Phenoms going under (2 Viewers)

[BigOlBar]

I received a different reply.

"

Xxxxx,

I have been trying for months to find buyers. This notice has sparked inquiries. I am continuing to work diligently through potential resolution strategies. Please send all legal inquiries relating to Phenom Enterprises, LLC, to legal counsel at the following email address: phenomslegal@gmail.com. Thank you.

"

There is so much money in this industry now, I would think his site, customer list, etc. would have significant value...

 

[BRONG]

It's easy to just pile on and call him a crook instead of actually using your brain. Mike has earned the benefit of the doubt to me. If partial prize money, keeper deposits, and basketball entry fees aren't paid, then I will lead the charge against him. Until then, I'm taking a wait and see approach.

MIKE ZANGRILLILOLOL and his $600K web expert like this post.

...from a bar in Costa Rica.

 

[fatness]

Prize money is held securely in Phenom Enterprises, LLC business accounts with Wells Fargo and Paypal. You can trust that prize payouts are made quickly and in full at the completion of the fantasy season.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LdMybAuziHYJ:https://www.phenomsff.com/prizes/prizes.php+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

 

[thetman]

It's easy to just pile on and call him a crook instead of actually using your brain. Mike has earned the benefit of the doubt to me. If partial prize money, keeper deposits, and basketball entry fees aren't paid, then I will lead the charge against him. Until then, I'm taking a wait and see approach.

Also, you say if "partial prize money" isn't paid? So paying folks 20-40% is good enough in your view and absolves him? That is insane.

Serious question...is using prize money to develop the site a crime or just bad business? I'm not an ambulance chasing lawyer so I don't know the answer.

 

[Yamato]

Didn't Phenoms offer hockey and Basketball leagues? I'm assuming those guys are screwed as well.

 

[thetman]

All we need now is Christo to roll his fat ### lawyer sarcasm into this thread.

 

[John Bender]

He might be trying to fix this but you don't

A. Delete your existence from the board and all forms of social media if you're an up and up guy. He's trying to hide... That's what these actions say. That's not good for anyone.

B. Use pool money for website upgrades in the first place. That's not your profit. That money is not yours, it's the customers.

You take out a business loan. If you put up the 200k and costs for the website exceed it, you cut your losses or find a solution. That's how you run a business.

Who is going to buy a business when you're going into it already owing hundreds of thousands to your "customers"

I don't care what the user base is, most of those folks are going to have a horrible taste in their mouth. Under this xtreme optimal conditions you might make your money back in 3 years.

Not happening.

 

[thetman]

Didn't Phenoms offer hockey and Basketball leagues? I'm assuming those guys are screwed as well.

Yes, baseball, basketball, and hockey leagues were available on phenoms, but football was the majority of his business.

 

[BobbyLayne]

He might be trying to fix this but you don't

A. Delete your existence from the board and all forms of social media if you're an up and up guy. He's trying to hide... That's what these actions say. That's not good for anyone.

B. Use pool money for website upgrades in the first place. That's not your profit. That money is not yours, it's the customers.

You take out a business loan. If you put up the 200k and costs for the website exceed it, you cut your losses or find a solution. That's how you run a business.

Who is going to buy a business when you're going into it already owing hundreds of thousands to your "customers"

I don't care what the user base is, most of those folks are going to have a horrible taste in their mouth. Under this xtreme optimal conditions you might make your money back in 3 years.

Not happening.

But he's answering emails!

 

[thetman]

He might be trying to fix this but you don't

A. Delete your existence from the board and all forms of social media if you're an up and up guy. He's trying to hide... That's what these actions say. That's not good for anyone.

B. Use pool money for website upgrades in the first place. That's not your profit. That money is not yours, it's the customers.

You take out a business loan. If you put up the 200k and costs for the website exceed it, you cut your losses or find a solution. That's how you run a business.

Who is going to buy a business when you're going into it already owing hundreds of thousands to your "customers"

I don't care what the user base is, most of those folks are going to have a horrible taste in their mouth. Under this xtreme optimal conditions you might make your money back in 3 years.

Not happening.

I can understand getting rid of his accounts to avoid the flood of negative posts he was sure to receive. Using the prize money was his fatal mistake, but is it criminal? I'm not sure.

 

[adb255]

It's easy to just pile on and call him a crook instead of actually using your brain. Mike has earned the benefit of the doubt to me. If partial prize money, keeper deposits, and basketball entry fees aren't paid, then I will lead the charge against him. Until then, I'm taking a wait and see approach.

Also, you say if "partial prize money" isn't paid? So paying folks 20-40% is good enough in your view and absolves him? That is insane.

Serious question...is using prize money to develop the site a crime or just bad business? I'm not an ambulance chasing lawyer so I don't know the answer.

It's a crime. Look up the federal wire fraud statute.

 

[Ghost Rider]

He might be trying to fix this but you don't

A. Delete your existence from the board and all forms of social media if you're an up and up guy. He's trying to hide... That's what these actions say. That's not good for anyone.

B. Use pool money for website upgrades in the first place. That's not your profit. That money is not yours, it's the customers.

You take out a business loan. If you put up the 200k and costs for the website exceed it, you cut your losses or find a solution. That's how you run a business.

Who is going to buy a business when you're going into it already owing hundreds of thousands to your "customers"

I don't care what the user base is, most of those folks are going to have a horrible taste in their mouth. Under this xtreme optimal conditions you might make your money back in 3 years.

Not happening.

I agree with all of this.

The fact that he actually is replying emails indicates that he probably didn't just take the money and vanish, and that he probably did just make a really bad business decision rather than scamming everyone outright, but the result is the same either way, and I still don't see anyone getting any money back. From a legal standpoint, he'd open himself up to lawsuits left and right if he arbitrarily decided to play this league 20%, that league 30%, etc.

 

[leftcoastguy7]

Makes me wonder if there's either a drug or gambling addiction mixed into this mess.

 

[Yamato]

Wonder if he is going to stiff the winners of getting their championship medals.

 

[mattlambertson]

Hobby is going to lose a lot of fantasy players from this. Anymore I don't think it's as simple as "I'll play somewhere else now". It's more to the point "Is it worth playing and devoting the time?" I'm more surprised from this one than any of the others contests. Particularly since Mike built a ~10 year reputation here. No one saw this coming. It's saddening more than anything else.

This is the first year I played for money. Joined a bunch of low-entry leagues with the logic that I only have to win one to make back all my money. 1 on Masters, 1 on Apex and 5 on Phenoms because I decided I like their formats the best. The deep format redraft league (2QBs, 2DST, 2Ks, tons of FLEXes) is so much fun and I'm dominating the one I'm in! Have semifinal playoff games in 5 of the 7 this weekend. Or at least I did. Now it doesn't matter.

I don't think I'll ever play ff for money again. Maybe that's a good thing?

 

[biju]

I only really read the first page of comments but I think the most egregious thing he did was believe a FF website would only cost $200k. Having been in the industry there is a pretty typical way of estimating costs for things like this and there is no way in hell I would think this would cover just the software. This is more like a $2MM project so to be off by an order of magnitude is just poor management.

 

[robcards]

I agree with all of this.

The fact that he actually is replying emails indicates that he probably didn't just take the money and vanish, and that he probably did just make a really bad business decision rather than scamming everyone outright, but the result is the same either way, and I still don't see anyone getting any money back. From a legal standpoint, he'd open himself up to lawsuits left and right if he arbitrarily decided to play this league 20%, that league 30%, etc.

Right, I'm sure the first thing his lawyer told him was to not pay ANYTHING back. That would be the absolute last thing he should do. I'm sure he will use the 200-300k he has left toward legal fees. I realize now that the odds of any of us seeing any money from Mike are about 0, but I do want to see him locked up for this at this point.

 

[thetman]

I agree with all of this.

The fact that he actually is replying emails indicates that he probably didn't just take the money and vanish, and that he probably did just make a really bad business decision rather than scamming everyone outright, but the result is the same either way, and I still don't see anyone getting any money back. From a legal standpoint, he'd open himself up to lawsuits left and right if he arbitrarily decided to play this league 20%, that league 30%, etc.

Right, I'm sure the first thing his lawyer told him was to not pay ANYTHING back. That would be the absolute last thing he should do. I'm sure he will use the 200-300k he has left toward legal fees. I realize now that the odds of any of us seeing any money from Mike are about 0, but I do want to see him locked up for this at this point.

locked up? That seems a little much to me. Maybe I'm naive.

 

[robcards]

locked up? That seems a little much to me. Maybe I'm naive.

A bit much? He stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from his customers. People go to jail for years for stealing much less.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I agree with all of this.

The fact that he actually is replying emails indicates that he probably didn't just take the money and vanish, and that he probably did just make a really bad business decision rather than scamming everyone outright, but the result is the same either way, and I still don't see anyone getting any money back. From a legal standpoint, he'd open himself up to lawsuits left and right if he arbitrarily decided to play this league 20%, that league 30%, etc.

Right, I'm sure the first thing his lawyer told him was to not pay ANYTHING back. That would be the absolute last thing he should do. I'm sure he will use the 200-300k he has left toward legal fees. I realize now that the odds of any of us seeing any money from Mike are about 0, but I do want to see him locked up for this at this point.

Agreed. The bizarre thing is that he has to have talked to a lawyer before he sent out the email, so why even put the "A portion should be available, estimated to be between 20 and 40%" part in not only the email, but in the first paragraph? He has to know he cannot do that.

As for him being locked up, for sure. Good intentions or not, it sounds like he did break the law, and it's costing a lot of people a lot of money. If that isn't a prescription for a prison sentence, I don't know what is.

 

[thetman]

locked up? That seems a little much to me. Maybe I'm naive.

A bit much? He stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from his customers. People go to jail for years for stealing much less.

we have no proof that he "stole" it

 

[Davewhit]

Guys, I'm a first year user of this site. I had played for 10 years prior to this one with Antsports. When that site was going under, I found out about Phenoms and emailed Mike back in July. He told me he heard a lot of complaints about Steve @Antsports and even asked me if I felt he was open to being bought out (how funny is that now after knowing what kind of financial spot he was in at that time)? Anyway, I decided to give it a try here as I liked the roster structures and the auction league options. Now it looks as if I'm right back to where I was with Antsports. In many ways, Steve was better as at least I got my prize money before he shut down. A lot of others got screwed though. It wouldn't surprise me if Mike and Steve had a little "how to take people's money and get away with it" chat months ago. Like everyone else, I feel taken after having spent so much time and effort building my teams. An option for everyone to do is to contact your bank or credit card company and dispute the entry fee charges. That's what I did just earlier and they have already "temporarily" credited back my entry fees. They said they will ask for emails and anything else I can provide them, and then they will try and contact Mike directly to verify everything. I asked them the obvious question of "what happens if he never responds"? And they said if that happens, more than likely the dispute resolution will fall in my favor and I'll get the charges I spent on entry fees back. I would imagine different banks and CC companies handle disputes differently, but mine looks kind of promising. It's worth a 5-10 minute phone call at least.

 

[robcards]

we have no proof that he "stole" it

So billing statements from thousands of customers isn't proof? I'm not really sure what you mean by this. We sent him money to hold on to for league prizes at the end of the season, he used that money for something else. That is stealing.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Guys, I'm a first year user of this site. I had played for 10 years prior to this one with Antsports. When that site was going under, I found out about Phenoms and emailed Mike back in July. He told me he heard a lot of complaints about Steve @Antsports and even asked me if I felt he was open to being bought out (how funny is that now after knowing what kind of financial spot he was in at that time)? Anyway, I decided to give it a try here as I liked the roster structures and the auction league options. Now it looks as if I'm right back to where I was with Antsports. In many ways, Steve was better as at least I got my prize money before he shut down. A lot of others got screwed though. It wouldn't surprise me if Mike and Steve had a little "how to take people's money and get away with it" chat months ago. Like everyone else, I feel taken after having spent so much time and effort building my teams. An option for everyone to do is to contact your bank or credit card company and dispute the entry fee charges. That's what I did just earlier and they have already "temporarily" credited back my entry fees. They said they will ask for emails and anything else I can provide them, and then they will try and contact Mike directly to verify everything. I asked them the obvious question of "what happens if he never responds"? And they said if that happens, more than likely the dispute resolution will fall in my favor and I'll get the charges I spent on entry fees back. I would imagine different banks and CC companies handle disputes differently, but mine looks kind of promising. It's worth a 5-10 minute phone call at least.

Interesting. I'll be making that phone call in the next day or two for sure.

 

[bkbaler]

guys - first time poster, joined on as I now have $$ tied up in Phenoms. I agree - we have little hope of getting this back. Like most ponzi-type schemes, they start off with the best intentions, the person at the center starts losing money on something and thinks it's "only a matter of time" before he catches up. Then, before you know it, he's in a hole he can never dig himself out of and becomes a full-on criminal, "good-guy" or not. I think like all ponzi-criminals (I have experience with this on the financial side of things), I can guarantee you he still has a lot of money, not enough to repay 100c on the $ but probably 50c, but if we just "let it go" we all get zero. this is how these things work. The guy at the center realizes the jig is up one day, and starts to hoard money - he knows it will get worse, he'll need $ for lawyers, etc. Freezing his assets now is key. But I'm no expert on how to do any of this.

So, anyway, I saw this site:

http://pagerankchecker.com/domain/phenomsff.com/leagues/high-stakes-leagues.php/details

His phone number is listed there, 801-712-1875. You can cross reference and see this is something he's posted on other sites. For those still interested in tracking him down, that's one data pt.

Domain Status: 1

Registry Registrant ID: 902037
Registrant Name: Michael D Zangrilli
Registrant Organization: Phenom Enterprises
Registrant Street: 457 E 5600 S unit B
Registrant City: Murray
Registrant State/Province: Utah
Registrant Postal Code: 84107
Registrant Country: US
Registry Admin ID: 897218
Admin Name: Michael D Zangrilli
Admin Organization: Phenom Enterprises
Admin Street: 1196 E 6600 S Apt. 8
Admin City: Salt Lake City
Admin State/Province: Utah
Admin Postal Code: 84121
Admin Country: US
Admin Phone: +1.8017121875
Admin Phone Ext:
Admin Fax:
Admin Fax Ext:
Admin Email: phenoms@gmail.com

 

[thetman]

Guys, I'm a first year user of this site. I had played for 10 years prior to this one with Antsports. When that site was going under, I found out about Phenoms and emailed Mike back in July. He told me he heard a lot of complaints about Steve @Antsports and even asked me if I felt he was open to being bought out (how funny is that now after knowing what kind of financial spot he was in at that time)? Anyway, I decided to give it a try here as I liked the roster structures and the auction league options. Now it looks as if I'm right back to where I was with Antsports. In many ways, Steve was better as at least I got my prize money before he shut down. A lot of others got screwed though. It wouldn't surprise me if Mike and Steve had a little "how to take people's money and get away with it" chat months ago. Like everyone else, I feel taken after having spent so much time and effort building my teams. An option for everyone to do is to contact your bank or credit card company and dispute the entry fee charges. That's what I did just earlier and they have already "temporarily" credited back my entry fees. They said they will ask for emails and anything else I can provide them, and then they will try and contact Mike directly to verify everything. I asked them the obvious question of "what happens if he never responds"? And they said if that happens, more than likely the dispute resolution will fall in my favor and I'll get the charges I spent on entry fees back. I would imagine different banks and CC companies handle disputes differently, but mine looks kind of promising. It's worth a 5-10 minute phone call at least.

Interesting. I'll be making that phone call in the next day or two for sure.

sounds like we should all be on the phone

 

[thetman]

we have no proof that he "stole" it

So billing statements from thousands of customers isn't proof? I'm not really sure what you mean by this. We sent him money to hold on to for league prizes at the end of the season, he used that money for something else. That is stealing.

is that stealing or mismanagement of funds/bad business decisions?

 

[joffer]

I had no idea phenoms had gotten that big

 

[robcards]

is that stealing or mismanagement of funds/bad business decisions?

"Bad business decisions" can also be felonies. Just because he isn't holding a gun to our heads doesn't mean it isn't theft and doesn't mean it isn't a crime.

 

[Davewhit]

I believe it's stealing. Like another poster said, "the prize money was not his to use". The prize money was an Accounts Payable and he shouldn't have used it to pay for unexpected software costs (which I'm not buying by any means). even if it is true, you don't keep paying someone when it goes over what was quoted by $400K. It just makes no sense. Again, just try and inquire with your bank to see if you can get those charges for entry fees credited. I'm in the playoffs in a couple leagues, and it's possible I'd be winning a lot more than my entry fees, but I'm just looking to cut my losses right now

 

[BobbyLayne]

we have no proof that he "stole" it

So billing statements from thousands of customers isn't proof? I'm not really sure what you mean by this. We sent him money to hold on to for league prizes at the end of the season, he used that money for something else. That is stealing.

is that stealing or mismanagement of funds/bad business decisions?

Here's a hint: when Phenoms took in entry fees the funds were booked as a short term liability. The monies were never an asset to which he had any claim except for his 10% rake.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I wonder if an footballguy staff members can respond to this question:

It appears Mike Zangrilli was or is a staff member of footballguys.com

http://apps.footballguys.com/staff.htm

According to the Phenoms web site "about" information (https://www.phenomsff.com/help/about.php )

In 2003, Footballguys.com approached me about running leagues for their website. We worked on a plan, but in the end, they decided against adding leagues to their website. I decided to continue what I had started by creating Phenoms Fantasy Football. The Greek Leagues laid the foundation, thus the Greek Letter naming system for the leagues.

I was hoping if a Footballguys staff member could provide more details about this claim.

Was/is Mike a Footballguys.com staff member?

Was there discussions with Mike back in 2003 about running legaues on Footballguys.com?

If so, what was Mike's background or qualifications for this? Did Mike have web developer/designer experience?

If Mike was/is a web developer, that makes me question even more the valididty of his claims that he hired some 3rd party web developers and their overcosts caused him to reach this point.

W666

Hi Folks,

This is accurate. We considered way back in 2003 expanding Footballguys and getting into the league management area and talked to Mike about it. We decided not to do it as we felt it just wasn't a market we wanted to get in. Partly because we felt the market was already being extremely well served by both the sites like MFL and also the super tough free competition from the big sites that were doing league management.

I don't recall exactly what kind of web / tech ability Mike had. But developing our league management software wasn't in the plans. And as I remember, Mike really didn't play much into the decision not to do the leagues. It was that the market was already being served and we felt our time / effort would be better spent on developing the content we were already doing with Footballguys. So he went forward with doing his Phenom leagues as everyone knows.

I'm super bummed to see it play out like this. Sucks so hard.

J

 

[Yamato]

Guess I'll be calling my bank tomorrow. Sad.....

 

[cstu]

I think that makes sense with his math as he is saying he lost 600k plus on the web designer and will pay back 20 to 40%

Let me insert some logic...

Let's assume the web development story was true...even if the new website was 100% fully functional after spending $600k, how was he going to pay league fees?

It's , folks.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

See my earlier post--we should all be calling the police/authorities. The sooner and the more people that do that, the sooner we get Mike locked up and possibly get some cash back.

I don't know the law like you do but posting someone's "home address" in a thread where people may have implied threatening behavior seems unwise.

That's his process of service address. It may not be his home address.

 

[freshhh]

Law student here. I can't see how this would be legal. We need someone to get the ball rolling and then everyone can join in on a claim against him, assuming he has money haha.

 

[Dizzy]

I received a different reply.

"

Xxxxx,

I have been trying for months to find buyers. This notice has sparked inquiries. I am continuing to work diligently through potential resolution strategies. Please send all legal inquiries relating to Phenom Enterprises, LLC, to legal counsel at the following email address: phenomslegal@gmail.com. Thank you.

"

There is so much money in this industry now, I would think his site, customer list, etc. would have significant value...

Interesting... the company that I work for forbids us to send any pricing and/or proprietary information to any .gmail accounts, for "legal" reasons.

Not adding to the accusations, but it does strike me as funny that a legal council has a .gmail account.

Also, we deal with a lot of LLC's... never, never seen one with a gmail account.

 

[fatness]

Posted by the guy on one of his Phenoms leagues:

Commissioner --- call if problems: 801-712-1875

http://www21.myfantasyleague.com/2014/home/59513#0

 

[comfortably numb]

If a little bit of iPublic ridicule can help just one person from making the same mistake down the road, my work here will be all worth it.

Just poor form to kick a man while he is down and just learned of being taken...but go on with your sincere genuine interest in helping others.

 

[East Coast Bias]

He logged in to Timleeg to adjust his lineup an hour ago. Love that he is still setting his lineup even though there isn't money for payouts. That's dedication.

 

[Soaring Eagle]

shame there are 6 pages of posts talking about this today right before week 15 playoffs then actual ff content

what awful timing to be announced right before the playoffs

this weekend which I have been looking forward to for so long just doesn't feel right

 

[Limp Ditka]

He logged in to Timleeg to adjust his lineup an hour ago. Love that he is still setting his lineup even though there isn't money for payouts. That's dedication.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

He logged in to Timleeg to adjust his lineup an hour ago. Love that he is still setting his lineup even though there isn't money for payouts. That's dedication.

Unreal.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Winning timleeg would be what, $300 less that he'll be indicted for?

Probably a pretty smart move.

 

[fatness]

Business Card

Mr. Michael Zangrilli
SkyBox Sports Grille Street Address: Phone: 1-801-712-1875

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OhBpcXjkbykJ:arabic.alibaba.com/product-free/free-shipping-for-new-2014-honda-trx420-rancher-4wd-hr-mud-pro-series-atv-4x4-authentic-100-warranty-50004302834.html+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

 

[JPackers]

I just can't comprehend the excuse.......put in 630k into it....ok,what was the plan if it was up and running after our money was used already?Either way it seems we wouldn't have gotten any money,if he spent it on the software how would he pay our winnings,take the basketball money to pay the football,baseball to pay the nba/nhl,and so on,til he was back in the green?All seems fishy to me.

 

[Davewhit]

Soaring Eagle, I think the timing of the announcement was well thought out by Mike. Wait until over half of the people in leagues have already been eliminated from any potential prize money, and then tell the unlucky souls still in the running. I believe he was thinking that would be good "damage control" on his end.

 

[TheWalk84]

MAYBE, and just thinking about this.. maybe this was his way to try to scare in an investor..

As has been mentioned, his lists/leagues/growth are an asset period.. And anyone who is interested in buying it, the #1 priority is making sure everyone is whole this year, and then work on ways to improve next year..

Even if we can a haircut and only 60-70% is paid out that might be enough to keep some customers...

If "Mike" really did make a mistake (whether business or otherwise) there are ways he can fix this, I am curious if this "last second deal" is made...

Reallllllllllly hope so

 

[BobbyLayne]

HIs voice mail isn't full.

Yet.

 

[17seconds]

I think that makes sense with his math as he is saying he lost 600k plus on the web designer and will pay back 20 to 40%

Let me insert some logic...

Let's assume the web development story was true...even if the new website was 100% fully functional after spending $600k, how was he going to pay league fees?

It's , folks.

Most likely he saw it going north of $200K some time ago and started looking for investors. Maybe he had a deal that looked like it was going to happen and he foolishly let the dev costs continue to mount. Then the deal fell through. Of course there are many things he could have done to stop the bleeding to keep the business solvent so he totally ####ed up.

It makes no sense to me that a guy who builds a business and does good by everyone for many years decides to run away with 1 season of deposits. Especially when FF has really exploded in the last couple of years. He stands to do much better keeping the site going. The scam theory doesn't add up to me.

The only plausible thing to me that borders on immoral is if he thought his site was going in the tank because of all the big boys outdoing him, he took a shot at having his site redone, didn't like the result, and just bailed.