Patriots being investigated after Colts game (4 Viewers)

[Ditkaless Wonders]

How does destroying his phone prevent the truth from coming out lol. Are you saying there were additional unspeculated parties involved here that only Brady communicated with?

At the end of the day the NFL created the scenario that Brady was giving enducements thru Jastremski to McNally to deflate balls - based off one cherry picked text. At what point in this scenario are Brady's communications necessary if you have both McNally and Jastremski's?

We've plowed this ground before.  Possible, entirely, that McNally or Jastremski had more than one phone, or may have texted Brady using somebody else's phone, wife's, friends, other employees. Just yesterday my sister called me on my Father's phone and my wife texted me using our daughter's phone.  Also possible Brady Texted somebody close to either instructing alternative routes of contact.

Now please remember, before you say this is all speculation, that you asked me to speculate.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I think this is the disconnect in this thread.

No doubt.

 

[Pickle Rody]

By the time Brady and his crack team of litigators felt it prudent to provide printed copies of all relevant texting data requested to the league......it was too little, too late. 

 

[Run It Up]

By the time Brady and his crack team of litigators felt it prudent to provide printed copies of all relevant texting data requested to the league......it was too little, too late. 

It was at the appeal, where Goodell said days earlier that he was willing to accept new information including Bradys phone records... at the appeal.

 

[Pickle Rody]

It was at the appeal, where Goodell said days earlier that he was willing to accept new information including Bradys phone records... at the appeal.

Oh well, I guess Goodell changed his mind. Tough break. Maybe Brady should have been more compliant prior to getting to that point?

 

[BassNBrew]

If you ain't cheating', you ain't tryin'.

That said, when you're caught, accept your punishment.

 

[Jercules]

No, the system is appropriate because it's an NFL system, that the NFL AND THE NFLPA decided this  system would handle this type of situation.  If the NFL decided to use an NBA or MLB policy, that would not be appropriate.

Appropriate doesn't mean fair, righteous, just, etc.  You seem to be arguing that it wasn't fair; that's a different point & one many might agree with; but it was the appropriate process to use, as it is what the CBA, which (NE players voted for) dictates.

I'm arguing the same thing any Pats fan is arguing on here, that this whole thing is a naked sham. Your angle is to create a strawman whereby criticism of the situation = a suggestion the process used was incorrect (which is what you really mean with "inappropriate"), which is obtusely pedantic, and a waste of everyone's time. Roger Goodell clearly railroaded the New England Patriots, whether or not he gamed the system without technically breaking any rules is not something anyone cares about.

Brady never talked to McNally before or after. He talked to Jastremski, McNally's boss more or less. 

It amazes me what people still don't know about this but talk at great lengths about.

I'm also curious what handing over the phone does here. TThey have McNally and Jastremski's phone records. Brady is not obligated to hand over his phone as a NFLPA rep. Had he not destroyed his phone and simply didn't hand it over the end result is the same. Later when the league back stepped and said they only wanted specific things and that Brady could just give them those he did just that at the appeal and the league literally wouldn't accept them.

The whole "didn't cooperate" thing is so cheap, IMO. If you don't cooperate 100% with an investigation, no matter what they ask of you, they say you were uncooperative. It's funny that people here have no problem with Goodell making himself the arbitrator ("that's what the NFLPA agreed to!"), but Brady destroying his phone is some sort of capital crime (and the fact that Goodell leaked it to the media is still, in absolutely no way, proof that he was out to get the Patriots).

Oh well. We'll see what Garoppolo can do: Best case scenario, he performs well, and nets us the kind of haul QBs of the future seem to be going for these days. It should be pretty good even after Goodell steals whatever he can.

 

[Run It Up]

"Arbitrator"

 

[Bayhawks]

I'm arguing the same thing any Pats fan is arguing on here, that this whole thing is a naked sham. Your angle is to create a strawman whereby criticism of the situation = a suggestion the process used was incorrect (which is what you really mean with "inappropriate"), which is obtusely pedantic, and a waste of everyone's time. Roger Goodell clearly railroaded the New England Patriots, whether or not he gamed the system without technically breaking any rules is not something anyone cares about.

The whole "didn't cooperate" thing is so cheap, IMO. If you don't cooperate 100% with an investigation, no matter what they ask of you, they say you were uncooperative. It's funny that people here have no problem with Goodell making himself the arbitrator ("that's what the NFLPA agreed to!"), but Brady destroying his phone is some sort of capital crime (and the fact that Goodell leaked it to the media is still, in absolutely no way, proof that he was out to get the Patriots).

You really are delusional.  Feel free to review any of my posts from the beginning of my participation in this thread.  I've maintained from the start that 4 games was too much, that even if any deflation happened, it's not a big deal (negligible impact on the outcome of the game), that NE isn't "dirty," they just push the rule book as much as they can, that no matter what the outcome, their SB wins & Bradys personal stats aren't de-valued (no asterisks), & that the NFLs pursuit of this thing is a power-play, rather than any real belief that Brady is guilty.  Despite all that, because I'm able to say that the NFL followed the appropriate process for this situation (while acknowledging the process is unfair), that means I'm creating a strawman?

For the last time; the NFL followed the appropriate process, eve if its inherently unfair.  The NFL might have been out to get NE, but Goodell giving the discipline & hearing the appeal IS NOT proof of that.

 

[Jercules]

You really are delusional.  Feel free to review any of my posts from the beginning of my participation in this thread.  I've maintained from the start that 4 games was too much, that even if any deflation happened, it's not a big deal (negligible impact on the outcome of the game), that NE isn't "dirty," they just push the rule book as much as they can, that no matter what the outcome, their SB wins & Bradys personal stats aren't de-valued (no asterisks), & that the NFLs pursuit of this thing is a power-play, rather than any real belief that Brady is guilty.  Despite all that, because I'm able to say that the NFL followed the appropriate process for this situation (while acknowledging the process is unfair), that means I'm creating a strawman?

For the last time; the NFL followed the appropriate process, eve if its inherently unfair.  The NFL might have been out to get NE, but Goodell giving the discipline & hearing the appeal IS NOT proof of that.

Blah blah blah... the bolded is all you should have written. Goodell gets a minion to dole out a patently absurd punishment so he can serve as arbitrator to snuff out the inevitable appeal, and in your completely unbiased, serious analysis, that is not evidence they were out to get NE. Always a pleasure dude.

 

[Bayhawks]

Blah blah blah... the bolded is all you should have written. Goodell gets a minion to dole out a patently absurd punishment so he can serve as arbitrator to snuff out the inevitable appeal, and in your completely unbiased, serious analysis, that is not evidence they were out to get NE. Always a pleasure dude.

When the police arrested Aaron Hernandez, were they "out to get him?" Because they were following the process that must be followed, just as the NFL did.  

You want to talk about other things as proof of the NFL's "vendetta" against the Pats, go for it; but this isn't it.

 

[Franknbeans]

Gotta love Pats fans.  The problem is nevah with their team.

 

[Tool]

Gotta love Pats fans.  The problem is nevah with their team.

Gotta love Pats haters. Problem is always with the Pats.

 

[Andrew74]

The Pats never stop. 

Cheating

 

[Boston]

For the last time; the NFL followed the appropriate process, eve if its inherently unfair.  The NFL might have been out to get NE, but Goodell giving the discipline & hearing the appeal IS NOT proof of that.

As you state it was a combo of both...I do believe they were out to get the Pats and the Pats gave them the opening...in their zeal to get them they gave them an absurd punishment and this whole mess turned from a foolish equipment issue to something much larger...Goodell solidifying his power over the players...

In a lot of ways my biggest issue with this whole thing and the thing that I find the most vendettaesque is this rule that the Pats could not trade up past their original draft position...you stripped them of their picks so why should the NFL care what they do with the rest of them...IMO the fact they even thought of this shows they were gunning for them and they were going scorched earth...

 

[Bayhawks]

As you state it was a combo of both...I do believe they were out to get the Pats and the Pats gave them the opening...in their zeal to get them they gave them an absurd punishment and this whole mess turned from a foolish equipment issue to something much larger...Goodell solidifying his power over the players...

In a lot of ways my biggest issue with this whole thing and the thing that I find the most vendettaesque is this rule that the Pats could not trade up past their original draft position...you stripped them of their picks so why should the NFL care what they do with the rest of them...IMO the fact they even thought of this shows they were gunning for them and they were going scorched earth...

That's absolutely, IMO, "proof" that the NFL was "out to get" NE.

Is KC not allowed to trade for a 3rd round pick today, since the NFL stripped them of theirs for "tampering" when they went after Maclin?

 

[moleculo]

"Arbitrator"

There should be a Lombardi in the Broncos floaty-desk.

 

[Franknbeans]

Gotta love Pats haters. Problem is always with the Pats.

I'm more of a cheater hater

 

[Run It Up]

I'm more of a cheater hater

We both know thats not true.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

I'm more of a cheater hater

Same here. This is especially true when the cheater is winning. Wasn't it someone from the Browns that got busted for texting down to the sideline from the booth? (Why is it against the rules to text, if you can just call?) In that case, I still don't like them for cheating, but it's the Browns... No big deal.

 

[Tool]

I'm more of a cheater hater

ok bud.

 

[Run It Up]

NFLPA adds Theodore Olson to their legal team.

62 appearances before the supreme court.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

NFLPA adds Theodore Olson to their legal team.

62 appearances before the supreme court.

I have a feeling he'll be stuck on that number for a while.

 

[Bayhawks]

NFLPA adds Theodore Olson to their legal team.

62 appearances before the supreme court.

IF the SC were to agree to hear an appeal, I would think that's good for the NFLPA/Brady.  To me, that would suggest that they see something important, with regards to federal law.  I would think its unlikely that they would hear the case just to affirm the 2nd court.

I still think its unlikely the SC hears an appeal, though.

 

[Run It Up]

I agree, I think they will petition the second circuit and from there I think there might be a path to the SCOTUS but its probably the least likely outcome.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

IF the SC were to agree to hear an appeal, I would think that's good for the NFLPA/Brady.  To me, that would suggest that they see something important, with regards to federal law.  I would think its unlikely that they would hear the case just to affirm the 2nd court.

I still think its unlikely the SC hears an appeal, though.

The thing is by the time it got to the Supreme Court, Brady may no longer have standing as the case would be moot (since he'd have already served his suspension. I guess the could try and get a TRO first allowing Brady to play but that's a pretty difficult standard that likely doesn't apply in this matter.

 

[Run It Up]

The thing is by the time it got to the Supreme Court, Brady may no longer have standing as the case would be moot (since he'd have already served his suspension. I guess the could try and get a TRO first allowing Brady to play but that's a pretty difficult standard that likely doesn't apply in this matter.

That would be unfortunate for Brady but its not the only fight here. Its also likely they could get a stay on the suspension since its impossible to get those games back.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

That would be unfortunate for Brady but its not the only fight here. Its also likely they could get a stay on the suspension since its impossible to get those games back.

That's not the standard for getting the TRO. They need to show irreparable harm and a likelihood they would win the appeal. I guess it's possible to argue that missing the games is "irreparable harm" but that's a stretch.

Anyway bringing up all of these arguments is useless here. We'll see what happens. No one really knows how this will play out. 

 

[Anarchy99]

From what I have seen or read, Brady's best shot is to request a review by the entire Second Court of Appeals. Apparently, the fact that they reversed a decision, that he lost 2-1, and that the Chief Judge in the Appeals Court was the dissenting vote all helps Brady. 

Still not a great chance, but supposedly a much greater chance than the 1% number in terms of case reviews that they typically allow. 

It sounded like if Brady is granted a full review, he would get a reprieve until the case was reviewed and the vote was taken, which likely would mean he could play the entire season again. 

Who knows though, as the appeal decision came back in near record time when it often takes a year to have a decision rendered. 

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

The thing is by the time it got to the Supreme Court, Brady may no longer have standing as the case would be moot (since he'd have already served his suspension. I guess the could try and get a TRO first allowing Brady to play but that's a pretty difficult standard that likely doesn't apply in this matter.




 

I'm not sure it would be moot. His suspension is without pay. He can't get the games back, but he can get the game checks back.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I'm not sure it would be moot. His suspension is without pay. He can't get the games back, but he can get the game checks back.

That's a fair point. I'd imagine may be right.

 

[Dezbelief]

4 game checks for Brady this year equals $250,000 combined. 

 

[jonessed]

I can't imagine he would appeal.  That would be another Brady cheating news cycle when he files, one when the case Is heard, and possibly another one when he loses.  Does he really want this to continue to be in the headlines for another year?

 

[Willie Neslon]

Are there any patriot fans who believe Brady may have been guilty?  Every Patriot fan I ask believes with all their heart the guy did absolutely nothing wrong.  Everyone else seems to think otherwise. I think getting ball pressure to your liking, even it's below allowable levels, isn't a big deal.  That being said it's completely obvious to me Brady had a hand in making sure the balls were deflated and because of the way he chose to stonewall the investigation and take the fight to the courts that he deserves the maximum punishment the league is allowed to levy.  He's the person who turned what should have been a small deal that would have been mostly forgotten by this point into a massive deal.

 

[Run It Up]

I can't imagine he would appeal.  That would be another Brady cheating news cycle when he files, one when the case Is heard, and possibly another one when he loses.  Does he really want this to continue to be in the headlines for another year?

He spent two offseasons including one following Berman's decision to overturn the suspension being called a cheater. Hes been adamant from the beginning that he did nothing wrong.

Why do you think being in the public eye now would mean anything to him? Hes one of the most criticized NFL figures, even before this garbage. When they introduced all the prior MVPs last year during the superbowl and Brady was booed, he texted Edelman after the ceremony and Edelman showed the text to seem people at barstool, plainly:  “‘Everyone ####### hates us. Let’s win it all next year.‘”

Its fuel

 

[Jercules]

Are there any patriot fans who believe Brady may have been guilty?  Every Patriot fan I ask believes with all their heart the guy did absolutely nothing wrong.  Everyone else seems to think otherwise. I think getting ball pressure to your liking, even it's below allowable levels, isn't a big deal.  That being said it's completely obvious to me Brady had a hand in making sure the balls were deflated and because of the way he chose to stonewall the investigation and take the fight to the courts that he deserves the maximum punishment the league is allowed to levy.  He's the person who turned what should have been a small deal that would have been mostly forgotten by this point into a massive deal.

I don't see why you say he stonewalled the investigation. Other than texts that show McNally was, at one point or another deflating footballs, there's also zero evidence that any of this ever happened.

That being said, those texts alone prove there was a concerted effort between Jastremski and McNally (at some point).... After the Jets game, in which some of the balls had been inflated by the refs up to 16 psi, Brady made a comment about McNally: "Isn't it his job to make sure this doesn't happen?" (Paraphrasing). You could take that any number of ways. Brady figures it's McNally's job to remind the refs how he likes the balls? Brady has intimate knowledge of J and M's shenanigans, and is being a little cryptic about it (which is generally how people talk when they know they're talking about something seedy)? Or, Brady is completely ignorant, and doesn't even realize McNally is just a ball boy? For Jastremski, you have to think giving your boss "plausible deniability" with something like this is important... perhaps Brady was allowed to be willfully blind... "You like 'em soft, we'll make sure they're soft champ..."

I was always interested in that text between Brady and Jastremski where Brady tells him "you did nothing wrong." (It's important to remember there's zero proof any deflating happened for the AFCCG, and so for that game Jastremski and McNally perhaps didn't do anything wrong.). He says it to reassure him: does he just mean "hey, you're not in trouble because this time you did nothing wrong"? Or again, maybe Brady is just totally blind/ignorant/naive... it was a pretty robust rumour around the league that NE balls boys were doing this, you have to think Brady would at least have an inkling, then again he's a pampered superstar QB, and getting to be ignorant of whatever cheeky crap your underlings do to help your performance is part of the pampering.

In the end, you're absolutely right, deflated footballs are meaningless, a fact that seems to be getting lost in all this. 

 

[stbugs]

"Arbitrator"

You wont see Panthers' fans (or even dare I say Seahawks' fans) like me cheering. Sucks knowing one of Arizona's hard games is basically an easy one now without Brady. That could end up being a big difference in the standings come playoff time.

 

[Jercules]

There should be a Lombardi in the Broncos floaty-desk.

Ware AND Ward AND Talib AND Manning AND Sanders... Are we sure you guys weren't cooking the books again? (http://yourteamcheats.com/DEN) ... I mean, reputation and all

 

[Bayhawks]

He spent two offseasons including one following Berman's decision to overturn the suspension being called a cheater. Hes been adamant from the beginning that he did nothing wrong.

Why do you think being in the public eye now would mean anything to him? Hes one of the most criticized NFL figures, even before this garbage. When they introduced all the prior MVPs last year during the superbowl and Brady was booed, he texted Edelman after the ceremony and Edelman showed the text to seem people at barstool, plainly:  “‘Everyone ####### hates us. Let’s win it all next year.‘”

Its fuel

No reason for him not to keep fighting it; if he loses an appeal, then he's in the exact same situation as he would be if he did give up.  I'd he wins the appeal, he's vindicated (although some people will continue to label him/NE a cheater).  What's more, if he wins an appeal, its a huge win for the NFLPA, & a huge blow to the power wielded by Goodell & the NFL.  I don't see the downsid (except $$$, & I don't see him worrying a/b that) to him continuing the fight, and there is a lot of upside if he wins.

 

[Pots]

Ware AND Ward AND Talib AND Manning AND Sanders... Are we sure you guys weren't cooking the books again? (http://yourteamcheats.com/DEN) ... I mean, reputation and all

I find it hilarious that you keep linking that Pats-Fan-Made Website to argue anything. 

 

[Willie Neslon]

I don't see why you say he stonewalled the investigation. Other than texts that show McNally was, at one point or another deflating footballs, there's also zero evidence that any of this ever happened.

That being said, those texts alone prove there was a concerted effort between Jastremski and McNally (at some point).... After the Jets game, in which some of the balls had been inflated by the refs up to 16 psi, Brady made a comment about McNally: "Isn't it his job to make sure this doesn't happen?" (Paraphrasing). You could take that any number of ways. Brady figures it's McNally's job to remind the refs how he likes the balls? Brady has intimate knowledge of J and M's shenanigans, and is being a little cryptic about it (which is generally how people talk when they know they're talking about something seedy)? Or, Brady is completely ignorant, and doesn't even realize McNally is just a ball boy? For Jastremski, you have to think giving your boss "plausible deniability" with something like this is important... perhaps Brady was allowed to be willfully blind... "You like 'em soft, we'll make sure they're soft champ..."

I was always interested in that text between Brady and Jastremski where Brady tells him "you did nothing wrong." (It's important to remember there's zero proof any deflating happened for the AFCCG, and so for that game Jastremski and McNally perhaps didn't do anything wrong.). He says it to reassure him: does he just mean "hey, you're not in trouble because this time you did nothing wrong"? Or again, maybe Brady is just totally blind/ignorant/naive... it was a pretty robust rumour around the league that NE balls boys were doing this, you have to think Brady would at least have an inkling, then again he's a pampered superstar QB, and getting to be ignorant of whatever cheeky crap your underlings do to help your performance is part of the pampering.

In the end, you're absolutely right, deflated footballs are meaningless, a fact that seems to be getting lost in all this. 

So you're saying you're a Pats fan.

 

[Jercules]

So you're saying you're a Pats fan.

I gave you a pretty in depth, thorough analysis of the possibilities as someone who's taken the time to read the Wells Report. I also clearly concede that the team was, and one point or another, deflating footballs. I thought your initial post was a serious attempt at cutting through the BS on this, was I mistaken? 

 

[Jercules]

I find it hilarious that you keep linking that Pats-Fan-Made Website to argue anything. 

If you can show me another inventory of NFL cheating incidents that was collected by someone you approve of, have at 'er. Rest assured, whether a Pats fan is telling it to you or not, the Broncos cheated the salary cap for BOTH of their late '90's SBs. yourteamcheats.com.... or whatever other link you feel like contributing.

 

[Willie Neslon]

I gave you a pretty in depth, thorough analysis of the possibilities as someone who's taken the time to read the Wells Report. I also clearly concede that the team was, and one point or another, deflating footballs. I thought your initial post was a serious attempt at cutting through the BS on this, was I mistaken? 

My initial post was serious. You're obviously a pats fan.  Your answer reads almost verbatim to what every pats fan has said to me. 

 

[Jercules]

My initial post was serious. You're obviously a pats fan.  Your answer reads almost verbatim to what every pats fan has said to me. 

Lol, I sincerely doubt that. 

 

[Willie Neslon]

Lol, I sincerely doubt that. 

Believe it.

 

[thecatch]

NFLPA adds Theodore Olson to their legal team.

62 appearances before the supreme court.

I suspect this all would have gone better for Brady if he'd added Olson to handle the appeal to the Second Circuit in the first place. Now it's probably just too little too late. 

 

[yabahos]

From what I have seen or read, Brady's best shot is to request a review by the entire Second Court of Appeals. Apparently, the fact that they reversed a decision, that he lost 2-1, and that the Chief Judge in the Appeals Court was the dissenting vote all helps Brady. 

Still not a great chance, but supposedly a much greater chance than the 1% number in terms of case reviews that they typically allow. 

It sounded like if Brady is granted a full review, he would get a reprieve until the case was reviewed and the vote was taken, which likely would mean he could play the entire season again. 

Who knows though, as the appeal decision came back in near record time when it often takes a year to have a decision rendered. 

IMO - this case is done and isn't going anywhere.   The idea of going to "en banc" a complete panel appeal is discussed here (which was tweeted out by one of the guys at 98.5 in Boston).   The relevant legal piece below starts on page 15 of the adobe file.  Its basically an analysis and discussion about the rarity, inconsistencies, and comparison of the chances of getting an en banc hearing in the various circuit courts.

A. Frequency of Use

En banc hearings and rehearings represent a small fraction of all cases heard by the federal courts of appeals.  For example, in 2010, the circuit courts heard forty-five cases en banc out of more than 30,914 cases terminated on their merits.  While en banc review is relatively rare in all circuits, the circuits vary in how frequently they use the en banc procedure.  For instance, the Federal Circuit seems particularly attuned to using en banc review, while the Second Circuit is the least likely to use it.  Elsewhere in the document it mentions that 0.03% of the Second Circuit 2010 total docket were "en banc" which is about 5 times less than the national average of 0.146%.

 

1. The Second Circuit’s “Tradition”

One reason the Second Circuit may tend to refrain from invoking the en banc procedure is because of “tradition.”  Second Circuit Judge Robert A. Katzmann explains that the Second Circuit has a “longstanding tradition of general deference to panel adjudication—a tradition which holds whether or not the judges of the Court agree with the panel’s disposition of the matter before it. Throughout [its] history, [the Second Circuit] has proceeded to a full hearing en banc only in rare and exceptional circumstances." 

So the guy that wrote the dissenting opinion in the Brady case states that the Second Circuit favors deference to the three member mini court to the full panel adjudication.   While this is certainly a subject that has garnered sports media attention, I just can't see them finding this rare or exceptional enough to go to a full panel appeal.

 

[moleculo]

Ware AND Ward AND Talib AND Manning AND Sanders... Are we sure you guys weren't cooking the books again? (http://yourteamcheats.com/DEN) ... I mean, reputation and all

I hope so, and I hope they keep up whatever 'creative accounting' keeps the FA's coming.

Speaking of 'creative accounting', we all need to keep an eye on Brady.  That salary he is playing under...we need to keep an eye open for future payments once he retires.  It wouldn't surprise me if there's some 'deferred compensation' outside the cap.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Brady jumped the shark a long time ago, but now he's hired Ted Olson to keep this thing going.  Words fail.