Patriots being investigated after Colts game (1 Viewer)

[Old Smiley]

Michael McCann is probably where you want to go. He's hosted at least one seminar on deflate gate science.

Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw Jan 18

On the 1yr anniversary of Deflategate, I write for @SInow "Anatomy of a Failed Controversy": http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/18/deflategate-one-year-later-tom-brady-bill-belichick …

Edit: I got nothing to say on Manning. Other than I guess I'm a little ticked by how willing the sports media are to not pontificate on it. Nance (who shares an agent with Manning) ticked me off.

Edit II: As far as what these guys do to heal themselves or extend their careers, I say let's talk about it. Let's try and find out what's harmful and what's not.

 

[JIslander]

Michael McCann is probably where you want to go. He's hosted at least one seminar on deflate gate science.

Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw Jan 18

On the 1yr anniversary of Deflategate, I write for @SInow "Anatomy of a Failed Controversy": http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/18/deflategate-one-year-later-tom-brady-bill-belichick …

Edit: I got nothing to say on Manning. Other than I guess I'm a little ticked by how willing the sports media are to not pontificate on it. Nance (who shares an agent with Manning) ticked me off.

Edit II: As far as what these guys do to heal themselves or extend their careers, I say let's talk about it. Let's try and find out what's harmful and what's not.

wait --I thought this thread was about deflating footballs. -- but seriously, the Pats were deflating /altering footballs. You can round up all the academic expertise you want to refute the AFCCG, but whether you like it or not, public opinion is such.

 

[Old Smiley]

If you're happy with the league's conduct, good on ya.

 

[dansav]

Did godell destroy the results of the PSI spot checks???

Based on the reports last year and the magnitude in which the NFL cared about PSI you would think they would have concrete results and not just spot checks...

This guy should lose his job.

 

[JIslander]

If you're happy with the league's conduct, good on ya.

I'm pretty sure I can say I'm not happy with the league's conduct AND the Patriot's conduct and wouldn't be in the minority..

 

[BustedKnuckles]

If you're happy with the league's conduct, good on ya.

I'm pretty sure I can say I'm not happy with the league's conduct AND the Patriot's conduct and wouldn't be in the minority..

the haters are still trying to hang there hat on an invisible hook ...so strange

 

[rick6668]

I'm a pretty big Pats fans myself, but I'm still amazed by what people think of deflategate:

A) They were, at some point, for X many games, deflating footballs to suit Brady (the texts show that beyond a shadow of a doubt).

B) They did not, for whatever reason (whether they stopped long ago, whether they got "tipped off") deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Simple as that.

A) This is pretty much given, is a big part of why a lot of people are calling them cheats, and it would do better for more Pats fans to accept that fact.

B) There is a lot of disagreement on this part, and mostly Pats fans seem to use this 'theory' as a saving grace.

The disagreement is held by those who are unaware of the facts. Science doesn't support the theory that any undue manipulation took place.

link to said facts?

It seems to me that you are more obsessed with this than any Pats fan.

I agree. moleculo is more obsessed with facts than any Pats fan who has posted in this thread.

 

[moleculo]

Michael McCann is probably where you want to go. He's hosted at least one seminar on deflate gate science.

Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw Jan 18

On the 1yr anniversary of Deflategate, I write for @SInow "Anatomy of a Failed Controversy": http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/18/deflategate-one-year-later-tom-brady-bill-belichick …

Edit: I got nothing to say on Manning. Other than I guess I'm a little ticked by how willing the sports media are to not pontificate on it. Nance (who shares an agent with Manning) ticked me off.

Edit II: As far as what these guys do to heal themselves or extend their careers, I say let's talk about it. Let's try and find out what's harmful and what's not.

Thanks.

at first glance, I find this (linked in the cnnsi article) to be pretty compelling. I'll review in greater detail later, but I doubt I'll find anything troubling. Had the Pats used this guy for their initial rebuttal, I would have been campaigning for your side hard.

As much as I dislike the pats and their on-line fans, I like facts and science more. It's a shame he didn't publish that until 11/15.

 

[Run It Up]

The basis was talked about during the appeal, but it was no longer relevant to push the scientific angle because the league had already shifted arguments. Kessler was more than happy to change the subject away from the science because the league also didn't have legal ground to stand on. But be never abandoned it was one of the four basis for why Brady suspension should have been overturned during the appeal and subsequent court case.

Professors from all over the country had been looking at the Wells and Exponent reports and giving their opinions of it as early as the week it came out - the case against the league has only gotten stronger with more eyes on it.

 

[moleculo]

The basis was talked about during the appeal, but it was no longer relevant to push the scientific angle because the league had already shifted arguments. Kessler was more than happy to change the subject away from the science because the league also didn't have legal ground to stand on. But be never abandoned it was one of the four basis for why Brady suspension should have been overturned during the appeal and subsequent court case.

Professors from all over the country had been looking at the Wells and Exponent reports and giving their opinions of it as early as the week it came out - the case against the league has only gotten stronger with more eyes on it.

then why did the Pats rely on someone with no scientific background to argue their case on scientific matters?

It's crazy.

They should have had their own science guys doing their own stuff from day one - it was obvious that this was how it was going down.

 

[Run It Up]

It was a #### show, no one will disagree with that. Kraft was trying to do damage control. Brady was adamant from the beginning that he didn't do anything and gave sworn testimony at his appeal.

They were no longer arguing the science, they were arguing the statistics of exponents analysis.

The shield surprised everyone when they just decided out of the blue to stop arguing the science and instead paint Brady in as bad of a picture as possible. Leaking his destroyed phone. Then calling the act proof that not only was he aware, he actively participated in it - and later in the court case, the league claimed Brady had devised and participated in a ball tampering scheme.

The goal posts never stopped moving.

 

[dansav]

From weei.com

Roger Goodell and the NFL continue to mishandle Deflategate. (Jason Getz/USA TODAY Sports)Maybe a five-month break from Deflategate with the NFL season in full swing would give the NFL enough time to have a better approach to handling the saga?

Nope. Not even close.

After the Deflategate mess played out in court during the last offseason, the NFL said in August it had a plan to randomly collect PSI data from footballs in select games over the course of the 2015 season.

OK, great. Maybe there would finally be an answer to whether the footballs used by the Patriots lost air pressure in last year's AFC championship game due to foul play or the natural operation of the ideal gas law.

Over the course of the season reports surfaced of games where the random testing was taking place -- the Patriots' late-December meeting against the Titans at Gillette Stadium, the frigid wild card game between the Vikings and Seahawks in Minnesota, to name a couple. Now that the season is over, with the exception of Super Bowl 50, maybe the results would finally be made public.

Wrong again -- at least for now. And while we're on the subject, it's been learned the random testing that took place all season wasn't a research study, it was actually just "spot checks."

"What the league did this year was what we do with a lot of rules and policies designed to protect the integrity of the game, and that's to create a deterrent effect," commissioner Roger Goodell said Tuesday on "The Rich Eisen Show." "We do spot checks to prevent and make sure the clubs understand that we're watching these issues. It wasn't a research study. They simply were spot checks. There were no violations this year. We're pleased that we haven't had any violations and we continue the work, obviously, to consistently and importantly enforce the integrity of the game and the rules that are designed to protect it."

Spot checks, huh?

Going back to August when the random checks of footballs at select games was announced, the NFL released the exact details of how this would take place, which read in part: At designated games, selected at random, the game balls used in the first half will be collected by the KBC at halftime, and the Leagues Security Representative will escort the KBC with the footballs to the Officials Locker room. During halftime, each game ball for both teams will be inspected in the locker room by designated members of the officiating and security crews, and the PSI results will be measured and recorded. ... At the end of any randomly selected game, the KBC will return the footballs to the Officials Locker Room where all game balls from each team will be inspected and the results will be recorded. ... All game ball information will be recorded on the Referees Report, which must be submitted to the League office by noon on the day following the game.

All that language just for spot checks to make sure teams understand the NFL is watching over them? That just doesn't seem right.

Spot checks would be having someone from the NFL randomly pop in to do a pregame check of the footballs to make sure things were going smoothly -- more of a threat than anything else to make sure things aren't getting out of hand. Like when police say they are going to crack down on texting while driving. It's likely not going to happen, but they are putting the public on alert.

What the NFL laid out back in August sure sounds like something more like a research study than spot checks. Why is the game ball information being recorded on a "Referee's Report" and due back to the league office by noon the next day just for a spot check? Sounds pretty involved for something that is being done just to make sure teams are following the rules. If that were the case, why keep the data at all? If everything is right on game day, just toss the numbers into the trash. After all, it's just a spot check.

Goodell had no problem acknowledging there were no PSI violations during the year, so why not come out with the complete data of the findings? If everything went according to how it was supposed to go, there should be a bunch of "Referee's Reports" at the league office with the readings, and all the NFL needs to do is combine those reports into one big one. Not a complicated task.

This isn't to say the numbers won't ever come out, as Goodell never explicitly said the PSI data would never be released, but with the way the entire Deflategate matter has been handled, the numbers do need to be released at some point.

If they don't, the public is continued to be left with more questions than answers and the NFL digs itself deeper and deeper into the incompetence hole, furthering the argument that Deflategate was just a big waste of everyone's time.

 

[Old Smiley]

Tom Curran and Dan Wetzel both have the long knives out:

Wetzel:

NFL's missing data on air pressure is another black eye in deflate-gate saga

Curran:

Goodell: NFL won't share this year's PSI numbers

Edit: First round pick. A million dollars. STILL going after Brady for four games.

New Thursday Night Football deal: close to a billion. Probably Rog is going to be around for a while.

 

[kyoun1e]

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4790377/columnists-critical-of-roger-goodell-regarding-spot-check-remarks

 

[davearm]

I'm a pretty big Pats fans myself, but I'm still amazed by what people think of deflategate:

A) They were, at some point, for X many games, deflating footballs to suit Brady (the texts show that beyond a shadow of a doubt).

B) They did not, for whatever reason (whether they stopped long ago, whether they got "tipped off") deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Simple as that.

We still have video of "the deflator" taking the bag of footballs into a bathroom before the start of the AFCCG.

The science that refutes deflation before the AFCCG relies heavily on some questionable (IMO) assumptions about the timing of the halftime measurements. The science only disproves deflation if the Colts balls are measured several minutes after the Patriots' balls, and not at the same time as the Patriots' balls.

What conclusion the science leads us to really hinges entirely on the measurement timing issue.

 

[Old Smiley]

Tom: If I EVER see another sixteen pound ball I'll cut your yarbles off and feed them to my dog!

Yastremski and McNally: Can do chief.

So, a conspiracy to ensure the footballs were properly inflated.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

I'm a pretty big Pats fans myself, but I'm still amazed by what people think of deflategate:

A) They were, at some point, for X many games, deflating footballs to suit Brady (the texts show that beyond a shadow of a doubt).

B) They did not, for whatever reason (whether they stopped long ago, whether they got "tipped off") deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Simple as that.

We still have video of "the deflator" taking the bag of footballs into a bathroom before the start of the AFCCG.

The science that refutes deflation before the AFCCG relies heavily on some questionable (IMO) assumptions about the timing of the halftime measurements. The science only disproves deflation if the Colts balls are measured several minutes after the Patriots' balls, and not at the same time as the Patriots' balls.

What conclusion the science leads us to really hinges entirely on the measurement timing issue.

Yes, video of an equipment guy going to the bathroom before the start of the game is "evidence" however it is a lot less damning "evidence" than P Manning having PEDs shipped to his house

The science that refutes deflation does not really do anything you are trying to claim or disclaim. The science relies on physics (not open to interpretation) not assumptions.

Regarding the "questionable assumptions" that you appear to be making up out of thin air (admittedly I could be wrong) I hadn't really heard of that. Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? I have seen it stated as fact that the few Colts balls that were tested were done after NEs and they stopped testing due to time constraints. Did I miss a credible report claiming otherwise or is it purely wishful\hopeful thinking on your part?

The truly questionable assumption is the one pretending Walt Anderson didn't use the gauge he said he did since it is THAT assumption and only that assumption that prevents the entire episode from being exposed for the colt\raven\jet cry baby sore loser farce of an attempted setup it actually was.

 

[davearm]

I'm a pretty big Pats fans myself, but I'm still amazed by what people think of deflategate:

A) They were, at some point, for X many games, deflating footballs to suit Brady (the texts show that beyond a shadow of a doubt).

B) They did not, for whatever reason (whether they stopped long ago, whether they got "tipped off") deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Simple as that.

We still have video of "the deflator" taking the bag of footballs into a bathroom before the start of the AFCCG.

The science that refutes deflation before the AFCCG relies heavily on some questionable (IMO) assumptions about the timing of the halftime measurements. The science only disproves deflation if the Colts balls are measured several minutes after the Patriots' balls, and not at the same time as the Patriots' balls.

What conclusion the science leads us to really hinges entirely on the measurement timing issue.

Yes, video of an equipment guy going to the bathroom before the start of the game is "evidence" however it is a lot less damning "evidence" than P Manning having PEDs shipped to his house

The science that refutes deflation does not really do anything you are trying to claim or disclaim. The science relies on physics (not open to interpretation) not assumptions.

Regarding the "questionable assumptions" that you appear to be making up out of thin air (admittedly I could be wrong) I hadn't really heard of that. Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? I have seen it stated as fact that the few Colts balls that were tested were done after NEs and they stopped testing due to time constraints. Did I miss a credible report claiming otherwise or is it purely wishful\hopeful thinking on your part?

The truly questionable assumption is the one pretending Walt Anderson didn't use the gauge he said he did since it is THAT assumption and only that assumption that prevents the entire episode from being exposed for the colt\raven\jet cry baby sore loser farce of an attempted setup it actually was.

I'll try and dumb it down for you while still keeping things accurate.

The assumption is that the Colts' balls initially registered 13.0 PSI, and the Pats balls initially registered 12.5 PSI, both measured at an ambient temperature of 71* inside the officials' locker room.

The ideal gas law tells us that those same footballs should register 11.8 (Colts) and 11.32 (Pats) at an ambient temperature of 48*. So, roughly the same delta of 0.5 PSI.

When those footballs are brought in from 48* outside, and placed in the 71* room, their PSIs will gradually increase from 11.8 and 11.32, returning to their initial values of 13.0 and 12.5. So it should now be obvious to see that whether the balls as tested at halftime of the AFCCG showed PSI reading that were at, above, or below what they should have been expected to be depends entirely upon how long they had been indoors, and how much their temperature had risen.

What was observed at halftime was a delta of 1.2 PSI between the Colts' balls and the Pats' balls. That is either entirely explainable by science, if sufficient time had elapsed between measurements to allow the Colts balls to warm up more than the Pats' balls had, or the allegations against the Pats are more or less proven if no time had elapsed between the times the balls were measured.

As I said, the whole thing revolves around the timing of the measurements. Hope this helps.

 

[Run It Up]

Wells/Exponent mistake affects outcome:

The Wells Report made numerous errors in its scientific analysis of Deflategate. In fact, nearly everything in the transient analyses, shown below, is wrong. This Led to an incorrect conclusion that science could not explain the drop in Patriots pressure. However when the errors are fixed, the Patriots footballs can be explained by natural causes, regardless of which gauge referee Walt Anderson used to measure the footballs before the game.

These findings have been endorsed by professors across the country including John Leonard, the MIT professor who teaches a course on deflategate.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

I'm a pretty big Pats fans myself, but I'm still amazed by what people think of deflategate:

A) They were, at some point, for X many games, deflating footballs to suit Brady (the texts show that beyond a shadow of a doubt).

B) They did not, for whatever reason (whether they stopped long ago, whether they got "tipped off") deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Simple as that.

We still have video of "the deflator" taking the bag of footballs into a bathroom before the start of the AFCCG.

The science that refutes deflation before the AFCCG relies heavily on some questionable (IMO) assumptions about the timing of the halftime measurements. The science only disproves deflation if the Colts balls are measured several minutes after the Patriots' balls, and not at the same time as the Patriots' balls.

What conclusion the science leads us to really hinges entirely on the measurement timing issue.

Yes, video of an equipment guy going to the bathroom before the start of the game is "evidence" however it is a lot less damning "evidence" than P Manning having PEDs shipped to his house

The science that refutes deflation does not really do anything you are trying to claim or disclaim. The science relies on physics (not open to interpretation) not assumptions.

Regarding the "questionable assumptions" that you appear to be making up out of thin air (admittedly I could be wrong) I hadn't really heard of that. Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? I have seen it stated as fact that the few Colts balls that were tested were done after NEs and they stopped testing due to time constraints. Did I miss a credible report claiming otherwise or is it purely wishful\hopeful thinking on your part?

The truly questionable assumption is the one pretending Walt Anderson didn't use the gauge he said he did since it is THAT assumption and only that assumption that prevents the entire episode from being exposed for the colt\raven\jet cry baby sore loser farce of an attempted setup it actually was.

I'll try and dumb it down for you while still keeping things accurate.

The assumption is that the Colts' balls initially registered 13.0 PSI, and the Pats balls initially registered 12.5 PSI, both measured at an ambient temperature of 71* inside the officials' locker room.

The ideal gas law tells us that those same footballs should register 11.8 (Colts) and 11.32 (Pats) at an ambient temperature of 48*. So, roughly the same delta of 0.5 PSI.

When those footballs are brought in from 48* outside, and placed in the 71* room, their PSIs will gradually increase from 11.8 and 11.32, returning to their initial values of 13.0 and 12.5. So it should now be obvious to see that whether the balls as tested at halftime of the AFCCG showed PSI reading that were at, above, or below what they should have been expected to be depends entirely upon how long they had been indoors, and how much their temperature had risen.

What was observed at halftime was a delta of 1.2 PSI between the Colts' balls and the Pats' balls. That is either entirely explainable by science, if sufficient time had elapsed between measurements to allow the Colts balls to warm up more than the Pats' balls had, or the allegations against the Pats are more or less proven if no time had elapsed between the times the balls were measured.

As I said, the whole thing revolves around the timing of the measurements. Hope this helps.

What would be helpful is for you to refrain from the childish insults "dumbing down ", stop the bloviating and simply provide a credible link that supports your wishful thinking?

Again I ask

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? I have seen it stated as fact that the few Colts balls that were tested were done after NEs and they stopped testing due to time constraints. Did I miss a credible report claiming otherwise or is it purely wishful\hopeful thinking on your part?

If the answer to the above question is no, then according to your very own words the science disproves deflation (supports Patriots assertions) and we can move on.

If the answer is yes then provide some (one?) credible link(s) that supports your assertion/hypothesis/wishful thinking with regard to the measurement timing.

 

[JIslander]

314 pages and you guys still can't sleep. I feel for you.

http://www.theonion.com/graphic/tom-brady-haunted-destroyed-cell-phone-ringing-ben-51253

 

[Old Smiley]

From Phil Perry :

Blandino: "We measured PSI levels and recorded that information so right now we're evaluating the information."

From Dan Wetzel's piece, linked above.

"The NFL commissioner returned the favor on Tuesday when he announced the league did not keep any of the data on air pressure of footballs that officials were required to log and submit to the league office during the 2015 season."

Your NFL folks. Your NFL.

 

[moleculo]

I'm a pretty big Pats fans myself, but I'm still amazed by what people think of deflategate:

A) They were, at some point, for X many games, deflating footballs to suit Brady (the texts show that beyond a shadow of a doubt).

B) They did not, for whatever reason (whether they stopped long ago, whether they got "tipped off") deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Simple as that.

We still have video of "the deflator" taking the bag of footballs into a bathroom before the start of the AFCCG.

The science that refutes deflation before the AFCCG relies heavily on some questionable (IMO) assumptions about the timing of the halftime measurements. The science only disproves deflation if the Colts balls are measured several minutes after the Patriots' balls, and not at the same time as the Patriots' balls.

What conclusion the science leads us to really hinges entirely on the measurement timing issue.

Yes, video of an equipment guy going to the bathroom before the start of the game is "evidence" however it is a lot less damning "evidence" than P Manning having PEDs shipped to his house

The science that refutes deflation does not really do anything you are trying to claim or disclaim. The science relies on physics (not open to interpretation) not assumptions.

Regarding the "questionable assumptions" that you appear to be making up out of thin air (admittedly I could be wrong) I hadn't really heard of that. Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? I have seen it stated as fact that the few Colts balls that were tested were done after NEs and they stopped testing due to time constraints. Did I miss a credible report claiming otherwise or is it purely wishful\hopeful thinking on your part?

The truly questionable assumption is the one pretending Walt Anderson didn't use the gauge he said he did since it is THAT assumption and only that assumption that prevents the entire episode from being exposed for the colt\raven\jet cry baby sore loser farce of an attempted setup it actually was.

I'll try and dumb it down for you while still keeping things accurate.

The assumption is that the Colts' balls initially registered 13.0 PSI, and the Pats balls initially registered 12.5 PSI, both measured at an ambient temperature of 71* inside the officials' locker room.

The ideal gas law tells us that those same footballs should register 11.8 (Colts) and 11.32 (Pats) at an ambient temperature of 48*. So, roughly the same delta of 0.5 PSI.

When those footballs are brought in from 48* outside, and placed in the 71* room, their PSIs will gradually increase from 11.8 and 11.32, returning to their initial values of 13.0 and 12.5. So it should now be obvious to see that whether the balls as tested at halftime of the AFCCG showed PSI reading that were at, above, or below what they should have been expected to be depends entirely upon how long they had been indoors, and how much their temperature had risen.

What was observed at halftime was a delta of 1.2 PSI between the Colts' balls and the Pats' balls. That is either entirely explainable by science, if sufficient time had elapsed between measurements to allow the Colts balls to warm up more than the Pats' balls had, or the allegations against the Pats are more or less proven if no time had elapsed between the times the balls were measured.

As I said, the whole thing revolves around the timing of the measurements. Hope this helps.

What would be helpful is for you to refrain from the childish insults "dumbing down ", stop the bloviating and simply provide a credible link that supports your wishful thinking?

Again I ask

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? I have seen it stated as fact that the few Colts balls that were tested were done after NEs and they stopped testing due to time constraints. Did I miss a credible report claiming otherwise or is it purely wishful\hopeful thinking on your part?

If the answer to the above question is no, then according to your very own words the science disproves deflation (supports Patriots assertions) and we can move on.

If the answer is yes then provide some (one?) credible link(s) that supports your assertion/hypothesis/wishful thinking with regard to the measurement timing.

the science doesn't disprove anything. It never did.

The best Exponent could do was say the science didn't support natural depressurization (i.e. from the ideal gas law). Based on the Leonard report, the science says that natural depressurization may be a factor - it cannot be ruled out.

picky, I know, but I think it's important to be accurate in what we are talking about. It's kind of a "you can't prove a negative" thing.

 

[Run It Up]

We call those witch trials usually.

 

[davearm]

I'm a pretty big Pats fans myself, but I'm still amazed by what people think of deflategate:

A) They were, at some point, for X many games, deflating footballs to suit Brady (the texts show that beyond a shadow of a doubt).

B) They did not, for whatever reason (whether they stopped long ago, whether they got "tipped off") deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Simple as that.

We still have video of "the deflator" taking the bag of footballs into a bathroom before the start of the AFCCG.

The science that refutes deflation before the AFCCG relies heavily on some questionable (IMO) assumptions about the timing of the halftime measurements. The science only disproves deflation if the Colts balls are measured several minutes after the Patriots' balls, and not at the same time as the Patriots' balls.

What conclusion the science leads us to really hinges entirely on the measurement timing issue.

Yes, video of an equipment guy going to the bathroom before the start of the game is "evidence" however it is a lot less damning "evidence" than P Manning having PEDs shipped to his house

The science that refutes deflation does not really do anything you are trying to claim or disclaim. The science relies on physics (not open to interpretation) not assumptions.

Regarding the "questionable assumptions" that you appear to be making up out of thin air (admittedly I could be wrong) I hadn't really heard of that. Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? I have seen it stated as fact that the few Colts balls that were tested were done after NEs and they stopped testing due to time constraints. Did I miss a credible report claiming otherwise or is it purely wishful\hopeful thinking on your part?

The truly questionable assumption is the one pretending Walt Anderson didn't use the gauge he said he did since it is THAT assumption and only that assumption that prevents the entire episode from being exposed for the colt\raven\jet cry baby sore loser farce of an attempted setup it actually was.

I'll try and dumb it down for you while still keeping things accurate.

The assumption is that the Colts' balls initially registered 13.0 PSI, and the Pats balls initially registered 12.5 PSI, both measured at an ambient temperature of 71* inside the officials' locker room.

The ideal gas law tells us that those same footballs should register 11.8 (Colts) and 11.32 (Pats) at an ambient temperature of 48*. So, roughly the same delta of 0.5 PSI.

When those footballs are brought in from 48* outside, and placed in the 71* room, their PSIs will gradually increase from 11.8 and 11.32, returning to their initial values of 13.0 and 12.5. So it should now be obvious to see that whether the balls as tested at halftime of the AFCCG showed PSI reading that were at, above, or below what they should have been expected to be depends entirely upon how long they had been indoors, and how much their temperature had risen.

What was observed at halftime was a delta of 1.2 PSI between the Colts' balls and the Pats' balls. That is either entirely explainable by science, if sufficient time had elapsed between measurements to allow the Colts balls to warm up more than the Pats' balls had, or the allegations against the Pats are more or less proven if no time had elapsed between the times the balls were measured.

As I said, the whole thing revolves around the timing of the measurements. Hope this helps.

What would be helpful is for you to refrain from the childish insults "dumbing down ", stop the bloviating and simply provide a credible link that supports your wishful thinking?

Again I ask

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? I have seen it stated as fact that the few Colts balls that were tested were done after NEs and they stopped testing due to time constraints. Did I miss a credible report claiming otherwise or is it purely wishful\hopeful thinking on your part?

If the answer to the above question is no, then according to your very own words the science disproves deflation (supports Patriots assertions) and we can move on.

If the answer is yes then provide some (one?) credible link(s) that supports your assertion/hypothesis/wishful thinking with regard to the measurement timing.

There has been no definitive information at all about the timing of the halftime PSI measurements, that I'm aware of.The closest thing we have is that all the Colts balls were not measured because the officials ran out of time. That sheds no light at all on the critical issue of how much time (if any) elapsed between the measurement of Pats balls and the measurement of Colts balls.

Point being, I can no more prove that they were measured at the same time as I can prove that they were measured at different times, and neither can you (correct me if I'm wrong, of course). Which is fine, because I'm not trying to prove either of those things.

I'm trying to help folks realize that any/all of the science they want to throw at this will inevitably come back to this question of timing. The scientific conclusion is wholly dependent on the ball temps, which is wholly dependent on timing.

 

[davearm]

Put another way:

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

 

[Jercules]

I'm a pretty big Pats fans myself, but I'm still amazed by what people think of deflategate:

A) They were, at some point, for X many games, deflating footballs to suit Brady (the texts show that beyond a shadow of a doubt).

B) They did not, for whatever reason (whether they stopped long ago, whether they got "tipped off") deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Simple as that.

We still have video of "the deflator" taking the bag of footballs into a bathroom before the start of the AFCCG.

The science that refutes deflation before the AFCCG relies heavily on some questionable (IMO) assumptions about the timing of the halftime measurements. The science only disproves deflation if the Colts balls are measured several minutes after the Patriots' balls, and not at the same time as the Patriots' balls.

What conclusion the science leads us to really hinges entirely on the measurement timing issue.

Yes, video of an equipment guy going to the bathroom before the start of the game is "evidence" however it is a lot less damning "evidence" than P Manning having PEDs shipped to his house

The science that refutes deflation does not really do anything you are trying to claim or disclaim. The science relies on physics (not open to interpretation) not assumptions.

Regarding the "questionable assumptions" that you appear to be making up out of thin air (admittedly I could be wrong) I hadn't really heard of that. Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? I have seen it stated as fact that the few Colts balls that were tested were done after NEs and they stopped testing due to time constraints. Did I miss a credible report claiming otherwise or is it purely wishful\hopeful thinking on your part?

The truly questionable assumption is the one pretending Walt Anderson didn't use the gauge he said he did since it is THAT assumption and only that assumption that prevents the entire episode from being exposed for the colt\raven\jet cry baby sore loser farce of an attempted setup it actually was.

I'll try and dumb it down for you while still keeping things accurate.

The assumption is that the Colts' balls initially registered 13.0 PSI, and the Pats balls initially registered 12.5 PSI, both measured at an ambient temperature of 71* inside the officials' locker room.

The ideal gas law tells us that those same footballs should register 11.8 (Colts) and 11.32 (Pats) at an ambient temperature of 48*. So, roughly the same delta of 0.5 PSI.

When those footballs are brought in from 48* outside, and placed in the 71* room, their PSIs will gradually increase from 11.8 and 11.32, returning to their initial values of 13.0 and 12.5. So it should now be obvious to see that whether the balls as tested at halftime of the AFCCG showed PSI reading that were at, above, or below what they should have been expected to be depends entirely upon how long they had been indoors, and how much their temperature had risen.

What was observed at halftime was a delta of 1.2 PSI between the Colts' balls and the Pats' balls. That is either entirely explainable by science, if sufficient time had elapsed between measurements to allow the Colts balls to warm up more than the Pats' balls had, or the allegations against the Pats are more or less proven if no time had elapsed between the times the balls were measured.

As I said, the whole thing revolves around the timing of the measurements. Hope this helps.

What would be helpful is for you to refrain from the childish insults "dumbing down ", stop the bloviating and simply provide a credible link that supports your wishful thinking?

Again I ask

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? I have seen it stated as fact that the few Colts balls that were tested were done after NEs and they stopped testing due to time constraints. Did I miss a credible report claiming otherwise or is it purely wishful\hopeful thinking on your part?

If the answer to the above question is no, then according to your very own words the science disproves deflation (supports Patriots assertions) and we can move on.

If the answer is yes then provide some (one?) credible link(s) that supports your assertion/hypothesis/wishful thinking with regard to the measurement timing.

There has been no definitive information at all about the timing of the halftime PSI measurements, that I'm aware of.The closest thing we have is that all the Colts balls were not measured because the officials ran out of time. That sheds no light at all on the critical issue of how much time (if any) elapsed between the measurement of Pats balls and the measurement of Colts balls.

Point being, I can no more prove that they were measured at the same time as I can prove that they were measured at different times, and neither can you (correct me if I'm wrong, of course). Which is fine, because I'm not trying to prove either of those things.

I'm trying to help folks realize that any/all of the science they want to throw at this will inevitably come back to this question of timing. The scientific conclusion is wholly dependent on the ball temps, which is wholly dependent on timing.

If a couple of minutes really makes such a critical difference, then what if the Colt's balls were stored in an area all first half that was slightly warmer than where the Patriots put their balls?

What if usage made a difference, since the Pats had such a massive time of possession advantage? (Even if it is just as simple as the field being colder than the sidelines, never mind all the clutching, throwing, catching...)

How can you pretend to make any meaningful comparisons, discussing 0.3 psi plus or minus, when you don't even have the exact psi numbers from the start of the game?

Caesar's horses are less dead than this one.

Go take all your scientific brilliance and do something useful guys, yeesh...

 

[davearm]

Dead horses tend spring back to life when a Pats fan tries to claim the Pats did not deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Maybe they did, and maybe they didn't.

 

[Jercules]

Dead horses tend spring back to life when a Pats fan tries to claim the Pats did not deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Maybe they did, and maybe they didn't.

That's why you don't listen to the fans, or the haters... you seek out the serious opinions, all of whom say there's no evidence balls were deflated for that game.

Don't know what to tell you bud, there's gotta be a better use of your time than this.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

To sum up,

1. paraphrasing aaron rodgers, qbs and staff deliberately mess with air pressure hoping the refs will let it slide. Its a loosely enforced rule without any real chain of custody.

2. Patriots scored essentially all their large point total in the second half when the balls were closely monitored.

3. Its been acknowledged that deflategate was proctored by a subset of owners who felt spygate lacked adequate penalties.

Classic kangaroo court. No justice, no peace.

 

[Tool]

And around and around we go! Wheeeee!

 

[satch]

From Phil Perry :

Blandino: "We measured PSI levels and recorded that information so right now we're evaluating the information."

From Dan Wetzel's piece, linked above.

"The NFL commissioner returned the favor on Tuesday when he announced the league did not keep any of the data on air pressure of footballs that officials were required to log and submit to the league office during the 2015 season."

Your NFL folks. Your NFL.

Hard to make sense of this. Goodell has done everything in his power to convince us that the Patriots cheated by deflating footballs. Presumably the data collected by spot checking footballs throughout this past season would prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt. This dats should be the smoking gun. Yet, instead of saying to all of us, "here's the proof", he claims the league did not keep the data? Not only does that make him appear incredibly dumb and irresponsible, but it flies in the face of Blandino's assertion that said data is currently being evaluated.I'm not claiming this proves anything one way or the other, but how can we not assume that the data collected supports the ideal gas law explanation? Obviously, if it supported the deflation theory Goodell would use this as evidence not just to us football fans, but also as evidence in the ongoing lawsuit or for potential future lawsuits.

I really don't see how this particular development can be viewed any other way.

 

[moleculo]

Goodell has destroyed evidence related to ongoing investigations before. Not sure why this is a surprise.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Ideal Gas Law noun, psychology

A scientific explanation quantifying the amount of hot air homers expend defending their team with legalistic minutia after its ballboys are caught discussing their conspiracy to cheat, and the owner agrees to surrender a first round pick as punishment for the wrongdoing.

 

[bostonfred]

Goodell has destroyed evidence related to ongoing investigations before. Not sure why this is a surprise.

The people who claimed the evidence against the Patriots in spy gate must have been so bad that they destroyed the evidence can rest easy knowing that it's just standard operating procedure. Of course, one key difference is that Goodell showed the spy gate tapes to the media before destroying them. The fact that he won't show evidence that could support his claims is a pretty strong indicator that it wouldn't support his claims. Given the way the investigation was handled last year it would be unusual for the NFL not to leak information that supports their case.

 

[satch]

After everything that has gone down, how can Goodell explain to a judge that the NFL did spot checks on footballs all season, but didn't think it was a good idea to keep this crucial data to share with everyone? Why on earth not? Meanwhile, Blandino says it's still being evaluated. Does this not create a credibility issue for Goodell?

 

[satch]

Ideal Gas Law noun, psychology

A scientific explanation quantifying the amount of hot air homers expend defending their team with legalistic minutia after its ballboys are caught discussing their conspiracy to cheat, and the owner agrees to surrender a first round pick as punishment for the wrongdoing.

I understand you want to take shots at Patriot fans, but what are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't deem it wise to keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

 

[bostonfred]

In all my years as a fan of any sport I've never seen an owner apologize to the fan base for accepting a penalty when the league has obviously been conducting a sham of an investigation.

While it may be true that kraft didn't appeal the punishment when he had a short window to do so, I don't know that he "agreed to surrender a first round pick" so much as he chose not to escalate a fight with the NFL when they had just shown they'd give his team the biggest penalty in NFL history for playing outside when it is chilly.

 

[Anarchy99]

Can someone refresh my memory? I thought only players could appeal a ruling or suspension. I thought team penalties could not be appealed.

The only option was if Kraft sued the league and such action was considered high treason and grounds for dismissal from the league per the league's owners agreements.

How was Kraft going to fight anything? I know he announced he would begrudgingly accept the penalties, but what could he have done if he wanted to fight them? Tell his team not to take the field? What recourse or options did he have?

 

[Run It Up]

The only way I think the Pats get their picks back is if the NFLs appeal is heard before the draft and they lose. Then I think the team can request the punishment to be revisited.

The bountygate suspensions and loss of picks were reduced/removed after the Saints players won their appeal - Sean Payton ofc was still suspended for a year.

The trial is on track for March, the draft is at the end of April. Doubt the ruling comes before the draft, I hope it does, I hope the league will reduce their punishment, I hope the media makes a huge deal out of the NFL losing. If the shield loses their appeal I think the Pats will at least get their 4th back but if they get it done before April I think it could possibly be better.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

One of the variables in football pressure that I did not see addressed in any of the studies or hypotheticals is that footballs may not be an ideally suited container upon which can be applied the Ideal Gas Law. The ideal gas law presumes a container of fixed volume through temperature changes. I do not know if a football has a fixed volume through temperature variations. How does leather, thread for stitching, laces and the bladder react to cold. One would presume there is some shrinkage, as most things shrink in cold, but is it uniform. Is it enough to change in any meaningful way the volume of a football? How about in statistically insignificant ways, but in ways which might have made the reported numbers just a little less suspicious, just a little? How does moisture effect the pliability or rigidity of the container and therefore its volume.

 

[davearm]

Dead horses tend spring back to life when a Pats fan tries to claim the Pats did not deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Maybe they did, and maybe they didn't.

That's why you don't listen to the fans, or the haters... you seek out the serious opinions, all of whom say there's no evidence balls were deflated for that game.

Don't know what to tell you bud, there's gotta be a better use of your time than this.

Only problem is, there is evidence. Sorry you're not able to look at the situation objectively, though it's understandable I suppose.

 

[Run It Up]

Only problem is, there is evidence. Sorry you're not able to look at the situation objectively, though it's understandable I suppose.

And that evidence being? Surely you aren't talking about cherry picked out of context text messages? Objectivity

@Ditkaless, that stuff was covered, even Wells/Exponent touched on - bladder volume is fixed by design, outside of faulty products it would remain fixed in all football conditions, the ball and laces do what you would expect them to in varying weather conditions.

 

[satch]

Dead horses tend spring back to life when a Pats fan tries to claim the Pats did not deflate footballs for the 2015 AFCCG.

Maybe they did, and maybe they didn't.

That's why you don't listen to the fans, or the haters... you seek out the serious opinions, all of whom say there's no evidence balls were deflated for that game.

Don't know what to tell you bud, there's gotta be a better use of your time than this.

Only problem is, there is evidence. Sorry you're not able to look at the situation objectively, though it's understandable I suppose.

What are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Put another way:

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Correct, no one other than you is trying to claim otherwise.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

The Patriots have stated it as fact and I am not aware of anyone claiming otherwise (other than you).

For example page 8 of the AE report

"The report also notes that halftime was scheduled to last 13 minutes and that the Colts balls were measured toward the very end of that window, when they ran out of time. We can therefore infer that the Colts balls were tested after being indoors for a period of a bit less than 15 minutes. The first of the Patriots balls was measured right at the beginning of halftime, followed by the others" https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/On-the-Wells-report.pdf

I suppose one could make the argument that the AE study "inferred" that the Colts balls were indoors while waiting to be tested rather than claiming it as fact. But the fact of the matter is the Wells report itself (page 5) already states that as fact.

"At the start of halftime, the game balls from each team were brought into the Officials Locker Room, each team’s balls in their own respective bags. During the halftime period, the air pressure of 11 Patriots footballs and four Colts footballs were measured. The measurements were taken by Clete Blakeman and Dyrol Prioleau"
https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

Here is a pretty good analysis from an MIT professor (I could easily provide more and you are welcome to submit counter analysis from some other source if you like, but I don't think it exists) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwxXsEltyas (@DW this video addresses some other factors you mentioned such as rain, wear and tear etc)

So counter to what you originally claimed (IE, the reason I took exception to your original post), there are no questionable assumptions with regard to when the Colts balls were tested and where they were kept prior to the testing.

I concede that some of the deflategate evidence may not be on the Patriots side, but the science is.

 

[satch]

Put another way:

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Correct, no one other than you is trying to claim otherwise.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

The Patriots have stated it as fact and I am not aware of anyone claiming otherwise (other than you).

For example page 8 of the AE report

"The report also notes that halftime was scheduled to last 13 minutes and that the Colts balls were measured toward the very end of that window, when they ran out of time. We can therefore infer that the Colts balls were tested after being indoors for a period of a bit less than 15 minutes. The first of the Patriots balls was measured right at the beginning of halftime, followed by the others" https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/On-the-Wells-report.pdf

I suppose one could make the argument that the AE study "inferred" that the Colts balls were indoors while waiting to be tested rather than claiming it as fact. But the fact of the matter is the Wells report itself (page 5) already states that as fact.

"At the start of halftime, the game balls from each team were brought into the Officials Locker Room, each teams balls in their own respective bags. During the halftime period, the air pressure of 11 Patriots footballs and four Colts footballs were measured. The measurements were taken by Clete Blakeman and Dyrol Prioleau"

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

Here is a pretty good analysis from an MIT professor (I could easily provide more and you are welcome to submit counter analysis from some other source if you like, but I don't think it exists) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwxXsEltyas (@DW this video addresses some other factors you mentioned such as rain, wear and tear etc)

So counter to what you originally claimed (IE, the reason I took exception to your original post), there are no questionable assumptions with regard to when the Colts balls were tested and where they were kept prior to the testing.

I concede that some of the deflategate evidence may not be on the Patriots side, but the science is.

The science may be on the Patriots side, but Goodell has Dorito Dink.

 

[JIslander]

Can you imagine if properly focused, what common good could have come from this un-relentless brain trust of the Boston strong? A class on Deflategate.

 

[bostonfred]

un-relentless brain trust

This is the name of my Alanis Morissette cover band.

 

[satch]

Can you imagine if properly focused, what common good could have come from this un-relentless brain trust of the Boston strong? A class on Deflategate.

What are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

 

[sho nuff]

Can you imagine if properly focused, what common good could have come from this un-relentless brain trust of the Boston strong? A class on Deflategate.

What are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

My guess he is did keep it and was full of crap when he says he didn't.

Why he didn't share it...who knows. Nor do I care if they share it or not.