Stallworth contract seem manageable even by Patriot standards? 17 M /7 Years, 10 Million guaranteed? Stallworth is only 27 years old, and stayed healthy the whole season? I probably would be thinking differently if Moss was in the fold.I would think you would have wanted to try and keep this receiving corp intact.

From what I have seen, the deal Stallworth got is actually $35 M over 7 yaers with $10 million guaranteed (which is twice what you listed). The $17 million number is over the first four seasons. So his average payout over the first four years would be $4.25 million.Up until this year, the Pats had not paid out much more than $1.5 million to any of their receivers before. So I'm guessing that the production they received in 2007 (697/3) for $3.6 million was a lot less than they desired.I'm thinking they decided that they could probably sign cheaper options to get the same level of production (and at the time they had to cut him they were probably thinking he would be a WR4 again).

 

[Boston]

I have no problem letting Stallworth walk. If Moss is there he's not a good fit. If Moss is gone they could use him but I don't think it's too difficult to find someone that can be as productive as he is.

Something I think is missing with regard to the Pats and offensive weapons. Yes, this team has won without big time WRs in the past. Yet, there is one huge thing that has changed since those days...the Pats D is nowhere near the level it was back in that era. Unless something really dramatic happens I find it difficult to believe the Pats can retool their back eight to a level that takes this D from simply being solid to where it can dominate. I really hope I'm wrong but looking at the current landscape it will be a tall task. This is why Moss returning is so important. The O will need to be at an elite level as new bodies are transistioned into the mix on D.

Overall so much hinges on Moss. With him the O is as good as there is in the NFL. They will tweak a few things but they can really concentrate on rebuilding the D. Without him both sides of the ball will have their issues and I don't see them being able to fill all of them thru the draft and bargain shopping.

 

[twitch]

I have no problem letting Stallworth walk. If Moss is there he's not a good fit. If Moss is gone they could use him but I don't think it's too difficult to find someone that can be as productive as he is. Something I think is missing with regard to the Pats and offensive weapons. Yes, this team has won without big time WRs in the past. Yet, there is one huge thing that has changed since those days...the Pats D is nowhere near the level it was back in that era. Unless something really dramatic happens I find it difficult to believe the Pats can retool their back eight to a level that takes this D from simply being solid to where it can dominate. I really hope I'm wrong but looking at the current landscape it will be a tall task. This is why Moss returning is so important. The O will need to be at an elite level as new bodies are transistioned into the mix on D.Overall so much hinges on Moss. With him the O is as good as there is in the NFL. They will tweak a few things but they can really concentrate on rebuilding the D. Without him both sides of the ball will have their issues and I don't see them being able to fill all of them thru the draft and bargain shopping.

I always love your takes, Boston. But I dont see nearly as much hinging on Moss. He's been with the team for one year. One player cant change in one year how an organization thinks. It wont happen. The defense is a little older, but I dont worry about that much because the talent will continue to be brought in. And this team has won SBs with Ds ranked anywhere from 24th to 7th statistically. Both sides of the ball will have issues whether Moss comes back or not. The defensive #s from '06 to '07 really didnt change much, though the #s on O were night and day. The '06 team allowed fewer points, gave up a few more yards. The D has been fairly consistent over the years, and many a player have come and gone. Belichick has just mastered his 3-4 schemes to the point that they can only be so bad, imo. And again, he and Pioli will continue to make adjustments from year to year whether thru FA or the draft to maintain the personnel.Moss' presence probably meant 3 or 4 more regular season wins this season. But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl. If nothing else, last season should have just taught us that no matter how stellar the #s look during the first 16 games, during the last 3, it really is anyone's game. And the more depth a team has, the better. Moss demanding some unheard of amount of money will just take away from that potential depth. Moss is very much the football equivalent of ARod. He's been a regular season wonder. Phenomenal #s. Arguably football's best player over the past 10 years. But in the playoffs, a great player's brilliance can be minimized by defensive schemes that naturally only get better and better the deeper a team gets into the postseason. ARod can be pitched around and frustrated, and he's typically facing the game's best pitchers deep in the playoffs. Moss can be doubled or tripled, facing typically the league's best defenses the closer his teams get to the Superbowl. Each guy is only one player. Typically, its guys like Tino Martinez or Mike Lowell in baseball or Deion Branch or David Tyree in football that end up making the big plays in the end. Or great pitchers or Defenses. Moss has played on prolific Os his entire career. Yet he's now played on a 15-1 team that couldnt reach the Superbowl, an 18-0 team that couldnt win a Superbowl, and another prolific team that lost a conference championship game 41-0 to a relatively 'weak' Superbowl loser. One guy just does not make a team. Its certainly fun to watch. But this team adapts and overcomes with or without the brilliance of one guy. I certainly dont put all the blame for any of those losses on the man, because he's only one player. But that's the point. He's only one player.

 

[David Yudkin]

He's only one player.

NE scored 589 with Moss in 2007.They scored 385 points without him in 2006.All that really changed on offense was the addition of Moss and Welker (and IMO Moss made Welker more than the other way around).I don't think we can pin the Pats not beating the Giants on Moss, but IMO it's pretty obvious the Patriots this year WITH MOSS were a completely different team than they were the year before WITHOUT MOSS.IMO, the Pats without Moss and Samuel (and not knowing any other roster moves heading forward) is a much weaker team than the one they just had in 2007.I'm not saying the sky is falling as there is a lot of time between now and Opening Day and plenty of time to add FAs, draft picks, and make trades.But the current state of the LBs and secondary coupled with a WR corps (as of today) of Welker, Chad Jackson, and Kelley Washington raises quite a few question marks.I'm sure other players will be added somewhere along the line and I still would not give up on Moss being back, but IMO NE has painted themselves into a corner with Moss and not having him back would pose a bit of a problem given the personnel losses they have already sustained this off season.I think many Pats fans would have settled for losing Moss if it meant keeping Asante. But they could lose both Samuel and Moss and there are not a lot of other big free agents left on the market (in fact Moss has to be the biggest chip still unclaimed). There are not great CB, LB, or WR options still out there, so it's not like they can just restock with other big time talent (fromt he open market).Again, the Pats will should be better than they look now come the start of the season, but for right now they certainly are not looking as good in their off season moves as they did last year.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

 

[twitch]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

 

[nerangers]

I know many are thinking one or two players will not make that much of a difference, but when you are talking Moss and Samuel, I would disagree.

It seems the last few years, the Pats are in a retooling mode. The Patriots had some weaknesses already in 2007...they have not been corrected for 2008 yet. I think by not securing your players prior to free agency, you let the market dictate your pricing.

 

[twitch]

I know many are thinking one or two players will not make that much of a difference, but when you are talking Moss and Samuel, I would disagree.

It seems the last few years, the Pats are in a retooling mode. The Patriots had some weaknesses already in 2007...they have not been corrected for 2008 yet. I think by not securing your players prior to free agency, you let the market dictate your pricing.

Every team has weaknesses. Will losing Moss and Samuel hurt? No question. But NE's schedule next year will be the easiest theyve seen in years. And they've NEVER won a Superbowl with one player seemingly so important. Theyve won 5 playoff games the past 3 years. How many other teams do you think would kill for that? Dallas hasnt won a post season game in 12 or 13 years. Dont you think they'd love to retool to the tune of 5 playoff wins in 3 years? And while we'd all love to win the Superbowl every year, winning 2 playoff games 2 of the past 3 years is not exactly retooling. Or you could just make the case that every year every team retools. Because to a degree, they all do. Some teams make desperate choices spending their cap dollars. NE's just not one of those teams. Its why they win playoff games every year. And there's a fine line between winning and losing many of these games. A play or 2 here or there. A catch vs. a drop. A pick vs. a deflection. A pass interference call vs. a no-call. Fine, fine line. When it costs over $20 million to secure TWO of your guys, sometimes you dont have much choice but to let 'em walk. Its a philosophy that's brought a ton of success. Im not about to bail on the braintrust at this point because once again the market's going a little haywire. You lose a Law, you add a Samuel. You lose a Milloy, you add a Wilson or a Harrison. You lose a Johnson, you add a Seau. You lose a McGinest, you add a Thomas. You lose a Smith, you add a Dillon. You lose a Dillon, you add a Maroney. And sometimes you add a little more, sometimes you add a little less. But the sum total still adds up.

I see weaknesses on every team in the NFL. Is San Diego getting better with Rivers recovering from ACL surgery and Gates recovering from foot surgery and Turner and Florence walking? Is Jacksonville getting better adding Troy Williamson and Jerry Porter and losing a mainstay D tackle? Are the Colts getting better if Harrison and Freeney cant return to form after serious injuries? Is Pittsburgh getting better losing one of their better Olinemen? Every year the sky falls for a little while. And every year, we enjoy blue skies in the fall.

 

[Pat Patriot]

I know many are thinking one or two players will not make that much of a difference, but when you are talking Moss and Samuel, I would disagree.

It seems the last few years, the Pats are in a retooling mode. The Patriots had some weaknesses already in 2007...they have not been corrected for 2008 yet. I think by not securing your players prior to free agency, you let the market dictate your pricing.

The Patriots were 18-0 and then lost the Super Bowl. What are your expectations? Are you expecting the perfect team? If the Patriots of 2007 had weaknesses, what does that say about all of the other teams in the NFL? As Twitch said, all teams have weaknesses.

 

[Bossman]

anyone care to summarize the Pats off season so far?

I have...

Lost:

Stallworth WR

A.Samuel CB

R.Colvin LB

Randal Gay CB

Eugene Wilson S

Gained:

?

In Limbo:

R.Moss

I'm sure that I've missed a few.

Please fill in the blanks.

 

[David Yudkin]

As Twitch said, all teams have weaknesses.

Yes . . . all teams have weaknesses.But as we sit today, the Pats have lost (by whatever means) Samuel, Colvin, Gay, Wilson, KBrady, and Stallworth and could seemingly lose Moss as well. They also have Gaffney and Seau unsigned and Neal could miss some of next year as well due to injury.And they've added who exactly at this stage?I can't see how anyone could possible say as of today that the team as constituted is anywhere close to what it was when they won 18 games in a row this year (assuming that those 10 guys are not with the team).I do understand that they will reload from now until the season starts, but they really have not improved their team AT ALL so far and guys have seemingly been leaving left and right with on the surface no great options to replace them.

 

[Pat Patriot]

As Twitch said, all teams have weaknesses.

Yes . . . all teams have weaknesses.But as we sit today, the Pats have lost (by whatever means) Samuel, Colvin, Gay, Wilson, KBrady, and Stallworth and could seemingly lose Moss as well. They also have Gaffney and Seau unsigned and Neal could miss some of next year as well due to injury.And they've added who exactly at this stage?I can't see how anyone could possible say as of today that the team as constituted is anywhere close to what it was when they won 18 games in a row this year (assuming that those 10 guys are not with the team).I do understand that they will reload from now until the season starts, but they really have not improved their team AT ALL so far and guys have seemingly been leaving left and right with on the surface no great options to replace them.

Yudkin, my comment was in reference to NERangers comment that the Pats had weaknesses in 2007. It was not in reference to their current state.This years offseason is night and day to last years. Their is concern.My plan B for them losing Moss was Stallworth who I thought could fill that stretch the defense deep threat role, albeit not nearly as good as Moss. That has gone by the boards. It amazes me that the Patriots havent signed Moss or made an announcement that thanks him for his contributions to last season and says they are moving in a different direction. The Patriots always seem to know what they are willing to pay a player. They have had plenty of time to make a deal. There was so much information during the season that the Patriots and Moss were working on a deal or had the structure of a deal in place. Unless Moss just pulled the rug out from under them, it doesnt make sense.How is there NO information coming out of Foxboro? How can Moss' agent continue in silence? Nothing directly from Moss.I tell you it is getting irritating hearing Shefter and Clayton just make stuff up. Calling Culpepper (who Moss didnt get along with at the end of his tenure with Minnesota) and asking him if he wants to be a package deal is just ridiculous.

 

[twitch]

As Twitch said, all teams have weaknesses.

Yes . . . all teams have weaknesses.But as we sit today, the Pats have lost (by whatever means) Samuel, Colvin, Gay, Wilson, KBrady, and Stallworth and could seemingly lose Moss as well. They also have Gaffney and Seau unsigned and Neal could miss some of next year as well due to injury.And they've added who exactly at this stage?I can't see how anyone could possible say as of today that the team as constituted is anywhere close to what it was when they won 18 games in a row this year (assuming that those 10 guys are not with the team).I do understand that they will reload from now until the season starts, but they really have not improved their team AT ALL so far and guys have seemingly been leaving left and right with on the surface no great options to replace them.

Dave, you know as well as I do, that they are yet to do anything in FA because theyre trying to send the clear signal to Moss that he's their #1 priority. They could have reached out to another player or 2 by now. thankfully, theyre not that desperate, because doing so could lead Moss to feel insulted that theyre signing other players before him. NE is holding strong with his negotiations. Both sides are. But by not making any other moves, theyre leaving the door wide open for Moss and letting him know theyre not making a move until he makes a decision. And in a big way, that sends a strong message about just what he means to their team. But they just cannot allow him to risk the cap health or future of the team by guaranteeing a ridiculous amount of money should something awful happen. But after 2 or 3 days of an offseason, Im not ready to hit the panic button. Youve done a good job of following the story and offering whatever inside scoop you could. But its really on Moss at this point. Only he knows what he's going to do now. But I dont know how much longer NE will be willing to holdout and not make moves. Ive liked their approach so far. but the time will come when they need to spend a little cheddar to start filling holes. As far as the replacements, as I see it, they really have ONE great player they really need to replace - Samuel. Moss is not yet gone. Samuel can be replaced by either Meriweather, a rookie, or an acquired veteran. And Im not sweating that position because Samuel was a nobody himself before he joined the system and evolved in the stud he now is. It will happen again with a different player. Last year they didnt have a ton of picks following their veteran trades. They ended up with 1 pick in the first 3 rounds. Once again, they have alot of picks to work with. This time, I have a feeling theyll utiilize the picks well and get younger thru the draft. 4 picks in the first 3 rounds this season, 2 of which at toward the top end of rounds, again offers alot of flexibility. And I cant wait to see what stud they add with the 7th pick. But there are a ton of solid NFL players available thru either trades, FA or the draft to doubt that this team will fall off very far.

 

[nerangers]

I know many are thinking one or two players will not make that much of a difference, but when you are talking Moss and Samuel, I would disagree.

It seems the last few years, the Pats are in a retooling mode. The Patriots had some weaknesses already in 2007...they have not been corrected for 2008 yet. I think by not securing your players prior to free agency, you let the market dictate your pricing.

The Patriots were 18-0 and then lost the Super Bowl. What are your expectations? Are you expecting the perfect team? If the Patriots of 2007 had weaknesses, what does that say about all of the other teams in the NFL? As Twitch said, all teams have weaknesses.

maybe retooling was the wrong work, and restocking was the more correct word of choice???Yes all teams have weaknesses...I wasn't saying that they didn't. I think because the Patriots were 18-0 it is easier to accept that there were no obvious weaknesses, although the need at LB was growing. I know they are not perfect. All I was stating is that these players needed to be locked down prior to free agency. By not working on your WRs and Secondary, you allow other teams to pull these players away (and now seem to have a bigger weakness at the two areas). I know everyone is of the mindset that the Patriots can stick anyone in, and they will just win. Right now your starting CBs are Ellis Hobbs and Antwain Spann! I know they will go out and fix it like they always do, but sometimes, the right player was already there.

Now if they are trying to send a message to Moss that he is the top priority, the Pats better get it done real soon, because they have some others that should be addresses as well. I know the Patriots are having free-agent cornerback Jason Webster come in on Monday, so maybe more free agents will be visiting soon.

BTW, anyone think Ty Law is back as a New England Patriot...as a band aid fix?

 

[Deadman31]

Look, Im a big Pats fan and obviously we are all concerned about what is going on here, but how many times over the last few years have we seen the Patriots overpay for someone? Just because other teams are giving out ridiculous contracts to marginal players doesn't mean the Pats are gonna crazy. They know the market and they know what they have to do. I am sure they have had a plan in place for just such a situation as this.

 

[phthalatemagic]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

Please explain your terrible post

 

[Bossman]

anyone care to summarize the Pats off season so far?

I have...

Lost:

Stallworth WR

A.Samuel CB

R.Colvin LB

Randal Gay CB

Eugene Wilson S

Gained:

?

In Limbo:

R.Moss

I'm sure that I've missed a few.

Please fill in the blanks.

 

[twitch]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

Please explain your terrible post

Son, youve got endless other threads to hate on the Patriots. Dont step foot in this one unless you actually want to talk football. Your act is an old, tired one. Take that tip and run with it. Please.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Look, Im a big Pats fan and obviously we are all concerned about what is going on here, but how many times over the last few years have we seen the Patriots overpay for someone? Just because other teams are giving out ridiculous contracts to marginal players doesn't mean the Pats are gonna crazy. They know the market and they know what they have to do. I am sure they have had a plan in place for just such a situation as this.

This is my biggest problem with what is going on right now. The Pats usually have a plan and stick to it. I would have expected that the Patriots would have given Moss realistic market offer. Something such as 3 years $30 million. If Moss and his agent said that was close, you hammer the deal out. If they tell you that isnt close to what they had in mind, then you cut him loose and take your next best option. Personally, I think signing Stallworth to a contract similar to what the Browns gave him to be the #1 speed outside guy, signing Gaffney to be the intermediate guy with Welker and Watson to work the underneath and seam routes with Washington and Jackson as backups is a good WR crew. Not a record setting group but a very good group.Now they are in an all of nothing situation. It is pretty imperative that they sign Moss. Many of their other options have dried up.

 

[nerangers]

It sounds like it is all up to Randy Moss...

ANALYSIS - from boston.com

Some thoughts on the Patriots and Randy Moss:

When the deadline for placing the franchise tag on players passed – and the Patriots did not tag Randy Moss – the tone for negotiations was set.

While the Patriots could have restricted Moss’s free-agent movement with the tag, they apparently decided that it was a better approach to play nice. Moss, they likely believed, wasn’t the type of person who would react favorably to having his options limited, especially after agreeing to restructure his deal (and take considerably less pay) in 2007.

With that in mind, the feeling here is that the ongoing “negotiation” between the Patriots and Moss is not contentious.

The Patriots have made an offer to Moss that they obviously feel is a good one.

Moss, on the other hand, obviously isn’t convinced.

So the only way to reach a resolution is for Moss to explore the open market and see if he can find a better deal. If he doesn't, he can come to a better comfort level with what the Patriots are offering.

 

[phthalatemagic]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

Please explain your terrible post

Son, youve got endless other threads to hate on the Patriots. Dont step foot in this one unless you actually want to talk football. Your act is an old, tired one. Take that tip and run with it. Please.

Ohh I do. I'm not doing Patriots trolling anymore. I'm serious. Can you explain what you meant here? TIA

 

[nerangers]

Look, Im a big Pats fan and obviously we are all concerned about what is going on here, but how many times over the last few years have we seen the Patriots overpay for someone? Just because other teams are giving out ridiculous contracts to marginal players doesn't mean the Pats are gonna crazy. They know the market and they know what they have to do. I am sure they have had a plan in place for just such a situation as this.

This is my biggest problem with what is going on right now. The Pats usually have a plan and stick to it. I would have expected that the Patriots would have given Moss realistic market offer. Something such as 3 years $30 million. If Moss and his agent said that was close, you hammer the deal out. If they tell you that isnt close to what they had in mind, then you cut him loose and take your next best option. Personally, I think signing Stallworth to a contract similar to what the Browns gave him to be the #1 speed outside guy, signing Gaffney to be the intermediate guy with Welker and Watson to work the underneath and seam routes with Washington and Jackson as backups is a good WR crew. Not a record setting group but a very good group.Now they are in an all of nothing situation. It is pretty imperative that they sign Moss. Many of their other options have dried up.

Pat, I agree with you on the WRs listed here. I didn't think Stallworth would be in the mix this year, but the rest would be on the roster. This can still happen if the Pats get Moss and Gaffney into the fold.With the loss of Stallworht and the potential loss of Troy Brown, do the Patriots go out and bring in one or two more Free agents, or look to the draft? Also, do you think Gaffney might already have a contract in place, but the Patriots are waiting to get the one done with Moss first? I haven't heard anything about Gaffney since Free Agency started.You had 3/30 Million...I was originally thinking before Free Agency started that 4/32 Million would get it done...now I am not so sure.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

LOLif you think your boys chances are better without moss than you need help

 

[David Yudkin]

Gaffney was talking to the Vikings, so he's at the point of seeing what's out there.

 

[Road Warriors]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

LOLif you think your boys chances are better without moss than you need help

Agreed, to a point. Moss at an over the top number makes it harder to address the back 8 of the D, and might not be the best option. It's not black & white, IMO. Moss back in the fold for a salary/cap hit that can be absorbed without tying the Pats hands makes them better. Moss back for absolute top dollar and crippling their cap for the next year or two, leaving them vulnerable at CB and LB will not make them better.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Patriots expected roster makeup for 2008 as of right now:

QB (3)

Brady

Cassel

Guttierez

RB (4)

Maroney

Morris

Faulk

Evans

WR (4)

Moss

Welker

Washington

Jackson

TE (3)

Watson

Thomas

Spach

OLine (8)

Light

Mankins

Koppen

Hockstein

Kaczur

O'Callaghan

Neal (injured)

Britt

ST (3)

Gostkowski

Hansen

Paxton

DLine (6)

Warren

Wilfork

Seymour

Green

Wright

LeKevin Smith

LB (7)

Bruschi

Thomas

Vrabel

Woods

Izzo

Alexander

Slaughter

DB (5)

Hobbs

Merriweather

Harrison

Sanders

Richardson

Total = 43

Draft picks = At least 4 that you expect to make the team (top 3 rounds) and 4 more. That puts you at 51.

Then you have Junior Seau who is a ????. Other than the draft I think the Pats only have a couple of spots they are looking to fill and I hope Ty Law fills one of those spots.

 

[twitch]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

Please explain your terrible post

Son, youve got endless other threads to hate on the Patriots. Dont step foot in this one unless you actually want to talk football. Your act is an old, tired one. Take that tip and run with it. Please.

Ohh I do. I'm not doing Patriots trolling anymore. I'm serious. Can you explain what you meant here? TIA

I'll make two simple obvious points. One, New England has won 3 rings without Moss. Theyve been contenders every year regardless of who their receivers have been. Two, theyve never won a title with Moss and the "greatest O in the history of football". Again, no rings with Moss. 3 rings without. The math is fairly clear. And even the simplest of simpletons thinking it's 'nuts' shouldnt have a problem with the math. Bottom line. They can win with or without the guy. We'll see what happens. And if you want to be cool and talk some football, drop on in. Love to have you. Love to actually hear what you have to say. But if you wanna provoke with simple-minded quotes like "incorrect" or "terrible post" time and time again, then just feel free to do all the window shopping you want in this particular thread. But please, just dont bother the paying customers.

 

[phthalatemagic]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

Please explain your terrible post

Son, youve got endless other threads to hate on the Patriots. Dont step foot in this one unless you actually want to talk football. Your act is an old, tired one. Take that tip and run with it. Please.

Ohh I do. I'm not doing Patriots trolling anymore. I'm serious. Can you explain what you meant here? TIA

I'll make two simple obvious points. One, New England has won 3 rings without Moss. Theyve been contenders every year regardless of who their receivers have been. Two, theyve never won a title with Moss and the "greatest O in the history of football". Again, no rings with Moss. 3 rings without. The math is fairly clear. And even the simplest of simpletons thinking it's 'nuts' shouldnt have a problem with the math. Bottom line. They can win with or without the guy. We'll see what happens. And if you want to be cool and talk some football, drop on in. Love to have you. Love to actually hear what you have to say. But if you wanna provoke with simple-minded quotes like "incorrect" or "terrible post" time and time again, then just feel free to do all the window shopping you want in this particular thread. But please, just dont bother the paying customers.

You failed to link why you suggested a Chargers fan wouldn't give you good information as to why NE won Superbowls.

 

[twitch]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

Please explain your terrible post

Son, youve got endless other threads to hate on the Patriots. Dont step foot in this one unless you actually want to talk football. Your act is an old, tired one. Take that tip and run with it. Please.

Ohh I do. I'm not doing Patriots trolling anymore. I'm serious. Can you explain what you meant here? TIA

I'll make two simple obvious points. One, New England has won 3 rings without Moss. Theyve been contenders every year regardless of who their receivers have been. Two, theyve never won a title with Moss and the "greatest O in the history of football". Again, no rings with Moss. 3 rings without. The math is fairly clear. And even the simplest of simpletons thinking it's 'nuts' shouldnt have a problem with the math. Bottom line. They can win with or without the guy. We'll see what happens. And if you want to be cool and talk some football, drop on in. Love to have you. Love to actually hear what you have to say. But if you wanna provoke with simple-minded quotes like "incorrect" or "terrible post" time and time again, then just feel free to do all the window shopping you want in this particular thread. But please, just dont bother the paying customers.

You failed to link why you suggested a Chargers fan wouldn't give you good information as to why NE won Superbowls.

"Youre nuts" is 'good information'? Look, the easiest thing to do to a 'hater' is remind him of who is own team is that's been owned by the one he hates on 3 straight occasions. You wanna call someone nuts, be prepared to be insulted yourself. Link up. Now, not to belittle, but this is a Pats thread. Lets go ahead and end this line of discussion. Hopefully youve gotten it by now.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

Please explain your terrible post

Son, youve got endless other threads to hate on the Patriots. Dont step foot in this one unless you actually want to talk football. Your act is an old, tired one. Take that tip and run with it. Please.

Ohh I do. I'm not doing Patriots trolling anymore. I'm serious. Can you explain what you meant here? TIA

I'll make two simple obvious points. One, New England has won 3 rings without Moss. Theyve been contenders every year regardless of who their receivers have been. Two, theyve never won a title with Moss and the "greatest O in the history of football". Again, no rings with Moss. 3 rings without. The math is fairly clear. And even the simplest of simpletons thinking it's 'nuts' shouldnt have a problem with the math. Bottom line. They can win with or without the guy. We'll see what happens. And if you want to be cool and talk some football, drop on in. Love to have you. Love to actually hear what you have to say. But if you wanna provoke with simple-minded quotes like "incorrect" or "terrible post" time and time again, then just feel free to do all the window shopping you want in this particular thread. But please, just dont bother the paying customers.

You failed to link why you suggested a Chargers fan wouldn't give you good information as to why NE won Superbowls.

"Youre nuts" is 'good information'? Look, the easiest thing to do to a 'hater' is remind him of who is own team is that's been owned by the one he hates on 3 straight occasions. You wanna call someone nuts, be prepared to be insulted yourself. Link up. Now, not to belittle, but this is a Pats thread. Lets go ahead and end this line of discussion. Hopefully youve gotten it by now.

OK guy here ya go.The AFC is loaded right now. Alot tougher just to get out of the conference now than it was what four years ago.

SD,Jax,Indy throw in Pitt & Clev

The back 8 of your D is very subpar, your gonna need to score points now lots of them. The Dline is stout, ill give ya that.

I think Branch,Givens,Patten >>>>> welker,gaffney,chad jackson.

I am very interested to see how your team responds to that superbowl performance, not too many dynasties lose superbowls.

You guys are a shoe in to win that division although Buff and NYJ should be better.

To win it all you'll need Moss to beat the elite teams come playoff time

 

[Pat Patriot]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

Please explain your terrible post

Son, youve got endless other threads to hate on the Patriots. Dont step foot in this one unless you actually want to talk football. Your act is an old, tired one. Take that tip and run with it. Please.

Ohh I do. I'm not doing Patriots trolling anymore. I'm serious. Can you explain what you meant here? TIA

I'll make two simple obvious points. One, New England has won 3 rings without Moss. Theyve been contenders every year regardless of who their receivers have been. Two, theyve never won a title with Moss and the "greatest O in the history of football". Again, no rings with Moss. 3 rings without. The math is fairly clear. And even the simplest of simpletons thinking it's 'nuts' shouldnt have a problem with the math. Bottom line. They can win with or without the guy. We'll see what happens. And if you want to be cool and talk some football, drop on in. Love to have you. Love to actually hear what you have to say. But if you wanna provoke with simple-minded quotes like "incorrect" or "terrible post" time and time again, then just feel free to do all the window shopping you want in this particular thread. But please, just dont bother the paying customers.

You failed to link why you suggested a Chargers fan wouldn't give you good information as to why NE won Superbowls.

"Youre nuts" is 'good information'? Look, the easiest thing to do to a 'hater' is remind him of who is own team is that's been owned by the one he hates on 3 straight occasions. You wanna call someone nuts, be prepared to be insulted yourself. Link up. Now, not to belittle, but this is a Pats thread. Lets go ahead and end this line of discussion. Hopefully youve gotten it by now.

OK guy here ya go.The AFC is loaded right now. Alot tougher just to get out of the conference now than it was what four years ago.

SD,Jax,Indy throw in Pitt & Clev

The back 8 of your D is very subpar, your gonna need to score points now lots of them. The Dline is stout, ill give ya that.

I think Branch,Givens,Patten >>>>> welker,gaffney,chad jackson.

I am very interested to see how your team responds to that superbowl performance, not too many dynasties lose superbowls.

You guys are a shoe in to win that division although Buff and NYJ should be better.

To win it all you'll need Moss to beat the elite teams come playoff time

The Pats were 4th in defensive scoring in 2007. Since their back 8 is VERY SUBPAR now, how far to you expect them to drop? 20th? Please tell me.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

The best D is a good O. they ranked well but alot of that stems from huge leads early in the season. making teams one dimensional is what a great O can do.

big loss in the secondary doesnt concern you? an aging LB core? Losing the best WR in the game doesnt concern you?

 

[Road Warriors]

The best D is a good O. they ranked well but alot of that stems from huge leads early in the season. making teams one dimensional is what a great O can do.big loss in the secondary doesnt concern you? an aging LB core? Losing the best WR in the game doesnt concern you?

Losing all those things are a concern. But, I'm not one to panic before we see what the retooling looks like after the draft. If they get Moss back, Gaffney back, sign Law, and hit on a couple of picks in the draft, I'll be less concerned. The Patriots front office has earned my trust by keeping a quality team on the field over the past 8 years, so I'll try to let it work out before I pass judgement.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

The best D is a good O. they ranked well but alot of that stems from huge leads early in the season. making teams one dimensional is what a great O can do.big loss in the secondary doesnt concern you? an aging LB core? Losing the best WR in the game doesnt concern you?

Losing all those things are a concern. But, I'm not one to panic before we see what the retooling looks like after the draft. If they get Moss back, Gaffney back, sign Law, and hit on a couple of picks in the draft, I'll be less concerned. The Patriots front office has earned my trust by keeping a quality team on the field over the past 8 years, so I'll try to let it work out before I pass judgement.

the whole point is that the pats odds are better with moss on the teamagree or no?

 

[Road Warriors]

The best D is a good O. they ranked well but alot of that stems from huge leads early in the season. making teams one dimensional is what a great O can do.big loss in the secondary doesnt concern you? an aging LB core? Losing the best WR in the game doesnt concern you?

Losing all those things are a concern. But, I'm not one to panic before we see what the retooling looks like after the draft. If they get Moss back, Gaffney back, sign Law, and hit on a couple of picks in the draft, I'll be less concerned. The Patriots front office has earned my trust by keeping a quality team on the field over the past 8 years, so I'll try to let it work out before I pass judgement.

the whole point is that the pats odds are better with moss on the teamagree or no?

Agree up to a certain $ figure. They can't overspend on Moss such that they can't address other areas. They've lost some contributors this offseason, some larger than others, but contributors nonetheless. They'll need to have enough cap room to address those reasonably well.So I set a ceiling on Moss at around 10m / year, and try to have a somewhat cap friendly 1st year. But in general, Yes, I agree they're a better team with Moss than without.

 

[Pat Patriot]

The best D is a good O. they ranked well but alot of that stems from huge leads early in the season. making teams one dimensional is what a great O can do.big loss in the secondary doesnt concern you? an aging LB core? Losing the best WR in the game doesnt concern you?

If that is the only thing that held this D together then how do you explain the playoff success? 20 pts, 12 pts, 17 pts.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

The AFC is loaded right now. Alot tougher just to get out of the conference now than it was what four years ago.SD,Jax,Indy throw in Pitt & Clev

revisionist history. 4 years ago IndY was scoring points like crazy, Pittsburgh was 15-1, Denver was dangerous and San Diego was 12-4.

 

[phthalatemagic]

But I certainly dont think his absence next year will mean we have any less chance of winning the Superbowl.

your nuts

Right. Let me ask the Chargers fan about why NE's won its Superbowls over the years. That's the answer I'll be looking for.

Please explain your terrible post

Son, youve got endless other threads to hate on the Patriots. Dont step foot in this one unless you actually want to talk football. Your act is an old, tired one. Take that tip and run with it. Please.

Ohh I do. I'm not doing Patriots trolling anymore. I'm serious. Can you explain what you meant here? TIA

I'll make two simple obvious points. One, New England has won 3 rings without Moss. Theyve been contenders every year regardless of who their receivers have been. Two, theyve never won a title with Moss and the "greatest O in the history of football". Again, no rings with Moss. 3 rings without. The math is fairly clear. And even the simplest of simpletons thinking it's 'nuts' shouldnt have a problem with the math. Bottom line. They can win with or without the guy. We'll see what happens. And if you want to be cool and talk some football, drop on in. Love to have you. Love to actually hear what you have to say. But if you wanna provoke with simple-minded quotes like "incorrect" or "terrible post" time and time again, then just feel free to do all the window shopping you want in this particular thread. But please, just dont bother the paying customers.

You failed to link why you suggested a Chargers fan wouldn't give you good information as to why NE won Superbowls.

"Youre nuts" is 'good information'? Look, the easiest thing to do to a 'hater' is remind him of who is own team is that's been owned by the one he hates on 3 straight occasions. You wanna call someone nuts, be prepared to be insulted yourself. Link up. Now, not to belittle, but this is a Pats thread. Lets go ahead and end this line of discussion. Hopefully youve gotten it by now.

I didn't think you could explain that statement with any sort of coherence.

 

[phthalatemagic]

The Pats were 4th in defensive scoring in 2007. Since their back 8 is VERY SUBPAR now, how far to you expect them to drop? 20th? Please tell me.

I'd be interested in seeing what their defensive statistics were with and without Colvin last year.

 

[Pat Patriot]

The Pats were 4th in defensive scoring in 2007. Since their back 8 is VERY SUBPAR now, how far to you expect them to drop? 20th? Please tell me.

I'd be interested in seeing what their defensive statistics were with and without Colvin last year.

You saw what they did in the playoffs without Colvin. They gave up an average of 16 pts per game. Almost exactly what they gave up in the regular season.