Patriots being investigated after Colts game (26 Viewers)

[satch]

Can you imagine if properly focused, what common good could have come from this un-relentless brain trust of the Boston strong? A class on Deflategate.

What are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

My guess he is did keep it and was full of crap when he says he didn't.

Why he didn't share it...who knows. Nor do I care if they share it or not.

Why would he lie about keeping the data?

 

[yabahos]

One of the variables in football pressure that I did not see addressed in any of the studies or hypotheticals is that footballs may not be an ideally suited container upon which can be applied the Ideal Gas Law. The ideal gas law presumes a container of fixed volume through temperature changes. I do not know if a football has a fixed volume through temperature variations. How does leather, thread for stitching, laces and the bladder react to cold. One would presume there is some shrinkage, as most things shrink in cold, but is it uniform. Is it enough to change in any meaningful way the volume of a football? How about in statistically insignificant ways, but in ways which might have made the reported numbers just a little less suspicious, just a little? How does moisture effect the pliability or rigidity of the container and therefore its volume.

Not going too deep into the physics behind it but fixed (or constant) volume essentially means that the container (in this case the football bladder) is not leaking nor are you adding/removing anything from it. The ideal gas law is a combination of a couple of scientific prinicples that work over the range of temperature and pressures we normally see on earth. It's incredibly accurate under these conditions and the level of error that something like moisture effects would have had on the process are neglible when compared to the inherent error in the monitoring device (pressure gauge).

The ideal gas law breaks down under very high pressures (think 50+ times the normal atmospheric pressure) and/or low temperatures (near the point where the gas becomes a liquid).

 

[moleculo]

Put another way:

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Correct, no one other than you is trying to claim otherwise.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

The Patriots have stated it as fact and I am not aware of anyone claiming otherwise (other than you).

For example page 8 of the AE report

"The report also notes that halftime was scheduled to last 13 minutes and that the Colts balls were measured toward the very end of that window, when they ran out of time. We can therefore infer that the Colts balls were tested after being indoors for a period of a bit less than 15 minutes. The first of the Patriots balls was measured right at the beginning of halftime, followed by the others" https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/On-the-Wells-report.pdf

I suppose one could make the argument that the AE study "inferred" that the Colts balls were indoors while waiting to be tested rather than claiming it as fact. But the fact of the matter is the Wells report itself (page 5) already states that as fact.

"At the start of halftime, the game balls from each team were brought into the Officials Locker Room, each teams balls in their own respective bags. During the halftime period, the air pressure of 11 Patriots footballs and four Colts footballs were measured. The measurements were taken by Clete Blakeman and Dyrol Prioleau"

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

Here is a pretty good analysis from an MIT professor (I could easily provide more and you are welcome to submit counter analysis from some other source if you like, but I don't think it exists) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwxXsEltyas (@DW this video addresses some other factors you mentioned such as rain, wear and tear etc)

So counter to what you originally claimed (IE, the reason I took exception to your original post), there are no questionable assumptions with regard to when the Colts balls were tested and where they were kept prior to the testing.

I concede that some of the deflategate evidence may not be on the Patriots side, but the science is.

The science may be on the Patriots side, but Goodell has Dorito Dink.

Properly said, the science isn't on anyone's side. You cannot look at the data and conclude there was or was not deflation. Simply put, the sample sizes were too small relative to the variation.

 

[Run It Up]

You sound like an economist.

 

[moleculo]

You sound like an economist.

Lol

 

[moleculo]

You sound like an economist.

Lol

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Ideal Gas Law noun, psychology

A scientific explanation quantifying the amount of hot air homers expend defending their team with legalistic minutia after its ballboys are caught discussing their conspiracy to cheat, and the owner agrees to surrender a first round pick as punishment for the wrongdoing.

I understand you want to take shots at Patriot fans, but what are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't deem it wise to keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

Because it's the NFL and that's what they do?

Also because they didn't want to give lawyerly types any more information to spin.

 

[bostonfred]

what are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't deem it wise to keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

Because it's the NFL and that's what they do?

Also because they didn't want to give lawyerly types any more information to spin.

It's good to know that people still feel Goodell destroying evidence is not proof of guilt or innocence. Nothings changed as far as that's concerned, that's for sure.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Tricky Roger....destroying evidence to protect the patriots again.

 

[sho nuff]

Can you imagine if properly focused, what common good could have come from this un-relentless brain trust of the Boston strong? A class on Deflategate.

What are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

My guess he is did keep it and was full of crap when he says he didn't.

Why he didn't share it...who knows. Nor do I care if they share it or not.

Why would he lie about keeping the data?

Dont know...dont care.

Why do you think he did?

Think it exinerated the pats and now others are keeping it all quiet?

 

[JaxBill]

Put another way:

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Correct, no one other than you is trying to claim otherwise.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

The Patriots have stated it as fact and I am not aware of anyone claiming otherwise (other than you).

For example page 8 of the AE report

"The report also notes that halftime was scheduled to last 13 minutes and that the Colts balls were measured toward the very end of that window, when they ran out of time. We can therefore infer that the Colts balls were tested after being indoors for a period of a bit less than 15 minutes. The first of the Patriots balls was measured right at the beginning of halftime, followed by the others" https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/On-the-Wells-report.pdf

I suppose one could make the argument that the AE study "inferred" that the Colts balls were indoors while waiting to be tested rather than claiming it as fact. But the fact of the matter is the Wells report itself (page 5) already states that as fact.

"At the start of halftime, the game balls from each team were brought into the Officials Locker Room, each teams balls in their own respective bags. During the halftime period, the air pressure of 11 Patriots footballs and four Colts footballs were measured. The measurements were taken by Clete Blakeman and Dyrol Prioleau"

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

Here is a pretty good analysis from an MIT professor (I could easily provide more and you are welcome to submit counter analysis from some other source if you like, but I don't think it exists)

"Shrinkage! Everybody knows about shrinkage!" - George Costanza

 

[davearm]

Put another way:

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Correct, no one other than you is trying to claim otherwise.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

The Patriots have stated it as fact and I am not aware of anyone claiming otherwise (other than you).

For example page 8 of the AE report

"The report also notes that halftime was scheduled to last 13 minutes and that the Colts balls were measured toward the very end of that window, when they ran out of time. We can therefore infer that the Colts balls were tested after being indoors for a period of a bit less than 15 minutes. The first of the Patriots balls was measured right at the beginning of halftime, followed by the others" https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/On-the-Wells-report.pdf

I suppose one could make the argument that the AE study "inferred" that the Colts balls were indoors while waiting to be tested rather than claiming it as fact. But the fact of the matter is the Wells report itself (page 5) already states that as fact.

"At the start of halftime, the game balls from each team were brought into the Officials Locker Room, each team’s balls in their own respective bags. During the halftime period, the air pressure of 11 Patriots footballs and four Colts footballs were measured. The measurements were taken by Clete Blakeman and Dyrol Prioleau"
https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

Here is a pretty good analysis from an MIT professor (I could easily provide more and you are welcome to submit counter analysis from some other source if you like, but I don't think it exists) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwxXsEltyas (@DW this video addresses some other factors you mentioned such as rain, wear and tear etc)

So counter to what you originally claimed (IE, the reason I took exception to your original post), there are no questionable assumptions with regard to when the Colts balls were tested and where they were kept prior to the testing.

I concede that some of the deflategate evidence may not be on the Patriots side, but the science is.

The question of the timing of the measurements (or more specifically, the temps of the footballs when measured) is simultaneously critical to the conclusion, and very much uncertain. Whatever guesses we make about the amount of time that elapsed between measuring the Pats' balls and the Colts' balls are just that -- guesses.

I really think you need to go back and re-read my posts. I'm not advocating for either side, and despite your repeated insistence otherwise, I don't have any reason for wishful\hopeful thinking one way or another.

My only motivation here is to correct the misguided notion that the science points squarely to one conclusion or another. It simply does not.

 

[satch]

Can you imagine if properly focused, what common good could have come from this un-relentless brain trust of the Boston strong? A class on Deflategate.

What are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

My guess he is did keep it and was full of crap when he says he didn't.

Why he didn't share it...who knows. Nor do I care if they share it or not.

Why would he lie about keeping the data?

Dont know...dont care.Why do you think he did?

Think it exinerated the pats and now others are keeping it all quiet?

I think the fact that Goodell is hiding that data rather than leaking or revealing it means it's more probable than not that the data supports the ideal gas law theory.

 

[sho nuff]

Can you imagine if properly focused, what common good could have come from this un-relentless brain trust of the Boston strong? A class on Deflategate.

What are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

My guess he is did keep it and was full of crap when he says he didn't.

Why he didn't share it...who knows. Nor do I care if they share it or not.

Why would he lie about keeping the data?

Dont know...dont care.Why do you think he did?

Think it exinerated the pats and now others are keeping it all quiet?

I think the fact that Goodell is hiding that data rather than leaking or revealing it means it's more probable than not that the data supports the ideal gas law theory.

Doubtful...you think he is keeping everyone quiet?

Everyone that made and recorded a measurement all year long?

Its funny that some of you still hold on to hope that the Pats did nothing.

 

[Run It Up]

My only motivation here is to correct the misguided notion that the science points squarely to one conclusion or another. It simply does not.

The only conclusion, drawn by Wells was that the science supported that tampering occurred.

Using the same data that Wells and Exponent used neutral parties came to a different and completely opposite conclusion as a consensus.

So yes, the patchwork witch trial the shield threw together in an attempt to get the Pats for anything didn't prove they did or didn't do anything - and instead proved that they came to the wrong conclusion with the data they had, bringing their already questionable integrity under even more scrutiny while the Pats are blowing in the wind over allegations that can't be proven or disproven after months of the league leaking incorrect information to the media.

Literal bull####.

 

[JIslander]

My only motivation here is to correct the misguided notion that the science points squarely to one conclusion or another. It simply does not.

The only conclusion, drawn by Wells was that the science supported that tampering occurred.

Using the same data that Wells and Exponent used neutral parties came to a different and completely opposite conclusion as a consensus.

So yes, the patchwork witch trial the shield threw together in an attempt to get the Pats for anything didn't prove they did or didn't do anything - and instead proved that they came to the wrong conclusion with the data they had, bringing their already questionable integrity under even more scrutiny while the Pats are blowing in the wind over allegations that can't be proven or disproven after months of the league leaking incorrect information to the media.

Literal bull####.

I predict in 10 years you'll look back on this older and wiser, laughing at how gullible you were that BB the proclaimed greatest NFL coach gained NOTHING from crossing the many lines -- he knew what he was doing and wouldn't do it if there was no advantage --can't have it both ways -

 

[satch]

Can you imagine if properly focused, what common good could have come from this un-relentless brain trust of the Boston strong? A class on Deflategate.

What are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

My guess he is did keep it and was full of crap when he says he didn't.

Why he didn't share it...who knows. Nor do I care if they share it or not.

Why would he lie about keeping the data?

Dont know...dont care.Why do you think he did?

Think it exinerated the pats and now others are keeping it all quiet?

I think the fact that Goodell is hiding that data rather than leaking or revealing it means it's more probable than not that the data supports the ideal gas law theory.

Doubtful...you think he is keeping everyone quiet?

Everyone that made and recorded a measurement all year long?

Its funny that some of you still hold on to hope that the Pats did nothing.

I've said from day one that I think the Pats screwed with the footballs post inspection, but only if/when the refs unnecessarily over-inflated them. I think Brady likes them at the low end of the allowable specs and his boys made sure that's how they were. The ideal gas law took over from there causing them to fall below specs. I don't believe Brady or the Patriots ever schemed to get the balls below specs, but a ball at the low end of specs will fall below specs by halftime due to the ideal gas law. I believe thet did violate an equipment rule, but I don't believe they were trying to gain any kind of competitive advantage as has been portrayed.

 

[sho nuff]

Can you imagine if properly focused, what common good could have come from this un-relentless brain trust of the Boston strong? A class on Deflategate.

What are your thoughts on why Goodell didn't keep and share the data from all the spot checks?

My guess he is did keep it and was full of crap when he says he didn't.

Why he didn't share it...who knows. Nor do I care if they share it or not.

Why would he lie about keeping the data?

Dont know...dont care.Why do you think he did?

Think it exinerated the pats and now others are keeping it all quiet?

I think the fact that Goodell is hiding that data rather than leaking or revealing it means it's more probable than not that the data supports the ideal gas law theory.

Doubtful...you think he is keeping everyone quiet?

Everyone that made and recorded a measurement all year long?

Its funny that some of you still hold on to hope that the Pats did nothing.

I've said from day one that I think the Pats screwed with the footballs post inspection, but only if/when the refs unnecessarily over-inflated them. I think Brady likes them at the low end of the allowable specs and his boys made sure that's how they were. The ideal gas law took over from there causing them to fall below specs. I don't believe Brady or the Patriots ever schemed to get the balls below specs, but a ball at the low end of specs will fall below specs by halftime due to the ideal gas law. I believe thet did violate an equipment rule, but I don't believe they were trying to gain any kind of competitive advantage as has been portrayed.

Few things...

@ the ball boys just bringing them from overinflated to within specs.

Even if so...they still broke NFL rules by messing with the balls post-inspection, then lying and obstructing the investigation if your story was what happened.

 

[ratbast]

Through all this he is consistent in dragging it as long as possible.

It doesn't matter, winning or losing this for the NFL. They want it to drag on.

The Data either shows nothing or shows one side's winning view, either way holding is the right play.

If the data showed they win, hold and use at the right time, like at court. If the data shows Brady did nothing (according to the ball pressure) then why release until later?

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Put another way:

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Correct, no one other than you is trying to claim otherwise.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

The Patriots have stated it as fact and I am not aware of anyone claiming otherwise (other than you).

For example page 8 of the AE report

"The report also notes that halftime was scheduled to last 13 minutes and that the Colts balls were measured toward the very end of that window, when they ran out of time. We can therefore infer that the Colts balls were tested after being indoors for a period of a bit less than 15 minutes. The first of the Patriots balls was measured right at the beginning of halftime, followed by the others" https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/On-the-Wells-report.pdf

I suppose one could make the argument that the AE study "inferred" that the Colts balls were indoors while waiting to be tested rather than claiming it as fact. But the fact of the matter is the Wells report itself (page 5) already states that as fact.

"At the start of halftime, the game balls from each team were brought into the Officials Locker Room, each team’s balls in their own respective bags. During the halftime period, the air pressure of 11 Patriots footballs and four Colts footballs were measured. The measurements were taken by Clete Blakeman and Dyrol Prioleau"
https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

Here is a pretty good analysis from an MIT professor (I could easily provide more and you are welcome to submit counter analysis from some other source if you like, but I don't think it exists) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwxXsEltyas (@DW this video addresses some other factors you mentioned such as rain, wear and tear etc)

So counter to what you originally claimed (IE, the reason I took exception to your original post), there are no questionable assumptions with regard to when the Colts balls were tested and where they were kept prior to the testing.

I concede that some of the deflategate evidence may not be on the Patriots side, but the science is.

The question of the timing of the measurements (or more specifically, the temps of the footballs when measured) is simultaneously critical to the conclusion, and very much uncertain. Whatever guesses we make about the amount of time that elapsed between measuring the Pats' balls and the Colts' balls are just that -- guesses.

I really think you need to go back and re-read my posts. I'm not advocating for either side, and despite your repeated insistence otherwise, I don't have any reason for wishful\hopeful thinking one way or another.

My only motivation here is to correct the misguided notion that the science points squarely to one conclusion or another. It simply does not.

Dave,

I am not challenging the opinion that the timing of the measurements is critical (I agree).

I am not challenging the opinion that the "exact" amount of time between the 1st ball tested and the last is not known(I agree).

I am challenging your original claim that both sets of balls might have been tested at the "same time" because it is demonstrably untrue.

Can you concede the point that the two sets of balls were not tested at the same time?

As to your motivation, I don't know; when you originally posted you honestly may not have known that the order of testing was not in question. However now you do know.

 

[satch]

Through all this he is consistent in dragging it as long as possible.

It doesn't matter, winning or losing this for the NFL. They want it to drag on.

The Data either shows nothing or shows one side's winning view, either way holding is the right play.

If the data showed they win, hold and use at the right time, like at court. If the data shows Brady did nothing (according to the ball pressure) then why release until later?

Based on the NFLs actions up to this point, it's only logical to conclude that if the data supported the NFL's claim that the Patriots were using balls inflated below the minimum specs at kickoff they most certainly would use that to their advantage. It's illogical to think otherwise. The NFL has been trying to prove this for over a year now. Why hold back evidence now? Therefore, we can only conclude that the data supports the Patriots claim that their footballs were within specs at kickoff, and the ideal gas law is to blame for those balls being under specs at halftime.

 

[Workhorse]

If the 2015 data proved their case against Brady, it would have been noted in the NFL's response brief in the Berman appeal, which was submitted at the end of December.

 

[satch]

If the 2015 data proved their case against Brady, it would have been noted in the NFL's response brief in the Berman appeal, which was submitted at the end of December.

Therefore, we can only conclude that the data from 2015's spot checks supports the Patriots claim that their footballs were within specs at kickoff, and the ideal gas law is to blame for those balls being under specs at halftime. Thus, the NFL is burying the data.

 

[sho nuff]

If the 2015 data proved their case against Brady, it would have been noted in the NFL's response brief in the Berman appeal, which was submitted at the end of December.

Therefore, we can only conclude that the data from 2015's spot checks supports the Patriots claim that their footballs were within specs at kickoff, and the ideal gas law is to blame for those balls being under specs at halftime. Thus, the NFL is burying the data.

So you believe they are involved in a big conspiracy involving quite a lot of people who took these measurements?

Though, I guess that is not a far fetched as believing the Pats ball boys were deflating balls just to make them legal again because those mean ol refs overinflated them.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

If the 2015 data proved their case against Brady, it would have been noted in the NFL's response brief in the Berman appeal, which was submitted at the end of December.

Therefore, we can only conclude that the data from 2015's spot checks supports the Patriots claim that their footballs were within specs at kickoff, and the ideal gas law is to blame for those balls being under specs at halftime. Thus, the NFL is burying the data.

So you believe they are involved in a big conspiracy involving quite a lot of people who took these measurements?

Though, I guess that is not a far fetched as believing the Pats ball boys were deflating balls just to make them legal again because those mean ol refs overinflated them.

Conspiracy? I don't know about that.

Weren't there quite a lot of NFL people who knew almost immediately that the Kensil\ESPN PSI report was incorrect\a smear? Did they quickly publish the correct information that could have virtually killed this whole thing in the crib before the inaccurate info turned it into a raging wild fire? No they didn't, so spare us the NFL would never do that stuff when you know in fact they already have.

While we r on the not too far fetched shtick, not too hard to believe Aaron Rodgers & Co struggled this year at least in part because they couldn't cheat anymore (he already admitted they were over inflating footballs) Had Brady's performance fallen off like Rodgers you and others would be screaming from the roof tops, but when its an admitted cheater

 

[sho nuff]

If the 2015 data proved their case against Brady, it would have been noted in the NFL's response brief in the Berman appeal, which was submitted at the end of December.

Therefore, we can only conclude that the data from 2015's spot checks supports the Patriots claim that their footballs were within specs at kickoff, and the ideal gas law is to blame for those balls being under specs at halftime. Thus, the NFL is burying the data.

So you believe they are involved in a big conspiracy involving quite a lot of people who took these measurements?

Though, I guess that is not a far fetched as believing the Pats ball boys were deflating balls just to make them legal again because those mean ol refs overinflated them.

Conspiracy? I don't know about that.

Weren't there quite a lot of NFL people who knew almost immediately that the Kensil\ESPN PSI report was incorrect\a smear? Did they quickly publish the correct information that could have virtually killed this whole thing in the crib before the inaccurate info turned it into a raging wild fire? No they didn't, so spare us the NFL would never do that stuff when you know in fact they already have.

While we r on the not too far fetched shtick, not too hard to believe Aaron Rodgers & Co struggled this year at least in part because they couldn't cheat anymore (he already admitted they were over inflating footballs) Had Brady's performance fallen off like Rodgers you and others would be screaming from the roof tops, but when its an admitted cheater

First off...it would have to be a conspiracy if information that is now supposedly destroyed proved anything...you would be keeping multiple people quiet...

As for far fetched schtick..nice deflection.

Have any evidence that he cheated? You know, altered balls after inspection? Or are you still taking his tongue in cheek answers how he blew off the question about ball inflation.

Thought this thread was about Brady and the pats...not about a player who was never investigated for wrongdoing.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Yeah, its crazy to think the NFL league would hide information, thats just pats fan partisan crazy talk

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/02/05/kessler-questions-leagues-decision-not-to-release-psi-data/

“Right now they are intentionally, for whatever reason, keeping the world in the dark. And I think the world can draw their own conclusions about that.”

The conclusion this corner of the world draws is that the information would show that, at best, the data collected at halftime of the 2014 AFC title game was inconclusive as to whether air was intentionally removed from the footballs.

“Why wouldn’t you publish it? Why wouldn’t you say, here’s a study? Here’s what we learned from our collection of data?” Kessler said. “But that’s where we are.”

The NFL blew a chance to fully understand a phenomenon that, as executive V.P. of football operations Troy Vincent admitted while testifying before Commissioner Roger Goodell in the Brady appeal, the league previously didn’t comprehend: Changes to internal air pressure based on the weather. But the league likely realized that a comprehensive study would tend to exonerate Brady and the Patriots as to the question of whether cheating happened in connection with the playoff game against the Colts.

While that doesn’t make troubling text messages exchanged between Jim McNally and John Jastremski any less troubling, the NFL concluded that the Patriots cheatedon that day. A full-blown PSI study would likely show that they didn’t. Regardless of what the NFL would say about it, that’s why the study wasn’t done.

 

[satch]

If the 2015 data proved their case against Brady, it would have been noted in the NFL's response brief in the Berman appeal, which was submitted at the end of December.

Therefore, we can only conclude that the data from 2015's spot checks supports the Patriots claim that their footballs were within specs at kickoff, and the ideal gas law is to blame for those balls being under specs at halftime. Thus, the NFL is burying the data.

So you believe they are involved in a big conspiracy involving quite a lot of people who took these measurements?

Though, I guess that is not a far fetched as believing the Pats ball boys were deflating balls just to make them legal again because those mean ol refs overinflated them.

Not much of a conspiracy. Blandino already admitted they are currently evaluating the data, flying in the face of Goodell saying they didn't keep the data.To your second point, you may recall a text from Dorito Dink regarding Brady being pretty upset after a Jets game because the balls were excessively over-inflated by the refs. Why is it so hard to believe that any deflation by the Pats ball boys was only to get them back to the 12.5 they were at prior to the refs unnecessarily inflating them on occasion? Brady has proven that he plays at his usual high level with footballs within legal specs. What evidence is there that Brady plays better with balls below 12.5?

I wouldn't classify them as "mean ol refs" as you did. I don't think the refs were out to get the Pats. I just think they were inconsistent and sloppy. I don't think the refs took psi very seriously, didn't use gauges, and inflated/deflated footbalks based on feel. I think this annoyed Brady so he told his guys to present the balls at 12.5, and if the refs inflate them bring them back down to 12.5. If the refs approve them as they should, do nothing.

I've stated about a hundred times that I think the Pats violated an equipment rule. My point here is that I believe the intent of said violation was to keep the balls within the low end of legal specs, not below. The data and ideal gas law support this theory. The NFL witholding the 2015 season long data also supports this theory.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

If the 2015 data proved their case against Brady, it would have been noted in the NFL's response brief in the Berman appeal, which was submitted at the end of December.

Therefore, we can only conclude that the data from 2015's spot checks supports the Patriots claim that their footballs were within specs at kickoff, and the ideal gas law is to blame for those balls being under specs at halftime. Thus, the NFL is burying the data.

So you believe they are involved in a big conspiracy involving quite a lot of people who took these measurements?

Though, I guess that is not a far fetched as believing the Pats ball boys were deflating balls just to make them legal again because those mean ol refs overinflated them.

Conspiracy? I don't know about that.

Weren't there quite a lot of NFL people who knew almost immediately that the Kensil\ESPN PSI report was incorrect\a smear? Did they quickly publish the correct information that could have virtually killed this whole thing in the crib before the inaccurate info turned it into a raging wild fire? No they didn't, so spare us the NFL would never do that stuff when you know in fact they already have.

While we r on the not too far fetched shtick, not too hard to believe Aaron Rodgers & Co struggled this year at least in part because they couldn't cheat anymore (he already admitted they were over inflating footballs) Had Brady's performance fallen off like Rodgers you and others would be screaming from the roof tops, but when its an admitted cheater

First off...it would have to be a conspiracy if information that is now supposedly destroyed proved anything...you would be keeping multiple people quiet...

As for far fetched schtick..nice deflection.

Have any evidence that he cheated? You know, altered balls after inspection? Or are you still taking his tongue in cheek answers how he blew off the question about ball inflation.

Thought this thread was about Brady and the pats...not about a player who was never investigated for wrongdoing.

First off, as the PFT article points out, it is hardly far fetched to acknowledge what the nfl is doing.

Ya, tongue and cheek, sure, whatever u say.

Yes, I have evidence Rodgers cheated HE BRAGGED ABOUT IT.

The thread is about a PSI investigation and Aaron Rodgers bragging\admitting he was intentionally over inflating balls is certainly worth discussing; don't ya think. He is not being investigated at least in part because he hasn't had anywhere near the success Brady has had. For example; Rodgers has played in 1 Conf Champ in the last 5 years while Brady has played in 5 straight. One has 4 SB wins and one has 1, one has played in SIX SBs and the other just the ONE; you see where this is going, it's hard to hate a lovable loser.

The fact that Brady played as well as ever and Rodgers performance deteriorated so badly now that he can't intentionally over inflate the ball certainly seems relevant to me.

You don't want to believe Rodgers cheated even though he already admitted it and you certainly don't want to believe his poor play had anything to do with him not being allowed to cheat anymore. It all depends on whose OX is being gored.

When you seemingly take such pleasure in throwing excrement & stones, you ought not be surprised to see some come right back at ya

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

If the 2015 data proved their case against Brady, it would have been noted in the NFL's response brief in the Berman appeal, which was submitted at the end of December.

Therefore, we can only conclude that the data from 2015's spot checks supports the Patriots claim that their footballs were within specs at kickoff, and the ideal gas law is to blame for those balls being under specs at halftime. Thus, the NFL is burying the data.

So you believe they are involved in a big conspiracy involving quite a lot of people who took these measurements?

Though, I guess that is not a far fetched as believing the Pats ball boys were deflating balls just to make them legal again because those mean ol refs overinflated them.

Conspiracy? I don't know about that.

Weren't there quite a lot of NFL people who knew almost immediately that the Kensil\ESPN PSI report was incorrect\a smear? Did they quickly publish the correct information that could have virtually killed this whole thing in the crib before the inaccurate info turned it into a raging wild fire? No they didn't, so spare us the NFL would never do that stuff when you know in fact they already have.

While we r on the not too far fetched shtick, not too hard to believe Aaron Rodgers & Co struggled this year at least in part because they couldn't cheat anymore (he already admitted they were over inflating footballs) Had Brady's performance fallen off like Rodgers you and others would be screaming from the roof tops, but when its an admitted cheater

You regularly meet my expectations. Thank you.

 

[sho nuff]

If the 2015 data proved their case against Brady, it would have been noted in the NFL's response brief in the Berman appeal, which was submitted at the end of December.

Therefore, we can only conclude that the data from 2015's spot checks supports the Patriots claim that their footballs were within specs at kickoff, and the ideal gas law is to blame for those balls being under specs at halftime. Thus, the NFL is burying the data.

So you believe they are involved in a big conspiracy involving quite a lot of people who took these measurements?

Though, I guess that is not a far fetched as believing the Pats ball boys were deflating balls just to make them legal again because those mean ol refs overinflated them.

Conspiracy? I don't know about that.

Weren't there quite a lot of NFL people who knew almost immediately that the Kensil\ESPN PSI report was incorrect\a smear? Did they quickly publish the correct information that could have virtually killed this whole thing in the crib before the inaccurate info turned it into a raging wild fire? No they didn't, so spare us the NFL would never do that stuff when you know in fact they already have.

While we r on the not too far fetched shtick, not too hard to believe Aaron Rodgers & Co struggled this year at least in part because they couldn't cheat anymore (he already admitted they were over inflating footballs) Had Brady's performance fallen off like Rodgers you and others would be screaming from the roof tops, but when its an admitted cheater

First off...it would have to be a conspiracy if information that is now supposedly destroyed proved anything...you would be keeping multiple people quiet...

As for far fetched schtick..nice deflection.

Have any evidence that he cheated? You know, altered balls after inspection? Or are you still taking his tongue in cheek answers how he blew off the question about ball inflation.

Thought this thread was about Brady and the pats...not about a player who was never investigated for wrongdoing.

First off, as the PFT article points out, it is hardly far fetched to acknowledge what the nfl is doing.

Ya, tongue and cheek, sure, whatever u say.

Yes, I have evidence Rodgers cheated HE BRAGGED ABOUT IT.

The thread is about a PSI investigation and Aaron Rodgers bragging\admitting he was intentionally over inflating balls is certainly worth discussing; don't ya think. He is not being investigated because he hasn't had anywhere near the success Brady has had; for ex Rodgers has played in 1 Conf Champ in the last 5 years while Brady has played in 5 straight. One guy has 4 SB wins and one guy has 1, one has played in SIX SBs and the other just the ONE; you see where this is going, it's hard to hate a lovable loser.

The fact that Brady played as well as ever and Rodgers performance deteriorated so badly now that he can't intentionally over inflate the ball certainly seems relevant to me.

You don't want to believe Rodgers cheated even though he already admitted it and you certainly don't want to believe his poor play had anything to do with him not being allowed to cheat anymore. It all depends on whose OX is being gored.

When you seemingly take such pleasure in throwing stones, you ought not be surprised to see a few come right back at ya

The refs not catching it is not cheating...altering them after inspection is.

You think balls are relevant but not missing Jordy Nelson?

Ok, troll on and keep up the good pats defense...Your stones are weak though...very weak.

 

[satch]

If the 2015 data proved their case against Brady, it would have been noted in the NFL's response brief in the Berman appeal, which was submitted at the end of December.

Therefore, we can only conclude that the data from 2015's spot checks supports the Patriots claim that their footballs were within specs at kickoff, and the ideal gas law is to blame for those balls being under specs at halftime. Thus, the NFL is burying the data.

So you believe they are involved in a big conspiracy involving quite a lot of people who took these measurements?

Though, I guess that is not a far fetched as believing the Pats ball boys were deflating balls just to make them legal again because those mean ol refs overinflated them.

Conspiracy? I don't know about that.

Weren't there quite a lot of NFL people who knew almost immediately that the Kensil\ESPN PSI report was incorrect\a smear? Did they quickly publish the correct information that could have virtually killed this whole thing in the crib before the inaccurate info turned it into a raging wild fire? No they didn't, so spare us the NFL would never do that stuff when you know in fact they already have.

While we r on the not too far fetched shtick, not too hard to believe Aaron Rodgers & Co struggled this year at least in part because they couldn't cheat anymore (he already admitted they were over inflating footballs) Had Brady's performance fallen off like Rodgers you and others would be screaming from the roof tops, but when its an admitted cheater

First off...it would have to be a conspiracy if information that is now supposedly destroyed proved anything...you would be keeping multiple people quiet...

As for far fetched schtick..nice deflection.

Have any evidence that he cheated? You know, altered balls after inspection? Or are you still taking his tongue in cheek answers how he blew off the question about ball inflation.

Thought this thread was about Brady and the pats...not about a player who was never investigated for wrongdoing.

First off, as the PFT article points out, it is hardly far fetched to acknowledge what the nfl is doing.

Ya, tongue and cheek, sure, whatever u say.

Yes, I have evidence Rodgers cheated HE BRAGGED ABOUT IT.

The thread is about a PSI investigation and Aaron Rodgers bragging\admitting he was intentionally over inflating balls is certainly worth discussing; don't ya think. He is not being investigated because he hasn't had anywhere near the success Brady has had; for ex Rodgers has played in 1 Conf Champ in the last 5 years while Brady has played in 5 straight. One guy has 4 SB wins and one guy has 1, one has played in SIX SBs and the other just the ONE; you see where this is going, it's hard to hate a lovable loser.

The fact that Brady played as well as ever and Rodgers performance deteriorated so badly now that he can't intentionally over inflate the ball certainly seems relevant to me.

You don't want to believe Rodgers cheated even though he already admitted it and you certainly don't want to believe his poor play had anything to do with him not being allowed to cheat anymore. It all depends on whose OX is being gored.

When you seemingly take such pleasure in throwing stones, you ought not be surprised to see a few come right back at ya

The refs not catching it is not cheating...altering them after inspection is.

That's weak. The legal specs are 12.5-13.5. Aaron Rodgers sneaks 15.0 psi balls past the refs and that's not cheating because he didn't get caught?

 

[sho nuff]

That's weak. The legal specs are 12.5-13.5. Aaron Rodgers sneaks 15.0 psi balls past the refs and that's not cheating because he didn't get caught?

Not weak...its factual.

15 psi...now that is not factual.

Say a guy likes to block a certain way that is holding if the refs see it...is that cheating?

Had it just been...hey, we submitted a few balls low and the refs didn't catch it til later...do you think it would have been what it was?

Or was it bigger because they hid it, deflated balls after inspection which was actually against the rules?

Trying to still compare those too shows how desperate you all are for someone else to be busted.

But yes...submitting a ball outside of specs is not cheating. Altering a ball after inspection is.

Its a pretty simple concept.

 

[satch]

That's weak. The legal specs are 12.5-13.5. Aaron Rodgers sneaks 15.0 psi balls past the refs and that's not cheating because he didn't get caught?

Not weak...its factual.

15 psi...now that is not factual.

Say a guy likes to block a certain way that is holding if the refs see it...is that cheating?

Had it just been...hey, we submitted a few balls low and the refs didn't catch it til later...do you think it would have been what it was?

Or was it bigger because they hid it, deflated balls after inspection which was actually against the rules?

Trying to still compare those too shows how desperate you all are for someone else to be busted.

But yes...submitting a ball outside of specs is not cheating. Altering a ball after inspection is.

Its a pretty simple concept.

Still weak. Very weak. Not a doubt in my mind that if it were revealed that Tom Brady had been sneaking underinflated balls past the refs you and everyone else would csll it cheating. It's laughable to think otherwise.

 

[sho nuff]

That's weak. The legal specs are 12.5-13.5. Aaron Rodgers sneaks 15.0 psi balls past the refs and that's not cheating because he didn't get caught?

Not weak...its factual.

15 psi...now that is not factual.

Say a guy likes to block a certain way that is holding if the refs see it...is that cheating?

Had it just been...hey, we submitted a few balls low and the refs didn't catch it til later...do you think it would have been what it was?

Or was it bigger because they hid it, deflated balls after inspection which was actually against the rules?

Trying to still compare those too shows how desperate you all are for someone else to be busted.

But yes...submitting a ball outside of specs is not cheating. Altering a ball after inspection is.

Its a pretty simple concept.

Still weak. Very weak. Not a doubt in my mind that if it were revealed that Tom Brady had been sneaking underinflated balls past the refs you and everyone else would csll it cheating. It's laughable to think otherwise.

Not really...just a poor opinion on your part of what people would think.

THe problem with it has always been altering them after inspection, and the obstruction of the investigation.

Pats and Pats fans have come up with all sorts of stupid excuses.

-the deflator was called that because he was losing weight.

-now we get that the ball boys were just bringing the weight down to specs because the refs overinflated.

The Rodgers thing is just piss poor deflection.

And now we know that facts are just considered weak to you all.

 

[davearm]

Put another way:

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at the same time as the Pats balls? None that I'm aware of.

Correct, no one other than you is trying to claim otherwise.

Are there any credible sources claiming the Colts balls were measured at a different time than the Pats balls? Again, none that I'm aware of.

The Patriots have stated it as fact and I am not aware of anyone claiming otherwise (other than you).

For example page 8 of the AE report

"The report also notes that halftime was scheduled to last 13 minutes and that the Colts balls were measured toward the very end of that window, when they ran out of time. We can therefore infer that the Colts balls were tested after being indoors for a period of a bit less than 15 minutes. The first of the Patriots balls was measured right at the beginning of halftime, followed by the others" https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/On-the-Wells-report.pdf

I suppose one could make the argument that the AE study "inferred" that the Colts balls were indoors while waiting to be tested rather than claiming it as fact. But the fact of the matter is the Wells report itself (page 5) already states that as fact.

"At the start of halftime, the game balls from each team were brought into the Officials Locker Room, each team’s balls in their own respective bags. During the halftime period, the air pressure of 11 Patriots footballs and four Colts footballs were measured. The measurements were taken by Clete Blakeman and Dyrol Prioleau"

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

Here is a pretty good analysis from an MIT professor (I could easily provide more and you are welcome to submit counter analysis from some other source if you like, but I don't think it exists) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwxXsEltyas (@DW this video addresses some other factors you mentioned such as rain, wear and tear etc)

So counter to what you originally claimed (IE, the reason I took exception to your original post), there are no questionable assumptions with regard to when the Colts balls were tested and where they were kept prior to the testing.

I concede that some of the deflategate evidence may not be on the Patriots side, but the science is.

The question of the timing of the measurements (or more specifically, the temps of the footballs when measured) is simultaneously critical to the conclusion, and very much uncertain. Whatever guesses we make about the amount of time that elapsed between measuring the Pats' balls and the Colts' balls are just that -- guesses.

I really think you need to go back and re-read my posts. I'm not advocating for either side, and despite your repeated insistence otherwise, I don't have any reason for wishful\hopeful thinking one way or another.

My only motivation here is to correct the misguided notion that the science points squarely to one conclusion or another. It simply does not.

Dave,

I am not challenging the opinion that the timing of the measurements is critical (I agree).

I am not challenging the opinion that the "exact" amount of time between the 1st ball tested and the last is not known(I agree).

I am challenging your original claim that both sets of balls might have been tested at the "same time" because it is demonstrably untrue.

Can you concede the point that the two sets of balls were not tested at the same time?

As to your motivation, I don't know; when you originally posted you honestly may not have known that the order of testing was not in question. However now you do know.

When I say tested at the same time, I'm not implying all 15 balls simultaneously. Obviously thats physically impossible in that environment. I'm describing a scenario where two guys sit down and start gauging balls, and they don't stop until all 15 balls have been measured and recorded.I'm contrasting that with a scenario where two guys gauge the Pats balls, then get up and walk around, take a piss, grab a sandwich, then suddenly think, hey we outta gauge the Colts balls too.

I think we agree that a) we don't know which of these scenarios actually occurred, and b) the scientific result would be different in the two scenarios.

 

[Tool]

Kessler questions league’s decision not to release PSI data

Posted by Mike Florio on February 5, 2016, 10:28 AM EST
Getty ImagesThe NFL periodically collected football air-pressure data this season, not to understand the science but to check for violations of the rules. Attorney Jeffrey Kessler, who has been instrumental in the fight against Tom Brady’s four-game #DeflateGate suspension, doesn’t understand why the league is being so secretive about the information.

““They haven’t even publicly revealed, do they record temperature?” Kessler told Ben Volin of the Boston Globe. “Do they record the humidity or whether it’s raining or not? Do they look at any of the information that every scientist agrees you would have to know in order to make any evaluation on this? And when did they do it? Have they done it at the beginning of the games only? Did they do it at halftime? Did they do it at the end of the games? How are the balls selected?

“Right now they are intentionally, for whatever reason, keeping the world in the dark. And I think the world can draw their own conclusions about that.”

The conclusion this corner of the world draws is that the information would show that, at best, the data collected at halftime of the 2014 AFC title game was inconclusive as to whether air was intentionally removed from the footballs.

“Why wouldn’t you publish it? Why wouldn’t you say, here’s a study? Here’s what we learned from our collection of data?” Kessler said. “But that’s where we are.”

The NFL blew a chance to fully understand a phenomenon that, as executive V.P. of football operations Troy Vincent admitted while testifying before Commissioner Roger Goodell in the Brady appeal, the league previously didn’t comprehend: Changes to internal air pressure based on the weather. But the league likely realized that a comprehensive study would tend to exonerate Brady and the Patriots as to the question of whether cheating happened in connection with the playoff game against the Colts.

While that doesn’t make troubling text messages exchanged between Jim McNally and John Jastremski any less troubling, the NFL concluded that the Patriots cheated on that day. A full-blown PSI study would likely show that they didn’t. Regardless of what the NFL would say about it, that’s why the study wasn’t done.

 

[DropKick]

That's weak. The legal specs are 12.5-13.5. Aaron Rodgers sneaks 15.0 psi balls past the refs and that's not cheating because he didn't get caught?

Not weak...its factual.

15 psi...now that is not factual.

Say a guy likes to block a certain way that is holding if the refs see it...is that cheating?

Had it just been...hey, we submitted a few balls low and the refs didn't catch it til later...do you think it would have been what it was?

Or was it bigger because they hid it, deflated balls after inspection which was actually against the rules?

Trying to still compare those too shows how desperate you all are for someone else to be busted.

But yes...submitting a ball outside of specs is not cheating. Altering a ball after inspection is.

Its a pretty simple concept.

Still weak. Very weak. Not a doubt in my mind that if it were revealed that Tom Brady had been sneaking underinflated balls past the refs you and everyone else would csll it cheating. It's laughable to think otherwise.

Not really...just a poor opinion on your part of what people would think.

THe problem with it has always been altering them after inspection, and the obstruction of the investigation.

Pats and Pats fans have come up with all sorts of stupid excuses.

-the deflator was called that because he was losing weight.

-now we get that the ball boys were just bringing the weight down to specs because the refs overinflated.

The Rodgers thing is just piss poor deflection.

And now we know that facts are just considered weak to you all.

Rodgers candidly said they experimented with what they could get away with... This tells us a couple things - first, the refs weren't consistent regarding PSI measurement and that Rodgers would willingly play will an illegal ball IF he could get away with it.

I don't have a problem with Brady or Rodgers but Rodgers did knowingly play with a ball out of specification and took advantage of the referee's negligence to do so...

You argument is blame it on the ref - I just have a different moral compass than you apparently.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Intentionally over inflating footballs is cheating (IE, you have a BIG advantage), similar to putting a piece of metal under your uniform. It is laughable to suggest that just because the ref doesn't catch it then it can't be cheating. Is it the same level of cheating as alleged post inspection ball manipulation, no of course not, but it is still cheating.

While on the subject of facts, Rodgers and the packers bragged that they regularly, intentionally played with an illegal ball that gave them an advantage, that is fact. Rodgers dramatic drop off in performance when forced to play with a legal ball is also fact. Is this undeniable, documented cheating as bad as alleged post inspection ball tinkering, hell no. However, if its really about integrity of the game and preventing teams from gaining an unfair advantage it is a text book example of cheating. Maybe next year Rodgers will become more proficient playing with a legal ball and his number will improve, but maybe they won't

 

[sho nuff]

That's weak. The legal specs are 12.5-13.5. Aaron Rodgers sneaks 15.0 psi balls past the refs and that's not cheating because he didn't get caught?

Not weak...its factual.

15 psi...now that is not factual.

Say a guy likes to block a certain way that is holding if the refs see it...is that cheating?

Had it just been...hey, we submitted a few balls low and the refs didn't catch it til later...do you think it would have been what it was?

Or was it bigger because they hid it, deflated balls after inspection which was actually against the rules?

Trying to still compare those too shows how desperate you all are for someone else to be busted.

But yes...submitting a ball outside of specs is not cheating. Altering a ball after inspection is.

Its a pretty simple concept.

Still weak. Very weak. Not a doubt in my mind that if it were revealed that Tom Brady had been sneaking underinflated balls past the refs you and everyone else would csll it cheating. It's laughable to think otherwise.

Not really...just a poor opinion on your part of what people would think.

THe problem with it has always been altering them after inspection, and the obstruction of the investigation.

Pats and Pats fans have come up with all sorts of stupid excuses.

-the deflator was called that because he was losing weight.

-now we get that the ball boys were just bringing the weight down to specs because the refs overinflated.

The Rodgers thing is just piss poor deflection.

And now we know that facts are just considered weak to you all.

Rodgers candidly said they experimented with what they could get away with... This tells us a couple things - first, the refs weren't consistent regarding PSI measurement and that Rodgers would willingly play will an illegal ball IF he could get away with it.

I don't have a problem with Brady or Rodgers but Rodgers did knowingly play with a ball out of specification and took advantage of the referee's negligence to do so...

You argument is blame it on the ref - I just have a different moral compass than you apparently.

Moral compass?

You guys are funny.

 

[sho nuff]

Intentionally over inflating footballs is cheating (IE, you have a BIG advantage), similar to putting a piece of metal under your uniform. It is laughable to suggest that just because the ref doesn't catch it then it can't be cheating. Is it the same level of cheating as alleged post inspection ball manipulation, no of course not, but it is still cheating.

While on the subject of facts, Rodgers and the packers bragged that they regularly, intentionally played with an illegal ball that gave them an advantage, that is fact. Rodgers dramatic drop off in performance when forced to play with a legal ball is also fact. Is this undeniable, documented cheating as bad as alleged post inspection ball tinkering, hell no. However, if its really about integrity of the game and preventing teams from gaining an unfair advantage it is a text book example of cheating. Maybe next year Rodgers will become more proficient playing with a legal ball and his number will improve, but maybe they won't

 

[Bayhawks]

Intentionally over inflating footballs is cheating (IE, you have a BIG advantage), similar to putting a piece of metal under your uniform. It is laughable to suggest that just because the ref doesn't catch it then it can't be cheating. Is it the same level of cheating as alleged post inspection ball manipulation, no of course not, but it is still cheating.

While on the subject of facts, Rodgers and the packers bragged that they regularly, intentionally played with an illegal ball that gave them an advantage, that is fact. Rodgers dramatic drop off in performance when forced to play with a legal ball is also fact. Is this undeniable, documented cheating as bad as alleged post inspection ball tinkering, hell no. However, if its really about integrity of the game and preventing teams from gaining an unfair advantage it is a text book example of cheating. Maybe next year Rodgers will become more proficient playing with a legal ball and his number will improve, but maybe they won't

The biggest assumption being made here is that Rodgers played this season with differently inflated (legal) footballs this year. How can we assume this, really? Goodell admitted all they did was spot checks this year. The safer assumption, IMO would be that these spot checks were likely to have been in NE games.I don't think there's enough to support the assumption that Rodgers played with football's that may not have matched his preference. I think a safer assumption would be that Brady was more likely to have had to play with football's outside his preference. Since he played well this year, I think its also safe to say the ball inflation has a minimal impact on performance.

What is relevant (to this tangent of the thread, at least) is that when Brady lost his main WR (Edelman), his performance dipped, just as Rodgers did when he lost Nelson. IMO, that's not a coincidence.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

We can agree to disagree on the "I don't think there's enough to support the assumption that Rodgers played with football's that may not have matched his preference"

We don't really need to "assume" Rodgers & Co couldn't over inflate (IE cheat) anymore, we know for a fact that the NFL changed its policy on handling the balls and the pre game ball measurements are now being recorded AND monitored by the league office. The ability to sneak over inflated (IE cheat) balls past pre game inspection has been virtually, if not entirely eliminated. Rodgers admitted his preference for the ball was to be over inflated and now that is virtually impossible for his guys to pull off. To try and pretend there is not enough to support the conclusion that Rodgers had to play this year with balls that weren't to his preference is silly and it flys in the face of all logic, but like I said we can agree to disagree.

We know Brady plays as good or better with a legal ball; I think we can all agree that we don't know that (yet) about Rodgers since he obviously hasn't. We will see how he plays next year, maybe he can adjust better to playing with a legal ball, maybe he can't.

 

[sho nuff]

Logic is Rodgers joked that sometimes he liked to put a bit more in some balls and see if the refs caught it.

Pats fan logic is that Rodgers overunflated every ball to cheat every game and his play was worse this year because he couldnt do it.

 

[Old Smiley]

You have been trolled. Have a nice day.

 

[JuniorNB]

Any updates on how The Deflator's weight loss is coming along?

 

[Bayhawks]

We can agree to disagree on the "I don't think there's enough to support the assumption that Rodgers played with football's that may not have matched his preference"

We don't really need to "assume" Rodgers & Co couldn't over inflate (IE cheat) anymore, we know for a fact that the NFL changed its policy on handling the balls and the pre game ball measurements are now being recorded AND monitored by the league office. The ability to sneak over inflated (IE cheat) balls past pre game inspection has been virtually, if not entirely eliminated. Rodgers admitted his preference for the ball was to be over inflated and now that is virtually impossible for his guys to pull off. To try and pretend there is not enough to support the conclusion that Rodgers had to play this year with balls that weren't to his preference is silly and it flys in the face of all logic, but like I said we can agree to disagree.

We know Brady plays as good or better with a legal ball; I think we can all agree that we don't know that (yet) about Rodgers since he obviously hasn't. We will see how he plays next year, maybe he can adjust better to playing with a legal ball, maybe he can't.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't Goodell specifically say they DID NOT check the balls before each game, but that they conducted "spot checks," unannounced? By definition, an unannounced spot check wouldn't occur before EVERY game.

If that's true, then we absolutely do not know that Rodgers couldn't have been playing with an over-inflated ball, because perhaps they submitted over-inflated balls, and those were in games where a "spot check" wasn't conducted. That's my 1st point.

My 2nd point is that since Goodell seems to have a hard-on for Brady, I'd feel safer assuming more spot checks occurred for NE games than GB games.

My 3rd point is that I believe Rodgers losing his best WR, and a key to GB's offense, hurt him more than the inflation of the football, just as when Brady lost his best WR, and a key to NE's offense, he did much worse.

There's no silliness or ignoring of logic on my part. If I'm mistaken, and the spot-check comment was mis-reported, taken out of context, etc, my 1st & 2nd points would not apply, but I'm still of the opinion that the PSI of the footballs has a minimal impact on QBs (other than being a mental thing), and the loss of their best WRs hurt Rodgers and Brady much more than the PSI did. Ignoring that fact is silly, and flies in the face of logic, IMO.

 

[Old Smiley]

Any updates on how The Deflator's weight loss is coming along?

Well, his life's been made pretty awful, so that could have gone either way, I guess.

 

[davearm]

We can agree to disagree on the "I don't think there's enough to support the assumption that Rodgers played with football's that may not have matched his preference"

We don't really need to "assume" Rodgers & Co couldn't over inflate (IE cheat) anymore, we know for a fact that the NFL changed its policy on handling the balls and the pre game ball measurements are now being recorded AND monitored by the league office. The ability to sneak over inflated (IE cheat) balls past pre game inspection has been virtually, if not entirely eliminated. Rodgers admitted his preference for the ball was to be over inflated and now that is virtually impossible for his guys to pull off. To try and pretend there is not enough to support the conclusion that Rodgers had to play this year with balls that weren't to his preference is silly and it flys in the face of all logic, but like I said we can agree to disagree.

We know Brady plays as good or better with a legal ball; I think we can all agree that we don't know that (yet) about Rodgers since he obviously hasn't. We will see how he plays next year, maybe he can adjust better to playing with a legal ball, maybe he can't.

Providing gameballs to the officials that are inflated out of spec isn't a violation of any rule that I'm aware of.

Can you show us the rule Rodgers/Packers broke?

 

[satch]

We can agree to disagree on the "I don't think there's enough to support the assumption that Rodgers played with football's that may not have matched his preference"

We don't really need to "assume" Rodgers & Co couldn't over inflate (IE cheat) anymore, we know for a fact that the NFL changed its policy on handling the balls and the pre game ball measurements are now being recorded AND monitored by the league office. The ability to sneak over inflated (IE cheat) balls past pre game inspection has been virtually, if not entirely eliminated. Rodgers admitted his preference for the ball was to be over inflated and now that is virtually impossible for his guys to pull off. To try and pretend there is not enough to support the conclusion that Rodgers had to play this year with balls that weren't to his preference is silly and it flys in the face of all logic, but like I said we can agree to disagree.

We know Brady plays as good or better with a legal ball; I think we can all agree that we don't know that (yet) about Rodgers since he obviously hasn't. We will see how he plays next year, maybe he can adjust better to playing with a legal ball, maybe he can't.

Providing gameballs to the officials that are inflated out of spec isn't a violation of any rule that I'm aware of.

Can you show us the rule Rodgers/Packers broke?

Rule 2, Section 1 of the NFL Rule Book:"The Ball must be a Wilson, hand selected, bearing the signature of the Commissioner of the League, Roger Goodell.

The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12 1/2 to 13 1/2 pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case (natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight shall be: long axis, 11 to 11 1/4 inches; long circumference, 28 to 28 1/2 inches; short circumference, 21 to 21 1/4 inches; weight, 14 to 15 ounces.

The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball attendant just prior to the start of the game."

Rodgers/Packers knowingly and intentionally used footballs inflated over the maximum allowable psi. That's the rule they broke. The fact that the refs didn't catch them doesn't mean they didn't do it. Are you suggesting that it's only cheating if you get caught?