Peyton Manning vs. Ryan Leaf (1 Viewer)

[Tau837]

I've missed on plenty of college players. But I was positive Manning would be way better than Leaf. It was all mental. Leaf had much better physicals than Manning. Many do.

But Leaf just looked like a loser. I saw all I needed to see in his final college game. (Rose Bowl?) They lost on a play where he was trying for the TD and it looked as if there could have been a pass interference call. Most QBs would have been going ballistic arguing the call or crushed with the defeat.

Leaf couldn't get his helmet off fast enough and was smiling and high fiving and shaking hands with the other team. Ready for the next thing.

Sort of like Aaron Brooks or Mike Vick does after a loss or interception.

This one was easy.

J

Sorry, but this example doesn't hold water. Mike Vick has been somewhat disappointing, but he is 26 and has not been a bust. Same for Aaron Brooks, who was a starter for 5 years in the NFL.I don't disagree that Manning had better mental makeup than Leaf, or that you personally rated Manning higher. I just think that if you made that assessment based on the example given, it was flawed... and it would make me question your judgment on other players coming out of college. I suspect that your assessment was based on much more than the simple example you cited here.

The real issue here is not whether Manning or Leaf should have gone first... it's that Leaf shouldn't have gone in the first round or even on the first day. The fact that he did indicates that the Chargers, and presumably most teams other than possibly the Colts, completely missed the mark in their assessment of his non-physical attributes and capabilities.

Sorry if that doesn't work for you. That lack of killer drive to win is big for me. I see it all over Brooks. Not as much for Vick but other things in him shows up. Like when he was hurt a couple of years ago. He stood on the sidelines and didn't even have his radio mic on to hear what was going on. Other QBs are hurt and they're like the assitant QB coach on the sidelines super into the game and managing it. That's cool if you think he shouldn't have gone on the first day. You'll be in a VERY small group of people if you were really saying that back then. Most felt Manning would be better. Some by a good bit. But I don't think many predicted Leaf to be a total flameout like he was.

J

Rereading your post, perhaps you were merely saying the reason you thought Manning would be better was his lack of drive, attitude, etc. That I can agree with. However, I thought you were implying you knew he would be a bust because of what you observed in the Rose Bowl. Now you cite his lack of killer drive to win as being comparable to Vick and Brooks. Frankly, being comparable to Vick and Brooks, while worse than being comparable to Favre, Elway, etc., is not an indicator that a QB will be a bust... since neither Vick nor Brooks has been a bust. That was my point.Also, I wasn't suggesting that I knew Leaf shouldn't be a first day pick back then... I was saying that the results show that in hindsight, and thus illustrates that the evaluation process missed the problems with Leaf's attitude, drive, maturity, etc.

 

[BGP]

I've missed on plenty of college players. But I was positive Manning would be way better than Leaf. It was all mental. Leaf had much better physicals than Manning. Many do.

But Leaf just looked like a loser. I saw all I needed to see in his final college game. (Rose Bowl?) They lost on a play where he was trying for the TD and it looked as if there could have been a pass interference call. Most QBs would have been going ballistic arguing the call or crushed with the defeat.

Leaf couldn't get his helmet off fast enough and was smiling and high fiving and shaking hands with the other team. Ready for the next thing.

Sort of like Aaron Brooks or Mike Vick does after a loss or interception.

This one was easy.

J

Sorry, but this example doesn't hold water. Mike Vick has been somewhat disappointing, but he is 26 and has not been a bust. Same for Aaron Brooks, who was a starter for 5 years in the NFL.I don't disagree that Manning had better mental makeup than Leaf, or that you personally rated Manning higher. I just think that if you made that assessment based on the example given, it was flawed... and it would make me question your judgment on other players coming out of college. I suspect that your assessment was based on much more than the simple example you cited here.

The real issue here is not whether Manning or Leaf should have gone first... it's that Leaf shouldn't have gone in the first round or even on the first day. The fact that he did indicates that the Chargers, and presumably most teams other than possibly the Colts, completely missed the mark in their assessment of his non-physical attributes and capabilities.

Sorry if that doesn't work for you. That lack of killer drive to win is big for me. I see it all over Brooks. Not as much for Vick but other things in him shows up. Like when he was hurt a couple of years ago. He stood on the sidelines and didn't even have his radio mic on to hear what was going on. Other QBs are hurt and they're like the assitant QB coach on the sidelines super into the game and managing it. That's cool if you think he shouldn't have gone on the first day. You'll be in a VERY small group of people if you were really saying that back then. Most felt Manning would be better. Some by a good bit. But I don't think many predicted Leaf to be a total flameout like he was.

J

This is a terrible way to judge character.You would look at Bill Belichick and see a guy that dresses shabby and seems disinterested in talking to media. You would look at that guy and say, "If he can't be bothered to put an effort in to get some decent clothes or be enthuiastic at a presser, he must be a loser."

Also feels a bit shallow. If you want to find the best people, you need more patience and understanding than this.

 

[redman]

I've missed on plenty of college players. But I was positive Manning would be way better than Leaf. It was all mental. Leaf had much better physicals than Manning. Many do.

But Leaf just looked like a loser. I saw all I needed to see in his final college game. (Rose Bowl?) They lost on a play where he was trying for the TD and it looked as if there could have been a pass interference call. Most QBs would have been going ballistic arguing the call or crushed with the defeat.

Leaf couldn't get his helmet off fast enough and was smiling and high fiving and shaking hands with the other team. Ready for the next thing.

Sort of like Aaron Brooks or Mike Vick does after a loss or interception.

This one was easy.

J

Sorry, but this example doesn't hold water. Mike Vick has been somewhat disappointing, but he is 26 and has not been a bust. Same for Aaron Brooks, who was a starter for 5 years in the NFL.I don't disagree that Manning had better mental makeup than Leaf, or that you personally rated Manning higher. I just think that if you made that assessment based on the example given, it was flawed... and it would make me question your judgment on other players coming out of college. I suspect that your assessment was based on much more than the simple example you cited here.

The real issue here is not whether Manning or Leaf should have gone first... it's that Leaf shouldn't have gone in the first round or even on the first day. The fact that he did indicates that the Chargers, and presumably most teams other than possibly the Colts, completely missed the mark in their assessment of his non-physical attributes and capabilities.

Sorry if that doesn't work for you. That lack of killer drive to win is big for me. I see it all over Brooks. Not as much for Vick but other things in him shows up. Like when he was hurt a couple of years ago. He stood on the sidelines and didn't even have his radio mic on to hear what was going on. Other QBs are hurt and they're like the assitant QB coach on the sidelines super into the game and managing it. That's cool if you think he shouldn't have gone on the first day. You'll be in a VERY small group of people if you were really saying that back then. Most felt Manning would be better. Some by a good bit. But I don't think many predicted Leaf to be a total flameout like he was.

J

This is a terrible way to judge character.You would look at Bill Belichick and see a guy that dresses shabby and seems disinterested in talking to media. You would look at that guy and say, "If he can't be bothered to put an effort in to get some decent clothes or be enthuiastic at a presser, he must be a loser."

Also feels a bit shallow. If you want to find the best people, you need more patience and understanding than this.

Poor example. Belichick had nearly three decades of NFL experience, most of it with great success as a D-coordinator, before he was hired. Leaf had no NFL experience and frankly little starting experience in college. To me, an attitude is much more important when there's little track record to hang your hat on, and that's inevitably going to be the case with rookies.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

He's actually coaching college golf somewhere.

Somewhere = West Texas A&M University. He's also the quarterbacks coach on the football team.

He's also the richest guy on campus. Whatever else he's done or failed to do, he's managed his money well from what I understand.

Im pretty sure he married a charger cheerleader too.

 

[kbell025]

Here is a good read from the past

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/.../15/the_latest/

If Indy steals Leaf, will San Diego charge after Wadsworth?

From The War Room

Posted: Wed April 15, 1997 at 07:30 AM ET

If Leaf blows over to Indy, don't be shocked if the Chargers pass on Manning (above) to grab Florida State defensive lineman Andre Wadsworth

PHOENIX (CNN/SI) -- There is an increasing rumbling out of San Diego that the Chargers may be leaning toward snagging Florida State defensive end Andre Wadsworth with the No. 2 pick in Saturday's NFL Draft.

That's if, and probably only if, the Indianapolis Colts take the player the Chargers really covet, quarterback Ryan Leaf, with the No. 1 selection.

The Chargers, in desperate need of a quarterback, want Washington State's Leaf in the worst of ways. If Indy grabs him, that leaves San Diego with a difficult decision -- take Wadsworth, the best player on most everyone's draft board but a guy who doesn't fill as critical a need, or go with Tennessee QB Peyton Manning, who the Chargers simply don't like as much as Leaf.

If that scenario plays out, then the Arizona Cardinals, at No. 3, are sitting super pretty. They already have a young quarterback they think can play in Jake Plummer. So they don't need Manning. But lots of other teams do, and the offers the Cardinals will get in that 15 minutes of picking time could be head-spinning.

Not convinced the Chargers would pass on Manning when they so badly need a QB? Consider this: Green Bay Packers general manager Ron Wolf has said that Wadsworth is the best player in the draft, a guy maybe worth four draft picks or more. One of Wolf's best friends in the NFL is San Diego GM Bobby Beathard, who already has said publicly he thinks the Colts will steal away Leaf

Don't underestimate the willingness of teams to make blockbuster trades come Draft Day. One NFL GM speculated Tuesday the reason the Carolina Panthers and Washington Redskins haven't consummated the deal that would send disgruntled defensive lineman Sean Gilbert to the Panthers is that Carolina wants to leave its options open for a possible trade up in the draft.

The Panthers won't have that option if they finalize the deal for Gilbert because it will cost them, in all likelihood, at least a first- and third-round pick because Gilbert was named the Redskins' franchise player. If the two teams don't agree and the deal falls through, Carolina would have those picks to toss around.

One scenario if the deal for Gilbert falls through: The Panthers could package a few picks, maybe a couple marquee players - say, throw in QB Kerry Collins -- and trade to the No. 1 spot to get Manning or Leaf.

This one's not totally farfetched, either. Colts president Bill Polian always has liked Collins, and if he can get a quarterback he fancies, several proven players and a couple key draft picks, the Colts could get rebuilt in a hurry. . . .

There's still lots swirling around Oakland's Chester McGlockton, too. Word is the Raiders are trying their best to move him, somehow. The Raiders don't have enough salary cap room to pay him franchise-player money, even though that's the designation they've put on him. Instead, they're hoping someone else will take a run at him and they'd get some draft picks as compensation.

What they'd get is unclear, considering it's all tied up in the new extension to the collective bargaining agreement between the league and its players. Maybe the best Oakland can hope for is that the NFL would let a team sign McGlockton for a second-round pick and then the league would give the Raiders a compensatory first-rounder.

Oakland would probably jump at the chance to unload McGlockton for that -- and the Raiders could save more than $2 million of cap money this season. Anything more than a second-rounder probably would scare teams away.

The Panthers might enter into this fray, too. If they decide to back out on Gilbert, they'd need a guy like McGlockton. And, let's not forget, McGlockton went to Clemson. . . .

The one team that still seems most likely to move around in Round 1 may be the Chicago Bears at No. 5.

What's up with Da Bears? Well, they may flop spots with St. Louis (at No. 6), possibly getting receiver Eddie Kennison in the deal. St. Louis would love to be at No. 5 to take Penn State running back Curtis Enis.

The Bears may stay put to take Enis, which would put Raymont Harris on the trading block.

The Bears reportedly are trying to get their paws on St. Louis receiver Kennison and deal down to the sixth spot for the No. 5 pick

(Jonathan Daniel/Allsport)

But the best bet is that the Bears will continue to trade down in this draft, maybe with Jacksonville (at picks 9 and 25), which also likes Enis. It's well known around Chicago that the Bears are trying to get as many draft picks as they can for their No. 5. . . .

And this late-breaker: The Bears have suggested two trades with the Rams and St. Louis has rejected both. The first was to flop picks and the Rams would trade Kennison to the Bears. The second move the Bears suggested was to flop first-rounders for the Rams' second-round pick.

The Rams seem resigned to stay at No. 6 and hope nobody grabs Enis . . .

As reported here, it's becoming clearer every day that New England (at No. 18) is liable to take a good cornerback or two before even worrying about running back. Two likely choices are safety Shaun Williams of UCLA or CB Duane Starks of Miami. . . .

Is any team more nervous in this draft than the Minnesota Vikings? After losing corner Dwayne Washington to free agency and being turned back at a chance to sign Washington corner Darryl Pounds (the Redskins matched the Vikes' offer), Minnesota desperately needs help in the defensive backfield. Corey Fuller is the only guy they have with any experience.

The Vikings don't pick until No. 21, and they're afraid that a run on corners in the mid- to late- first round could leave them high and dry. The guys they like are Starks and Corey Chavous of Vanderbilt. It could be close. . . .

Finally, there's a stronger feeling around the league every day that talented but troubled Marshall wide receiver Randy Moss is dropping like a rock through the draft. In the wildest case, he could fall as far as Seattle at No. 15.

He's liable to be the story of Draft Day.

 

[BGP]

I've missed on plenty of college players. But I was positive Manning would be way better than Leaf. It was all mental. Leaf had much better physicals than Manning. Many do.

But Leaf just looked like a loser. I saw all I needed to see in his final college game. (Rose Bowl?) They lost on a play where he was trying for the TD and it looked as if there could have been a pass interference call. Most QBs would have been going ballistic arguing the call or crushed with the defeat.

Leaf couldn't get his helmet off fast enough and was smiling and high fiving and shaking hands with the other team. Ready for the next thing.

Sort of like Aaron Brooks or Mike Vick does after a loss or interception.

This one was easy.

J

Sorry, but this example doesn't hold water. Mike Vick has been somewhat disappointing, but he is 26 and has not been a bust. Same for Aaron Brooks, who was a starter for 5 years in the NFL.I don't disagree that Manning had better mental makeup than Leaf, or that you personally rated Manning higher. I just think that if you made that assessment based on the example given, it was flawed... and it would make me question your judgment on other players coming out of college. I suspect that your assessment was based on much more than the simple example you cited here.

The real issue here is not whether Manning or Leaf should have gone first... it's that Leaf shouldn't have gone in the first round or even on the first day. The fact that he did indicates that the Chargers, and presumably most teams other than possibly the Colts, completely missed the mark in their assessment of his non-physical attributes and capabilities.

Sorry if that doesn't work for you. That lack of killer drive to win is big for me. I see it all over Brooks. Not as much for Vick but other things in him shows up. Like when he was hurt a couple of years ago. He stood on the sidelines and didn't even have his radio mic on to hear what was going on. Other QBs are hurt and they're like the assitant QB coach on the sidelines super into the game and managing it. That's cool if you think he shouldn't have gone on the first day. You'll be in a VERY small group of people if you were really saying that back then. Most felt Manning would be better. Some by a good bit. But I don't think many predicted Leaf to be a total flameout like he was.

J

This is a terrible way to judge character.You would look at Bill Belichick and see a guy that dresses shabby and seems disinterested in talking to media. You would look at that guy and say, "If he can't be bothered to put an effort in to get some decent clothes or be enthuiastic at a presser, he must be a loser."

Also feels a bit shallow. If you want to find the best people, you need more patience and understanding than this.

Poor example. Belichick had nearly three decades of NFL experience, most of it with great success as a D-coordinator, before he was hired. Leaf had no NFL experience and frankly little starting experience in college. To me, an attitude is much more important when there's little track record to hang your hat on, and that's inevitably going to be the case with rookies.

No its a great example in that, if all Joe had to go on was his criteria, he'd never hire Belichick.

 

[pablito]

Here is a good read from the past

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/.../15/the_latest/

If Indy steals Leaf, will San Diego charge after Wadsworth?

From The War Room

Posted: Wed April 15, 1997 at 07:30 AM ET

He's liable to be the story of Draft Day.

Wow, things change pretty fast around here...

 

[Liquid Tension]

Ryan Leaf today...sir, would you like fries with that?

why do people say this about failed pro athletes? guy made millions and millions of dollars. he could probably buy and sell you 15 times over.

Here's an idea for you. Take the corncob out of your ...And, he probably could for the record. But, I'll take my life over his any day!I have self respect for what I've accomplished. He signed a big contract and embarrassed himself nationally.

I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think Ryan Leaf is a bad person. He was a top player in college, which is a very high level of play, just not the highest. There should be plenty of respect for that. Further, he didn't paid for those services until he got a pro deal. Alright, he wasn't cut out to be an NFL QB. He made some personal mistakes. But even he will confess his role in the mess it was.I see a guy that is flawed but obviously is trying to improve himself. And he might not succeed ultimately but who knows.I can be tolerant with a Ryan Leaf. He a lot better person than, say, the Rooneys, Cowher or the NFL itself who can't admit how screwed up Super Bowl XL was to this day. At least Leaf can own up to any faults.

Agreed. I think FBG's with their perfect girlfriends and super elite upper tier careers and Mr. Olympia physiques have a tendency to overrate how they would do as 21-year old top-2 overall draft picks being given millions of dollars and put in front of the camera on a daily basis as the objects of adoration/hope/pressure/etc. from a city's football fanbase. What a shocker - a 21-year old (mind you, one who was certainly overrated) couldn't handle that pressure and melted down. The only surprising thing is that it doesn't happen more often.

I guess David and Joe gave you my bio pamphlet, although please don't tell my wife...

 

[Gr00vus]

I thought the Chargers had gotten the better player - right up until that meltdown he had on tape in the locker room where Junior had to restrain him. At that point I knew he was going to have problems. Serious problems.

That was probably THE low point of my Charger fandom - Ryan Leaf and Mike Riley. :X

 

[Joe Bryant]

I've missed on plenty of college players. But I was positive Manning would be way better than Leaf. It was all mental. Leaf had much better physicals than Manning. Many do.

But Leaf just looked like a loser. I saw all I needed to see in his final college game. (Rose Bowl?) They lost on a play where he was trying for the TD and it looked as if there could have been a pass interference call. Most QBs would have been going ballistic arguing the call or crushed with the defeat.

Leaf couldn't get his helmet off fast enough and was smiling and high fiving and shaking hands with the other team. Ready for the next thing.

Sort of like Aaron Brooks or Mike Vick does after a loss or interception.

This one was easy.

J

Sorry, but this example doesn't hold water. Mike Vick has been somewhat disappointing, but he is 26 and has not been a bust. Same for Aaron Brooks, who was a starter for 5 years in the NFL.I don't disagree that Manning had better mental makeup than Leaf, or that you personally rated Manning higher. I just think that if you made that assessment based on the example given, it was flawed... and it would make me question your judgment on other players coming out of college. I suspect that your assessment was based on much more than the simple example you cited here.

The real issue here is not whether Manning or Leaf should have gone first... it's that Leaf shouldn't have gone in the first round or even on the first day. The fact that he did indicates that the Chargers, and presumably most teams other than possibly the Colts, completely missed the mark in their assessment of his non-physical attributes and capabilities.

Sorry if that doesn't work for you. That lack of killer drive to win is big for me. I see it all over Brooks. Not as much for Vick but other things in him shows up. Like when he was hurt a couple of years ago. He stood on the sidelines and didn't even have his radio mic on to hear what was going on. Other QBs are hurt and they're like the assitant QB coach on the sidelines super into the game and managing it. That's cool if you think he shouldn't have gone on the first day. You'll be in a VERY small group of people if you were really saying that back then. Most felt Manning would be better. Some by a good bit. But I don't think many predicted Leaf to be a total flameout like he was.

J

Rereading your post, perhaps you were merely saying the reason you thought Manning would be better was his lack of drive, attitude, etc. That I can agree with. However, I thought you were implying you knew he would be a bust because of what you observed in the Rose Bowl. Now you cite his lack of killer drive to win as being comparable to Vick and Brooks. Frankly, being comparable to Vick and Brooks, while worse than being comparable to Favre, Elway, etc., is not an indicator that a QB will be a bust... since neither Vick nor Brooks has been a bust. That was my point.Also, I wasn't suggesting that I knew Leaf shouldn't be a first day pick back then... I was saying that the results show that in hindsight, and thus illustrates that the evaluation process missed the problems with Leaf's attitude, drive, maturity, etc.

Awesome. If we get to use hindsight, I'll put my picks up with anyone. J

 

[Joe Bryant]

I've missed on plenty of college players. But I was positive Manning would be way better than Leaf. It was all mental. Leaf had much better physicals than Manning. Many do.

But Leaf just looked like a loser. I saw all I needed to see in his final college game. (Rose Bowl?) They lost on a play where he was trying for the TD and it looked as if there could have been a pass interference call. Most QBs would have been going ballistic arguing the call or crushed with the defeat.

Leaf couldn't get his helmet off fast enough and was smiling and high fiving and shaking hands with the other team. Ready for the next thing.

Sort of like Aaron Brooks or Mike Vick does after a loss or interception.

This one was easy.

J

Sorry, but this example doesn't hold water. Mike Vick has been somewhat disappointing, but he is 26 and has not been a bust. Same for Aaron Brooks, who was a starter for 5 years in the NFL.I don't disagree that Manning had better mental makeup than Leaf, or that you personally rated Manning higher. I just think that if you made that assessment based on the example given, it was flawed... and it would make me question your judgment on other players coming out of college. I suspect that your assessment was based on much more than the simple example you cited here.

The real issue here is not whether Manning or Leaf should have gone first... it's that Leaf shouldn't have gone in the first round or even on the first day. The fact that he did indicates that the Chargers, and presumably most teams other than possibly the Colts, completely missed the mark in their assessment of his non-physical attributes and capabilities.

Sorry if that doesn't work for you. That lack of killer drive to win is big for me. I see it all over Brooks. Not as much for Vick but other things in him shows up. Like when he was hurt a couple of years ago. He stood on the sidelines and didn't even have his radio mic on to hear what was going on. Other QBs are hurt and they're like the assitant QB coach on the sidelines super into the game and managing it. That's cool if you think he shouldn't have gone on the first day. You'll be in a VERY small group of people if you were really saying that back then. Most felt Manning would be better. Some by a good bit. But I don't think many predicted Leaf to be a total flameout like he was.

J

This is a terrible way to judge character.You would look at Bill Belichick and see a guy that dresses shabby and seems disinterested in talking to media. You would look at that guy and say, "If he can't be bothered to put an effort in to get some decent clothes or be enthuiastic at a presser, he must be a loser."

Also feels a bit shallow. If you want to find the best people, you need more patience and understanding than this.

You ever see Belichick act like he wouldn't kill to win?J

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I thought the Chargers had gotten the better player - right up until that meltdown he had on tape in the locker room where Junior had to restrain him.

.

 

[Raider Nation]

Here is a good read from the past

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/.../15/the_latest/

If Indy steals Leaf, will San Diego charge after Wadsworth?

From The War Room

Posted: Wed April 15, 1997 at 07:30 AM ET

If Leaf blows over to Indy, don't be shocked if the Chargers pass on Manning (above) to grab Florida State defensive lineman Andre Wadsworth

PHOENIX (CNN/SI) -- There is an increasing rumbling out of San Diego that the Chargers may be leaning toward snagging Florida State defensive end Andre Wadsworth with the No. 2 pick in Saturday's NFL Draft.

That's if, and probably only if, the Indianapolis Colts take the player the Chargers really covet, quarterback Ryan Leaf, with the No. 1 selection.

The Chargers, in desperate need of a quarterback, want Washington State's Leaf in the worst of ways. If Indy grabs him, that leaves San Diego with a difficult decision -- take Wadsworth, the best player on most everyone's draft board but a guy who doesn't fill as critical a need, or go with Tennessee QB Peyton Manning, who the Chargers simply don't like as much as Leaf.

Interesting that the date (bolded) is 4/15/97. Manning, Leaf & Wadsworth were drafted in '98.

 

[Marauder]

Im pretty sure he married a charger cheerleader too.

He did, but I'm pretty sure they divorced a couple of years later.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Im pretty sure he married a charger cheerleader too.

He did, but I'm pretty sure they divorced a couple of years later.

I sat right next to her at a highschool football game once. She was h0tsor.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I've missed on plenty of college players. But I was positive Manning would be way better than Leaf. It was all mental. Leaf had much better physicals than Manning. Many do.

But Leaf just looked like a loser. I saw all I needed to see in his final college game. (Rose Bowl?) They lost on a play where he was trying for the TD and it looked as if there could have been a pass interference call. Most QBs would have been going ballistic arguing the call or crushed with the defeat.

Leaf couldn't get his helmet off fast enough and was smiling and high fiving and shaking hands with the other team. Ready for the next thing.

Sort of like Aaron Brooks or Mike Vick does after a loss or interception.

This one was easy.

J

Sorry, but this example doesn't hold water. Mike Vick has been somewhat disappointing, but he is 26 and has not been a bust. Same for Aaron Brooks, who was a starter for 5 years in the NFL.I don't disagree that Manning had better mental makeup than Leaf, or that you personally rated Manning higher. I just think that if you made that assessment based on the example given, it was flawed... and it would make me question your judgment on other players coming out of college. I suspect that your assessment was based on much more than the simple example you cited here.

The real issue here is not whether Manning or Leaf should have gone first... it's that Leaf shouldn't have gone in the first round or even on the first day. The fact that he did indicates that the Chargers, and presumably most teams other than possibly the Colts, completely missed the mark in their assessment of his non-physical attributes and capabilities.

Sorry if that doesn't work for you. That lack of killer drive to win is big for me. I see it all over Brooks. Not as much for Vick but other things in him shows up. Like when he was hurt a couple of years ago. He stood on the sidelines and didn't even have his radio mic on to hear what was going on. Other QBs are hurt and they're like the assitant QB coach on the sidelines super into the game and managing it. That's cool if you think he shouldn't have gone on the first day. You'll be in a VERY small group of people if you were really saying that back then. Most felt Manning would be better. Some by a good bit. But I don't think many predicted Leaf to be a total flameout like he was.

J

This is a terrible way to judge character.You would look at Bill Belichick and see a guy that dresses shabby and seems disinterested in talking to media. You would look at that guy and say, "If he can't be bothered to put an effort in to get some decent clothes or be enthuiastic at a presser, he must be a loser."

Also feels a bit shallow. If you want to find the best people, you need more patience and understanding than this.

Poor example. Belichick had nearly three decades of NFL experience, most of it with great success as a D-coordinator, before he was hired. Leaf had no NFL experience and frankly little starting experience in college. To me, an attitude is much more important when there's little track record to hang your hat on, and that's inevitably going to be the case with rookies.

Thanks Redman, agreed.You bring up another important point. Like it or not, we are forced to make relatively snap decisions many times on guys.

It would have been awesome if Ryan Leaf had 3 years of NFL starting experience for us to judge. He didn't. He had starting experience in college. The teams certainly get to look a lot closer than we do but even they are making giant decisions based on a very limited information pool.

Is it fair? Or patient? Absolutley not. But what option do you have? Never draft an NFL player and deal in just free agents?

Same thing came up this summer with Grossman. Based on the very limited live game snaps I'd seen of the guy, I said he sucked. People yelled that it was too soon to say that. No it wasn't. Brian Griese was sitting right there. If you thought he sucked, right then and there was the time to make your move.

Obviously Lovie Smith disagreed with my assessment. And that's one of many reasons why Mr. Smith is in Miami today and I'm in Knoxville

But the fact remains that you, or me, or Lovie Smith absolutely do not have a lot of time to make decisions in many cases.

J

 

[Tau837]

I've missed on plenty of college players. But I was positive Manning would be way better than Leaf. It was all mental. Leaf had much better physicals than Manning. Many do.

But Leaf just looked like a loser. I saw all I needed to see in his final college game. (Rose Bowl?) They lost on a play where he was trying for the TD and it looked as if there could have been a pass interference call. Most QBs would have been going ballistic arguing the call or crushed with the defeat.

Leaf couldn't get his helmet off fast enough and was smiling and high fiving and shaking hands with the other team. Ready for the next thing.

Sort of like Aaron Brooks or Mike Vick does after a loss or interception.

This one was easy.

J

Sorry, but this example doesn't hold water. Mike Vick has been somewhat disappointing, but he is 26 and has not been a bust. Same for Aaron Brooks, who was a starter for 5 years in the NFL.I don't disagree that Manning had better mental makeup than Leaf, or that you personally rated Manning higher. I just think that if you made that assessment based on the example given, it was flawed... and it would make me question your judgment on other players coming out of college. I suspect that your assessment was based on much more than the simple example you cited here.

The real issue here is not whether Manning or Leaf should have gone first... it's that Leaf shouldn't have gone in the first round or even on the first day. The fact that he did indicates that the Chargers, and presumably most teams other than possibly the Colts, completely missed the mark in their assessment of his non-physical attributes and capabilities.

Sorry if that doesn't work for you. That lack of killer drive to win is big for me. I see it all over Brooks. Not as much for Vick but other things in him shows up. Like when he was hurt a couple of years ago. He stood on the sidelines and didn't even have his radio mic on to hear what was going on. Other QBs are hurt and they're like the assitant QB coach on the sidelines super into the game and managing it. That's cool if you think he shouldn't have gone on the first day. You'll be in a VERY small group of people if you were really saying that back then. Most felt Manning would be better. Some by a good bit. But I don't think many predicted Leaf to be a total flameout like he was.

J

Rereading your post, perhaps you were merely saying the reason you thought Manning would be better was his lack of drive, attitude, etc. That I can agree with. However, I thought you were implying you knew he would be a bust because of what you observed in the Rose Bowl. Now you cite his lack of killer drive to win as being comparable to Vick and Brooks. Frankly, being comparable to Vick and Brooks, while worse than being comparable to Favre, Elway, etc., is not an indicator that a QB will be a bust... since neither Vick nor Brooks has been a bust. That was my point.Also, I wasn't suggesting that I knew Leaf shouldn't be a first day pick back then... I was saying that the results show that in hindsight, and thus illustrates that the evaluation process missed the problems with Leaf's attitude, drive, maturity, etc.

Awesome. If we get to use hindsight, I'll put my picks up with anyone. J

I wasn't using hindsight to pick anything. I was saying that it illustrates that the scouts did a lousy job of discovering Leaf's flaws. Sheesh.

 

[DBIsports]

I saw all I needed to see when Leaf scored a TD against the Colts early in his career and made a huge effort to spike the ball, IMO, to show up Peyton Manning and the Colts for not draftign him.Ryan Leaf today...sir, would you like fries with that?

I don't mean any disrespect Pizza,but I'm a Colts fan and I am relatively certain that Leaf never scored a td on the Colts

 

[switz]

Not hard if you saw Leaf play in college.

I disagree. Leaf, I thought, had the better measurables. Peyton the better intangibles.I still think Leaf, given the right coaching, could have been a Pro Bowl calibre QB, but more along the lines of a Drew Bledsoe than a heady QB like Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, or Peyton Manning.

 

[pizzatyme]

I saw all I needed to see when Leaf scored a TD against the Colts early in his career and made a huge effort to spike the ball, IMO, to show up Peyton Manning and the Colts for not draftign him.Ryan Leaf today...sir, would you like fries with that?

I don't mean any disrespect Pizza,but I'm a Colts fan and I am relatively certain that Leaf never scored a td on the Colts

I stand corrected. It happened in 1998 week 5 in Indy and Natrone Means scored and gave the ball to Leaf who then proceeded to spike it.

 

[Gr00vus]

Natrone Means scored and gave the ball

Now that guy was cool.

 

[Joe T]

I've missed on plenty of college players. But I was positive Manning would be way better than Leaf. It was all mental. Leaf had much better physicals than Manning. Many do.

But Leaf just looked like a loser. I saw all I needed to see in his final college game. (Rose Bowl?) They lost on a play where he was trying for the TD and it looked as if there could have been a pass interference call. Most QBs would have been going ballistic arguing the call or crushed with the defeat.

Leaf couldn't get his helmet off fast enough and was smiling and high fiving and shaking hands with the other team. Ready for the next thing.

Sort of like Aaron Brooks or Mike Vick does after a loss or interception.

This one was easy.

J

Sorry, but this example doesn't hold water. Mike Vick has been somewhat disappointing, but he is 26 and has not been a bust. Same for Aaron Brooks, who was a starter for 5 years in the NFL.I don't disagree that Manning had better mental makeup than Leaf, or that you personally rated Manning higher. I just think that if you made that assessment based on the example given, it was flawed... and it would make me question your judgment on other players coming out of college. I suspect that your assessment was based on much more than the simple example you cited here.

The real issue here is not whether Manning or Leaf should have gone first... it's that Leaf shouldn't have gone in the first round or even on the first day. The fact that he did indicates that the Chargers, and presumably most teams other than possibly the Colts, completely missed the mark in their assessment of his non-physical attributes and capabilities.

Sorry if that doesn't work for you. That lack of killer drive to win is big for me. I see it all over Brooks. Not as much for Vick but other things in him shows up. Like when he was hurt a couple of years ago. He stood on the sidelines and didn't even have his radio mic on to hear what was going on. Other QBs are hurt and they're like the assitant QB coach on the sidelines super into the game and managing it. That's cool if you think he shouldn't have gone on the first day. You'll be in a VERY small group of people if you were really saying that back then. Most felt Manning would be better. Some by a good bit. But I don't think many predicted Leaf to be a total flameout like he was.

J

This is a terrible way to judge character.You would look at Bill Belichick and see a guy that dresses shabby and seems disinterested in talking to media. You would look at that guy and say, "If he can't be bothered to put an effort in to get some decent clothes or be enthuiastic at a presser, he must be a loser."

Also feels a bit shallow. If you want to find the best people, you need more patience and understanding than this.

Donald Trump down?

 

[Despyzer]

Natrone Means scored and gave the ball

Now that guy was cool.

Natrone BombNatrone Means BusinessNay-NayHe was VERY cool.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

PHOENIX (CNN/SI) -- There is an increasing rumbling out of San Diego that the Chargers may be leaning toward snagging Florida State defensive end Andre Wadsworth with the No. 2 pick in Saturday's NFL Draft.

That's if, and probably only if, the Indianapolis Colts take the player the Chargers really covet, quarterback Ryan Leaf, with the No. 1 selection.

The Chargers, in desperate need of a quarterback, want Washington State's Leaf in the worst of ways. If Indy grabs him, that leaves San Diego with a difficult decision -- take Wadsworth, the best player on most everyone's draft board but a guy who doesn't fill as critical a need, or go with Tennessee QB Peyton Manning, who the Chargers simply don't like as much as Leaf.

The Chargers wanted Manning."The only assurance I got on that was from (then-Chargers GM) Bobby Beathard, who told me if Indianapolis didn't take Peyton, the Chargers would. Some people have said, 'Oh, the Chargers were going to take Ryan anyway.' Well, I've known Bobby Beathard a long time. He was calling me every day saying, 'Do you think the Colts are going to take Ryan? I hope they take Ryan.' It was nothing against Ryan, he liked Ryan. But he was hoping the Colts wouldn't take Peyton, because he wanted him." -- Archie Manning

 

[Despyzer]

The Chargers wanted Manning.

"The only assurance I got on that was from (then-Chargers GM) Bobby Beathard, who told me if Indianapolis didn't take Peyton, the Chargers would. Some people have said, 'Oh, the Chargers were going to take Ryan anyway.' Well, I've known Bobby Beathard a long time. He was calling me every day saying, 'Do you think the Colts are going to take Ryan? I hope they take Ryan.' It was nothing against Ryan, he liked Ryan. But he was hoping the Colts wouldn't take Peyton, because he wanted him." -- Archie Manning

Was Archie demanding that the Chargers not draft Peyton if the Colts passed on him?

 

[Pip's Invitation]

But what option do you have? Never draft an NFL player and deal in just free agents?

Sure, that's the path the Redskins have chosen. :X