Patriots could be in trouble all over again... (1 Viewer)

[Ministry of Pain]

USA Today Link

Pats offensive? NFL must examine potential new violation

SPYGATE CONTROVERSY

USA TODAY

The NFL received eight videotapes from Matt Walsh on Thursday as the extended investigation of the New England Patriots' Spygate story continues and perhaps moves in a different direction.

Part of the story is what wasn't among the tapes — there was no record of the St. Louis Rams' walk-through on the day before their loss to the Patriots in Super Bowl XXXVI in 2002.

But there is a tape that apparently contains offensive signals, though the NFL has said it punished the Patriots for its improper taping of other teams' defensive signals.

The tapes from Walsh, a former Patriots videographer who now works as a golf pro in Hawaii, are of games from the seasons of 2000-02. His attorney, Michael Levy, said Walsh never claimed to have a videotape of the Rams' walk-through at the Louisiana Superdome on the day before their eventual 20-17 loss to the underdog Patriots.

The NFL penalized the Patriots in September with $750,000 fines and the loss of a first-round draft pick for improperly filming opponents' defensive signals.

The package from Walsh contains one tape marked to indicate it contains the Miami Dolphins' offensive signals from an Oct. 7, 2001 game against the Patriots.

"One of the tapes is labeled that way. Until we review it, we don't know what's there," NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said. The rule violated by the Patriots, he said, prohibited taping of any signals, offensive or defensive.

In the NFL's April 23 statement on reaching an agreement with Walsh to come forward with his materials and meet with commissioner Roger Goodell, the league never mentioned any offensive signals. Its statement said: "Commissioner Goodell determined last September that the Patriots had violated league rules by videotaping opposing coaches' defensive signals during Patriots games throughout Bill Belichick's tenure as head coach."

Aiello said Goodell and his staff would look at the tapes and discuss them after Walsh's visit to New York on Tuesday. Walsh is then planning to meet in Washington, D.C., with Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), who has been critical of the NFL's handling of its inquiry and the destruction of tapes previously received from the Patriots.

Walsh, his attorney said, did not provide information for a story that appeared in the Boston Herald alleging the Patriots had taped the St. Louis Rams' walk-through practice the day before New England's 20-17 victory in Super Bowl XXXVI in 2002.

That report landed the Saturday before the Patriots' loss to the New York Giants in Super Bowl XLII in February.

It led to protracted negotiations between Walsh and the league, with the NFL extending certain legal protections to Walsh in exchange for him turning over videotapes and speaking to Goodell.

"Mr. Walsh was not the source for the Herald's story. He has never claimed to have a tape of the walk-through," said Levy.

The Patriots were originally caught after Week 1 of the 2007 season when they were found to be taping New York Jets' signals on the sideline. Coach Bill Belichick said he misinterpreted the NFL rule against this practice but he incurred a $500,000 fine and the team had to pay $250,000 and give up what turned out to be the 31st overall selection in the April draft.

The Patriots also were ordered to turn over all such tapes and notes to the NFL, which reviewed them and destroyed them after one was leaked to Fox Sports.

The taping incidents, nicknamed Spygate, generated controversy throughout the season as the Patriots compiled an unbeaten record until losing in the Super Bowl.

The allegations of cheating and whether they tarnished the team's three Super Bowl victories have been issues Specter says he wants to address.

"I think it is very unfortunate that the NFL has already started its 'nothing new' spin before watching the tapes or finding out what Mr. Matt Walsh has to say. Let?s see where the evidence leads," Specter said in a statement.

 

[gianmarco]

MOP, I really appreciate your input here at FBG, but did this really need a new thread? Can this please be moved to the 2 threads dealing with this overdue issue?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

MOP, I really appreciate your input here at FBG, but did this really need a new thread? Can this please be moved to the 2 threads dealing with this overdue issue?

This just was printed in the last couple of hours. I certainly don't mind if the mods want to move this thread or merge it, but I thought earlier today that the story lost steam because there was no St Louis Rams walkthrough...you click a couple of hours later and USA Today is running with this story.

 

[greenroom]

This is a new issue so why bury it??

 

[David Yudkin]

I still feel think the media is going out of their way to keep this in the forefront. I doubt we will see anything happen from the latest tapes. The speculation and wish by many to nail the Pats seems to be getting out of hand (and only serves to promote Specter's agenda).

I think people are citing what Goodell said (he only mentioned defensive signals) and drawing conclusions that may not be there. BB has said he told the league that the team engaged in taping games/signals/coaches from Day 1 in NE. I'm not sure that there is a whole lot new happening here (and so far the league seems to echo that sentiment since the new tapes were handed over).

Obviously we will learn more, but the league doesn't seem to be too phased about the latest batch of stuff.

 

[sfl49er]

I dont really think the Patriots will get punished [by the League] anymore because of the new tapes. Hopefully I'm wrong, but if not, I will always know, that their Karma came back to bite them with a vengeance on that last drive of the SuperBowl. It will live forever that Karma. While all that time they were cheating, the other teams were out there working hard to get better the right way. And the dividends will pay off for those teams: the Jets teams, the Chargers teams, the teams like the Vikings, the Eagles, Bucs, and all those other classy teams. And the Pats are on their way down hill this year because of their past relations... And thats the Patriots' future for ya

 

[AB in DC]

The only real news here is that teams still used hand signals on offense as recently as 2000, maybe a decade after teams were regularly using radio.

Of course, this is the Miami Dolphins we're talking about, but still.

 

[Andy Herron]

This is nothing new at all, and brings no real new relevations at all.

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

The only thing "new" is that they now have tape(s) of it.

 

[massraider]

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

Do you have a link to this?

 

[Andy Herron]

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

Do you have a link to this?

A link? If nobody remembers it's their own fault. It was last September.

 

[massraider]

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

Do you have a link to this?

A link? If nobody remembers it's their own fault. It was last September.

Fair enough. I, for one, remember nothing like that.I don't even know why I posted. I am so sick of this story.

 

[DropKick]

I dont really think the Patriots will get punished [by the League] anymore because of the new tapes. Hopefully I'm wrong, but if not, I will always know, that their Karma came back to bite them with a vengeance on that last drive of the SuperBowl. It will live forever that Karma. While all that time they were cheating, the other teams were out there working hard to get better the right way. And the dividends will pay off for those teams: the Jets teams, the Chargers teams, the teams like the Vikings, the Eagles, Bucs, and all those other classy teams. And the Pats are on their way down hill this year because of their past relations... And thats the Patriots' future for ya

Thanks... I showed my kids this post and now they finally fully appreciate the dangers of substance abuse.

 

[Andy Herron]

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

Do you have a link to this?

A link? If nobody remembers it's their own fault. It was last September.

Fair enough. I, for one, remember nothing like that.I don't even know why I posted. I am so sick of this story.

So am I, and I haven't even partaken in the other thread. I just jumped in here because it was new. As it turned out, only the thread itself was new.The bottom line is, what the hell makes the difference if they were taping offensive or defensive signals?I mean really! In Belichick's admission to Goodell last year, he mentioned both. Claiming ignorance to the whole clarification to the rule.His point more or less being, everybody's in plain sight anyway, where does the stealing part come in?Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending ANYBODY here.My point, however, is that "to date" there is nothing to relegate further charges against the Patriots.These eight tapes bring no new evidence whatsoever, it's only more evidence to support the charges already brought forth.If this is all that comes to light, it's done.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

http://www.courant.com/sports/football/pat...story?track=rss

When the Patriots were penalized for videotaping Jets defensive signals in the season opener last September, Belichick claimed he had misinterpreted the rule and told NFL commissioner Roger Goodell that he had taped defensive signals of opposing coaches throughout his coaching tenure. However, Belichick did not admit to taping offensive signals to Goodell according to a league official.

 

[Andy Herron]

http://www.courant.com/sports/football/pat...story?track=rss

When the Patriots were penalized for videotaping Jets defensive signals in the season opener last September, Belichick claimed he had misinterpreted the rule and told NFL commissioner Roger Goodell that he had taped defensive signals of opposing coaches throughout his coaching tenure. However, Belichick did not admit to taping offensive signals to Goodell according to a league official.

Nice.But then if you read on-

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello contradicted that statement by Wednesday telling the Associated Press: "This is consistent with what the Patriots had admitted they had been doing, consistent with what we already knew."

 

[Ministry of Pain]

http://www.courant.com/sports/football/pat...story?track=rss

When the Patriots were penalized for videotaping Jets defensive signals in the season opener last September, Belichick claimed he had misinterpreted the rule and told NFL commissioner Roger Goodell that he had taped defensive signals of opposing coaches throughout his coaching tenure. However, Belichick did not admit to taping offensive signals to Goodell according to a league official.

GD I love this place sometimes...

 

[fatness]

I still feel think the media is going out of their way to keep this in the forefront.

It has more to do with the NFL (because it involves the fundamental issue of a level playing field for teams) than do the boneheaded actions of individual players which are constantly in the news. Nobody objects to those stories, people eat them up.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

http://www.courant.com/sports/football/pat...story?track=rss

When the Patriots were penalized for videotaping Jets defensive signals in the season opener last September, Belichick claimed he had misinterpreted the rule and told NFL commissioner Roger Goodell that he had taped defensive signals of opposing coaches throughout his coaching tenure. However, Belichick did not admit to taping offensive signals to Goodell according to a league official.

Nice.But then if you read on-

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello contradicted that statement by Wednesday telling the Associated Press: "This is consistent with what the Patriots had admitted they had been doing, consistent with what we already knew."

The consistency is the fact that Walsh had some tapes of coaching signals and the plays on the field, which they understood.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

http://www.courant.com/sports/football/pat...story?track=rss

When the Patriots were penalized for videotaping Jets defensive signals in the season opener last September, Belichick claimed he had misinterpreted the rule and told NFL commissioner Roger Goodell that he had taped defensive signals of opposing coaches throughout his coaching tenure. However, Belichick did not admit to taping offensive signals to Goodell according to a league official.

Nice.But then if you read on-

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello contradicted that statement by Wednesday telling the Associated Press: "This is consistent with what the Patriots had admitted they had been doing, consistent with what we already knew."

The consistency is the fact that Walsh had some tapes of coaching signals and the plays on the field, which they understood.

Furthermore you said he had admitted to it, and yet there is a link saying he did not admit to it. Regardless of what the league understood of Walsh.

 

[Andy Herron]

My gosh, you guys are digging for gold that's not there.

A "league source" you're quoting, while I'm quoting NFL spokesman Greg Aiello who directly contradicts it.

Believe who you want to believe.

Meanwhile, regardless of who's right or wrong, back to my initial point-

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

Is there a separate crime here?

No.

Gavel-next case.

 

[fatness]

The NFL is unable to keep their story straight.

However, Belichick did not admit to taping offensive signals to Goodell according to a league official. "It's like we said in the statement, it had to do with [the Patriots] taping defensive signals," the official said last month.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello contradicted that statement by Wednesday telling the Associated Press: "This is consistent with what the Patriots had admitted they had been doing, consistent with what we already knew."

But when the agreement was announced April 23 that Walsh would hand over videotapes and other documents to the league, the statement released by the NFL that day specified that Belichick had only taped defensive signals.

"Commissioner Goodell determined last September that the Patriots had violated league rules by videotaping opposing coaches' defensive signals during the Patriots games throughout Bill Belichick's tenure as head coach," the statement said. "Coach Belichick admitted to his use of the taping practice on a regular basis as a result of what he said was his misinterpretation of the rule."

 

[BigSteelThrill]

My gosh, you guys are digging for gold that's not there.

A "league source" you're quoting, while I'm quoting NFL spokesman Greg Aiello who directly contradicts it.

Believe who you want to believe.

Meanwhile, regardless of who's right or wrong, back to my initial point-

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

Is there a separate crime here?

No.

Patriot homers. Make sure you take note of yourselves.Ready?

If Walsh had new information, Goodell reiterated that he was committed to seeing it.

"If it's just taping of defensive signals, we know that," Goodell said April 2 at the NFL's annual meeting in Palm Beach, Fla. "The Patriots admitted to that. He seems to imply that he has something different and certainly something I would be concerned with if it's true. So, I'd like to see the evidence."

http://www.montereyherald.com/sports/ci_9191542

 

[Bri]

The rule pertains to defensive or offensive signals

So you think of it is treated as two different rules? They violated one then another?

BB has admitted to the taping over years, they've been penalized for the taping.

I don't get it.

 

[fatness]

September 14, 2007

New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for spying on an opponent's defensive signals.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The rule pertains to defensive or offensive signals

So you think of it is treated as two different rules? They violated one then another?

BB has admitted to the taping over years, they've been penalized for the taping.

I don't get it.

This is nothing new at all, and brings no real new relevations at all.

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

The only thing "new" is that they now have tape(s) of it.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

September 14, 2007

New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for spying on an opponent's defensive signals.

 

[Andy Herron]

My gosh, you guys are digging for gold that's not there.

A "league source" you're quoting, while I'm quoting NFL spokesman Greg Aiello who directly contradicts it.

Believe who you want to believe.

Meanwhile, regardless of who's right or wrong, back to my initial point-

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

Is there a separate crime here?

No.

Patriot homers. Make sure you take note of yourselves.Ready?

If Walsh had new information, Goodell reiterated that he was committed to seeing it.

"If it's just taping of defensive signals, we know that," Goodell said April 2 at the NFL's annual meeting in Palm Beach, Fla. "The Patriots admitted to that. He seems to imply that he has something different and certainly something I would be concerned with if it's true. So, I'd like to see the evidence."

http://www.montereyherald.com/sports/ci_9191542

Hello?????????????????????????????They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

-not a Patriots fan. Only a fan of common sense.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Hello?????????????????????????????/

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

-not a Patriots fan. Only a fan of common sense.

Changed your story.

This is nothing new at all, and brings no real new relevations at all.

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

The only thing "new" is that they now have tape(s) of it.

 

[Andy Herron]

Hello?????????????????????????????/

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

-not a Patriots fan. Only a fan of common sense.

Changed your story.

This is nothing new at all, and brings no real new relevations at all.

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

The only thing "new" is that they now have tape(s) of it.

Where did I change my story?And what are you drinking or smoking?

A judge would throw you out of court. Where is this "new" information?

Offense? Defense? So what?

They were taping...period. No new crime.

 

[Road Warriors]

My gosh, you guys are digging for gold that's not there.

A "league source" you're quoting, while I'm quoting NFL spokesman Greg Aiello who directly contradicts it.

Believe who you want to believe.

Meanwhile, regardless of who's right or wrong, back to my initial point-

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

Is there a separate crime here?

No.

Patriot homers. Make sure you take note of yourselves.Ready?

If Walsh had new information, Goodell reiterated that he was committed to seeing it.

"If it's just taping of defensive signals, we know that," Goodell said April 2 at the NFL's annual meeting in Palm Beach, Fla. "The Patriots admitted to that. He seems to imply that he has something different and certainly something I would be concerned with if it's true. So, I'd like to see the evidence."

http://www.montereyherald.com/sports/ci_9191542

Hello?????????????????????????????They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

-not a Patriots fan. Only a fan of common sense.

If you're a fan of common sense, you really need to stay out of these threads. There is no common sense allowed in here.

 

[Andy Herron]

The rule pertains to defensive or offensive signalsSo you think of it is treated as two different rules? They violated one then another?BB has admitted to the taping over years, they've been penalized for the taping. I don't get it.

Oh, you get it just fine Bri, it's just that most of these others don't.They're too busy looking for the highest tree to hang Belichick from.

 

[fatness]

A Decade of Sins Deserves a Year Out (NY Times sports column today)

Now that the “totality of conduct” for which Belichick was cited by Goodell has officially expanded to the length of his tenure in New England, shouldn’t he be further punished as a serial offender, a con man who not only broke the rules but established secretly taping opponents as standard operating procedure?

Augmented by logic, the facts suggest Belichick has been cheating for almost a decade. And since replacing Paul Tagliabue, Goodell has fashioned himself the zero-tolerance commissioner, cracking down hard on those — players, that is — who would compromise the runaway popularity of the league with antisocial acts. Shouldn’t that policy be applied even more stringently to those in control?

“They need to send a message here,” Stoll said.

One year out. Then let’s see Belichick dare spy again in 2009.

 

[Andy Herron]

My gosh, you guys are digging for gold that's not there.

A "league source" you're quoting, while I'm quoting NFL spokesman Greg Aiello who directly contradicts it.

Believe who you want to believe.

Meanwhile, regardless of who's right or wrong, back to my initial point-

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

Is there a separate crime here?

No.

Patriot homers. Make sure you take note of yourselves.Ready?

If Walsh had new information, Goodell reiterated that he was committed to seeing it.

"If it's just taping of defensive signals, we know that," Goodell said April 2 at the NFL's annual meeting in Palm Beach, Fla. "The Patriots admitted to that. He seems to imply that he has something different and certainly something I would be concerned with if it's true. So, I'd like to see the evidence."

http://www.montereyherald.com/sports/ci_9191542

Hello?????????????????????????????They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

-not a Patriots fan. Only a fan of common sense.

If you're a fan of common sense, you really need to stay out of these threads. There is no common sense allowed in here.

Fair point. I'll take it under advisement.Thanks.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Hello?????????????????????????????/

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

-not a Patriots fan. Only a fan of common sense.

Changed your story.

This is nothing new at all, and brings no real new relevations at all.

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

The only thing "new" is that they now have tape(s) of it.

Where did I change my story?And what are you drinking or smoking?

A judge would throw you out of court. Where is this "new" information?

Offense? Defense? So what?

They were taping...period. No new crime.

The commissioner himself stated that the case was about just defensive signals, and if there is something more he would be concerned. Is there more then defensive signals? Yes. Thus we have something new.

 

[Andy Herron]

Hello?????????????????????????????/

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

-not a Patriots fan. Only a fan of common sense.

Changed your story.

This is nothing new at all, and brings no real new relevations at all.

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

The only thing "new" is that they now have tape(s) of it.

Where did I change my story?And what are you drinking or smoking?

A judge would throw you out of court. Where is this "new" information?

Offense? Defense? So what?

They were taping...period. No new crime.

The commissioner himself stated that the case was about just defensive signals, and if there is something more he would be concerned. Is there more then defensive signals? Yes. Thus we have something new.

Hey, if it makes you feel better, keep your rope handy.Just don't plan on using it.

 

[Road Warriors]

Hello?????????????????????????????/

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

-not a Patriots fan. Only a fan of common sense.

Changed your story.

This is nothing new at all, and brings no real new relevations at all.

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

The only thing "new" is that they now have tape(s) of it.

Where did I change my story?And what are you drinking or smoking?

A judge would throw you out of court. Where is this "new" information?

Offense? Defense? So what?

They were taping...period. No new crime.

The commissioner himself stated that the case was about just defensive signals, and if there is something more he would be concerned. Is there more then defensive signals? Yes. Thus we have something new.

Hey, if it makes you feel better, keep your rope handy.Just don't plan on using it.

You think this is a rope crowd? I always envision torches and pitchforks. Better mob mentality.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

You came back to say that?

I didn't say anything more would happen with punishment.

But Im also not a liar, like...

Andy Herron = "Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year."

Andy Herron = "A link? If nobody remembers it's their own fault."

You actually threw an insult at people who didnt remember your made up story. Failed to provide a link. And have yet to apologize.

... which is what got me to post into this thread. And now you play the Patriots are the victim card.

BTW: Where did you find that lap dog following you around?

 

[jurb26]

Hello?????????????????????????????/

They taped signals. What makes the difference if they were offensive or defensive or both?

-not a Patriots fan. Only a fan of common sense.

Changed your story.

This is nothing new at all, and brings no real new relevations at all.

Belichick admitted to both offensive and defensive signals last year.

The only thing "new" is that they now have tape(s) of it.

Where did I change my story?And what are you drinking or smoking?

A judge would throw you out of court. Where is this "new" information?

Offense? Defense? So what?

They were taping...period. No new crime.

The commissioner himself stated that the case was about just defensive signals, and if there is something more he would be concerned. Is there more then defensive signals? Yes. Thus we have something new.

Hey, if it makes you feel better, keep your rope handy.Just don't plan on using it.

You think this is a rope crowd? I always envision torches and pitchforks. Better mob mentality.

It's pretty funny how outlandish people have become when talking about the Pats the last few years. It's so bad that there is really no way to even take these people seriously on the topic anymore.

 

[David Yudkin]

A Decade of Sins Deserves a Year Out (NY Times sports column today)

Now that the “totality of conduct” for which Belichick was cited by Goodell has officially expanded to the length of his tenure in New England, shouldn’t he be further punished as a serial offender, a con man who not only broke the rules but established secretly taping opponents as standard operating procedure?

Augmented by logic, the facts suggest Belichick has been cheating for almost a decade. And since replacing Paul Tagliabue, Goodell has fashioned himself the zero-tolerance commissioner, cracking down hard on those — players, that is — who would compromise the runaway popularity of the league with antisocial acts. Shouldn’t that policy be applied even more stringently to those in control?

“They need to send a message here,” Stoll said.

One year out. Then let’s see Belichick dare spy again in 2009.

I guess people missed out on the part where the penalty levied against NE was for all infractions from 2000-2007. If they weren't prepared to suspend BB for a year then, I doubt that they will now.I think people also forget that the league is prepared to move on, and I nbelieve the Commish and 31 other owenrs feel the same way. It's the media, Specter, and some Patriot haters that are really looking to twist the knife when the league itself pretty much has put this behind them already.

While anything is possible, I still have a hard time seeing the NFL inflict more damage on NE unless there are really a ton of other new information/evidence.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

A Decade of Sins Deserves a Year Out (NY Times sports column today)

Now that the “totality of conduct” for which Belichick was cited by Goodell has officially expanded to the length of his tenure in New England, shouldn’t he be further punished as a serial offender, a con man who not only broke the rules but established secretly taping opponents as standard operating procedure?

Augmented by logic, the facts suggest Belichick has been cheating for almost a decade. And since replacing Paul Tagliabue, Goodell has fashioned himself the zero-tolerance commissioner, cracking down hard on those — players, that is — who would compromise the runaway popularity of the league with antisocial acts. Shouldn’t that policy be applied even more stringently to those in control?

“They need to send a message here,” Stoll said.

One year out. Then let’s see Belichick dare spy again in 2009.

I guess people missed out on the part where the penalty levied against NE was for all infractions from 2000-2007. If they weren't prepared to suspend BB for a year then, I doubt that they will now.I think people also forget that the league is prepared to move on, and I nbelieve the Commish and 31 other owenrs feel the same way. It's the media, Specter, and some Patriot haters that are really looking to twist the knife when the league itself pretty much has put this behind them already.

While anything is possible, I still have a hard time seeing the NFL inflict more damage on NE unless there are really a ton of other new information/evidence.

For me, I guess I was naive to the point where I thought when they got caught cheating, it was a one time deal, or maybe something they just started.If they've cheated since 2002, a football fan really needs to sit back and wonder just how good this team/dynasty really was/is.

I'm disappointed in the coach and for me, he'll never be mentioned in the same breaths as Vince Lombardi and the very best all time coaches.

I'm going to look into what was his winning/losing record prior to 2002 or whenever he was first alledged to be taping other teams signals.

 

[munchkin]

I dont really think the Patriots will get punished [by the League] anymore because of the new tapes. Hopefully I'm wrong, but if not, I will always know, that their Karma came back to bite them with a vengeance on that last drive of the SuperBowl. It will live forever that Karma. While all that time they were cheating, the other teams were out there working hard to get better the right way. And the dividends will pay off for those teams: the Jets teams, the Chargers teams, the teams like the Vikings, the Eagles, Bucs, and all those other classy teams. And the Pats are on their way down hill this year because of their past relations... And thats the Patriots' future for ya

So what did Buffalo and Minnesota do to create the bad Karma that caused them to lose in the Super Bowls as often as they did? How about those early Bronco's teams? Did Oakland (Jack Tatum) create good Karma by paralyzing Darryl Stingley? Your theory is ridiculous and Polyanish.

 

[Workhorse]

We need a "grasping at straws" emoticon...

 

[fatness]

I guess people missed out on the part where the penalty levied against NE was for all infractions from 2000-2007. If they weren't prepared to suspend BB for a year then, I doubt that they will now.I think people also forget that the league is prepared to move on, and I believe the Commish and 31 other owenrs feel the same way. It's the media, Specter, and some Patriot haters that are really looking to twist the knife when the league itself pretty much has put this behind them already.

I think you need to step back and see the bigger picture. The NFL has tried to put a basket over this whole cheating fiasco, to show the football public nothing but their own version of events and their own assurances. The basket isn't airtight any more, the NFL no longer controls the flow of information completely, and as more information is available more people are expressing skepticism about the entire show --- the full extent of what happened and the actions of the NFL to hide what happened. The NFL has lost control of the flow of information, and cannot regain it. Walsh will meet with them with a lawyer present, Walsh (I believe) is not forbidden (by threat of lawsuit) to talk about, this topic will not go away simply because they NFL wishes it to, others may come forward. The basket is off. What needs to occur is the opposite of what the NFL has been trying. Things need to be fully aired in public. Everything needs to be visible to the public. Then and only then can an appropriate course of conduct (penalties or no, rule changes or not, etc.) be decided upon by the NFL. They cannot credibly determine in advance the extent of the information and the extent of any necessary remedial or punitive actions. They haven't even heard all the evidence yet. They tried for a long time to prevent someone from giving them evidence, in fact. Once it's all done and visible to the public, and any appropriate actions are taken if necessary, the NFL will begin restoring the faith of the growing number of football fans who pay the NFL's bill and who love the game for what it is, or is supposed to be --- an honest athletic competition and the best game on earth. The NFL cannot "control" their way into restoring faith.

 

[phthalatemagic]

We need a "grasping at straws" emoticon...

This one: works pretty good for you guys

 

[mdog1967]

This is a new issue so why bury it??

I wonder if yo can actually see the FM signals transmitting through the air from the coaches head set to the QB's?

 

[David Yudkin]

A Decade of Sins Deserves a Year Out (NY Times sports column today)

Now that the “totality of conduct” for which Belichick was cited by Goodell has officially expanded to the length of his tenure in New England, shouldn’t he be further punished as a serial offender, a con man who not only broke the rules but established secretly taping opponents as standard operating procedure?

Augmented by logic, the facts suggest Belichick has been cheating for almost a decade. And since replacing Paul Tagliabue, Goodell has fashioned himself the zero-tolerance commissioner, cracking down hard on those — players, that is — who would compromise the runaway popularity of the league with antisocial acts. Shouldn’t that policy be applied even more stringently to those in control?

“They need to send a message here,” Stoll said.

One year out. Then let’s see Belichick dare spy again in 2009.

I guess people missed out on the part where the penalty levied against NE was for all infractions from 2000-2007. If they weren't prepared to suspend BB for a year then, I doubt that they will now.I think people also forget that the league is prepared to move on, and I nbelieve the Commish and 31 other owenrs feel the same way. It's the media, Specter, and some Patriot haters that are really looking to twist the knife when the league itself pretty much has put this behind them already.

While anything is possible, I still have a hard time seeing the NFL inflict more damage on NE unless there are really a ton of other new information/evidence.

For me, I guess I was naive to the point where I thought when they got caught cheating, it was a one time deal, or maybe something they just started.If they've cheated since 2002, a football fan really needs to sit back and wonder just how good this team/dynasty really was/is.

I'm disappointed in the coach and for me, he'll never be mentioned in the same breaths as Vince Lombardi and the very best all time coaches.

I'm going to look into what was his winning/losing record prior to 2002 or whenever he was first alledged to be taping other teams signals.

The Pats and BB have openly admitted to "cheating" since BB got there in 2000. A lot of the bru-ha-ha and venom being spewed at NE stems from a lot of people not being fully aware of the exact rules that the NFL has set up and what practices are generally being conducted by NFL franchises. I for one certainly am not fully aware of the exactitude of the rules either (as the full rule book is very hard to come by).From what I can tell, it IS NOT illegal to videotape games/coaches/signals on game day. I believe there are set procedures to be able to do this which involves getting permission from the league, the home team or opposition, and having cameras positioned in certain spots of the stadium (which I believe is behind the end zone). I also believe that the information/tape gathered is supposed to be for future scouting and strategizing and teams are not allowed to use it/look at it during the game. However, teams need to follow protocols and get permission to do some things that otherwise would be deemed "illegal" but from what I can tell 99% of the time permission is granted.

By rule, I also believe that teams are prohibited from using anything but still cameras at any other point of the stadium on game day if they want to actually use that during the game. But I also believe that teams could easily use a "regular" camera with a speed winder and do exactly what NE was doing and conform to the league rules. (So instead of having a videotape to match up signs, they would have a series of still shots to show the same thing.) That's why we always see shots of snapshots of formations and alignments getting send to the bench for coaches to come up with tweaks and adjustments to their game plan.

The main thrust and intent of the taping rule is that the league did not want the game day video to be evaluated and used DURING the game. The Patriots contend that whatever they did they put together later to be used in future games and future game planning, and from my limited background working with multiple streams of audio and video I tend to believe that to be true. From the tapes Walsh turned over, it has been reported that they appear to be cut and edited all over the place and put together in a manner that clearly shows that they were edited and not just live footage . . . meaning the tapes Walsh had weren't used on game day. I suppose we can't rule out that the raw footage wasn't somehow used on game day, but the tapes Walsh had were dated past the date of the games played.

While we are getting a clearer picture of what NE has been doing, we still don't know what other teams have been doing. So other teams could very have their own form of spying and espionage going on. While there will be some out there that will adamently deny this, to think that 31 other teams are completely innocent are naive. Similarly, there are many other ways to try to bend or break the rules and over the years several teams have been accused of or caught doing things that somehow did not conform to the rules. I am reminded of a line in The Sting, where one of the characters loses in a poker game and asks what was he supposed to do, accuse the winner of cheating better than he did.

To that end, Goodell had to send a memo out to all the teams because the espionage and one upsmanship had gotten out of hand demanded that teams cease and desist the cloak and dagger methods of signal stealing. Even in his review and punishment of NE, he indicates that all teams know that they are getting watched in one form of another and teams would be stupid to not rotate or change their signals. He also said there were tapes of coaches waving to the Pats video personnel, so clearly they knew they were being taped. To which I ask, if there was this playful manner of waving to cameramen and teams knew that they were being taped, where was the outrage fromt he teams being taped? Wouldn't you suspect that once a team found out that they were getting taped that they would go screaming to the league office and demand action be taken against NE? I would contend that most teams were doing something similar and thus there was a sense of honor among thieves if you will.

I guess people may not be fully aware that the information the Pats gathered could have been gathered in other ways and then aligning notes and video and audio of line calls/audibles from tv broadcasts and what not could have been assembled in other ways with almost the same exact package of intel to use later on.

So IMO, yes, the Patriots cheated. The question becomes how best to assess that. In driving terms, is it on par with driving 56 in a 55 mph zone or is it a DUI while driving 85 and crashing and killing a family of 4. Or in accounting terms, is it the same as taking a couple extra deductions on your taxes (say taking off $750 in charitable deductions when you didn't donate anything) or is it equivalent to the Enron scandal that cost people thei life savings.

The biggest question being raised is how much of a competitive advantage did NE gain by embarking on the path they chose to travel. Clearly if they were doing it for 7 seasons they must have gained some sort of an advantage. But it seems like the main thing they did improperly was taping from the wrong place in the stadium with a camera that was not fully cleared to be used. I could be way off base in understanding what exactly they were written up for, but as far as I can tell that's the main thing. So again to use a driving analogy, is parking in a handicapped space worthy of a lengthy jail sentence? Or should that be considered illegal parking but the 100th violation and maybe that merits a jail sentence.

Over the many months that Spygate has gone on, I believe Goodell and the 31 other owners have put this behind them but Specter and the media continue to try to keep this in the news when IMO the NFL really has no desire to do anything further barring a major revelation that the Pats were doing some completely different and terrible things (stealing transmissions, blocking use of transmitting equipment, hiding a video camera in the opposition's locker room, buying other team's playbooks, etc.).

So IMO wanting to erase what they have done since 2000 seems a bit of an overreaction, but people can decide for themselves what they feel about the NE organization . . .

 

[BusMan]

I don't believe these new revelations will trigger any new penalties on the Patriots. But if anything were to be punished, it might have something to do with the offensive signal taping, if Belichick didn't explicitly confess to Goodell that he had taped offensive signals. IIRC, Goodell had Belichick sign a statement that he had forked over everything that had happened. If he hadn't mentioned the offensive taping (which is possible but not likely) Goodell could be a bit chapped by Belichick's untruthfulness. But even if thats the case, I don't believe its a new crime deserving additional punishment.

 

[mdog1967]

I guess people missed out on the part where the penalty levied against NE was for all infractions from 2000-2007. If they weren't prepared to suspend BB for a year then, I doubt that they will now.

I think people also forget that the league is prepared to move on, and I believe the Commish and 31 other owenrs feel the same way. It's the media, Specter, and some Patriot haters that are really looking to twist the knife when the league itself pretty much has put this behind them already.

I think you need to step back and see the bigger picture. The NFL has tried to put a basket over this whole cheating fiasco, to show the football public nothing but their own version of events and their own assurances. The basket isn't airtight any more, the NFL no longer controls the flow of information completely, and as more information is available more people are expressing skepticism about the entire show --- the full extent of what happened and the actions of the NFL to hide what happened. The NFL has lost control of the flow of information, and cannot regain it. Walsh will meet with them with a lawyer present, Walsh (I believe) is not forbidden (by threat of lawsuit) to talk about, this topic will not go away simply because they NFL wishes it to, others may come forward. The basket is off. What needs to occur is the opposite of what the NFL has been trying. Things need to be fully aired in public. Everything needs to be visible to the public. Then and only then can an appropriate course of conduct (penalties or no, rule changes or not, etc.) be decided upon by the NFL. They cannot credibly determine in advance the extent of the information and the extent of any necessary remedial or punitive actions. They haven't even heard all the evidence yet. They tried for a long time to prevent someone from giving them evidence, in fact.

Once it's all done and visible to the public, and any appropriate actions are taken if necessary, the NFL will begin restoring the faith of the growing number of football fans who pay the NFL's bill and who love the game for what it is, or is supposed to be --- an honest athletic competition and the best game on earth. The NFL cannot "control" their way into restoring faith.

Thank you Fatness for attempting to hold up the integrity of the Sports Entertainment industry all by your self.You really need to drop the hyperbole with the "Faith of the Football Fans" crap.

It would be more honest to say I HATE THE PATS.

The NFL is not an honest athletic competition.

 

[Banger]

I don't see the big difference between taping offensive signals and defensive signals. Taping is taping and he got punished for taping during the period that this occurred. Nothing will come of this.

 

[ScottyFargo]

I guess people missed out on the part where the penalty levied against NE was for all infractions from 2000-2007. If they weren't prepared to suspend BB for a year then, I doubt that they will now.I think people also forget that the league is prepared to move on, and I believe the Commish and 31 other owenrs feel the same way. It's the media, Specter, and some Patriot haters that are really looking to twist the knife when the league itself pretty much has put this behind them already.

I think you need to step back and see the bigger picture. The NFL has tried to put a basket over this whole cheating fiasco, to show the football public nothing but their own version of events and their own assurances. The basket isn't airtight any more, the NFL no longer controls the flow of information completely, and as more information is available more people are expressing skepticism about the entire show --- the full extent of what happened and the actions of the NFL to hide what happened. The NFL has lost control of the flow of information, and cannot regain it. Walsh will meet with them with a lawyer present, Walsh (I believe) is not forbidden (by threat of lawsuit) to talk about, this topic will not go away simply because they NFL wishes it to, others may come forward. The basket is off. What needs to occur is the opposite of what the NFL has been trying. Things need to be fully aired in public. Everything needs to be visible to the public. Then and only then can an appropriate course of conduct (penalties or no, rule changes or not, etc.) be decided upon by the NFL. They cannot credibly determine in advance the extent of the information and the extent of any necessary remedial or punitive actions. They haven't even heard all the evidence yet. They tried for a long time to prevent someone from giving them evidence, in fact. Once it's all done and visible to the public, and any appropriate actions are taken if necessary, the NFL will begin restoring the faith of the growing number of football fans who pay the NFL's bill and who love the game for what it is, or is supposed to be --- an honest athletic competition and the best game on earth. The NFL cannot "control" their way into restoring faith.

Good post.That is the most offensive thing to me. The fact that it was so quickly resolved, and the evidence destroyed, and the penalty (harsh as it was) handed out without further elaboration beyond what little was said. The repeated attempts to discredit Walsh, the belief that they only had to admit to the defensive signal calling and trying in vain to keep it under a lid how long this had been going on. Then Walsh came forward, Specter questions Goodell and more information is set forth. And still people act like this is normal practice, that Walsh didn't provide any service to interested parties here.

"It first came up when Goodell talked to me, that it had been going on since the year 2000," Specter recently told ESPN.com. "No one has ever said why the discrepancy. I don't know how clearly it was articulated that the first they knew about it was when they saw the Jets taping. That all has been fuzzy, ambiguous. "I want to know everything. I would begin chronologically. When did the first taping occur? Who directed it? And who knew about it? Who participated in it? And what use was made of it? And what effect did it have on the game?" Arlen Specter

If Arlen Specter's "agenda" is full disclosure, then I am all for it.I completely agree with you, fatness, this was such a big deal that it needed to be aired out and examined so that there was no question of wrongdoing on Goodell's part.