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Phenoms going under (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter JohnW1970
- Start date
Hu-Tang Clan
Footballguy
This is the first I've heard of this site but can someone give me some background? How long have they been around? Who is this guy that ran it? I clicked on the link above to see the site and based on first impressions there's no way I would ever have signed up for that and sent money. It looks pretty amateurish.
ArbyMelt
Footballguy
On average he pays out around 85% on his leagues (let's take the $100 league as average). He probably has 2% charges on credit card fees, and $50 a league for MFL (about 4%-ish).
so he's making somewhere less than 9% with any other fees, let's call it 8%.
He took in roughly $1.1 mill, so he prob makes somewhere north of $75k.
He has to manage all the drafts, which during busy season, this could be 12+ drafts a day, with 4-5 going on at the same time. It takes alot of time for a few months, but then he has to manage the leagues during the season. Live drafts are the toughest for him, people show up late, lose their internet connection, etc. Its not an easy job.
(This is only for football - no idea how is other sports work).
so he's making somewhere less than 9% with any other fees, let's call it 8%.
He took in roughly $1.1 mill, so he prob makes somewhere north of $75k.
He has to manage all the drafts, which during busy season, this could be 12+ drafts a day, with 4-5 going on at the same time. It takes alot of time for a few months, but then he has to manage the leagues during the season. Live drafts are the toughest for him, people show up late, lose their internet connection, etc. Its not an easy job.
(This is only for football - no idea how is other sports work).
cloppbeast
Footballguy
The trust issue would go away a little if at least some legal ramifications existed for this kind of thing. Bernie rots in jail for similar stuff, and I see no reason Mike shouldn't join him. Why shouldn't he? He stole money. As a matter of principle his actions differ very little from what is a punishable deed in the financial industry. So what if it's fantasy football instead?
If Mike simply gets to go bankrupt like an over zealous credit user, I think something needs to be done. Interpret that how you want.
lynx4ben
Footballguy
And it would take nearly 20 years to net the 1.1 million by conventional means. So why not just take it all at once. Bah! I honestly believe he tried to invest in software; but probably didn't know too much about actually managing a project of this magnitude. In the end decided to crook it.
Marauder
Footballguy
Full Tilt Poker, Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker were way bigger operations than FD and DK. That didn't stop them from stealing their customers money dipping into depositors money for operating expenses.
I do feel somewhat better about FD and DK though, not because of their size, but because of the large investments by legitimate VC firms. Those guys almost certainly do their own audits before investing their money.
I still only leave a small amount of money on those sites and make frequent cash-outs when I win, just as I did with the online poker sites, so if they ever do go under at least I will have already cashed out more than I have on deposit with them which lessens the blow somewhat. That's true with Phenoms as well. I've certainly cashed out more over the past 4 years or so that I've been playing there than I paid in entry fees this year. I just don't feel you can fully trust any site in the gambling industry but since Poker and FF are my two favorite hobbies I'm not going to stop playing, all I can do is minimize my exposure on any one site as much as possible.
JaxBill
Footballguy
While I'm certainly sympathetic, I was just wondering what kind of reaction you received from the local police. Seems like a small town there and wasn't sure how they'd react to out-of-towners calling in to report a crime.
Yamato
Footballguy
I paid through Paypal with a direct deposit from my checking account. Spoke to my bank and they said the chances were slim that a chargeback would work. Right now I'm looking at maybe winning over $4000 if I can get into the final in the Omega league I'm in. So there is a good chance I'm going to be a raging bull come this time next week.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Not truly a small town. Murray is one of many "small towns" that are all interconnected from Logan, UT south to Provo, UT that make up the Salt Lake Valley. If there's 2.5 million people in Utah, 2.2 million live in this valley (those numbers aren't perfect, but you get the point). Murray is just part of the greater Salt Lake City area. The address above are grid system coordinates with Temple Square (center city) being 0 S, 0 E.
If he's not a member of the church, the police would probably love to make an example out of him. KSL5 would probably love to cover it as one more lesson on the evils of gambling. Problem is there are so many con's out here that this story might not even be interesting.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
People in Saudi Arabia get their hand chopped off for stealing a loaf of bread. In the U.S. you can steal $400,000 (or more) with only some damage to your reputation.
ZWK
Footballguy
Thanks for this info, Adam!
Does anyone have information on how much we can trust LeagueSafe, or the various smaller DFS sites?
Mookie
Footballguy
Local authorities might not be much help since this is a crime that is out of their ordinary wheel house. Calling the feds might yield better results, as he was soliciting money from out of state. Going to be tough to prove that he intended to steal from the outset though. These runaway commishes will usually hide behind bankruptcy instead, claiming it was just a failed business.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
If it can be proven that he was robbing Peter to pay Paul "Ponzi scheme", then he can't hide behind the "failed business" card. Or at least I wouldn't think he could.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
I feel bad for all who are owed money. Even if what he said was true and he got in over his head with website costs, he should not have been using his customer's money for that. That money was not for him to borrow even if he thought he could eventually replenish it. Instead of taking out a business loan from the bank he used his customer's money without their permission as an interest free loan. That's not right.
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I've had many email conversations over the years with Mike. I don't know him personally though. I helped him lay out the rules for his keeper contract leagues when he was looking for some input because it was his first time doing them and I had several years experience with that type of format.
Like everyone else I am stunned to hear the news. A lot of you have come up with different theories and I have read them all. Mike mentioned to me once that the reason he first started the Greek Leagues here on FBG was because he didn't get paid for his winnings on some other site way back in 2001.
He was always trying to add as many things as possible: every type of league imaginable, every scoring format imaginable, every sport imaginable (he finally got basketball and hockey added this year). He told me 3 or 4 years ago that wanted to add his own software to the mix because he didn't like some aspects of MFL etc. so that idea was long-in-the-making.
After mulling it over for a few days and trying to recall all my past communication with Mike I think one of 2 things is going on here:
1) This was a scam 10 years in the making. Start off small. Gain trust. Add more leagues. Gain more trust. Get bigger. Improve website and functionality. Add more leagues and other sports. Gain even more trust. Look for the right year to make off with the money.
OR
2) Something in his personal life (some of you have thrown the idea out there of possible gambling addiction or financial problems?) has triggered him to take advantage of all the money he had in his possession.
Either way (1) or (2) is an illegal act.
I am in only one $100 league this year so my loss isn't large. However, this happens to be my most successful year on Phenoms as I'm finally in the final and I can not be caught for the overall points title either. Do I think I'm going to see a dime of my winnings? No. I'm in Canada as well so that might be another hurdle to overcome in trying to recover winnings/entry fee owed to me.
I won't be playing in any more leagues online after this. Back in 2004 or so I played on AntSports and won my league and received my winnings promptly. Luckily I never played on Ant after that so I dodged that bullet. I switched over to Phenoms from Ant around 2005. [SIZE=13.63636302948px] I'll just be sticking to the local league that I've been a part of since 1992. Yes, I've been playing fantasy football for 23 years.[/SIZE]
There were never any indications or red flags of this coming. Phenoms was very well run. Probably the best run set of fantasy football leagues that I've seen in my 23 years of playing. Rules were good and clear. Disputes were dealt with efficiently. Prize money was always paid promptly. Large variety of leagues to choose from to satisfy everyone's taste. None of us can be blamed for leaving our money with "a guy named Mike from the Shark Pool" because the word of mouth and reputation were so good and the risk looked minimal but like everything else in life you never know. Heck, I've been scammed by large, reputable companies so who can you trust anymore?
I'll leave you with this Facebook post by Mike on August 20th of this year:
Michael ZangrilliAntsports is evil
August 20 ·
I've been getting a lot of former Antsports players to my site, PhenomsFF.com. If you're looking for leagues with victory points and much higher payouts, give me a look. I realize this is pretty spammy, but I empathize with those of you upset about not getting paid and looking for a quality money league to play in this year.https://www.phenomsff.com/
Like everyone else I am stunned to hear the news. A lot of you have come up with different theories and I have read them all. Mike mentioned to me once that the reason he first started the Greek Leagues here on FBG was because he didn't get paid for his winnings on some other site way back in 2001.
He was always trying to add as many things as possible: every type of league imaginable, every scoring format imaginable, every sport imaginable (he finally got basketball and hockey added this year). He told me 3 or 4 years ago that wanted to add his own software to the mix because he didn't like some aspects of MFL etc. so that idea was long-in-the-making.
After mulling it over for a few days and trying to recall all my past communication with Mike I think one of 2 things is going on here:
1) This was a scam 10 years in the making. Start off small. Gain trust. Add more leagues. Gain more trust. Get bigger. Improve website and functionality. Add more leagues and other sports. Gain even more trust. Look for the right year to make off with the money.
OR
2) Something in his personal life (some of you have thrown the idea out there of possible gambling addiction or financial problems?) has triggered him to take advantage of all the money he had in his possession.
Either way (1) or (2) is an illegal act.
I am in only one $100 league this year so my loss isn't large. However, this happens to be my most successful year on Phenoms as I'm finally in the final and I can not be caught for the overall points title either. Do I think I'm going to see a dime of my winnings? No. I'm in Canada as well so that might be another hurdle to overcome in trying to recover winnings/entry fee owed to me.
I won't be playing in any more leagues online after this. Back in 2004 or so I played on AntSports and won my league and received my winnings promptly. Luckily I never played on Ant after that so I dodged that bullet. I switched over to Phenoms from Ant around 2005. [SIZE=13.63636302948px] I'll just be sticking to the local league that I've been a part of since 1992. Yes, I've been playing fantasy football for 23 years.[/SIZE]
There were never any indications or red flags of this coming. Phenoms was very well run. Probably the best run set of fantasy football leagues that I've seen in my 23 years of playing. Rules were good and clear. Disputes were dealt with efficiently. Prize money was always paid promptly. Large variety of leagues to choose from to satisfy everyone's taste. None of us can be blamed for leaving our money with "a guy named Mike from the Shark Pool" because the word of mouth and reputation were so good and the risk looked minimal but like everything else in life you never know. Heck, I've been scammed by large, reputable companies so who can you trust anymore?
I'll leave you with this Facebook post by Mike on August 20th of this year:
Michael ZangrilliAntsports is evil
August 20 ·
I've been getting a lot of former Antsports players to my site, PhenomsFF.com. If you're looking for leagues with victory points and much higher payouts, give me a look. I realize this is pretty spammy, but I empathize with those of you upset about not getting paid and looking for a quality money league to play in this year.https://www.phenomsff.com/
JohnnyU
Footballguy
comfortably numb
Footballguy
I like the news outlet angle. Just need to find someone locally willing to sink their teeth into it.
This isn't some 16 year old who walked away with $867.
You can swing this story to read "local man collects millions in fantasy football games and leaves thousands high and dry"
This isn't some 16 year old who walked away with $867.
You can swing this story to read "local man collects millions in fantasy football games and leaves thousands high and dry"
Peyton Marino
Footballguy
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
It's considered something, i don't know exactly what the legal definition would be. I'd go with theft. If someone asked you to hold $100 for them for a few months and after a few months they'd come back to pick it up and pay you $10 for holding it for that amount of time, if you told them you spent the $90 they were expecting for a down payment on a new wallet that ended up costing more than you thought, I think they wouldn't be happy. They'd be wondering why you thought you could buy something for yourself with their money.
I would think that something like this would start small, a few grand here or there to cover personal expenses, all the while thinking the business will grow and it'll be easy to pay it back. Then after years of doing this the person realizes they are in too deep and there is no way they can ever get back to even. Obviously I am just speculating. I think it would be hard to be working 100 hours a week building a business and making only small amount of profit all the while being able to see the giant wad of players funds sitting in your bank account.
ArbyMelt
Footballguy
I emailed tips@deadspin.com ..... might be a cool story for them to run, but nothing yet, sent it this morning.
Penguin
Footballguy
I called, they had me call consumer affairs as she said they were already running with the Phenoms investigation. The number she gave me was 801-530-6601
Chili Cheese Burrito
Footballguy
Huffington post will publish it if enough people complain. I'm tied up for the next couple days and won't be able to reach out to them.
In relation to paying with paypal. PayPal has a dispute process. If you pay with credit card and it's after 90 days you cannot dispute with PayPal. You would have to contact your card issuer. The card issuer contacts PayPal. PayPal has a chargebacks department that works chargebacks all day long 24/7. The chargeback will come in and PayPal will notify you that you have filed a chargeback with your CC company. PayPal will notify scammer, I mean seller as well.
Scammer will have 7 days to respond. If scammer doesn't respond, PayPal will not be able to provide information to support scammer. Ultimately we should get our money back unless your card issuer states they don't provide protection for services.
Going through PayPal is great because the card issuer won't eat the loss. PayPal will. The card issuer knows this and will want to satisfy their customers. PayPal is trashed upon countlessly and these are reasons they are strict in regards to wanting to know what transactions are for and what not. However, in this situation no amount of risk mitigation really could been in place as he has had such a great track record.
So if you sell an item and PayPal holds the money, think of jerks like this guy who ruins it for everybody.
Born to Run
Footballguy
Got the email and it is sad news. Been playing Phenoms for a few years and it has been a good experience. Mike has been solid as a commissioner.
The good news is Phenoms is now offering discount pricing on 2015 leagues!
The good news is Phenoms is now offering discount pricing on 2015 leagues!
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
These types of frauds always fascinate me...it tends to be in my wheelhouse as both an accountant and a (former) FF player.
I will say that while I have no knowledge of this specific situation, it has always seemed like #2 is the prevalent scenario. Obviously it's very difficult to get any real information or backstory, but I just find it extremely hard to believe that this is a long-con scenario in most instances of these frauds. When he started this website, I'm sure he had no idea how well it would even get off of the ground.
While I don't even really doubt the software development story is somewhat legitimate, there is surely more to the story. Looking at the way his operation is setup, he's got multiple different fantasy sports in operation. That means he has a fairly steady stream of payments (escrow + his commissions) coming in throughout the year - though I imagine that his football take is far and away his biggest moneymaker. You could theoretically use escrow funds for personal expenses and no one would know, as long as you've received the next sport's deposits and can replace the deficit. A fraudster could keep this cycle going for a long time, but eventually the day of reckoning comes.
This is what someone (ArbyMelt?) referred to earlier and I agreed with. I find it extremely hard to believe that this was a legitimate business blunder. If I had to guess, knowing nothing of this guy, I'd imagine that he had been skimming and replacing money over a longer period of time in a vicious cycle...and eventually it got too unwieldy. Maybe he has gambling debts that are killing him. Maybe he had an unforeseen medical emergency (I've seen this in a different case unrelated to this one). Maybe he's being sued by a software developer over unpaid invoices. Maybe he took on debt (though not sure who would lend to this type of business) and that debt is coming due. Maybe something else. But the problem is that for the first time, he can't get the money to pay out the FF players. The house of cards has fallen and there's no way out. I may be wrong, but I would be very surprised if I'm totally 100% completely off the mark. If it's a legitimate business blunder, it's one of the most unbelievably astoundingly bad business decisions I have ever seen.
So far, the police have been very helpful and responsive. It's unclear if that address is correct--I am still doing my best to try and figure it out.
17seconds
root of all aliai
I guess you could say I'm "defending" him as much as anyone here, and I'm not defending him. I'm only making a guess as to what must be happening based on his history as the business owner and commish of the leagues. He had a great track record until now.
Have yet to see anyone say he deserves to get away with this and be forgiven.
Does anyone know Mike or have a picture of Mike? Assuming he's not using a fake name/identity (and that's a big if), I would think someone would be able to provide details that would be helpful to the police/authorities in tracking him down. Someone must know who he is and/or where he is.
Dragon1952
Footballguy
For those of you contacting the authorities as individuals please be advised that there is a group action currently in progress. The contact information is in the following thread.
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=722853
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=722853
It looks like he was featured on KSL5 (NBC affiliate in Salt Lake City) about a year ago but no picture of him.
http://www.prlog.org/12247382-phenoms-fantasy-sports-featured-in-ksl5-studio-report-on-fantasy-sports-insurance.html
http://www.prlog.org/12247382-phenoms-fantasy-sports-featured-in-ksl5-studio-report-on-fantasy-sports-insurance.html
Jed
Footballguy
Paying with a CC and Paypal gives you double "protection". You can still dispute your CC.
JimmyJabroni
Footballguy
I was trying to do some internet sleuthing to see if I could find something.
Found an article on fantasy football with him in it, from back in 1998, on Penn State website
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_4086c529-b381-5df9-9df3-bcb2d8058a8c.html
"It makes all the games exciting because you have players to watch in almost every game," said Mike Zangrilli (sophomore-chemical engineering), who currently competes in four fantasy football leagues.
Found an article on fantasy football with him in it, from back in 1998, on Penn State website
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_4086c529-b381-5df9-9df3-bcb2d8058a8c.html
"It makes all the games exciting because you have players to watch in almost every game," said Mike Zangrilli (sophomore-chemical engineering), who currently competes in four fantasy football leagues.
Here is a link to the TrustPilot reviews of the Phenoms website in case any of you want to search through 236 reviews:
https://www.trustpilot.com/review/phenomsff.com
It seems that a lot of people did complain about the user interface which explains why Mike was talking about improving it for a number of years now. Below some of these 236 reviews Mike personally gives a reply.
https://www.trustpilot.com/review/phenomsff.com
It seems that a lot of people did complain about the user interface which explains why Mike was talking about improving it for a number of years now. Below some of these 236 reviews Mike personally gives a reply.
ArbyMelt
Footballguy
my limited research, can't find any pics though (except him skiing). looks like he deleted facebook, twitter, linkedin, but there is a myspace and google plus, nothing exciting there.
bartender - it closed
http://www.skinet.com/skiing/fondue-party/food-and-drink/2009/06/boozing-in-utah
skiing
http://www.tetongravity.com/story/snowboard/Park-City-Show-261071#!
https://tandemstock.com/assets/31180793
reference to him being in SLC (dad wins award)
http://www.cpewc.com/awards/awards_archive/tech_achievement/2011ta.html
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Paulymaggs
Footballguy
I would seriously urge those that are currently taking action to STOP him from "selling" the platform/customer db right now.
These are about the only things of value left with which you guys can recoup.
These are about the only things of value left with which you guys can recoup.
fatness
Footballguy
Smaller scale, but add the Misfits & Outlaws leagues (2013)Craig_MiamiFL said:
about 18 leagues
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Otis
Footballguy
Hooper31
Footballguy
He was a long time board member (Unlucky) here at FBG. He started running leagues largely composed of guys that posted here. I can't remember the details, but he was a staff member for a bit. You would have to asked Joe or David for details there. I interacted with him a bunch. Seemed a solid guy and he built a great reputation here among board members. Hence, a guy like me isn't going to be so quick to condemn the guy. I'm not trying to excuse the guy's actions, but my default setting is going to be that he did something stupid and just flushed his life down the toilet. I understand why people would want to quickly condemn the guy as a thief, but someone like myself or Bri who have been around for a long time are going to withhold judgment without knowing more. I'm not excusing his actions because I don't really know what those actions were. Do I feel for guys that might be out $100 bucks? Sure. Some might be even out more than that. That blows and you have my sympathies, but like I said my default is that Mike did something stupid and his life is a heck of a lot worse than it was a year ago. How can any of us know for certain? I certainly don't.Hu-Tang Clan said:
Otis
Footballguy
What "stupid" thing could he have done, other than take other peoples' money that was supposed to be put in escrow and spend the hell out of it?
Arguably beyond stupid and into unethical.
mattlambertson
Footballguy
I paid through Paypal in a series of smaller transactions as I decided to join more and more leagues during the preseason...just disputed all the transactions today. Paypal allowed me to go through the entire dispute process and allowed the cases to show up in the Resolution Center despite being past the 45 days...then a few minutes later, one by one they gradually disappeared, marked closed by either a software script or a heartless employee. Really disappointing that they would allow me to waste my time creating disputes and allowing them to look legitimate only to close them for me without even contacting me. This is not the first time I've seen paypal act in a manner that a smaller company could never get away with...wish I could boycott them but they're so ubiquitous I don't have the patience to do so. It would take a programmer only a few minutes to make the resolution submission process stop you when you click on a transaction that's older than 45 days. Or better yet, not even show transactions older than 45 days. To allow you to do it anyway when they know they are not going to look into it...quite odd.
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Why do you have to have been around for a long time? "Best" case scenario here is that what he said happened is actually true, and that is still 100% wrong.
JimmyJabroni
Footballguy
Found a profile of him on this website.
http://www.opportunity-investor.com/authordetail.php?autid=1720
he joined Nov of last year
Not sure what the website is...looks like a get rich quick type website?
http://www.opportunity-investor.com/
http://www.opportunity-investor.com/authordetail.php?autid=1720
he joined Nov of last year
Not sure what the website is...looks like a get rich quick type website?
http://www.opportunity-investor.com/
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this sums up me pretty well too at this point
kutta
Footballguy
Well that's pretty interesting...
17seconds
root of all aliai
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