Patriots being investigated after Colts game (3 Viewers)

[JIslander]

What about the make of the ball "sack" ? Has that been brought up? I mean if its mesh, that would induce quicker cooling. If canvas-like, heat would be retained better. Perhaps the video will show evidence of how the sacks were hanging too which could be quite telling.

Are you proposing shrinkage as a possible culprit?

At least we know that with 100%

 

[MG345]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them with, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

it's not, but it's not a necessary leap to make. Why not just assume they were inflated to 13.5 psi at room temp?

The colts-cold-ball theory is basically they were filled to 13.5 psi in the cold, rushed and checked indoors at 13.5 psi, and then they would remain at 13.5 psi throughout the game.

Because its totally reasonable that the away team had their balls sitting outside, and its totally plausible that knowing they were going to challenge the Patriots balls they topped off their own balls before submitting them to the refs.

The balls could have been set to ANY legal pressure outside and would have read about that same pressure at halftime. Its going to take longer for balls to warm up sitting piled in a bag in the refs room than to cool down getting wet and tossed around outside. Would you stipulate that in half an hour a 10dF rise in temperature would be reasonable? I'd say thats even generous, but in that case you would expect a rise of .5psi. So if the ball was set at 13 it would read 13.5 after half an hour inside.

Link? Why is it ok to assume what happened on the Colts side, but Pats fans want to crucify people for assuming what happened on the Pats side?

Its not ok to assume anything. Thats the point, and why everybody gets bent out of shape when the 9000th person starts screaming about the Colts balls. We dont have any information on them. So anybody can make any assumptions they want. I just pointed out a totally reasonable scenario for how the Colts balls would stay within the legal range. I'll undoubtedly have to do it again in 2 pages.

Ok, so you say it isn't ok to assume anything...yet that is all you and the Patriots fans have been doing as well. Just seems there is a whole lot of what is good for the goose is good for the gander missing here. You set up very specific instances of how the Patriots footballs could come to be under inflated, trusting the reports that buoy your viewpoint. You then turn around and denigrate people for doing the same thing on the Colts side. I get you are playing devil's advocate, but unfortunately for Pats fans that cuts both ways.

 

[Bayhawks]

2-What is taking the NFL so long? I'm not a scientist, and that obviously explains why I needed someone else to explain how this Gay-Lussac's Law applied to this situation. You'd think the NFL would have someone with that knowledge readily available to say "here's your answer." The fact that this is still dragging on makes me wonder if there is something that the NFL has/knows that hasn't been leaked.

The NFL has hired a private firm to look for and review any video, text or e-mail evidence -- potentially from multiple teams.

That alone should give the Sugary Lovers enough to pause IMO.

I know this, but why? If the science is as clear-cut as it now looks to me, why would they need to hire a private firm? Again, I have to imagine that they have someone in the NFL smarter than me with regards to these kinds of scientific questions. So, does that hint/suggest that there is something we don't know?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

2-What is taking the NFL so long? I'm not a scientist, and that obviously explains why I needed someone else to explain how this Gay-Lussac's Law applied to this situation. You'd think the NFL would have someone with that knowledge readily available to say "here's your answer." The fact that this is still dragging on makes me wonder if there is something that the NFL has/knows that hasn't been leaked.

The NFL has hired a private firm to look for and review any video, text or e-mail evidence -- potentially from multiple teams.

That alone should give the Sugary Lovers enough to pause IMO.

I know this, but why? If the science is as clear-cut as it now looks to me, why would they need to hire a private firm? Again, I have to imagine that they have someone in the NFL smarter than me with regards to these kinds of scientific questions. So, does that hint/suggest that there is something we don't know?

There is no "science" here yet. Just tons of speculation. (ETA: mine included)

 

[the moops]

Any football inflated to 12.5 PSI would be underinflated after one half of a game played in 50 degree weather. Any football belonging to any team

 

[parrot]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

Not to mention, there are far colder games played in the NFL every season. Surely this problem would have come up before now if weather was the culprit.

Unless *shock* a couple pounds of pressure is not a big deal, and probably not noticeable unless you are looking for it.

Just as a point of reference, a basketball typically has 7.5 - 8.5 psi.

Then an 8psi basketball dropping from 75 to 50d would end up at 7psi. I dont think anyone would notice a 1psi drop unless they were specifically expecting it and A/Bing a fully inflated ball.

I don't know if this is relevant, but it is kind of interesting; When the NBA introduced synthetic balls in 06, players complained that they didn't bounce like the old leather balls. Cuban contacted a physics department to look into it. They found that the balls bounced 5-8% less. To remedy that 5-8% difference, the ball pressure had to be increased to 14.5 psi.

http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2006/11/physicists-reveal-fundamental-flaws-in.html

 

[Flying Elvis]

2-What is taking the NFL so long? I'm not a scientist, and that obviously explains why I needed someone else to explain how this Gay-Lussac's Law applied to this situation. You'd think the NFL would have someone with that knowledge readily available to say "here's your answer." The fact that this is still dragging on makes me wonder if there is something that the NFL has/knows that hasn't been leaked.

The NFL has hired a private firm to look for and review any video, text or e-mail evidence -- potentially from multiple teams.

That alone should give the Sugary Lovers enough to pause IMO.

I know this, but why? If the science is as clear-cut as it now looks to me, why would they need to hire a private firm? Again, I have to imagine that they have someone in the NFL smarter than me with regards to these kinds of scientific questions. So, does that hint/suggest that there is something we don't know?

They may have hired the private firm b/c they have something and want it verified. They may also have hired said firm to save face b/c this whole situation got away from them entirely. Again. We'll find out. Or, more likely, we won't.

 

[Bad_Mo]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

People are probably missing your points because they are focusing on effected v. affected. I hate grammar cops.

weird, I hate them too. Just as much as I hate ##### bags and you proved to be both. Congrats.

Whoah...whoah, there sparky. No need to get defensive. Please elaborate some more on your days as a QB, and your preference to ball psi especially in the Winter. And, then please let us know what instrument you played at band camp.

 

[MG345]

2-What is taking the NFL so long? I'm not a scientist, and that obviously explains why I needed someone else to explain how this Gay-Lussac's Law applied to this situation. You'd think the NFL would have someone with that knowledge readily available to say "here's your answer." The fact that this is still dragging on makes me wonder if there is something that the NFL has/knows that hasn't been leaked.

The NFL has hired a private firm to look for and review any video, text or e-mail evidence -- potentially from multiple teams.

That alone should give the Sugary Lovers enough to pause IMO.

I know this, but why? If the science is as clear-cut as it now looks to me, why would they need to hire a private firm? Again, I have to imagine that they have someone in the NFL smarter than me with regards to these kinds of scientific questions. So, does that hint/suggest that there is something we don't know?

Because clear cut science in a controlled environment doesn't take into account many other variables. Without knowing chain of custody, or the SOP of the refs, ball boys, and teams personnel that are specifically in contact with the balls, there is no way of knowing exactly which variables are important to the "experiments" that are being done around the internet.

 

[mbuehner]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them with, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

it's not, but it's not a necessary leap to make. Why not just assume they were inflated to 13.5 psi at room temp?

The colts-cold-ball theory is basically they were filled to 13.5 psi in the cold, rushed and checked indoors at 13.5 psi, and then they would remain at 13.5 psi throughout the game.

Because its totally reasonable that the away team had their balls sitting outside, and its totally plausible that knowing they were going to challenge the Patriots balls they topped off their own balls before submitting them to the refs.

The balls could have been set to ANY legal pressure outside and would have read about that same pressure at halftime. Its going to take longer for balls to warm up sitting piled in a bag in the refs room than to cool down getting wet and tossed around outside. Would you stipulate that in half an hour a 10dF rise in temperature would be reasonable? I'd say thats even generous, but in that case you would expect a rise of .5psi. So if the ball was set at 13 it would read 13.5 after half an hour inside.

Link? Why is it ok to assume what happened on the Colts side, but Pats fans want to crucify people for assuming what happened on the Pats side?

Its not ok to assume anything. Thats the point, and why everybody gets bent out of shape when the 9000th person starts screaming about the Colts balls. We dont have any information on them. So anybody can make any assumptions they want. I just pointed out a totally reasonable scenario for how the Colts balls would stay within the legal range. I'll undoubtedly have to do it again in 2 pages.

Ok, so you say it isn't ok to assume anything...yet that is all you and the Patriots fans have been doing as well. Just seems there is a whole lot of what is good for the goose is good for the gander missing here. You set up very specific instances of how the Patriots footballs could come to be under inflated, trusting the reports that buoy your viewpoint. You then turn around and denigrate people for doing the same thing on the Colts side. I get you are playing devil's advocate, but unfortunately for Pats fans that cuts both ways.

Well, you understand the burden of proof is on the accusers right?

 

[mbuehner]

2-What is taking the NFL so long? I'm not a scientist, and that obviously explains why I needed someone else to explain how this Gay-Lussac's Law applied to this situation. You'd think the NFL would have someone with that knowledge readily available to say "here's your answer." The fact that this is still dragging on makes me wonder if there is something that the NFL has/knows that hasn't been leaked.

The NFL has hired a private firm to look for and review any video, text or e-mail evidence -- potentially from multiple teams.

That alone should give the Sugary Lovers enough to pause IMO.

I know this, but why? If the science is as clear-cut as it now looks to me, why would they need to hire a private firm? Again, I have to imagine that they have someone in the NFL smarter than me with regards to these kinds of scientific questions. So, does that hint/suggest that there is something we don't know?

There is no "science" here yet. Just tons of speculation. (ETA: mine included)

Its clearcut that a football taken outside into the cold will lose some amount of pressure. Thats a scientific fact.

 

[moleculo]

one LARGE assumption that all of the ideal gas law (Gay-Lussac) analysis hinges on is that the ball internal temp was the same as the temp outdoors. We don't know this for a fact.

One fact I can say with absolute certainty is that when you bring things from a cold environment into a warm environment, their temperature immediately rises. The temperature rise is not linear with respect to time, and depends on a lot of factors, but it will rise. At some time, the internal temp of the ball will reach ambient temp.

anyone calculating the pressure drop and using a temperature of less than 50 dF is making a worst case assumption to demonstrate a maximal pressure drop.

Just pointing this out, if we are now in the business of shooting down assumptions.

 

[Devine Intervention]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

People are probably missing your points because they are focusing on effected v. affected. I hate grammar cops.

weird, I hate them too. Just as much as I hate ##### bags and you proved to be both. Congrats.

Whoah...whoah, there sparky. No need to get defensive. Please elaborate some more on your days as a QB, and your preference to ball psi especially in the Winter. And, then please let us know what instrument you played at band camp.

just giving you my experience. if you want an expert opinion I think mark brunell would be a credible expert on the grip of a football more than just about anyone. I guess you can say hes a mona lisa vito of footballs. he ran a test to see if the 2 lb difference was noticeable and it clearly was. damn, I forgot to capitalize, you probably wont comprehend any of this

and I never said I played qb I was talking about playing catch with friends. but youre doing a great job keeping up with being a tool.

 

[moleculo]

http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html

Is there any way this can be stickied or pinned?

 

[Bayhawks]

2-What is taking the NFL so long? I'm not a scientist, and that obviously explains why I needed someone else to explain how this Gay-Lussac's Law applied to this situation. You'd think the NFL would have someone with that knowledge readily available to say "here's your answer." The fact that this is still dragging on makes me wonder if there is something that the NFL has/knows that hasn't been leaked.

The NFL has hired a private firm to look for and review any video, text or e-mail evidence -- potentially from multiple teams.

That alone should give the Sugary Lovers enough to pause IMO.

I know this, but why? If the science is as clear-cut as it now looks to me, why would they need to hire a private firm? Again, I have to imagine that they have someone in the NFL smarter than me with regards to these kinds of scientific questions. So, does that hint/suggest that there is something we don't know?

There is no "science" here yet. Just tons of speculation. (ETA: mine included)

Its clearcut that a football taken outside into the cold will lose some amount of pressure. Thats a scientific fact.

Maybe the speculation he's referring to is mine: I posted that I'd reached my conclusion based on the assumption that the Pats filled their footballs indoors (in a 70 degree room). While that's reasonable speculation, (as far as I know) it hasn't been reported as a "FACT" yet. I also assumed that the Colt's balls were filled outdoors and/or to the upper threshold of 13.5 PSI. Again, as far as I know, these things haven't been reported as "FACTS."

IF the Pats inflated their footballs outdoors, or in a room colder than 70 degrees, the science that I based my conclusion on would be faulty. If the Colts inflated their footballs in the same room as the Pats, and/or didn't inflate them to 13.5 PSI, the conclusions I drew might not be as accurate, either.

So, he's right in how he answered my question: because the "science" from which I drew my conclusion is based on some (probable) assumptions, it's not truly a "scientific" conclusion (yet).

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

On Tuesday’s PFT Live on NBC Sports Radio, for example, I inserted a needle for a few seconds into a ball that had been inflated to 13.5 PSI. A loud hiss emerged, and when the needle was removed it was easier to squeeze the ball. It became clear to me then that, if someone wanted to deflate 10-12 balls in 90 seconds, it would indeed be possible.

Gersh ####zman of the New York Daily News performed a more organized test, taking 12 balls that had been inflated to 13 PSI and removed two PSI in a total of 40 seconds. Adding in the time necessary to open the bag and to access the balls and to enter and exit the bathroom, the exercise took 77 seconds.

####zman isn’t the only one who has done it. One highly-placed official with an NFL team “took the top off” a dozen balls in a mere 56 seconds.

I love this story more than any other.

 

[mbuehner]

one LARGE assumption that all of the ideal gas law (Gay-Lussac) analysis hinges on is that the ball internal temp was the same as the temp outdoors. We don't know this for a fact.

One fact I can say with absolute certainty is that when you bring things from a cold environment into a warm environment, their temperature immediately rises. The temperature rise is not linear with respect to time, and depends on a lot of factors, but it will rise. At some time, the internal temp of the ball will reach ambient temp.

anyone calculating the pressure drop and using a temperature of less than 50 dF is making a worst case assumption to demonstrate a maximal pressure drop.

Just pointing this out, if we are now in the business of shooting down assumptions.

This is very true. We also know that an NFL halftime in the playoffs is roughly 30 minutes. Now if for some reason they rushed the balls into the lockerroom at the half, and then dicked around for 29 minutes, that would be the maximum theoretical time the balls would have to come up to room temperature. Of course considering the odd nature of this challenge, it could also be that they measured the balls right away, considering they also allegedly had to measure the colts balls and the backup balls. Plus whatever else they needed to do.

All assuming they didnt simply measure them outside btw. Note that the Pats claimed they had to go inside and fetch the backup balls right before the 3rd Q... which would suggest they measured the balls outside and had to send for the replacements.

 

[parrot]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

People are probably missing your points because they are focusing on effected v. affected. I hate grammar cops.

weird, I hate them too. Just as much as I hate ##### bags and you proved to be both. Congrats.

Whoah...whoah, there sparky. No need to get defensive. Please elaborate some more on your days as a QB, and your preference to ball psi especially in the Winter. And, then please let us know what instrument you played at band camp.

just giving you my experience. if you want an expert opinion I think mark brunell would be a credible expert on the grip of a football more than just about anyone. I guess you can say hes a mona lisa vito of footballs. he ran a test to see if the 2 lb difference was noticeable and it clearly was. damn, I forgot to capitalize, you probably wont comprehend any of this

and I never said I played qb I was talking about playing catch with friends. but youre doing a great job keeping up with being a tool.

In dry, warm, studio conditions, with balls of other pressures readily available for comparison.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Being handled by guys allowed to carry 130-degree(?) handwarmers might enter into all this "science" at some point too.

 

[mbuehner]

Being handled by guys allowed to carry 130-degree(?) handwarmers might enter into all this "science" at some point too.

Good point. Those are the kinds of things that are going to cause discrepancies from ball to ball.

 

[shader]

The communication by Reisner appears to show that the N.F.L. is taking seriously the question of whether physics could explain the deflation. Reisner’s call to the Columbia physics department first became known when Brian Metzger, a physicist at Columbia, mentioned it in a Facebook post.

In a bit of physics humor, Metzger then asked in the post whether Brian Greene of Columbia — one of the world’s best-known cosmologists — would “step up to the task.”

Reisner did not immediately respond late Tuesday night to email and voice mail messages requesting comment on his query to the physics department.

William Zajc, another Columbia physicist who was aware of the request by Reisner, said that he was tempted to field the questions because of all the flawed physics discussions he had seen in news media reports.

“I’m amused,” Zajc said of the query. But in the end, he said, “I didn’t do it.”

Zajc said he believed there was little chance that atmospheric effects alone could account for the discrepancies in the football pressure.

“I think it’s more likely than not that they were manipulated,” Zajc said.

key points that you may have overlooked. No one should care what the opinions of any one person are. Opinions aren't science, even if they are made by scientists.

 

[Old Smiley]

On Tuesday’s PFT Live on NBC Sports Radio, for example, I inserted a needle for a few seconds into a ball that had been inflated to 13.5 PSI. A loud hiss emerged, and when the needle was removed it was easier to squeeze the ball. It became clear to me then that, if someone wanted to deflate 10-12 balls in 90 seconds, it would indeed be possible.

Gersh ####zman of the New York Daily News performed a more organized test, taking 12 balls that had been inflated to 13 PSI and removed two PSI in a total of 40 seconds. Adding in the time necessary to open the bag and to access the balls and to enter and exit the bathroom, the exercise took 77 seconds.

####zman isn’t the only one who has done it. One highly-placed official with an NFL team “took the top off” a dozen balls in a mere 56 seconds.

I love this story more than any other.

Okay, now I'm speculating, but as to the discernible difference, how do we know he didn't hiss it down to, like six or seven pounds psi?

 

[TobiasFunke]

http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html

Is there any way this can be stickied or pinned?

Surely after ten days there's a scientist out there who supports the Pats/Belichek explanation who is not based in the Boston area, yes?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

On Tuesday’s PFT Live on NBC Sports Radio, for example, I inserted a needle for a few seconds into a ball that had been inflated to 13.5 PSI. A loud hiss emerged, and when the needle was removed it was easier to squeeze the ball. It became clear to me then that, if someone wanted to deflate 10-12 balls in 90 seconds, it would indeed be possible.

Gersh ####zman of the New York Daily News performed a more organized test, taking 12 balls that had been inflated to 13 PSI and removed two PSI in a total of 40 seconds. Adding in the time necessary to open the bag and to access the balls and to enter and exit the bathroom, the exercise took 77 seconds.

####zman isn’t the only one who has done it. One highly-placed official with an NFL team “took the top off” a dozen balls in a mere 56 seconds.

I love this story more than any other.

Okay, now I'm speculating, but as to the discernible difference, how do we know he didn't hiss it down to, like six or seven pounds psi?

We have no idea.

It's the second part that was more interesting.

 

[Devine Intervention]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

People are probably missing your points because they are focusing on effected v. affected. I hate grammar cops.

weird, I hate them too. Just as much as I hate ##### bags and you proved to be both. Congrats.

Whoah...whoah, there sparky. No need to get defensive. Please elaborate some more on your days as a QB, and your preference to ball psi especially in the Winter. And, then please let us know what instrument you played at band camp.

just giving you my experience. if you want an expert opinion I think mark brunell would be a credible expert on the grip of a football more than just about anyone. I guess you can say hes a mona lisa vito of footballs. he ran a test to see if the 2 lb difference was noticeable and it clearly was. damn, I forgot to capitalize, you probably wont comprehend any of this

and I never said I played qb I was talking about playing catch with friends. but youre doing a great job keeping up with being a tool.

In dry, warm, studio conditions, with balls of other pressures readily available for comparison.

Brunell said that as a QB the football is your life, just like the club is to a golfer. He used the same psi each week for 151 games and said he would easily be able to tell if the ball they gave him was 2 psi below. That is his expert opinion.

If no one noticed the psi then why would Brady set his at 12.5? Why not just in the middle at an easy 13? Unless that .5 is noticeable?

When a football is your career I think you would know the difference. If you adjusted a professional golfers club in the slightest way I bet they would notice. Its the same kind of reasoning.

 

[Old Smiley]

On Tuesday’s PFT Live on NBC Sports Radio, for example, I inserted a needle for a few seconds into a ball that had been inflated to 13.5 PSI. A loud hiss emerged, and when the needle was removed it was easier to squeeze the ball. It became clear to me then that, if someone wanted to deflate 10-12 balls in 90 seconds, it would indeed be possible.

Gersh ####zman of the New York Daily News performed a more organized test, taking 12 balls that had been inflated to 13 PSI and removed two PSI in a total of 40 seconds. Adding in the time necessary to open the bag and to access the balls and to enter and exit the bathroom, the exercise took 77 seconds.

####zman isn’t the only one who has done it. One highly-placed official with an NFL team “took the top off” a dozen balls in a mere 56 seconds.

I love this story more than any other.

Okay, now I'm speculating, but as to the discernible difference, how do we know he didn't hiss it down to, like six or seven pounds psi?

We have no idea.

It's the second part that was more interesting.

Was HE consistently removing a measured amount of air?

 

[shader]

http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html

Is there any way this can be stickied or pinned?

Surely after ten days there's a scientist out there who supports the Pats/Belichek explanation who is not based in the Boston area, yes?

Surely after ten days, there is an experiment done with balls that prove that they don't lose psi when taken from an indoors environment, into an outdoors environment with a lower temperature, yes?

 

[TobiasFunke]

http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html

Is there any way this can be stickied or pinned?

Surely after ten days there's a scientist out there who supports the Pats/Belichek explanation who is not based in the Boston area, yes?

Surely after ten days, there is an experiment done with balls that prove that they don't lose psi when taken from an indoors environment, into an outdoors environment with a lower temperature, yes?

I didn't ask for an experiment, I asked for support. There's plenty of people out there who have criticized the Belichick explanation (Nye, DeGrasse-Tyson, the ball manufacturers, the Columbia physicists mentioned on the previous page). I'm looking for one person outside the Boston area who disagrees with those people and supports the Belichick explanation. I'm not saying such a person does not exist- I assume they do. I just haven't heard about it.

 

[T J]

This is so NOT sarcasm. Could I be wrong? Sure. But it's what I believe 100% to be happening.

I think we can all agree you're 100% wrong, at least about what it means to believe something 100%.

Uh....no. No we can't BOSTONfred. I can only guess what side you come down on.Look, I think it's no big deal personally in that it didn't make a difference and I hope the Pats win the SB so I'm not looking for an axe to grind, but the sheer multitude of scientific theories means they all come across as BS to me - because if any one of them was truly THE answer, this whole thing would be done and over with.

If I'm wrong, I'll own it, but for now they're guilty until proven innocent in my book.

I'm still not getting a smart vibe here. Although you did decode my user name pretty quickly. Try reading it again.

No worries. We all have our own take. If making assumptions about me helps you out, go for it. I believe what I believe until proven wrong. What can I tell ya?

I believe his point is that even the most salty hater would have to have some small percentage of doubt.

really haa nothing to do with my opinions or his. He literally said he was 100% certain in the same post that he said he could be wrong.

The two thought processes are not mutually exclusive.For a silly real world analogy, let's say someone tells me their office is in the Smith bldg. I'm 100% certain that the Smith bldg is on Main St. Turns out I'm wrong and it's on Jones St. (names have been changed to protect the innocent)

It happens all the time in every day life.

Yes. To people who don't know what 100% certainty is and are prone to hyperbole.

Nice try BOSTONfred. Swing and a miss.

you are a dazzling display of the problem with democracy. I don't care what your opinion on the matter is, I'm just intellectually offended by your insistence that it's possible to be 100% certain of something while also saying you might be wrong. it's simply wrong.

No BOSTONfred, it isn't.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Was HE consistently removing a measured amount of air?

Doesn't sound like it. But then he wasn't doing it every week for years, either.

You don’t need 90 seconds to screw with some balls in a bathroom.

I did it in 40!

Like any football fan, I’ve been obsessed with DeflateGate — so when I heard that a Patriots locker room attendant reportedly took 12 AFC Championship game balls into a bathroom for 90 seconds, I decided to see if it was even possible to please Tom Brady in so little time.

So I pulled out the corporate card, bought 12 top-of-the-line balls and inflated them to the manly, 13 pounds per square inch.

Then, curious to see how long it would take to deflate one ball to Brady’s liking, I stuck in a pin, heard the tell-tale “Pssss” for 2.2 seconds and rechecked the pressure with a gauge. It was 11 pounds per square inch.

Do the math: Deflating 12 balls would be easier than toasting Jet cornerback Darrin Walls.

So I loaded the dozen fully inflated pigskins into a big IKEA bag and did what I do best: Take my balls into the bathroom to simulate what the Pats assistant possibly did.

My personal DeflateGate took just 40 seconds. Add in a few bobbles and the time it took to get in and out of the bathroom stall, and the entire affair took me just 77 seconds — well under the 90-second deadline.

Afterwards, I handled the equipment and immediately realized the advantage of softer balls. Even just a pound or two of pressure — which is not easy to detect by just picking up the ball — made them much easier to pass and catch.

 

[Doug B]

Was HE consistently removing a measured amount of air?

Speculation:

Measuring the air would not be necessary. Letting the air out for, say, a slow 2-count every time would be sufficient.

One can let the air out of the balls faster by doing two or three at a time. You remove the needles in the same order you inderted them. Needle in to Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3 ... Needle out of Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3.

Don't think it was done this way in the bathroom ... but if someone had to do it, it's not implausible. If they truly think someone messed with the balls in some way, I'd think first of a switcheroo of ball bags before I thought an exercise in speed deflation.

 

[mbuehner]

http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html

Is there any way this can be stickied or pinned?

Surely after ten days there's a scientist out there who supports the Pats/Belichek explanation who is not based in the Boston area, yes?

Surely after ten days, there is an experiment done with balls that prove that they don't lose psi when taken from an indoors environment, into an outdoors environment with a lower temperature, yes?

I didn't ask for an experiment, I asked for support. There's plenty of people out there who have criticized the Belichick explanation (Nye, DeGrasse-Tyson, the ball manufacturers, the Columbia physicists mentioned on the previous page). I'm looking for one person outside the Boston area who disagrees with those people and supports the Belichick explanation. I'm not saying such a person does not exist- I assume they do. I just haven't heard about it.

Try google.

And NDT walked back his criticism, wisely since it was done incorrectly, which he admitted to.

 

[the moops]

http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html

Is there any way this can be stickied or pinned?

Surely after ten days there's a scientist out there who supports the Pats/Belichek explanation who is not based in the Boston area, yes?

The Carnegie Mellon was the first one out there.

 

[Dezbelief]

http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html

Is there any way this can be stickied or pinned?

Surely after ten days there's a scientist out there who supports the Pats/Belichek explanation who is not based in the Boston area, yes?

Surely after ten days, there is an experiment done with balls that prove that they don't lose psi when taken from an indoors environment, into an outdoors environment with a lower temperature, yes?

Surely by now an experiment would have been done to show the length of time it would have taken for a football to lose 1 or 2 PSI.

 

[Flying Elvis]

The communication by Reisner appears to show that the N.F.L. is taking seriously the question of whether physics could explain the deflation. Reisner’s call to the Columbia physics department first became known when Brian Metzger, a physicist at Columbia, mentioned it in a Facebook post.

In a bit of physics humor, Metzger then asked in the post whether Brian Greene of Columbia — one of the world’s best-known cosmologists — would “step up to the task.”

Reisner did not immediately respond late Tuesday night to email and voice mail messages requesting comment on his query to the physics department.

William Zajc, another Columbia physicist who was aware of the request by Reisner, said that he was tempted to field the questions because of all the flawed physics discussions he had seen in news media reports.

“I’m amused,” Zajc said of the query. But in the end, he said, “I didn’t do it.”

Zajc said he believed there was little chance that atmospheric effects alone could account for the discrepancies in the football pressure.

“I think it’s more likely than not that they were manipulated,” Zajc said.

key points that you may have overlooked. No one should care what the opinions of any one person are. Opinions aren't science, even if they are made by scientists.

The bigger missed point, to me, seems to be that Zajc says outright that he did not field the questions from the investigator. To make his opinion more valid than any other "science guy", we then have to assume that he received the NFL pressure measurement data from the person that did field those questions. Once again, a whole lot of assumptions and zero factual data.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Was HE consistently removing a measured amount of air?

Speculation:

Measuring the air would not be necessary. Letting the air out for, say, a slow 2-count every time would be sufficient.

One can let the air out of the balls faster by doing two or three at a time. You remove the needles in the same order you inderted them. Needle in to Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3 ... Needle out of Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3.

Don't think it was done this way in the bathroom ... but if someone had to do it, it's not implausible. If they truly think someone messed with the balls in some way, I'd think first of a switcheroo of ball bags before I thought an exercise in speed deflation.

If Curious George was waiting in the bathroom, he could do four balls at a time.

 

[the moops]

http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html

Is there any way this can be stickied or pinned?

Surely after ten days there's a scientist out there who supports the Pats/Belichek explanation who is not based in the Boston area, yes?

Surely after ten days, there is an experiment done with balls that prove that they don't lose psi when taken from an indoors environment, into an outdoors environment with a lower temperature, yes?

I didn't ask for an experiment, I asked for support. There's plenty of people out there who have criticized the Belichick explanation (Nye, DeGrasse-Tyson, the ball manufacturers, the Columbia physicists mentioned on the previous page). I'm looking for one person outside the Boston area who disagrees with those people and supports the Belichick explanation. I'm not saying such a person does not exist- I assume they do. I just haven't heard about it.

Nye was joking. Degrasse corrected himself. The ball manufacturer was actually just some marketing guy who works for Wilson. The Colombia physicist didn't even try the experiment.

 

[parrot]

The arguement that it was the weather that dropped the psi is just stupid.

If that were the case it would've effected Indy balls too. And yes I know, there isn't proof that this wasn't the case. But don't you think that if it was the case that weather effected both team balls the same but Indy balls stayed about the limit, that they would've just stated that and dropped it? You don't need an investigation if both team balls lowered the same amount or even close to that amount.

Goodell's been listening to people ##### about how he destroyed the Camerainplainviewonthesidelinegate tapes for 7 years now, and he he just went through a major ####storm over not treating the Ray Rice incident seriously enough. Once word of this was in the wind with the media, there was no way it was going away easily.

Seriously, this Patriots team just cannot catch a break from the NFL front office, right? If it's not changing the rules at the behest of the team's quarterback or destroying the evidence of their cheating without explanation, it's scheduling them for "road" games in London every other season to ensure that they end up playing only seven true regular season road games as often as possible. When will the Commissioner put a stop to this Patriots witch hunt?

I didn't say anything about the Patriots catching a break from the NFL office. The point is that Goodell is under a lot of scrutiny on ANY scandal at this point, and particularly so when it involves the Patriots, for some of the perceived reasons YOU mentioned. So I guess thanks for helping me make my point.

 

[Old Smiley]

Was HE consistently removing a measured amount of air?

Speculation:

Measuring the air would not be necessary. Letting the air out for, say, a slow 2-count every time would be sufficient.

One can let the air out of the balls faster by doing two or three at a time. You remove the needles in the same order you inderted them. Needle in to Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3 ... Needle out of Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3.

Don't think it was done this way in the bathroom ... but if someone had to do it, it's not implausible. If they truly think someone messed with the balls in some way, I'd think first of a switcheroo of ball bags before I thought an exercise in speed deflation.

Except that the inspected balls are marked as such.

To me this ball boy taking a leak thing is more the league reaching, clutching at straws because they're playing checkers.

If I was ascribing something nefarious to the Pats I'd be more along the lines of: Abrade the balls in such a way that you gain a pound pressure. Submit the balls asking the refs to inflate them to 12.5 knowing because of the Ideal Gas Law you're going to get your pound back. Wait for nature to run its course.

Much more elegant, much more Belichickian.

edit: I mean think about it. You ask the Refs! to fill the balls. It's beautiful.

 

[[icon]]

Speculation:

Bill Belichick and Tom Brady are members of an alien race, sent here to test the species advanced football skills prior to a full on invasion.

 

[the moops]

A Boston guy did this, so he probably lied, but...

Football was inflated in a 72 degree environment to 13 with a hand pump. I used 13 because it's easier to see on the gauge than 12.5, which is between marks. I overshot a tiny bit deflating the football and so true starting was around 12.9. Football was brought into a 39 degree environment. I know this is colder than game temps, but I can only work with what I have. Football was dry.

After 30 minutes at 39 degrees: 11.0 psi

After 60 minutes at 39 degrees: 11.0 psi

 

[MG345]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them with, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

it's not, but it's not a necessary leap to make. Why not just assume they were inflated to 13.5 psi at room temp?

The colts-cold-ball theory is basically they were filled to 13.5 psi in the cold, rushed and checked indoors at 13.5 psi, and then they would remain at 13.5 psi throughout the game.

Because its totally reasonable that the away team had their balls sitting outside, and its totally plausible that knowing they were going to challenge the Patriots balls they topped off their own balls before submitting them to the refs.

The balls could have been set to ANY legal pressure outside and would have read about that same pressure at halftime. Its going to take longer for balls to warm up sitting piled in a bag in the refs room than to cool down getting wet and tossed around outside. Would you stipulate that in half an hour a 10dF rise in temperature would be reasonable? I'd say thats even generous, but in that case you would expect a rise of .5psi. So if the ball was set at 13 it would read 13.5 after half an hour inside.

Link? Why is it ok to assume what happened on the Colts side, but Pats fans want to crucify people for assuming what happened on the Pats side?

Its not ok to assume anything. Thats the point, and why everybody gets bent out of shape when the 9000th person starts screaming about the Colts balls. We dont have any information on them. So anybody can make any assumptions they want. I just pointed out a totally reasonable scenario for how the Colts balls would stay within the legal range. I'll undoubtedly have to do it again in 2 pages.

Ok, so you say it isn't ok to assume anything...yet that is all you and the Patriots fans have been doing as well. Just seems there is a whole lot of what is good for the goose is good for the gander missing here. You set up very specific instances of how the Patriots footballs could come to be under inflated, trusting the reports that buoy your viewpoint. You then turn around and denigrate people for doing the same thing on the Colts side. I get you are playing devil's advocate, but unfortunately for Pats fans that cuts both ways.

Well, you understand the burden of proof is on the accusers right?

Yep. Which is why the NFL is taking all the time in the world to hopefully get it right. How exactly does that have any bearing on a message board discussion? I guess my point is, the Pats fans are trying to frame an argument but then balking at any attempt to frame an argument on the other side. I think most rational people can admit we don't have all the facts, and at this point there are enough reports to read the situation how you want depending on how you believe. Pats fans disregarding contradictory reports, because they don't suit the Pats argument, seems hypocritical, FWIW.

Either let all the facts play out, or take all things at equal weight. Why anyone would believe Florio over Mort, or vice versa, is beyond me. Or any variation of that situation.

 

[the moops]

So, to repeat, starting pressure at 13.0 in about 71 degree conditions. I deflated the football and filled it with a hand pump to 13.0, and tested it after 10 minutes and after 20 minutes in the same room to make sure it was holding steady at 13.0 and it was. Straight into 39 degrees for 35 minutes. Time zero was when I brought it back to 71 degrees.

Time zero: 11.0 p.s.i

+ 1 minute: 11.3 psi

+ 2 minutes: 11.6 psi

+ 4 minutes: 11.95-12.0 psi

+ 7 minutes 12.4 psi

+ 9 minutes 12.6 psi

+ 12 minutes: 12.75 psi

+ 15 minutes 12.95 psi

 

[[icon]]

A Boston guy did this, so he probably lied, but...

Football was inflated in a 72 degree environment to 13 with a hand pump. I used 13 because it's easier to see on the gauge than 12.5, which is between marks. I overshot a tiny bit deflating the football and so true starting was around 12.9. Football was brought into a 39 degree environment. I know this is colder than game temps, but I can only work with what I have. Football was dry.

After 30 minutes at 39 degrees: 11.0 psi

After 60 minutes at 39 degrees: 11.0 psi

Yes but his evil Boston-fan fangs and claws likely accidentally punctured the ball, causing pressure loss.

 

[Flying Elvis]

So, to repeat, starting pressure at 13.0 in about 71 degree conditions. I deflated the football and filled it with a hand pump to 13.0, and tested it after 10 minutes and after 20 minutes in the same room to make sure it was holding steady at 13.0 and it was. Straight into 39 degrees for 35 minutes. Time zero was when I brought it back to 71 degrees.

Time zero: 11.0 p.s.i

+ 1 minute: 11.3 psi

+ 2 minutes: 11.6 psi

+ 4 minutes: 11.95-12.0 psi

+ 7 minutes 12.4 psi

+ 9 minutes 12.6 psi

+ 12 minutes: 12.75 psi

+ 15 minutes 12.95 psi

I am saddened by the fact that you didn't take the time to Gonk that mofo!

 

[JIslander]

Was HE consistently removing a measured amount of air?

Speculation:

Measuring the air would not be necessary. Letting the air out for, say, a slow 2-count every time would be sufficient.

One can let the air out of the balls faster by doing two or three at a time. You remove the needles in the same order you inderted them. Needle in to Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3 ... Needle out of Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3.

Don't think it was done this way in the bathroom ... but if someone had to do it, it's not implausible. If they truly think someone messed with the balls in some way, I'd think first of a switcheroo of ball bags before I thought an exercise in speed deflation.

Except that the inspected balls are marked as such.

To me this ball boy taking a leak thing is more the league reaching, clutching at straws because they're playing checkers.

If I was ascribing something nefarious to the Pats I'd be more along the lines of: Abrade the balls in such a way that you gain a pound pressure. Submit the balls asking the refs to inflate them to 12.5 knowing because of the Ideal Gas Law you're going to get your pound back. Wait for nature to run its course.

Much more elegant, much more Belichickian.

edit: I mean think about it. You ask the Refs! to fill the balls. It's beautiful.

This I totally buy. Also think ball boy could have been told "don't let these out of your sight" and had to take a pisser.

 

[Anarchy99]

Using that PSI pressure calculator, if the Colts footballs started out at 13.7 PSI (slightly above the threshold), the footballs would have registered at 12.43 PSI as a final pressure.

If the footballs NE supplied started at 12.3 PSI (slighlty below the threshold), then they would have registered a final pressure of 11.09 PSI.

Both of of those starting readings could easily be dimissed as "close enough" for the officials in a squeeze test (and maybe even a gauge test). The Colts footballguys could have been deemed within spec throughout while there would be potential outrage that the NE footballs were under inflated.

And there would have been no one physically deflating the footballs in a bathroom with a needle to get the results that have been reported.

 

[Flying Elvis]

Also, am I missing them, or have there really been no fap jokes about deflating balls in the john?

 

[MG345]

Also, am I missing them, or have there really been no fap jokes about deflating balls in the john?

You deflate your balls into John?

 

[[icon]]

So, to repeat, starting pressure at 13.0 in about 71 degree conditions. I deflated the football and filled it with a hand pump to 13.0, and tested it after 10 minutes and after 20 minutes in the same room to make sure it was holding steady at 13.0 and it was. Straight into 39 degrees for 35 minutes. Time zero was when I brought it back to 71 degrees.

Time zero: 11.0 p.s.i

+ 1 minute: 11.3 psi

+ 2 minutes: 11.6 psi

+ 4 minutes: 11.95-12.0 psi

+ 7 minutes 12.4 psi

+ 9 minutes 12.6 psi

+ 12 minutes: 12.75 psi

+ 15 minutes 12.95 psi

I'm not sure why you're wasting time capturing real world data when you could be flailing about terribly while attempting to execute math equations like the rest of the folks in here.