Patriots could be in trouble all over again... (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

I guess people missed out on the part where the penalty levied against NE was for all infractions from 2000-2007. If they weren't prepared to suspend BB for a year then, I doubt that they will now.I think people also forget that the league is prepared to move on, and I believe the Commish and 31 other owenrs feel the same way. It's the media, Specter, and some Patriot haters that are really looking to twist the knife when the league itself pretty much has put this behind them already.

I think you need to step back and see the bigger picture. The NFL has tried to put a basket over this whole cheating fiasco, to show the football public nothing but their own version of events and their own assurances. The basket isn't airtight any more, the NFL no longer controls the flow of information completely, and as more information is available more people are expressing skepticism about the entire show --- the full extent of what happened and the actions of the NFL to hide what happened. The NFL has lost control of the flow of information, and cannot regain it. Walsh will meet with them with a lawyer present, Walsh (I believe) is not forbidden (by threat of lawsuit) to talk about, this topic will not go away simply because they NFL wishes it to, others may come forward. The basket is off. What needs to occur is the opposite of what the NFL has been trying. Things need to be fully aired in public. Everything needs to be visible to the public. Then and only then can an appropriate course of conduct (penalties or no, rule changes or not, etc.) be decided upon by the NFL. They cannot credibly determine in advance the extent of the information and the extent of any necessary remedial or punitive actions. They haven't even heard all the evidence yet. They tried for a long time to prevent someone from giving them evidence, in fact. Once it's all done and visible to the public, and any appropriate actions are taken if necessary, the NFL will begin restoring the faith of the growing number of football fans who pay the NFL's bill and who love the game for what it is, or is supposed to be --- an honest athletic competition and the best game on earth. The NFL cannot "control" their way into restoring faith.

I think the NFL feels a sense of autonomy to police itself and operate within it's own community without the need for outside interference.If as you suggest the public and the media effectively want the Patriots to stand completely naked, if I'm New England I would say you need to then make 31 other teams stand naked before the masses as well.My concern is that even if the tapes are presented to the media/public, who's to say that whatever is contained on those tapes is fully against the rules, something that other teams don't also have in their closets, or otherwise would not set the other 31 teams into a frenzy. If the NFL doesn't care what's on the tapes or basically comes out and says there's nothing provocative on them, the public will still scream when others are not. Also, if the commissioner has already ruled on the matter and that's not good enough in the eyes of the public, is it the public's place to run the NFL, and if so, why bother having a commissioner.There have been so many people clamoring to punish those that break the rules, but over the years there have been so many teams or players that have broken the rules that a case could be made that on a daily basis things happen that go against the integrity and moral fiber of the game.For example, if a coach/owner knows one of his players is using steroids, HGH, or performance enhancing drugs isn't that cheating? Should teams have to turn in their own players? How about intentionally misreporting injuries? Teaching your players to chop block? Salary cap abuses? Turning air conditioning on or off during field goal attempts? Sneaking into other teams practices? Tampering with free agents? Taalking to players/agents still under contract? The list goes on and on.To be clear, I am not saying what the Patriots did was fair and just, but I am suggesting that a lot goes on across the NFL and the Patriots are taking the heat for the entire league. I suggested that what Goodell should have done if he wanted to be the gun toting sheriff is investigate all 32 franchises and levy punishment for a wide range of infractions to clean up the league. I understand the Pats got caught and they got penalized, but I suspect there are several teams doing things that are improper and if we want to air out dirty laundry in public let's air out ALL the dirty laundry in public not just one team's. If not, let's get back to the NFL as it's been (self-regulating) and move on.

 

[Bossman]

 

[fatness]

To be clear, I am not saying what the Patriots did was fair and just, but I am suggesting that a lot goes on across the NFL and the Patriots are taking the heat for the entire league.

It's more likely the other way around. The league's credibility is suffering in part due to what the Patriots did, and in part due to the NFL's bad handling of it so far.

 

[Road Warriors]

If Arlen Specter's "agenda" is full disclosure, then I am all for it.I completely agree with you, fatness, this was such a big deal that it needed to be aired out and examined so that there was no question of wrongdoing on Goodell's part.

I have no faith whatsoever that Specter's agenda has anything to do with full disclosure. I'm convinced his agenda is solely rooted in embarassing / pressuring the NFL into favorable terms for Comcast with regards to NFLN. But that's not really the point here.I also agree with the idea that the manner in which this was handled by the league office was terrible, and is the primary reason this issue is still around today. Going on the assumption that what the tapes contained was what has been reported ( raw footage of coaches signals, pan up to clock for down & distance, repeat ), I would bet that if the NFL put together a 15-30 sec clip of that, including a shot of the opposition coaches waving back to the camera, and let that out to the media, then followed it up with the same penalty, this would have gone away. The public would have had some view into what was done, the NFL could have easily described why the taping was a violation ( location -- ie. access to the tape during play ) and issued a statement of how now rules transgressions, no matter how small, will be tolerated. The cloak & dagger, nothing to see here, destroying evidence tack was one of the worst PR maneuvers I've seen in quite some time. It not only didn't accomplish what the NFL wanted, to have the issue go away quietly, it in fact turned the spotlight on the issue 10x brighter. From what I've heard this time around, that is the plan of attack... Meet with Walsh, meet with the media, show some footage from the tapes. Let everyone see what all this has been about, then move on. It probably won't satisfy some number of people that would like to see the NE franchise hurt further, but I expect that this will come to a fairly quiet end soon. It's time to get back to football.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Wow. Taping offensive signals. Who the hell was still using offensive signals as opposed to the communication devise to talk to the QB? Unless you tell me that the Patriots were blocking transmissions forcing the opposition to use hand signals and then stealing them, then this is not exactly a revelation. Stealing teams offensive signals would be genius since it would be unlikely that they would change those signals since it is unlikely that you would have to use them. However, first you would have to block the transmissions.

cheating, cheating, cheating, cheating, cheating, cheating

I wanted to see if I got the same thrill in typing that word as others of you do. Nope.

 

[brednbuddah]

By rule, I also believe that teams are prohibited from using anything but still cameras at any other point of the stadium on game day if they want to actually use that during the game. But I also believe that teams could easily use a "regular" camera with a speed winder and do exactly what NE was doing and conform to the league rules. (So instead of having a videotape to match up signs, they would have a series of still shots to show the same thing.) That's why we always see shots of snapshots of formations and alignments getting send to the bench for coaches to come up with tweaks and adjustments to their game plan.

I don´t understand this. you always see guys on the sidelines flipping through still shots of off/def formations and that´s considered ¨adjustments¨, but turn it into video and it´s ¨cheating¨. I don´t see the difference other that it´ll take a little longer to get the same info using a series of stills.

To that end, Goodell had to send a memo out to all the teams because the espionage and one upsmanship had gotten out of hand demanded that teams cease and desist the cloak and dagger methods of signal stealing. Even in his review and punishment of NE, he indicates that all teams know that they are getting watched in one form of another and teams would be stupid to not rotate or change their signals. He also said there were tapes of coaches waving to the Pats video personnel, so clearly they knew they were being taped. To which I ask, if there was this playful manner of waving to cameramen and teams knew that they were being taped, where was the outrage fromt he teams being taped? Wouldn't you suspect that once a team found out that they were getting taped that they would go screaming to the league office and demand action be taken against NE? I would contend that most teams were doing something similar and thus there was a sense of honor among thieves if you will.

Didn´t GB initially report NE for video taping signals and they were warned at that point. Then the whole Jets thing went down and that´s when they were fined. There is no honor among thieves.

Over the many months that Spygate has gone on, I believe Goodell and the 31 other owners have put this behind them but Specter and the media continue to try to keep this in the news when IMO the NFL really has no desire to do anything further barring a major revelation that the Pats were doing some completely different and terrible things (stealing transmissions, blocking use of transmitting equipment, hiding a video camera in the opposition's locker room, buying other team's playbooks, etc.).

well put.

 

[Kit Fisto]

Chris Mortensen reported on ESPN last night that (in his opinion) Spygate is over, and will officially die Tuesday.

How come I'm the first to post that?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Chris Mortensen reported on ESPN last night that (in his opinion) Spygate is over, and will officially die Tuesday.

How come I'm the first to post that?

Where do we send your cookie?

 

[munchkin]

To be clear, I am not saying what the Patriots did was fair and just, but I am suggesting that a lot goes on across the NFL and the Patriots are taking the heat for the entire league.

It's more likely the other way around. The league's credibility is suffering in part due to what the Patriots did, and in part due to the NFL's bad handling of it so far.

The "I'm rubber and your glue" analysis does not work here. Belichick arrogantly filmed from the sidelines despite a specific warning from the NFL offices and they paid dearly for that transgression. The initial edict/ruling put out by the league was not done so because one team was using tactics the league rules committee found offensive, however the specific follow-up letter to Belichick was. I believe we can logically assume that if all teams opened up their tape vaults and team notes to the public we would see a number of transgressions of all types have taken place over the last thirty years and that would include losing teams. If the Patriots did not win this would be a non-story. A lot of people plagiarize in all walks of life; school, writers and politicians. It only matters if they get caught and the general public only cares if it is deemed to affect them.

 

[IndyHavoc]

I guess people missed out on the part where the penalty levied against NE was for all infractions from 2000-2007. If they weren't prepared to suspend BB for a year then, I doubt that they will now.I think people also forget that the league is prepared to move on, and I believe the Commish and 31 other owenrs feel the same way. It's the media, Specter, and some Patriot haters that are really looking to twist the knife when the league itself pretty much has put this behind them already.

I think you need to step back and see the bigger picture. The NFL has tried to put a basket over this whole cheating fiasco, to show the football public nothing but their own version of events and their own assurances. The basket isn't airtight any more, the NFL no longer controls the flow of information completely, and as more information is available more people are expressing skepticism about the entire show --- the full extent of what happened and the actions of the NFL to hide what happened. The NFL has lost control of the flow of information, and cannot regain it. Walsh will meet with them with a lawyer present, Walsh (I believe) is not forbidden (by threat of lawsuit) to talk about, this topic will not go away simply because they NFL wishes it to, others may come forward. The basket is off. What needs to occur is the opposite of what the NFL has been trying. Things need to be fully aired in public. Everything needs to be visible to the public. Then and only then can an appropriate course of conduct (penalties or no, rule changes or not, etc.) be decided upon by the NFL. They cannot credibly determine in advance the extent of the information and the extent of any necessary remedial or punitive actions. They haven't even heard all the evidence yet. They tried for a long time to prevent someone from giving them evidence, in fact. Once it's all done and visible to the public, and any appropriate actions are taken if necessary, the NFL will begin restoring the faith of the growing number of football fans who pay the NFL's bill and who love the game for what it is, or is supposed to be --- an honest athletic competition and the best game on earth. The NFL cannot "control" their way into restoring faith.

I disagree, greatly. If the owners/F.O. are sat down, given the information, and decide it's time to move on; everyone should move on and no more information needs to be made public. Folks, the NFL is a corporation, or a conglameration of separate business entities. Personally, I get extremely offended when the government decides that it needs to have control over business (unless it truly does need to be monitored/regulated). The NFL owners and Head Office have worked very, very hard to make the NFL into the monster it is. We're fans and customers of these NFL franchises, nothing more (with the exception of Green Bay??). We can demand information until we're blue in the face, but it isn't our right. If they think that they'll make more money and be more successful by shutting this down, and telling the public and media to drop it. They will. If they think it's in their best interest to make all the dirty laundry public, they'll do that.Just my :twocents:

 

[IndyHavoc]

I think the NFL feels a sense of autonomy to police itself and operate within it's own community without the need for outside interference.If as you suggest the public and the media effectively want the Patriots to stand completely naked, if I'm New England I would say you need to then make 31 other teams stand naked before the masses as well.My concern is that even if the tapes are presented to the media/public, who's to say that whatever is contained on those tapes is fully against the rules, something that other teams don't also have in their closets, or otherwise would not set the other 31 teams into a frenzy. If the NFL doesn't care what's on the tapes or basically comes out and says there's nothing provocative on them, the public will still scream when others are not. Also, if the commissioner has already ruled on the matter and that's not good enough in the eyes of the public, is it the public's place to run the NFL, and if so, why bother having a commissioner.There have been so many people clamoring to punish those that break the rules, but over the years there have been so many teams or players that have broken the rules that a case could be made that on a daily basis things happen that go against the integrity and moral fiber of the game.....

DY, you said what I was thinking much better than I did. Thank you.

 

[Carver]

Holy cow. This is truly the most overblown (non) story in the history of SPORTS. I really can't believe it got this big. This just proves how powerful sports media really is in this day and age. Specifically ESPN; their coverage of this has been so far beyond irresponsible that it’s not even funny. I actually feel sorry for NE, because I honestly think that they have become a pawn in something much bigger than filming freaking signals from the sidelines. All of you Patriot haters are naive if you think that NE or Belichick invented the practice of signal stealing. That is absurd!!!

It doesn’t take much of an effort for any sensible person to see that ESPN and Mike Fish (who has been fueling this story out of control from the start), have connections to Sen. Arlen Specter. The good Senator (not surprisingly) has been indirectly involved in a lengthy fight with the NFL because of its stand-off with Comcast over the NFLN. Ironically, Comcast is one of Specter's largest campaign contributors (go figure).

This is all about $$ people. Hate the Patriots all you want for how they carry themselves, but PLEASE don’t be so ignorant to actually believe that the integrity of the game is tarnished because NE taped signals from the sidelines as opposed to the Press box. That is just beyond silly. Every team in the league steals signals (legally) from the press box. All the Patriots have been proven wrong for, is stealing them (Illegally) FROM THE SIDELINES. How this is not understood at this point is just mind boggling to me.

What Belichick did, is provide the opponents of the NFLN with a perfect catalyst to take their fight to the next level. Goodell has handled this whole situation terribly from the start, and in the process has really put the league and their current position at a disadvantage.

 

[JAA]

I guess people missed out on the part where the penalty levied against NE was for all infractions from 2000-2007. If they weren't prepared to suspend BB for a year then, I doubt that they will now.I think people also forget that the league is prepared to move on, and I believe the Commish and 31 other owenrs feel the same way. It's the media, Specter, and some Patriot haters that are really looking to twist the knife when the league itself pretty much has put this behind them already.

I think you need to step back and see the bigger picture. The NFL has tried to put a basket over this whole cheating fiasco, to show the football public nothing but their own version of events and their own assurances. The basket isn't airtight any more, the NFL no longer controls the flow of information completely, and as more information is available more people are expressing skepticism about the entire show --- the full extent of what happened and the actions of the NFL to hide what happened. The NFL has lost control of the flow of information, and cannot regain it. Walsh will meet with them with a lawyer present, Walsh (I believe) is not forbidden (by threat of lawsuit) to talk about, this topic will not go away simply because they NFL wishes it to, others may come forward. The basket is off. What needs to occur is the opposite of what the NFL has been trying. Things need to be fully aired in public. Everything needs to be visible to the public. Then and only then can an appropriate course of conduct (penalties or no, rule changes or not, etc.) be decided upon by the NFL. They cannot credibly determine in advance the extent of the information and the extent of any necessary remedial or punitive actions. They haven't even heard all the evidence yet. They tried for a long time to prevent someone from giving them evidence, in fact. Once it's all done and visible to the public, and any appropriate actions are taken if necessary, the NFL will begin restoring the faith of the growing number of football fans who pay the NFL's bill and who love the game for what it is, or is supposed to be --- an honest athletic competition and the best game on earth. The NFL cannot "control" their way into restoring faith.

GB teh fatness

 

[JAA]

We need a "grasping at straws" emoticon...

This one: works pretty good for you guys

 

[JAA]

The Pats and BB have openly admitted to "cheating" since BB got there in 2000.

No. Quite the opposite. No one in the Pats organization has coped to cheating. I think thats where a lot of the angst comes from.

 

[phthalatemagic]

We need a "grasping at straws" emoticon...

This one: works pretty good for you guys

That works pretty well too

 

[Workhorse]

We need a "grasping at straws" emoticon...

This one: works pretty good for you guys

:(That works pretty well too

Face it, kids. This Walsh thing is your version of Geraldo opening Al Capone's vault. We're not crying, we're laughing.

 

[alg]

Claiming this is old news, and that we should 'move on' is a very convenient way to avoid the obvious. That the success of the Pats and the their SB runs can be called into question. The O/D signals would have mattered less but for the presence of Adams. In his hands these signal thefts had the power to change outcomes.

The false notion that this has all been hashed over too much is wishful thinking. The destruction of evidence, and the stonewalling of potential witnesses can mean only one thing - the NFL has conspired, for the almighty buck, to do what ever it can to make SpyGate go away. There can be no other reasonable conclusion, regardless of the efforts of some. This is NOT a non-issue. The NFL has given only lip-service to fairness while working to marginalize the events. Very simple deduction allows for the following conclusions:

1. If the NFL was managed like the Olympics, then the Pats would be stripped of all titles, and their name removed from the Lombardi trophy.

2. In-game taping. The revelation that BB/Adams filmed the Steelers in the championship game was without a doubt evidence of in-game cheating. Again, simple logic tells us so:

- a) Players, coaches and schemes turn over every year. 1999 tapes would have questionable or no value in succeeding years.

- b) It is the AFC Championship game. What team would risk being caught on the national stage cheating for a possible matchup the next year?

- Or redirect the critical energy needed to prepare for and win a playoff game?

3. Cheating taints the players too. Who on earth could muster an argument in good faith that would suggest that Tom Brady's performances did not go up significantly by having his cheating coaches call in plays based on known/ probable defensive alignments? What NFL QB, no matter how bad, would not benefit from knowing what the defense was going to do?

And yet hear we are. A bunch of people (often, understandably, Pat fans) think it is much ado about nothing. Many others just want to get back to being football/fantasy fans. And the NFL just wants to keep the money train on track. Too many people just want to make it all go way. As if it never happened.

But it needs to stick around:

- We need to remember that sports teach us far more about character than financial success. 'Winning' is not limited to game-day.

- Pride in our teams and players - even cities - cannot satisfy if built on doubts of corruption and greed.

- What we tolerate or encourage ultimately says as much about us as the wrong-doers.

Personally, if my team did this stuff I would want full disclosure. Why? Because only then could I have hope that something would be discovered that could tell me that what they did was not nearly as bad as I feared. Because if I was simply left with the nagging doubts of their guilt, then I would be repelled by their trophies and overall jock-swinging. Because burying my head in the sand would ultimately make me and my team and my city less for the ware.

 

[yellowdog]

I don't believe these new revelations will trigger any new penalties on the Patriots. But if anything were to be punished, it might have something to do with the offensive signal taping, if Belichick didn't explicitly confess to Goodell that he had taped offensive signals. IIRC, Goodell had Belichick sign a statement that he had forked over everything that had happened. If he hadn't mentioned the offensive taping (which is possible but not likely) Goodell could be a bit chapped by Belichick's untruthfulness. But even if thats the case, I don't believe its a new crime deserving additional punishment.

Roger doesn't seem like the type of guy that would take being lied to lightly. I could see a suspension of the head coach if indeed he lied, or wasn't upfront about everything.

 

[David Yudkin]

1. If the NFL was managed like the Olympics, then the Pats would be stripped of all titles, and their name removed from the Lombardi trophy.

This is the one that got me. If the NFL were run like the Olympics, there would have been much more inspection, auditing, and across the board compliance evaluation OF ALL TEAMS and ALL PLAYERS.So while this statement as delivered is likely true, the context is very misleading. All 31 other frnachises would have had to comply to all rules as well. The Olypmics don't test only the winners or top competitors. They test everyone.This gets us back to what I said all along. The NFL rules are often times vague and ambiguous and some rules are enforced more than others.That's why Goodell has offered up his team inspection and due diligence program so teams will have more accountability to conform to the rules.

 

[Kit Fisto]

Claiming this is old news, and that we should 'move on' is a very convenient way to avoid the obvious. That the success of the Pats and the their SB runs can be called into question. The O/D signals would have mattered less but for the presence of Adams. In his hands these signal thefts had the power to change outcomes.The false notion that this has all been hashed over too much is wishful thinking. The destruction of evidence, and the stonewalling of potential witnesses can mean only one thing - the NFL has conspired, for the almighty buck, to do what ever it can to make SpyGate go away. There can be no other reasonable conclusion, regardless of the efforts of some. This is NOT a non-issue. The NFL has given only lip-service to fairness while working to marginalize the events. Very simple deduction allows for the following conclusions:1. If the NFL was managed like the Olympics, then the Pats would be stripped of all titles, and their name removed from the Lombardi trophy.2. In-game taping. The revelation that BB/Adams filmed the Steelers in the championship game was without a doubt evidence of in-game cheating. Again, simple logic tells us so: - a) Players, coaches and schemes turn over every year. 1999 tapes would have questionable or no value in succeeding years. - b) It is the AFC Championship game. What team would risk being caught on the national stage cheating for a possible matchup the next year? - Or redirect the critical energy needed to prepare for and win a playoff game? 3. Cheating taints the players too. Who on earth could muster an argument in good faith that would suggest that Tom Brady's performances did not go up significantly by having his cheating coaches call in plays based on known/ probable defensive alignments? What NFL QB, no matter how bad, would not benefit from knowing what the defense was going to do?And yet hear we are. A bunch of people (often, understandably, Pat fans) think it is much ado about nothing. Many others just want to get back to being football/fantasy fans. And the NFL just wants to keep the money train on track. Too many people just want to make it all go way. As if it never happened. But it needs to stick around: - We need to remember that sports teach us far more about character than financial success. 'Winning' is not limited to game-day. - Pride in our teams and players - even cities - cannot satisfy if built on doubts of corruption and greed. - What we tolerate or encourage ultimately says as much about us as the wrong-doers.Personally, if my team did this stuff I would want full disclosure. Why? Because only then could I have hope that something would be discovered that could tell me that what they did was not nearly as bad as I feared. Because if I was simply left with the nagging doubts of their guilt, then I would be repelled by their trophies and overall jock-swinging. Because burying my head in the sand would ultimately make me and my team and my city less for the ware.

Hooray for you. Look, if Goodell says it's a non-issue, then it's a non-issue. Conspiracy theorists be damned.

 

[jonessed]

The NFL isn't doing themsevles any favors by only admitting to the smallest infractions each step of the way. It's understandable that they are going to prop up the Patriots to try and maintatin the integrity of the league, but this all could have been dealt with in one fell swoop some time ago. They knew Walsh existed and they knew more tapes probably existed, yet instead of dealing with it in the first investigation they ignored it and gave room for an attention seeker like Specter jump in. Now after Specter made them look like phonies they are trying to downplay the fact that the first investigation never mentioned offensive signals. So now we get to rehash everything again.

Anytime you get a bumbling fool like Goodell tripping over himself to cover things up the media is going to jump on it. It's what they do. Hell, it's what they are supposed to do. If the NFL made any real effort to investigate this to begin with it would have been over by now.

 

[Gr00vus]

I don't see the big difference between taping offensive signals and defensive signals. Taping is taping and he got punished for taping during the period that this occurred. Nothing will come of this.

Then why do they differentiate? Why was it mentioned repeatedly that it was just defensive signals (as shown in multiple quotes above). Obviously there's a difference or people wouldn't have bothered to make a distinction. Why lie about it if it wasn't important?So we now have evidence of cheating and lying on the part of at least the coach, probably more in the organization and a potential cover up by the league commissioner. The more we learn the more this stinks, and those are the reasons why this is news. It's starting to look like what had been perceived as the model NFL franchise is rotten, and yeah it calls into question the integrity of the league as a whole when the commissioner seems to be actively covering up these problems.

 

[switz]

http://www.courant.com/sports/football/pat...story?track=rss

When the Patriots were penalized for videotaping Jets defensive signals in the season opener last September, Belichick claimed he had misinterpreted the rule and told NFL commissioner Roger Goodell that he had taped defensive signals of opposing coaches throughout his coaching tenure. However, Belichick did not admit to taping offensive signals to Goodell according to a league official.

Nice.But then if you read on-

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello contradicted that statement by Wednesday telling the Associated Press: "This is consistent with what the Patriots had admitted they had been doing, consistent with what we already knew."

Aiello said that prior to the NFL reviewing any tapes - so how could he even know???

 

[fatness]

Aiello said that prior to the NFL reviewing any tapes - so how could he even know???

You're correct. Link

The N.F.L. said Wednesday night, before viewing the tapes, that the list of tapes was consistent with what the league already knew. Senator Arlen Specter, a Republican from Pennsylvania, objected to the league’s position on Thursday, declining to speculate until after reviewing the tapes and meeting with the former employee, Matt Walsh, next week in Washington.

“It is very unfortunate that the N.F.L. has already started its ‘nothing new’ spin before watching the tapes or finding out what Mr. Matt Walsh has to say,” Specter said in a telephone interview. “Let’s see where the evidence leads.”

 

[fatness]

That's why Goodell has offered up his team inspection and due diligence program so teams will have more accountability to conform to the rules.

The team inspection and due diligence program finally arrived at by the NFL is a joke. It was offered up initially for PR value only, and put into practice it will do nothing at all.

 

[David Yudkin]

That's why Goodell has offered up his team inspection and due diligence program so teams will have more accountability to conform to the rules.

The team inspection and due diligence program finally arrived at by the NFL is a joke. It was offered up initially for PR value only, and put into practice it will do nothing at all.

I agree that it probably will not accomplish much, but at least it's a start and could lead to more down the road.

 

[greenline]

Alot of you are going to spend the next 6-7 years of your lives angry.

 

[Andy Herron]

Chris Mortensen reported on ESPN last night that (in his opinion) Spygate is over, and will officially die Tuesday.

How come I'm the first to post that?

I saw that last night too, which was all the more reason I made the mistake of coming into this thread to see what all of the fuss was about.I tried to tell them this was nothing new, as Mortensen reported, but there are just too many people in here so determined to continue to throw gas on this fire in all hopes of trying to keep a fire burning that has no oxygen.

If they want to spend all of that energy on a pointless cause, that's up to them.

Without any "real" new information, this thing is over. Just as Mortensen reported.

These guys are just like Spector, trying to make something out of nothing.

 

[vandyt]

Chris Mortensen reported on ESPN last night that (in his opinion) Spygate is over, and will officially die Tuesday.

How come I'm the first to post that?

I saw that last night too, which was all the more reason I made the mistake of coming into this thread to see what all of the fuss was about.I tried to tell them this was nothing new, as Mortensen reported, but there are just too many people in here so determined to continue to throw gas on this fire in all hopes of trying to keep a fire burning that has no oxygen.

If they want to spend all of that energy on a pointless cause, that's up to them.

Without any "real" new information, this thing is over. Just as Mortensen reported.

These guys are just like Spector, trying to make something out of nothing.

Persecution complex much?As Joe would say, "Turn it down. WAYYYY down."

 

[Green and Gold]

1. If the NFL was managed like the Olympics, then the Pats would be stripped of all titles, and their name removed from the Lombardi trophy.

This is the one that got me. If the NFL were run like the Olympics, there would have been much more inspection, auditing, and across the board compliance evaluation OF ALL TEAMS and ALL PLAYERS.So while this statement as delivered is likely true, the context is very misleading. All 31 other frnachises would have had to comply to all rules as well. The Olypmics don't test only the winners or top competitors. They test everyone.This gets us back to what I said all along. The NFL rules are often times vague and ambiguous and some rules are enforced more than others.That's why Goodell has offered up his team inspection and due diligence program so teams will have more accountability to conform to the rules.

Not to mention that if one single player on your team used steroids, all titles would be stripped. The lombardi would be bare.

 

[houndirish]

Add me to the Fatness camp. The NFL has supplied the gas for this fire with their poor Officer Barbrady impersonation (Move along, nothing to see here ...). I'm sick of the story and want it to go away. I don't believe the Patriots will receive any additional punishment and lean towards saying they don't deserve any. But the longer the NFL keeps trying to downplay everything the more I tend to believe there's more to be told.

And I can't quite fathom the argument that because the Patriots got caught it must mean every other team was doing it too. No way the lid stays on that story. The Patriots aren't being maligned because of their success. They got caught. Plain and simple. If, say the Jets, were also taping, does anyone think for a second that the Patriots don't allow that news to leak?

Now I'll agree that Spector's has his own agenda which is not limited to a search for the truth. I'm certainly not arguing for external forces to step in and help govern the NFL in this instance. The NFL owns it's own network. They could easily take the approach that they're sharing all the information they have which I tend to beleive would help make the story go away. It might even discredit Spector to a degree and expose him as a frustrated Eagles fan with an axe to grind. However, their repeated attempts to control the information keeps giving life to Spectors smoking gun theory. I like the Commish but he's been Bud Selig asleep at the wheel on this one.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Not to mention that if one single player on your team used steroids, all titles would be stripped. The lombardi would be bare.

No. All Super Bowls from 1981 and earlier would be in perfect condition.

 

[Bri]

If, say the Jets, were also taping, does anyone think for a second that the Patriots don't allow that news to leak?

why were the Jets "solid" in 2006 and not so good in 2007?

 

[Class Dismissed]

Holy cow. This is truly the most overblown (non) story in the history of SPORTS. I really can't believe it got this big. This just proves how powerful sports media really is in this day and age. Specifically ESPN; their coverage of this has been so far beyond irresponsible that it’s not even funny. I actually feel sorry for NE, because I honestly think that they have become a pawn in something much bigger than filming freaking signals from the sidelines. All of you Patriot haters are naive if you think that NE or Belichick invented the practice of signal stealing. That is absurd!!!

It doesn’t take much of an effort for any sensible person to see that ESPN and Mike Fish (who has been fueling this story out of control from the start), have connections to Sen. Arlen Specter. The good Senator (not surprisingly) has been indirectly involved in a lengthy fight with the NFL because of its stand-off with Comcast over the NFLN. Ironically, Comcast is one of Specter's largest campaign contributors (go figure).



This is all about $$ people. Hate the Patriots all you want for how they carry themselves, but PLEASE don’t be so ignorant to actually believe that the integrity of the game is tarnished because NE taped signals from the sidelines as opposed to the Press box. That is just beyond silly. Every team in the league steals signals (legally) from the press box. All the Patriots have been proven wrong for, is stealing them (Illegally) FROM THE SIDELINES. How this is not understood at this point is just mind boggling to me.

What Belichick did, is provide the opponents of the NFLN with a perfect catalyst to take their fight to the next level. Goodell has handled this whole situation terribly from the start, and in the process has really put the league and their current position at a disadvantage.

I see this posted on this board by you and a couple others, I have seen it in huge letters. it's obvious that several are very passionate about this stance, but I'm not sure I understand the logic, are you suggesting that the rule states you can tape opposing coaches signals from the press box, or is the Press Box omitted from the language of the rules, therefore making it acceptable and subject to interpretation?If you, or anyone else could clarify that it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[twitch]

READ THIS

and draw your own conclusion.

 

[FinHead]

As a die-hard Dolphin's fan I could honestly care less. The only thing Spygate did in my opinion, was make me aware that it was illegal to video tape signals. I knew it wasn't really ethical, but thought every team did it. I was sick of this story last year, I hope we don't have to go through another year of the media blowing this issue out of proportion. Except for people on message boards, no one cares.

 

[Class Dismissed]

READ THIS

and draw your own conclusion.

My conclusion is that it doesn't answer or address the specifics of the question I posed.

 

[twitch]

READ THIS

and draw your own conclusion.

My conclusion is that it doesn't answer or address the specifics of the question I posed.

sorry.

 

[ScottyFargo]

Well, while it didn't specifically quote the NFL ruling on taping from the press box, I felt it had some interesting quotes that counter what Jimmy Johnson had said.If legal spying is all the rage and is so universally acceptable then it says something about the person who "breaks code" and chooses to go that extra step further to gain the advantage.

Another current assistant coach said the legal stealing of signals is just "good coaching. But when you start using video equipment to steal signs, you're off the reservation. I think that's a whole different matter. That goes against everything we've been taught as coaches."

Added one NFC personnel director: "What the Patriots did is extremely rare because it's against the rules. It's one of those things that if it's not Bill Belichick involved, you wonder if the coach survives something like that. What is more normal is something like a guy sitting in a press box trying to steal signs by looking at the coaches. That's why the home team usually has its back to the press box when they're in their own stadium."

So legal spying is acknowledged, but what the Pats did was "against everything (they'd) been taught as coaches." Good article with interesting quotes, thanks.

 

[Interseptopus]

I Mis-Interpreted The Rules...



It's been posted before, but for me, this could never get old.

 

[Big_Russel]

Holy cow. This is truly the most overblown (non) story in the history of SPORTS. I really can't believe it got this big. This just proves how powerful sports media really is in this day and age. Specifically ESPN; their coverage of this has been so far beyond irresponsible that it’s not even funny. I actually feel sorry for NE, because I honestly think that they have become a pawn in something much bigger than filming freaking signals from the sidelines. All of you Patriot haters are naive if you think that NE or Belichick invented the practice of signal stealing. That is absurd!!!

It doesn’t take much of an effort for any sensible person to see that ESPN and Mike Fish (who has been fueling this story out of control from the start), have connections to Sen. Arlen Specter. The good Senator (not surprisingly) has been indirectly involved in a lengthy fight with the NFL because of its stand-off with Comcast over the NFLN. Ironically, Comcast is one of Specter's largest campaign contributors (go figure).



This is all about $$ people. Hate the Patriots all you want for how they carry themselves, but PLEASE don’t be so ignorant to actually believe that the integrity of the game is tarnished because NE taped signals from the sidelines as opposed to the Press box. That is just beyond silly. Every team in the league steals signals (legally) from the press box. All the Patriots have been proven wrong for, is stealing them (Illegally) FROM THE SIDELINES. How this is not understood at this point is just mind boggling to me.

What Belichick did, is provide the opponents of the NFLN with a perfect catalyst to take their fight to the next level. Goodell has handled this whole situation terribly from the start, and in the process has really put the league and their current position at a disadvantage.

I see this posted on this board by you and a couple others, I have seen it in huge letters. it's obvious that several are very passionate about this stance, but I'm not sure I understand the logic, are you suggesting that the rule states you can tape opposing coaches signals from the press box, or is the Press Box omitted from the language of the rules, therefore making it acceptable and subject to interpretation?If you, or anyone else could clarify that it would be greatly appreciated.

This is what I read (from the rule book), and how I came to that conclusion. Hopefully this is what you were looking for. V. Miscellaneous Rules and Regulations

A. No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game.

B. If clubs believe that violations of any of the Origination, Editing, Exchange, or Shipping rules have occurred, such violations should be brought to the attention of the Vice President of Officiating. Also, please inform the Video Directors Committee of any known violations. The Competition Committee will also urge that the Commissioner take appropriate disciplinary action in cases of substantiated violations.

C. Teams will be required to supply a yearly allotment of tapes to the Dub Center at NFL Films. Quantity required per club will be given to each team by May prior to the upcoming season. Tape stock will consist of brand-new 62-minute Beta SX tapes. For the 2007 season, 4,400 NEW tapes will be required.

D. To ensure the protection of equipment and employees of the team's video departments, please follow the guidelines listed for the video shooting locations at your stadium:

-All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead.

-Any doors entering the shooting locations within the public seating areas of the stadium are required to be lockable from both the inside and the outside of the location to prevent unwarranted access.

-All locations must have climate control (heat and/or fans). Any heaters and/or fans must be completely operational and produce the effect that is required. Heaters that do not produce any heat should be replaced.

-All locations must supply adequate power for each team (at least two outlets per team).

-All locations must be installed with the required video printer lines from both the sideline and the end zone shooting locations to the coaches' booth and field. It is not required that wiring be installed for the opposite end zone position, but if the opposite end zone is wired for the home team, it must also be wired for the visiting team. Home teams must provide visiting teams with the same situational set up for printers that they have themselves (i.e. cover, placement behind the bench, etc.)

-It is suggested that each location provide either countertop space or tables for both teams in the booth and a table on the field and coaches' booth.

Please ascertain that your club is in compliance with these guidelines.

What I get from this, is that NE took it a step further by actually filming the signals from the sidelines (strictly prohibited in the rules), but had they been filming from another enclosed location (such as the press box), it would have been perfectly legal. Maybe im reading it wrong, but that is how I interpret them. If that is not the case (and someone can explain in further detail, (in all seriousness) I'd love to hear it.

 

[Road Warriors]

Holy cow. This is truly the most overblown (non) story in the history of SPORTS. I really can't believe it got this big. This just proves how powerful sports media really is in this day and age. Specifically ESPN; their coverage of this has been so far beyond irresponsible that it’s not even funny. I actually feel sorry for NE, because I honestly think that they have become a pawn in something much bigger than filming freaking signals from the sidelines. All of you Patriot haters are naive if you think that NE or Belichick invented the practice of signal stealing. That is absurd!!!

It doesn’t take much of an effort for any sensible person to see that ESPN and Mike Fish (who has been fueling this story out of control from the start), have connections to Sen. Arlen Specter. The good Senator (not surprisingly) has been indirectly involved in a lengthy fight with the NFL because of its stand-off with Comcast over the NFLN. Ironically, Comcast is one of Specter's largest campaign contributors (go figure).



This is all about $$ people. Hate the Patriots all you want for how they carry themselves, but PLEASE don’t be so ignorant to actually believe that the integrity of the game is tarnished because NE taped signals from the sidelines as opposed to the Press box. That is just beyond silly. Every team in the league steals signals (legally) from the press box. All the Patriots have been proven wrong for, is stealing them (Illegally) FROM THE SIDELINES. How this is not understood at this point is just mind boggling to me.

What Belichick did, is provide the opponents of the NFLN with a perfect catalyst to take their fight to the next level. Goodell has handled this whole situation terribly from the start, and in the process has really put the league and their current position at a disadvantage.

I see this posted on this board by you and a couple others, I have seen it in huge letters. it's obvious that several are very passionate about this stance, but I'm not sure I understand the logic, are you suggesting that the rule states you can tape opposing coaches signals from the press box, or is the Press Box omitted from the language of the rules, therefore making it acceptable and subject to interpretation?If you, or anyone else could clarify that it would be greatly appreciated.

This is what I read (from the rule book), and how I came to that conclusion. Hopefully this is what you were looking for. V. Miscellaneous Rules and Regulations

A. No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game.

B. If clubs believe that violations of any of the Origination, Editing, Exchange, or Shipping rules have occurred, such violations should be brought to the attention of the Vice President of Officiating. Also, please inform the Video Directors Committee of any known violations. The Competition Committee will also urge that the Commissioner take appropriate disciplinary action in cases of substantiated violations.

C. Teams will be required to supply a yearly allotment of tapes to the Dub Center at NFL Films. Quantity required per club will be given to each team by May prior to the upcoming season. Tape stock will consist of brand-new 62-minute Beta SX tapes. For the 2007 season, 4,400 NEW tapes will be required.

D. To ensure the protection of equipment and employees of the team's video departments, please follow the guidelines listed for the video shooting locations at your stadium:

-All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead.

-Any doors entering the shooting locations within the public seating areas of the stadium are required to be lockable from both the inside and the outside of the location to prevent unwarranted access.

-All locations must have climate control (heat and/or fans). Any heaters and/or fans must be completely operational and produce the effect that is required. Heaters that do not produce any heat should be replaced.

-All locations must supply adequate power for each team (at least two outlets per team).

-All locations must be installed with the required video printer lines from both the sideline and the end zone shooting locations to the coaches' booth and field. It is not required that wiring be installed for the opposite end zone position, but if the opposite end zone is wired for the home team, it must also be wired for the visiting team. Home teams must provide visiting teams with the same situational set up for printers that they have themselves (i.e. cover, placement behind the bench, etc.)

-It is suggested that each location provide either countertop space or tables for both teams in the booth and a table on the field and coaches' booth.

Please ascertain that your club is in compliance with these guidelines.

What I get from this, is that NE took it a step further by actually filming the signals from the sidelines (strictly prohibited in the rules), but had they been filming from another enclosed location (such as the press box), it would have been perfectly legal. Maybe im reading it wrong, but that is how I interpret them. If that is not the case (and someone can explain in further detail, (in all seriousness) I'd love to hear it.

As far as I've understood the rules in play for this whole episode, you've got it nailed. The location of the camera is the rule that was broken.

 

[parasaurolophus]

wouldnt it be extremely difficult to steal signals from in the press box? I realize that cameras these days are very sophisticated, but do teams really have that good of a camera?

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

The NFL isn't doing themsevles any favors by only admitting to the smallest infractions each step of the way. It's understandable that they are going to prop up the Patriots to try and maintatin the integrity of the league, but this all could have been dealt with in one fell swoop some time ago. They knew Walsh existed and they knew more tapes probably existed, yet instead of dealing with it in the first investigation they ignored it and gave room for an attention seeker like Specter jump in. Now after Specter made them look like phonies they are trying to downplay the fact that the first investigation never mentioned offensive signals. So now we get to rehash everything again.

Anytime you get a bumbling fool like Goodell tripping over himself to cover things up the media is going to jump on it. It's what they do. Hell, it's what they are supposed to do. If the NFL made any real effort to investigate this to begin with it would have been over by now.

FWIW: No that it matters to the haters, but I see you, Bigsteroidlthrill, mop and others claiming as fact that NE was originally punished only for taping def signals.Do you have a link or copy of the offical NFL press release from last September? Not the AP summary, but the actual release? I must admit I can not find it.

I believe you all may be mistaken; according to both the Globe AND the Herald the NFL noted at the time that NE was being fined for def & off signals.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/footbal...&position=5

Before receiving the list of tapes on Wednesday, Aiello had said in a statement that they contained no revelations. “This is consistent with what the Patriots had admitted they had been doing, consistent with what we already knew,” he said that night.

While the focus of the league’s September punishment was on the Patriots’ stealing defensive signals, the NFL’s Sept. 13 release actually said the Pats were being disciplined for “violating the rule about taping offensive and defensive signals.”

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patr...tape_revisited/

Four days after the Patriots were caught illegally videotaping the signals of Jets coaches in the Sept. 9, 2007, season opener, the NFL came down with its ruling against the club: the forfeiture of a 2008 first-round draft choice, a $500,000 fine for coach Bill Belichick, and a $250,000 fine for the club. The decision, as noted by the NFL at the time, was based on a rule regarding the taping of offensive and defensive signals.

Keep in mind that Tomase from the Herald is the same POS who wrote (broke) the unsubstantiated SB expose "story" that NE taped the Rams SB walkthrough.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

claiming as fact that NE was originally punished only for taping def signals.

It was the ONLY thing (defensive signals) ever mentioned by the league when explaining the cheating and the punishment.Only since the superbowl (in Feb) will you find anything discussing offensive signals. Including your links which are from the past couple days.

 

[Road Warriors]

claiming as fact that NE was originally punished only for taping def signals.

It was the ONLY thing (defensive signals) ever mentioned by the league when explaining the cheating and the punishment.Only since the superbowl (in Feb) will you find anything discussing offensive signals. Including your links which are from the past couple days.

The question is this... The rule that was violated was taping coaches signals from an illegal location. Can we agree to that?If thats the case, then with no other rule violation occurring, based on this new evidence from Matt Walsh, why do you believe there is more punishment to come?Or is there a rule that states you can't tape defensive signals, and another rule that states you can't tape offensive signals?

 

[jonessed]

The NFL isn't doing themsevles any favors by only admitting to the smallest infractions each step of the way. It's understandable that they are going to prop up the Patriots to try and maintatin the integrity of the league, but this all could have been dealt with in one fell swoop some time ago. They knew Walsh existed and they knew more tapes probably existed, yet instead of dealing with it in the first investigation they ignored it and gave room for an attention seeker like Specter jump in. Now after Specter made them look like phonies they are trying to downplay the fact that the first investigation never mentioned offensive signals. So now we get to rehash everything again.

Anytime you get a bumbling fool like Goodell tripping over himself to cover things up the media is going to jump on it. It's what they do. Hell, it's what they are supposed to do. If the NFL made any real effort to investigate this to begin with it would have been over by now.

FWIW: No that it matters to the haters, but I see you, Bigsteroidlthrill, mop and others claiming as fact that NE was originally punished only for taping def signals.Do you have a link or copy of the offical NFL press release from last September? Not the AP summary, but the actual release? I must admit I can not find it.

I believe you all may be mistaken; according to both the Globe AND the Herald the NFL noted at the time that NE was being fined for def & off signals.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/footbal...&position=5

Before receiving the list of tapes on Wednesday, Aiello had said in a statement that they contained no revelations. “This is consistent with what the Patriots had admitted they had been doing, consistent with what we already knew,” he said that night.

While the focus of the league’s September punishment was on the Patriots’ stealing defensive signals, the NFL’s Sept. 13 release actually said the Pats were being disciplined for “violating the rule about taping offensive and defensive signals.”

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patr...tape_revisited/

Four days after the Patriots were caught illegally videotaping the signals of Jets coaches in the Sept. 9, 2007, season opener, the NFL came down with its ruling against the club: the forfeiture of a 2008 first-round draft choice, a $500,000 fine for coach Bill Belichick, and a $250,000 fine for the club. The decision, as noted by the NFL at the time, was based on a rule regarding the taping of offensive and defensive signals.

Keep in mind that Tomase from the Herald is the same POS who wrote (broke) the unsubstantiated SB expose "story" that NE taped the Rams SB walkthrough.

If you want to have a conversation I would suggest not starting out calling people that disgree with you "haters" and/or intentionally butchering names.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

why do you believe there is more punishment to come?

I stated earlier, I dont believe anymore punishment will come. But there are new revelations which came out with these tapes.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

The NFL isn't doing themsevles any favors by only admitting to the smallest infractions each step of the way. It's understandable that they are going to prop up the Patriots to try and maintatin the integrity of the league, but this all could have been dealt with in one fell swoop some time ago. They knew Walsh existed and they knew more tapes probably existed, yet instead of dealing with it in the first investigation they ignored it and gave room for an attention seeker like Specter jump in. Now after Specter made them look like phonies they are trying to downplay the fact that the first investigation never mentioned offensive signals. So now we get to rehash everything again.

Anytime you get a bumbling fool like Goodell tripping over himself to cover things up the media is going to jump on it. It's what they do. Hell, it's what they are supposed to do. If the NFL made any real effort to investigate this to begin with it would have been over by now.

FWIW: No that it matters to the haters, but I see you, Bigsteroidlthrill, mop and others claiming as fact that NE was originally punished only for taping def signals.Do you have a link or copy of the offical NFL press release from last September? Not the AP summary, but the actual release? I must admit I can not find it.

I believe you all may be mistaken; according to both the Globe AND the Herald the NFL noted at the time that NE was being fined for def & off signals.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/footbal...&position=5

Before receiving the list of tapes on Wednesday, Aiello had said in a statement that they contained no revelations. “This is consistent with what the Patriots had admitted they had been doing, consistent with what we already knew,” he said that night.

While the focus of the league’s September punishment was on the Patriots’ stealing defensive signals, the NFL’s Sept. 13 release actually said the Pats were being disciplined for “violating the rule about taping offensive and defensive signals.”

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patr...tape_revisited/

Four days after the Patriots were caught illegally videotaping the signals of Jets coaches in the Sept. 9, 2007, season opener, the NFL came down with its ruling against the club: the forfeiture of a 2008 first-round draft choice, a $500,000 fine for coach Bill Belichick, and a $250,000 fine for the club. The decision, as noted by the NFL at the time, was based on a rule regarding the taping of offensive and defensive signals.

Keep in mind that Tomase from the Herald is the same POS who wrote (broke) the unsubstantiated SB expose "story" that NE taped the Rams SB walkthrough.

If you want to have a conversation I would suggest not starting out calling people that disgree with you "haters" and/or intentionally butchering names.

OOPS, sorry my bad, I had meant to reply to the Groovus post not yours and I did not mean to lump you in with the haters. Probably should have left MOP out as well since afaik he is only guilty of starting the mis-informed thread from the mis-informed article. Moving on however, Steelroid and Groovus have both been relentless with their bashing for quite sometime and can aptly be called haters who incessantly trash NE post after post regardless of fact. I ignore the vast majority of the haters opinion based posts, but when they appear to so clearly have their facts wrong it is nice to set the record straight as it speaks direectly to their credibility or lack thereof.Not sure I was looking for a conversation; just trying to point out that it appears as if Goodell isn't the only "bumbling fool" (your words not mine) in all this