Did you miss that part? So albeit we know checks were spotty, but in Packers games the refs were the sole judge. In Pats games, it was Brady.
Last edited by a moderator:
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter HobbesAB
- Start date
satch
Footballguy
No. I knew that would be the excuse. That's why I asked if it was being suggested that it's only cheating if you get caught?It's truly absurd that the people labeling Brady a cheater for using balls that allegedly were below specs (even though science indicates that the balls were likely within specs at kickoff), are the same people defending Rodgers who admittedly snuck balls past the refs that were above specs.
And Rodgers defenders justify his cheating by pointing at the incompetent refs for not checking the balls before the game. In other words, Rodgers knew he was cheating by using balls inflated over specs, but the refs didn't do their job and check the footballs so it's not cheating? Is that the standard? It's not cheating if the refs don't catch you?
At least I can admit the Pats broke a rule by altering the balls post inspection. Why is it so hard for Rodgers/Packers fans to admit they broke a rule by intentionally sneaking overinflated balls onto the playing field?
Last edited by a moderator:
Who cares?, Bradshaw admitted to doctoring balls AFTER the refs inspected them back in the day. This is no different than a pitcher scuffing a ball, a wr using stick em or a defensive ,lineman putting Vaseline on his jersey. It should have been a $50,000 fine and that would have been the end of it.
I could care less about the perception of guilt or innocence as that is pretty much determined by one's like or dislike of the Pats.
The penalty if nothing else is a joke.
I could care less about the perception of guilt or innocence as that is pretty much determined by one's like or dislike of the Pats.
The penalty if nothing else is a joke.
DropKick
Footballguy
“I like to push the limit to how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do and see if the officials take air out of it"
So Rodgers knows (by observation) that they're not checking the footballs (at least with a gauge) and he conspires with his equipment people to over inflate ball them to his liking. He then knowingly plays with a ball beyond what the rules allow....
So you absolve him of any wrong doing either because the refs should have caught it... Your opinion on what Rodgers admits to comes down to either morals or bias (let's call it homerism).
For the record, I think that Rodgers firmly believes that there is no advantage to an over-inflated ball and, in his mind, his actions are justified. He simply thinks the rule (maximum limit) is unnecessary. It is why he so candidly discussed the matter.
And, as I've said, I have no issue with Rodgers. I just think there is some hypocrisy in condemning Brady while putting the stamp of approval on Rodgers.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
On point 1, u might be confusing the random post inspection ball checks with the new game day procedure which dictates that all the balls are measured and recorded before each game using 2 officials AND the process is now supervised by a league security rep. The ability to sneak illegal game balls past the officials has now been eliminated. http://operations.nfl.com/the-game/gameday-behind-the-scenes/nfl-game-ball-procedures/
I agree that the effect of football psi on performance has been overblown by many, my primary issue concerns the hypocrites and the faux integrity wailing of those so eager to to tar & feather Brady while simultaneously doing gymnastics in an effort to ignore Rodgers & co documented cheating to gain an unfair advantage.
@ShoNuff - The Rodgers defense that "he was only joking" that they over inflated balls is demonstrably untrue since he admitted it AND later confirmed it
"On his weekly radio show with ESPN Milwaukee, Rodgers confirmed that he prefers the balls to be overinflated, and that he doesn’t think there should be a maximum air pressure. “It’s not an advantage when you have a football that’s inflated more than average air pressure. We’re not kicking these footballs,” Rodgers said, via Rob Demovsky of ESPN.com." http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/20/aaron-rodgers-likes-his-footballs-overinflated/
Apparently Rodgers (and his fans) honestly believes that using over inflated footballs that could travel faster and further than the other teams wasn't an illegal advantage
Last edited by a moderator:
You are correct, I was mistaken.And, you are correct (assuming the NFL & officials did their job correctly this time) that Rodgers did not have the use of balls that were overinflated, as he likes (although we don't know how often he actually got away with that previously).On point 1, u might be confusing the random post inspection ball checks with the new game day procedure which dictates that all the balls are measured and recorded before each game using 2 officials AND the process is now supervised by a league security rep. The ability to sneak illegal game balls past the officials has now been eliminated. http://operations.nfl.com/the-game/gameday-behind-the-scenes/nfl-game-ball-procedures/
I agree that the effect of football psi on performance has been overblown by many, my primary issue concerns the hypocrites and the faux integrity wailing of those so eager to to tar & feather Brady while simultaneously doing gymnastics in an effort to ignore Rodgers & co documented cheating to gain an unfair advantage.
@ShoNuff - The Rodgers defense that "he was only joking" that they over inflated balls is demonstrably untrue since he admitted it AND later confirmed it
"On his weekly radio show with ESPN Milwaukee, Rodgers confirmed that he prefers the balls to be overinflated, and that he doesnt think there should be a maximum air pressure. Its not an advantage when you have a football thats inflated more than average air pressure. Were not kicking these footballs, Rodgers said, via Rob Demovsky of ESPN.com." http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/20/aaron-rodgers-likes-his-footballs-overinflated/http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/20/aaron-rodgers-likes-his-footballs-overinflated/
Apparently Rodgers (and his fans) honestly believes that using over inflated footballs that could travel faster and further than the other teams wasn't an illegal advantage
I still contend that the PSI of the footballs provides a negligible advantage (whether over OR under), & the bigger impact on Rodgers was the loss of Nelson, just as the loss of his weapons had a bigger impact on Brady than footballs that were more inflated than he'd have liked.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Good lord, you guys are still arguing about this non story?
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
its one of those things that they will look back on and think '' what the hell was i arguing about...how idiotic ''
Last edited by a moderator:
John Bender
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Not really.
Pats fans are arguing and bringing up ridiculous things...the rest of us keep laughing at them.
It takes a special kind of Salty Hater who still ignores a federal judge who said there was no evidence for Deflategate.
“That’s the only game we’re talking about,” Judge Berman said. “The Wells report relates to only one game. Whether it happened before, who knows? . . . There is no finding in this case that there was anything done by Mr. Brady [in the AFC Championship Game].”
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/12/for-now-judge-berman-seems-more-interested-in-the-facts-than-the-law/
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Pats fans still crying. 
I'm actually laughing at how Peyton Trent-Dilfered his way to another ring. And how Peyton fans think this re-validates the 1a vs 1b theory of how good Brady/Manning are.Pats fans still crying.
Yes, a 77 vs 95 career SB rating is so close, no one can tell them apart!
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/super-bowl/
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/super-bowl/
Last edited by a moderator:
DropKick
Footballguy
Completely deflated? Too obvious, jamoke. That's now how Rodgers sneaks them past officials. You have to experiment with what you can get away with!
Peter King shows it's ok to admit you were wrong.
http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/21/roger-goodell-new-england-patriots-nfl-draft-picks-combine-preview
http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/21/roger-goodell-new-england-patriots-nfl-draft-picks-combine-preview
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
pats3in4
Footballguy
Heh. This is the same Roger Goodell who is doubling down on Brady's suspension, forcing the issue to the appeals court. Pats are not seeing that pick back. Would love to be wrong, though.
thatguy
Footballguy
I'm pretty sure Brady's participation, or lack thereof (i.e. the Federal court process) is not connected to the team punishment. Brady got off because the evidence that he was aware of wrong doing was lacking; not because there was no evidence of wrong doing at any level in the organization. Hence the difference between the team penalty, fine and loss of draft pick, which Kraft agreed to, and the individual penalty involving Brady's role if any in said wrong doing.
Run It Up
Footballguy
The team participating in a ball deflation scheme that the league also has no evidence that existed or that any misdeed was committed.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Will apparently be quite awhile before we know how the appeals court rules, but from the sound of things Brady's lawyers got slapped around pretty hard.
Run It Up
Footballguy
They both got the business today.
Was very similar to the opening arguments in Berman's court. Very heavily criticized both sides.
Called the league draconian, pointed out how the league compared it to PEDs, equipment violations and conduct detrimental while not proving any of those things and also imposing a stiffer penalty than any of those things. Then criticized Brady for destroying his phone. One of the three judges said that the evidence was compelling if not overwhelming.
When it gets down to the actual case Kessler will be able to argue the evidence again and the NFL will again say they can do whatever they want.
Last edited by a moderator:
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Sounds like one of the judges commented that the evidence of ball tampering was "compelling, if not overwhelming." Therein lies the problem in this case, as people will have a completely different perspective and some will say overwhelming while others will say non-existent.
The courter reporter that has been Tweeting on the case said two of the three judges seemed to favor the NFL but pointed out that might not mean anything.
The courter reporter that has been Tweeting on the case said two of the three judges seemed to favor the NFL but pointed out that might not mean anything.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Either way you look at it right now, they are arguing over Berman's ruling. Both sides will have ample opportunity to prove their position, Kessler did it already having only to prove one way how the NFL didn't have the authority to do what they did, and instead proved it five ways. The leagues position has never changed, they can and will do whatever they want.
The appeal is about whether Berman was right in saying the NFL/Goodell didn't have the right to do what they did, the way they did it.
The appeal is about whether Berman was right in saying the NFL/Goodell didn't have the right to do what they did, the way they did it.
Last edited by a moderator:
Run It Up
Footballguy
The opening statement for the appeal:
Spend five minutes outside your echo chamber, the super majority of people I've read or heard, even the ones who openly admit they hate the Pats and think they are cheaters know nothing happened, the NFL ####ed up and there is no amount of backpedaling that doesn't cost them some of their power that they are desperately trying to hold on to.
The NFL jumped the gun, Goodell didn't have control of his goons and they ####ed him, who in turn ####ed the Pats.
Last edited by a moderator:
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The league admitted to not having any direct evidence linking Brady to anything that happened in the AFCCG. That's one thing that I would have driven home until the cows came home at any hearing on the matter if I were representing Brady or the NFLPA. What the Patriots may have done in any other game is irrelevant. The league had to show that something abnormal happened to the footballs on that one particular day, not what could have happened that day. Anything that happened before then or after then doesn't matter, yet all the league has to hang its hat on is 1) texts from months and months earlier, 2) a busted cell phone from months and months after, and 3) an Exponent report that very few people believe is accurate with many actually arguing against the only scientific findings the league presented.
Even if we say Brady did something, the punishment doesn't fit the crime (which is what Brady's attorneys are arguing). It's like gicing someone 40 years to life for jaywalking.
A head bob would be jay-walking. Conspiracy to tamper with the equipment would closer to theft.
Mookie
Footballguy
No it's not. It's a 4 game suspension for being complicit in a scheme to deflate footballs, lying about it, and interfering with the league's investigation. The penalty fits the crime.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Probably too late in the season for Kraft to invite the two hostile judges out to the Hamptons. COLD
Anarchy99
Footballguy
By any rules, rule books, operating manuals, or coaches and team provisional statements that have been circulated or given to teams and players, deflating footballs would be defined as an equipment violation. I am not pulling that out of thin air. No player or team has ever been suspended or lost draft picks for an equipment violation in the history of the NFL.
Even with we assume that people lied about it and somehow interfered with the league's investigation (both of which are subjective), no player has ever been suspended for impeding an investigation and only has been fined. The league is taking things that have only met with fines and trying to issue a suspension and dock draft picks.
We already know that many other teams and owners wanted a pound of flesh from Spygate, and that is why NE and Brady got dinged for Deflategate. They wanted additional pay back for past transgressions.
The league added in a lot of fluffy language to sell their propaganda that it was a conspiracy, that it filed the integrity of the game, that there was a master cover up, that Brady conspired a scheme to pay off the locker room attendants with autographed merchandise, etc. If people want to buy into the NFL's narrative, I certainly can't stop them.
Sure, I follow the Pats, but I am not a blind homer in this situation. If the same thing was going on involving the Jets, the Steelers, the Broncos, etc. I would be saying the same exact thing. Yes, the Patriots have done plenty over the years to skirt, bend, and potentially break the rules or the spirit of the rules. Of all the things to go to the mat over involving the Patriots, this was not the right one.
There are plenty of people out there saying the league overstepped their bounds, they proved close to nothing, their science was junk, and that the Patriots should have their draft picks reinstated and Brady should walk. Those opinions have come from neutral reporters, attorneys, scientists, financial reporters, and people that have nothing to do with the Patriots at all.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
All 3 of the judges today explicitly rejected the claim that the ball falls under the Uniform and Equipment rules noting that all of the equipment rules relate specifically to equipment worn by players.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
It still doesn't change the fact that there is nothing in the rules that hints at a suspension for altering a football. If I remember correctly, the only section of any code or operations manual indicates a fine of $25,000 as the spelled out punishment. I believe there is language that there could be an additional penalty, but that is not defined.
As was discussed today in court, a judge asked if Brady could have been suspended for a year, and I believe the argument focused on if that's what the commissioner felt appropriate, then that should have been allowed. They did say that that would have been severe, but the league would argue that it should be allowed if that was the punishment.
We are starting to circle back to things that were debated at length for over a year, so no need to rehash them all over again. Today's hearing was on process, One of the biggest issues for any of the league's rules is that the commissioner wants the right to override whatever rules or procedures they have or have collectively bargained and come up with things like conduct detrimental or imputing the integrity of the game to circumvent everything else they have for rules.
As was discussed today in court, a judge asked if Brady could have been suspended for a year, and I believe the argument focused on if that's what the commissioner felt appropriate, then that should have been allowed. They did say that that would have been severe, but the league would argue that it should be allowed if that was the punishment.
We are starting to circle back to things that were debated at length for over a year, so no need to rehash them all over again. Today's hearing was on process, One of the biggest issues for any of the league's rules is that the commissioner wants the right to override whatever rules or procedures they have or have collectively bargained and come up with things like conduct detrimental or imputing the integrity of the game to circumvent everything else they have for rules.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Link?
I had been following and hadn't heard or seen this at all.
Given time this case might actually be interesting, Judge Chin said the evidence was compelling - perhaps even overwhelmingly, Judge Katzmann opened the hearing by asking the NFL how they can pursue the same punishment with the new factual findings since the Well's Report.
Its not gonna be hard to convince the two who weren't immediately swayed, and either way its gonna come down to whether Judge Berman did his job or not.
I feel way more confident about the appeal than I did the original trial.
Last edited by a moderator:
DropKick
Footballguy
What does common sense have to do with anything? If you just listen to other people or read poorly constructed news reports/claims or even go into this with a preconceived like or hatred of the organization, you're probably going to believe what you want to believe.
I've run the gamut on my feelings in the matter and have gone from "clearly guilty" to no real evidence. Essentially, the NFL did an impromptu set of measurements and tried to interpret the PSI of the NE balls based on the Colt's balls. Problems with this control group of Colt's balls? No pre-game measurements were recorded. Any balls, be they 13.1, 13.2 or 13.3 were left "as is" since they were within the acceptable range. No one knows the exact pressure. Only four were measured. The measurements on one of the four were transcribed. At least that is the assumption, It could have been recorded incorrectly as it was the highest recorded measurement. The Colt's balls were measured toward the end of half-time so they had time to adjust to room temperature. There is also a difference between wet and dry balls; wet balls increase in volume and subsequently drop in pressure. They also adjust to temperature changes more slowly. The Colt's balls were kept in a plastic bag on the field. The Patriots were not... The Pats balls were in use most of the 2nd quarter... Colts balls were bagged...
Do you trust the measurement process? For some reasons the guys switched gauges half way through the process. Incidentally the gauges read differently and no one knows which gauges were used pre-game. This is the first time any such half-time measures were taken. Any fumbling and bumbling?
Watch the video from the MIT guy. Interesting enough but it also shows actual measurements before a 2013 game... It raises question marks..
Bottom line: far too many variables for me to want to convict somebody.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
http://www.bostonglobe.com/2016/03/03/tom-brady-deflategate-appeal/TnrgVNVYDpa6n4VtBBJr2I/story.html
Chin took issue with Kessler’s argument that the Uniform and Equipment Policy applies to game balls and should have constituted only a fine for Brady. Chin said that the policy cited applies only to equipment worn by a player, not to the actual footballs.
Even Katzmann took issue with Kessler’s contention that the only appropriate punishment would have been a fine.
“Your challenge is to find where in the CBA does it say if you tamper with game balls and then obstruct, where does it say the only punishment is a fine?” Katzmann said.
Koya
Footballguy
All I can say is,
So, one MORE championship nullified in the annuls of history as Doc Cheaty clearly had no business playing the beginning of his folly of a "Super Bowl" season. I mean, Pats fans can pretend all they want in their little circles that the entirety of their "success" has been rendered moot, not once, but multiple times.
Such a shame that a potential historic dynasty is, instead, the poster child of false championships and a legacy of not being able to win straight up (I mean, MAYBE and even probably they could have, but they didn't. They chose to cheat. And got caught. And cheated again. And got caught. And ch.... god, I'd hate to be a Pats fan. You have to show such an exterior of bravado and "we earned it and are a dynasty", then someplace in your heart you KNOW that the entire rest of the world essentially looks at you as the undeserving cheaters you are.
Basically, the Pats are the NFL's Nixon. Except Nixon voters were smart enough to ditch his lying cheating ship and pretend they never were fans in the first place. Pats fans double down on the embrace of cheating as if it's the only thing the franchise really, in the long term, represents.
Great drama, not to mention an utterly tragic comedy.
For selfish reasons admittedly, I am damn glad to be part of the audience laughing AT the diluted Pats fan that still pretends as if their legacy means anything (other than winning by cheating. and getting caught. repeatedly). It would be absolutely horrendous to have to root for this franchise.
And this is coming from a Mets and Islanders fan.
So, one MORE championship nullified in the annuls of history as Doc Cheaty clearly had no business playing the beginning of his folly of a "Super Bowl" season. I mean, Pats fans can pretend all they want in their little circles that the entirety of their "success" has been rendered moot, not once, but multiple times.
Such a shame that a potential historic dynasty is, instead, the poster child of false championships and a legacy of not being able to win straight up (I mean, MAYBE and even probably they could have, but they didn't. They chose to cheat. And got caught. And cheated again. And got caught. And ch.... god, I'd hate to be a Pats fan. You have to show such an exterior of bravado and "we earned it and are a dynasty", then someplace in your heart you KNOW that the entire rest of the world essentially looks at you as the undeserving cheaters you are.
Basically, the Pats are the NFL's Nixon. Except Nixon voters were smart enough to ditch his lying cheating ship and pretend they never were fans in the first place. Pats fans double down on the embrace of cheating as if it's the only thing the franchise really, in the long term, represents.
Great drama, not to mention an utterly tragic comedy.
For selfish reasons admittedly, I am damn glad to be part of the audience laughing AT the diluted Pats fan that still pretends as if their legacy means anything (other than winning by cheating. and getting caught. repeatedly). It would be absolutely horrendous to have to root for this franchise.
And this is coming from a Mets and Islanders fan.
Last edited by a moderator:
Run It Up
Footballguy
For those actually interested in this, the best breakdown of today I've seen is actually on SI
Covers both sides, objectively.
Covers both sides, objectively.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I have never been big on trying to read the tea leaves on how judges may vote based upon their questioning during oral argument. Sure, some seek to buttress the side towards which they are leaning (presuming, dangerously, that they have not already set their minds after reading the briefs and researching the law), but others do so in the hope of finding new and cogent reasons to buttress arguments against those points. These latter types ask the questions not completely for their own benefit, but because they want jurists of opposed points of view to hear potentially new justifications which may sway them.
It is difficult to not place significance on the questioning, and I am guilty of speculating, but I remind myself that speculation is all it is.
Me, I think that no matter the ruling the saga will continue. Either there will be a request to appeal upward, again, or the matter will be remanded back to the lower court with direction for new determinations subject to some direction. if that happens new appeals of any ruling seem likely.
Of one thing I am sure, the court of public opinion is more or less fixed on the matter at this time.
It is difficult to not place significance on the questioning, and I am guilty of speculating, but I remind myself that speculation is all it is.
Me, I think that no matter the ruling the saga will continue. Either there will be a request to appeal upward, again, or the matter will be remanded back to the lower court with direction for new determinations subject to some direction. if that happens new appeals of any ruling seem likely.
Of one thing I am sure, the court of public opinion is more or less fixed on the matter at this time.
Bossman
Footballguy
Seems the Patriots are voicing their frustration.
They really spilled their guts here:
http://wellsreportcontext.com/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=nfl
They really spilled their guts here:
http://wellsreportcontext.com/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=nfl
