Patriots being investigated after Colts game (4 Viewers)

[Thorn]

God I love this thread

 

[mbuehner]

Look, the temperature-psi effect is real in theory, at least at extreme changes and time, and anyone can do experiments to study the effect of friction, temperature and psi, but their methods have to generalize to the situation at hand or their study is flawed at best.

Rather like saying the theory of gravity could have some effect on the arc of a pass, at least in theory. Of course the change in temperature will change the pressure, thats not a theory, its a law of nature. If the air temp inside the ball drops 20dF, the pressure is going to drop a predictable amount, as long as the volume remains constant. Period, full stop.

I think we get off the rails here by bringing in too many fudge factors. Forget the rubbing. The simplest experiment is to fill an official NFL game ball at 70dF and lower the temperature to 50dF and see what the pressure is. That is reproduceable everywhere in the world. The Headsmart labs got the balls wet- and then toweled them off, so theyve perhaps taken a step you could say complicated the experiment. Still, just doing that changed the pressure 1.8dF on average.

Thats why kills me about the Nye video btw, he puts footballs in a fridge and says 'This, my friends, is science'. Well not really, since you arent measuring anything, but ok. Then he pulls a ball out of the fridge, squeezes it and say, 'its pretty much the same'. This dude is supposed to be teaching science? To kids? Stick a gauge in the football you dope. And people are calling this an experiment? People in the media?

 

[Devine Intervention]

The arguement that it was the weather that dropped the psi is just stupid.

If that were the case it would've effected Indy balls too. And yes I know, there isn't proof that this wasn't the case. But don't you think that if it was the case that weather effected both team balls the same but Indy balls stayed about the limit, that they would've just stated that and dropped it? You don't need an investigation if both team balls lowered the same amount or even close to that amount.

 

[bostonfred]

You can feel 100% certainty and still end up being wrong once that certainty is put to the test.

You do not feel 100% certainty if you accept there is a non-zero chance you will end up being wrong before that happens.

What you feel in that case is "pretty sure."

feeling 100% certain of something is usually wrong too. I'm almost 100% certain of it.

 

[amnesiac]

any new info?

or just more overuse of words like "salty" and "balls?"

 

[randall146]

The arguement that it was the weather that dropped the psi is just stupid.

If that were the case it would've effected Indy balls too. And yes I know, there isn't proof that this wasn't the case. But don't you think that if it was the case that weather effected both team balls the same but Indy balls stayed about the limit, that they would've just stated that and dropped it? You don't need an investigation if both team balls lowered the same amount or even close to that amount.

That's actually a pretty good point

 

[Old Smiley]

The arguement that it was the weather that dropped the psi is just stupid.

If that were the case it would've effected Indy balls too. And yes I know, there isn't proof that this wasn't the case. But don't you think that if it was the case that weather effected both team balls the same but Indy balls stayed about the limit, that they would've just stated that and dropped it? You don't need an investigation if both team balls lowered the same amount or even close to that amount.

That's actually a pretty good point

You're right. Hadn't thought of that...

 

[mbuehner]

The arguement that it was the weather that dropped the psi is just stupid.

If that were the case it would've effected Indy balls too. And yes I know, there isn't proof that this wasn't the case. But don't you think that if it was the case that weather effected both team balls the same but Indy balls stayed about the limit, that they would've just stated that and dropped it? You don't need an investigation if both team balls lowered the same amount or even close to that amount.

Oh crap, nobody has mentioned the Indy balls in this 113 page thread! Why didnt we think about that?!

Thanks bro, and while youre at it, help us out and post the data of what pressure the Indy balls were measured at before the game, and what temperature they were filled at. Oh, and also when and where they were remeasured, and what their pressure was.

 

[parrot]

The arguement that it was the weather that dropped the psi is just stupid.

If that were the case it would've effected Indy balls too. And yes I know, there isn't proof that this wasn't the case. But don't you think that if it was the case that weather effected both team balls the same but Indy balls stayed about the limit, that they would've just stated that and dropped it? You don't need an investigation if both team balls lowered the same amount or even close to that amount.

Goodell's been listening to people ##### about how he destroyed the Camerainplainviewonthesidelinegate tapes for 7 years now, and he he just went through a major ####storm over not treating the Ray Rice incident seriously enough. Once word of this was in the wind with the media, there was no way it was going away easily.

 

[Flying Elvis]

It's just too many pages since I last checked in. Did anyone mention the Ideal Gas Law, because I think it's important.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Everyone should relax, I'm sure Goodell will definitely put this to rest when he addresses the media later this week.

 

[Old Smiley]

Boy, this whole deflategate thing's really something, huh? I hear Indy's balls didn't even deflate! Wow.

 

[MattFancy]

Boy, this whole deflategate thing's really something, huh? I hear Indy's balls didn't even deflate! Wow.

So they used special balls that don't deflate? The plot thickens!

 

[TobiasFunke]

The arguement that it was the weather that dropped the psi is just stupid.

If that were the case it would've effected Indy balls too. And yes I know, there isn't proof that this wasn't the case. But don't you think that if it was the case that weather effected both team balls the same but Indy balls stayed about the limit, that they would've just stated that and dropped it? You don't need an investigation if both team balls lowered the same amount or even close to that amount.

Goodell's been listening to people ##### about how he destroyed the Camerainplainviewonthesidelinegate tapes for 7 years now, and he he just went through a major ####storm over not treating the Ray Rice incident seriously enough. Once word of this was in the wind with the media, there was no way it was going away easily.

Seriously, this Patriots team just cannot catch a break from the NFL front office, right? If it's not changing the rules at the behest of the team's quarterback or destroying the evidence of their cheating without explanation, it's scheduling them for "road" games in London every other season to ensure that they end up playing only seven true regular season road games as often as possible. When will the Commissioner put a stop to this Patriots witch hunt?

 

[Devine Intervention]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

 

[George Jefferson Airplane]

when we get to the point of arguing who's anonymous sources are more credible, we know it's gone too far. Time to shut it down.

We are on page 113. Wasn't it time to shut it down around page six?????

 

[Flying Elvis]

Everyone should relax, I'm sure Goodell will definitely put this to rest when he addresses the media later this week.

Certainly, especially since he promised full transparency. All the facts are sure to come out in a clear and precise manner. Unless, by transparency, he meant there'd be plenty of windows in so unnamed sources could see damaging info and leak it out to the press.

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You have far, far more faith in the ability of this particular NFL HQ than they deserve.

 

[Skoo]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

Not to mention, there are far colder games played in the NFL every season. Surely this problem would have come up before now if weather was the culprit.

 

[mbuehner]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

 

[mbuehner]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

Not to mention, there are far colder games played in the NFL every season. Surely this problem would have come up before now if weather was the culprit.

Unless *shock* a couple pounds of pressure is not a big deal, and probably not noticeable unless you are looking for it.

 

[Bad_Mo]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

People are probably missing your points because they are focusing on effected v. affected. I hate grammar cops.

 

[Dezbelief]

Has anybody figured out how long it would take a ball to cool down enough to lose 1 or 2 psi?

 

[moleculo]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

 

[mbuehner]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them within, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

 

[Devine Intervention]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

People are probably missing your points because they are focusing on effected v. affected. I hate grammar cops.

weird, I hate them too. Just as much as I hate ##### bags and you proved to be both. Congrats.

 

[MG345]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Honestly, there are way too many variables on both sides and too much unknown information. It doesn't make sense to me, but because we aren't sure what the chain of custody was, or the SOP for road teams in this situation, etc etc, it makes it hard to definitely say one way or the other. On the surface, the MOST reasonable answer is NE submitted balls that were under inflated, BB says as much himself -- the rest of that rubbing to increase PSI needs to happen in such a specific way it seems more like back filling an appropriate SOP to meet the rules. I think there is just enough evidence to play the results both ways. Until the NFL comes out and shows the definitive timeline, procedures, measurements, etc, all of this is just pissing in the wind.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

And if the balls inside the ball bag were actually closer to 70 degrees what would happen then?

 

[moleculo]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them with, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

it's not, but it's not a necessary leap to make. Why not just assume they were inflated to 13.5 psi at room temp?

The colts-cold-ball theory is basically they were filled to 13.5 psi in the cold, rushed and checked indoors at 13.5 psi, and then they would remain at 13.5 psi throughout the game. That doesn't sound like something a team would do.

 

[MG345]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them within, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

Making up scenarios to fit the desired results? That sounds an awful lot like what all the Pats fans are complaining about, just fyi.

 

[mbuehner]

And if the balls inside the ball bag were actually closer to 70 degrees what would happen then?

Which balls?

If you mean the colts ball, if they were set at 13.5psi at 70d, they would have lost 1psi at 50d, and still been within the rules as the source claims.

 

[BroadwayG]

The arguement that it was the weather that dropped the psi is just stupid.

If that were the case it would've effected Indy balls too. And yes I know, there isn't proof that this wasn't the case. But don't you think that if it was the case that weather effected both team balls the same but Indy balls stayed about the limit, that they would've just stated that and dropped it? You don't need an investigation if both team balls lowered the same amount or even close to that amount.

That's actually a pretty good point

Evidence that Indy overinflated their balls knowing they would deflate to keep themselves in the clear while the Pats took the tumble.

 

[mbuehner]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them with, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

it's not, but it's not a necessary leap to make. Why not just assume they were inflated to 13.5 psi at room temp?

The colts-cold-ball theory is basically they were filled to 13.5 psi in the cold, rushed and checked indoors at 13.5 psi, and then they would remain at 13.5 psi throughout the game.

Because its totally reasonable that the away team had their balls sitting outside, and its totally plausible that knowing they were going to challenge the Patriots balls they topped off their own balls before submitting them to the refs.

The balls could have been set to ANY legal pressure outside and would have read about that same pressure at halftime. Its going to take longer for balls to warm up sitting piled in a bag in the refs room than to cool down getting wet and tossed around outside. Would you stipulate that in half an hour a 10dF rise in temperature would be reasonable? I'd say thats even generous, but in that case you would expect a rise of .5psi. So if the ball was set at 13 it would read 13.5 after half an hour inside.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Someone reference the common knowledge of trying to bounce a basketball in the winter and how the cold air effects the pressure in the ball. I have played football my entire life, using a football from inside my 70 deg house and playing in 40 deg or less weather sometimes. I don't remember losing pressure in those few hours. I think temp can change the pressure in some circumstances but to the degree where it would alert the NFL to investigate?

 

[MG345]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them with, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

it's not, but it's not a necessary leap to make. Why not just assume they were inflated to 13.5 psi at room temp?

The colts-cold-ball theory is basically they were filled to 13.5 psi in the cold, rushed and checked indoors at 13.5 psi, and then they would remain at 13.5 psi throughout the game.

Because its totally reasonable that the away team had their balls sitting outside, and its totally plausible that knowing they were going to challenge the Patriots balls they topped off their own balls before submitting them to the refs.

The balls could have been set to ANY legal pressure outside and would have read about that same pressure at halftime. Its going to take longer for balls to warm up sitting piled in a bag in the refs room than to cool down getting wet and tossed around outside. Would you stipulate that in half an hour a 10dF rise in temperature would be reasonable? I'd say thats even generous, but in that case you would expect a rise of .5psi. So if the ball was set at 13 it would read 13.5 after half an hour inside.

Link? Why is it ok to assume what happened on the Colts side, but Pats fans want to crucify people for assuming what happened on the Pats side?

 

[randall146]

Someone reference the common knowledge of trying to bounce a basketball in the winter and how the cold air effects the pressure in the ball. I have played football my entire life, using a football from inside my 70 deg house and playing in 40 deg or less weather sometimes. I don't remember losing pressure in those few hours. I think temp can change the pressure in some circumstances but to the degree where it would alert the NFL to investigate?

It's more obvious in a basketball because you dribble a basketball and the ball's response relates directly to pressure.

It's less noticeable in a football because the pressure goes down, the hardness of the leather seems to go up, and you don't dribble the ball.

 

[Devine Intervention]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them with, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

it's not, but it's not a necessary leap to make. Why not just assume they were inflated to 13.5 psi at room temp?

The colts-cold-ball theory is basically they were filled to 13.5 psi in the cold, rushed and checked indoors at 13.5 psi, and then they would remain at 13.5 psi throughout the game.

Because its totally reasonable that the away team had their balls sitting outside, and its totally plausible that knowing they were going to challenge the Patriots balls they topped off their own balls before submitting them to the refs.

The balls could have been set to ANY legal pressure outside and would have read about that same pressure at halftime. Its going to take longer for balls to warm up sitting piled in a bag in the refs room than to cool down getting wet and tossed around outside. Would you stipulate that in half an hour a 10dF rise in temperature would be reasonable? I'd say thats even generous, but in that case you would expect a rise of .5psi. So if the ball was set at 13 it would read 13.5 after half an hour inside.

Link? Why is it ok to assume what happened on the Colts side, but Pats fans want to crucify people for assuming what happened on the Pats side?

No, it is one big conspiracy against the Pats by the salty haters, to set up a sting operation, over inflate their balls and leave them in a cold area to have to drop in the psi.

OR, a team who is known for cheating and always pushes the envelope on the rules might have taken it too far.

No way, stick to the conspiracy.

Actually, maybe it was the league that paid the ball boys off or the refs. Maybe Goodell secretly hates Craft and has been setting him up this whole time! yea yea that's it

 

[mbuehner]

Someone reference the common knowledge of trying to bounce a basketball in the winter and how the cold air effects the pressure in the ball. I have played football my entire life, using a football from inside my 70 deg house and playing in 40 deg or less weather sometimes. I don't remember losing pressure in those few hours. I think temp can change the pressure in some circumstances but to the degree where it would alert the NFL to investigate?

Either you're playing in universe that doesnt acknowledge the ideal gas law... or you just arent noticing 1 to 2 pounds of pressure missing. Which do you suppose?

 

[randall146]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them with, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

it's not, but it's not a necessary leap to make. Why not just assume they were inflated to 13.5 psi at room temp?

The colts-cold-ball theory is basically they were filled to 13.5 psi in the cold, rushed and checked indoors at 13.5 psi, and then they would remain at 13.5 psi throughout the game.

Because its totally reasonable that the away team had their balls sitting outside, and its totally plausible that knowing they were going to challenge the Patriots balls they topped off their own balls before submitting them to the refs.

The balls could have been set to ANY legal pressure outside and would have read about that same pressure at halftime. Its going to take longer for balls to warm up sitting piled in a bag in the refs room than to cool down getting wet and tossed around outside. Would you stipulate that in half an hour a 10dF rise in temperature would be reasonable? I'd say thats even generous, but in that case you would expect a rise of .5psi. So if the ball was set at 13 it would read 13.5 after half an hour inside.

Link? Why is it ok to assume what happened on the Colts side, but Pats fans want to crucify people for assuming what happened on the Pats side?

Because one side is assuming wrongdoing and choosing facts that fit wrongdoing, while the other side is proposing simple and reasonable explanations that agree with science and don't require a conspiracy.

 

[the moops]

http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html

 

[Old Smiley]

Someone reference the common knowledge of trying to bounce a basketball in the winter and how the cold air effects the pressure in the ball. I have played football my entire life, using a football from inside my 70 deg house and playing in 40 deg or less weather sometimes. I don't remember losing pressure in those few hours. I think temp can change the pressure in some circumstances but to the degree where it would alert the NFL to investigate?

You might also conclude from that that a few pounds of pressure lost is 1) harder to detect than some bonehead ex-jock on espn says; and 2) just not a big of a deal.

 

[mbuehner]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

You know what else is common knowledge? That we dont know anything about the Indy balls, aside from an anonymous source that said they were measured at halftime and found in compliance.

So let me riddle you this- were the Colts balls stored or filled outdoors before the game? Because if they were, they wouldn't lose any pressure, because the air in them would already have been cold.

IE- without knowing anything about the Colts balls, we cant draw any assumptions about what their pressure was or should have been.

the colts-cold-filled-ball theory is identical to the pats-hot-ball-theory. For this to work, the Colts must have inflated their balls outside, put them into the ball-sack, and rushed them inside immediately for inspection. As soon as you bring them indoors, the clock is ticking and wouldn't take all that long for them to acclimate to ambient room temp, especially given that it wasn't all that cold outside.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Wohh, thats not the same at all. Theres no rushing involved. Lets say they set them at 13psi exactly. They bring them in to the refs, the refs measure them with, say, half an hour. They clock in at 13.5psi. How is that in any way odd?

it's not, but it's not a necessary leap to make. Why not just assume they were inflated to 13.5 psi at room temp?

The colts-cold-ball theory is basically they were filled to 13.5 psi in the cold, rushed and checked indoors at 13.5 psi, and then they would remain at 13.5 psi throughout the game.

Because its totally reasonable that the away team had their balls sitting outside, and its totally plausible that knowing they were going to challenge the Patriots balls they topped off their own balls before submitting them to the refs.

The balls could have been set to ANY legal pressure outside and would have read about that same pressure at halftime. Its going to take longer for balls to warm up sitting piled in a bag in the refs room than to cool down getting wet and tossed around outside. Would you stipulate that in half an hour a 10dF rise in temperature would be reasonable? I'd say thats even generous, but in that case you would expect a rise of .5psi. So if the ball was set at 13 it would read 13.5 after half an hour inside.

Link? Why is it ok to assume what happened on the Colts side, but Pats fans want to crucify people for assuming what happened on the Pats side?

Its not ok to assume anything. Thats the point, and why everybody gets bent out of shape when the 9000th person starts screaming about the Colts balls. We dont have any information on them. So anybody can make any assumptions they want. I just pointed out a totally reasonable scenario for how the Colts balls would stay within the legal range. I'll undoubtedly have to do it again in 2 pages.

 

[JIslander]

What about the make of the ball "sack" ? Has that been brought up? I mean if its mesh, that would induce quicker cooling. If canvas-like, heat would be retained better. Perhaps the video will show evidence of how the sacks were hanging too which could be quite telling.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Someone reference the common knowledge of trying to bounce a basketball in the winter and how the cold air effects the pressure in the ball. I have played football my entire life, using a football from inside my 70 deg house and playing in 40 deg or less weather sometimes. I don't remember losing pressure in those few hours. I think temp can change the pressure in some circumstances but to the degree where it would alert the NFL to investigate?

It's more obvious in a basketball because you dribble a basketball and the ball's response relates directly to pressure.

It's less noticeable in a football because the pressure goes down, the hardness of the leather seems to go up, and you don't dribble the ball.

I have thrown a football enough to know how crappy it is to try to throw an over inflated ball. I know the difference. Especially being average size(5'11") with average hands. The over inflated ball sucks to use. When I use an over inflated ball in the winter it doesn't feel any more manageable than when we started the game. Just from my experience.

 

[Bayhawks]

You cancel out some terms, because its air and the football volume is fixed (we're also assuming the barometric pressure is fixed but technically its not between indoors and outdoors- its higher out in the rainy air it would decrease the internal pressured even more, but thats hard to quantify).
Came to find out its actually Gay-Lussac's Law, which is the variation of the Ideal Gas Law, P1/T1=P2/T2. But to work, the temperature has to be in Kelvin, and the pressure has to be absolute pressure, not gauge pressure which is what you read off the gauge. Hence the further machinations. Its pretty easy though once you understand all that:

(Gauge Pressure + 14.7)/(Initial Degrees Fahrenheit + 459.67) = P2/ (Final Degrees Fahrenheit + 459.67).

cross multiply

(GP+14.7) x (Temp2+459.67) / (Temp1+459.67) = P2

Then subtract 14.7 from the result to get back to Gauge Pressure for comparison.

Thanks for this.

So, this shows that if the footballs were filled in a 70 degree room (to 12.5 PSI, which is a reasonable assumption to me based on Brady's stated preference for a lower-inflated ball), they could have been 1 PSI lower simply due to the temperature.

If I had to decide what happened (and obviously, I don't) based on what we know (or at least what has been posted about in this thread), I'd have to say that the Patriots inflated the balls to the lower threshold, indoors (in the hypothetical 70 degree room). I don't think they de-inflated the balls (I don't see how the attendant would have had the time to do so in 90 seconds); I'd say this Gay-Lussac's Law equation showed the temperature would have impacted the PSI, and I'd feel safe in assuming the moisture could have accounted for another .5 to 1 PSI reduction in the footballs.

I am left with questions still:

1-If the Patriots balls from the 2nd half were inflated in the same hypothetical 70 degree room, and stored inside during the 1st half, why didn't they experience the same loss of PSI (I know someone else posted that maybe they weren't checked right after the game-I'm assuming this is the case, but I don't KNOW this)

2-What is taking the NFL so long? I'm not a scientist, and that obviously explains why I needed someone else to explain how this Gay-Lussac's Law applied to this situation. You'd think the NFL would have someone with that knowledge readily available to say "here's your answer." The fact that this is still dragging on makes me wonder if there is something that the NFL has/knows that hasn't been leaked.

 

[randall146]

What about the make of the ball "sack" ? Has that been brought up? I mean if its mesh, that would induce quicker cooling. If canvas-like, heat would be retained better. Perhaps the video will show evidence of how the sacks were hanging too which could be quite telling.

Are you proposing shrinkage as a possible culprit?

 

[randall146]

Someone reference the common knowledge of trying to bounce a basketball in the winter and how the cold air effects the pressure in the ball. I have played football my entire life, using a football from inside my 70 deg house and playing in 40 deg or less weather sometimes. I don't remember losing pressure in those few hours. I think temp can change the pressure in some circumstances but to the degree where it would alert the NFL to investigate?

It's more obvious in a basketball because you dribble a basketball and the ball's response relates directly to pressure.

It's less noticeable in a football because the pressure goes down, the hardness of the leather seems to go up, and you don't dribble the ball.

I have thrown a football enough to know how crappy it is to try to throw an over inflated ball. I know the difference. Especially being average size(5'11") with average hands. The over inflated ball sucks to use. When I use an over inflated ball in the winter it doesn't feel any more manageable than when we started the game. Just from my experience.

I think you're lost. You want to be in the over-inflate-gate thread.

 

[parrot]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

Not to mention, there are far colder games played in the NFL every season. Surely this problem would have come up before now if weather was the culprit.

Unless *shock* a couple pounds of pressure is not a big deal, and probably not noticeable unless you are looking for it.

Just as a point of reference, a basketball typically has 7.5 - 8.5 psi.

 

[Old Smiley]

I strongly endorse making ball sacks a larger part of the media dialogue.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

2-What is taking the NFL so long? I'm not a scientist, and that obviously explains why I needed someone else to explain how this Gay-Lussac's Law applied to this situation. You'd think the NFL would have someone with that knowledge readily available to say "here's your answer." The fact that this is still dragging on makes me wonder if there is something that the NFL has/knows that hasn't been leaked.

The NFL has hired a private firm to look for and review any video, text or e-mail evidence -- potentially from multiple teams.

That alone should give the Sugary Lovers enough to pause IMO.

 

[mbuehner]

You pats lovers are missing the point. I know everyone is clearly aware that the weather would've effected Indy balls.

But if it was something so simple as a temp drop as some of you are stating then it would've effected both teams. Again, common knowledge. But where my point comes in, is if this were the case I think it would be VERY easy to see that this was the case by comparing the drop in the psi. I doubt the nfl would have let this whole thing run of the tracks without making sure it wasn't just air temp effecting the balls.

Not to mention, there are far colder games played in the NFL every season. Surely this problem would have come up before now if weather was the culprit.

Unless *shock* a couple pounds of pressure is not a big deal, and probably not noticeable unless you are looking for it.

Just as a point of reference, a basketball typically has 7.5 - 8.5 psi.

Then an 8psi basketball dropping from 75 to 50d would end up at 7psi. I dont think anyone would notice a 1psi drop unless they were specifically expecting it and A/Bing a fully inflated ball.