Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Which of these four was the best coach?
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Pick the best coach of the four (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Chase Stuart
- Start date
This poll is reminding me that time heals all. Bill Cowher spent most of the 90's and early 00's being out coached by Mike Shanahan. I'm not sure 2004-2006 makes up for the time frame from 1994-2003.
If I'm ranking all 4 of them, I'd go:
Shanny, strictly on coaching. He gets downgraded slightly if you include front office work. Back-to-back rings don't hurt.
Dungy, you can argue he lucked out getting handed Manning, but he hasn't had a losing season in what seems like forever and he basically built Tampa from the ground up.
Cowher, great leader, but seemed to get out coached constantly in the playoffs until 2005, and even that was a weaker year for the league.
Holmgren, he never really seemed like he could get out of Ron Wolf's shadow. Seattle was in an easy division for years and never quite became a legit contender except for the aforementioned 2005 season.
If I'm ranking all 4 of them, I'd go:
Shanny, strictly on coaching. He gets downgraded slightly if you include front office work. Back-to-back rings don't hurt.
Dungy, you can argue he lucked out getting handed Manning, but he hasn't had a losing season in what seems like forever and he basically built Tampa from the ground up.
Cowher, great leader, but seemed to get out coached constantly in the playoffs until 2005, and even that was a weaker year for the league.
Holmgren, he never really seemed like he could get out of Ron Wolf's shadow. Seattle was in an easy division for years and never quite became a legit contender except for the aforementioned 2005 season.
It really is hard to argue Shanny's success in those earlier years but IMO I would take Cowher out of this group. He just seemed like the guy who could constantly get more from less. Obviously he does not have the rings that Shanny has but he never had John Elway either. He was able to make it work no matter who he had playing and for me that makes him the best of this group.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
Cowher did make the Super Bowl with a worse QB than any of the others did. I'm not bashing Neil O'Donnell, but he clearly ranks behind Elway, Favre, Manning and Hasselbeck.
I agree with MTskibum that it's a knock against Dungy, compared to this group, that he only made one SB with Peyton Manning.
I agree with MTskibum that it's a knock against Dungy, compared to this group, that he only made one SB with Peyton Manning.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
A) There's more to a team than a QB. Having a great defense and a mediocre QB has been far more successful in the recent NFL than having a great QB and a mediocre defense.B) Didn't most of these guys have a say in personnel decisions, which would mean if they had bad players it was their own fault?
FUBAR
Footballguy
A) of courseB) Sure, but the poll is "best coach", it's possible to be a great coach but poor at personnel decisions. You would think it isn't, but history has shown it is.
Chase, how are we deciding best? If we all can use are own criteria then I'm seeing no reason Not to vote for Cowher. He was adaptable and loyal to the players around him, he was able to convince the team of the team's importance over self, he came across as a positive motivator, he wasn't afraid to throw a few wrinkles in the game plan to try and catch the other team off guard and he never backed away from owning up to his decisions and he Never threw his players under the bus. His won/loss record is very strong and the fact that he made six conference championship games-winning two- in fifteen years is very impressive.
As a fan, I would take Cowher to coach my team any day of the week over any of the coaches you listed and to me it isn't even close.
As a fan, I would take Cowher to coach my team any day of the week over any of the coaches you listed and to me it isn't even close.
money.never.sleeps
Footballguy
I'm not one to give credit to Dungy for building the TB team yet always coming up short till he left. Gruden got that team over the hump in which Dungy was unable to do with his guys. I hate hearing how great Dungy was compared to what he actually did in many regards esp. with the Bucs. Last time I checked just winning games doesnt make a HC great. He won 1 SB and lost many big games. Regardless of having Manning or not he still dominated his coaching era and got it done so I give him credit.
Same could be said with Cowher. Won alot games but lost alot big games.
Holmgren to me not only built his team but won with them and then went on to take another team to SB calibur though they were ill equipped to win a SB.
A confusing poll at the least considering all of these coaches either drafted or had great key players. I'm def. perplexed on my choice but I chose Cowher for some reason.
I'd have loved to pick Shanny but last few years really hurt him so Im uncertain.
Same could be said with Cowher. Won alot games but lost alot big games.
Holmgren to me not only built his team but won with them and then went on to take another team to SB calibur though they were ill equipped to win a SB.
A confusing poll at the least considering all of these coaches either drafted or had great key players. I'm def. perplexed on my choice but I chose Cowher for some reason.
I'd have loved to pick Shanny but last few years really hurt him so Im uncertain.
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it's not Dungy's fault that Manning choked in the playoffs time after time
everyone likes to blame the defense, but look at Manning's regular-season performance vs. his postseason performance.
Manning regular season (postseason)
Comp% - 64.4% (61.7%)
YPG - 259 (280)
YPA - 7.7 (7.5)
TD% - 5.6% (3.9%)
INT% - 2.8% (3.1%)
Passer Rating 94.7 (85.0)
multi-TD postseason games = 4
multi-INT postseason games = 5
passer rating > 100 = 3 games
passer rating < 70 = 5
In his 15 postseason games, he's thrown 0 or 1 TD in 11 of those games. If you look at his postseason performance as a whole, he's had a total of 3 games (out of 15) where he was actually "Peyton Manning", and 2 of them came against Denver. In those 2 games, he threw 9 of his 22 TDs.
So in 13 postseason games NOT against Denver, he's thrown 13 TDs and 16 interceptions, and his completion %age in those 2 games was over 80% both times. Take those 2 games (out of 15) away, and he begins to look very much like a pretty average, at best, QB.
In fact, looking at the season they won the Super Bowl, Manning was NOT responsible. He sure as hell didn't play well that postseason.
1 TD, 3 picks vs. KC (Indy wins wildcard 23-8)
15 of 30, 170 yards, 0 TDs, 2 picks vs. Baltimore (Indy wins divisional 15-6)
in the AFC Championship that season, Manning looked fairly average, throwing a pick6 and completing < 60% of his passes.
Against Chicago, he had a very average game, 247 yards, 1/1 TD/INT, 82 passer rating, but again, the defense held the Bears to 1 offensive TD and scored a TD of their own on a pick6. Dominic Rhodes and Joseph Addai provided the offense, accoutning for 190 yards rushing and 74 yards receiving (264 of Indy's 430 yards)
Do the math here. In 3 of the 4 games that Indy won that season, the much-maligned defense carried the Colts,
Everyone likes to blame Indy's coaching, their defense, their running game, but no one seems to acknowledge a simple fact.
Peyton Manning is a postseason choke artist.
[/end thread hijack]
as for the OP question, I go Shannie. Cowher got outcoached all the damn time, quit on his team once they won the Super Bowl, made horribly idiotic decisions regarding his QBs, blindly sticking with Kordell Stewart far far too long, and steadfastly refusing to draft a QB of merit. I know, Big Ben, right? Well, the Rooney's over-rode Cowher on that one. Cowher did NOT want Roethlisberger, and he made no bones about it. The Rooneys told him to ####, and they drafted Ben anyway. It's no surprise that Ben is now showing his ability with Cowher out of the picture (and out of Ben's ###)
Holmgren benefitted by the Brett Favre dominance from the 90s. When Holmgren left GB and they got past the "Ray Rhodes experiement", Mike Sherman righted the ship. Despite coaching in the consistently worst division in the NFL while he was in Seattle, his winning % there is barely over .500 (he's like 84-76 or something)
Dungy's defense in Tampa was great, but he couldn't get offense there to save his life. His Indy teams were soft and designed to win in a comfortable, Dome environment. He steadfastly refused to anchor his line, instead getting a bunch of little, quick guys, designed to play the pass and ONLY the pass. The idea was that Manning could get them a lead, and then the defense would only have to play the pass, running the Tampa2 and rushing the QB with quick ends. Problem is that Manning wasn't very good in the postseason and his teams were always soft, so they buckled.
That being said, Shanny seemed to lose his touch at player evaluation near the end, and he made some pretty questionable decisions. I'd still go with Shanny, overall however.
everyone likes to blame the defense, but look at Manning's regular-season performance vs. his postseason performance.
Manning regular season (postseason)
Comp% - 64.4% (61.7%)
YPG - 259 (280)
YPA - 7.7 (7.5)
TD% - 5.6% (3.9%)
INT% - 2.8% (3.1%)
Passer Rating 94.7 (85.0)
multi-TD postseason games = 4
multi-INT postseason games = 5
passer rating > 100 = 3 games
passer rating < 70 = 5
In his 15 postseason games, he's thrown 0 or 1 TD in 11 of those games. If you look at his postseason performance as a whole, he's had a total of 3 games (out of 15) where he was actually "Peyton Manning", and 2 of them came against Denver. In those 2 games, he threw 9 of his 22 TDs.
So in 13 postseason games NOT against Denver, he's thrown 13 TDs and 16 interceptions, and his completion %age in those 2 games was over 80% both times. Take those 2 games (out of 15) away, and he begins to look very much like a pretty average, at best, QB.
In fact, looking at the season they won the Super Bowl, Manning was NOT responsible. He sure as hell didn't play well that postseason.
1 TD, 3 picks vs. KC (Indy wins wildcard 23-8)
15 of 30, 170 yards, 0 TDs, 2 picks vs. Baltimore (Indy wins divisional 15-6)
in the AFC Championship that season, Manning looked fairly average, throwing a pick6 and completing < 60% of his passes.
Against Chicago, he had a very average game, 247 yards, 1/1 TD/INT, 82 passer rating, but again, the defense held the Bears to 1 offensive TD and scored a TD of their own on a pick6. Dominic Rhodes and Joseph Addai provided the offense, accoutning for 190 yards rushing and 74 yards receiving (264 of Indy's 430 yards)
Do the math here. In 3 of the 4 games that Indy won that season, the much-maligned defense carried the Colts,
Everyone likes to blame Indy's coaching, their defense, their running game, but no one seems to acknowledge a simple fact.
Peyton Manning is a postseason choke artist.
[/end thread hijack]
as for the OP question, I go Shannie. Cowher got outcoached all the damn time, quit on his team once they won the Super Bowl, made horribly idiotic decisions regarding his QBs, blindly sticking with Kordell Stewart far far too long, and steadfastly refusing to draft a QB of merit. I know, Big Ben, right? Well, the Rooney's over-rode Cowher on that one. Cowher did NOT want Roethlisberger, and he made no bones about it. The Rooneys told him to ####, and they drafted Ben anyway. It's no surprise that Ben is now showing his ability with Cowher out of the picture (and out of Ben's ###)
Holmgren benefitted by the Brett Favre dominance from the 90s. When Holmgren left GB and they got past the "Ray Rhodes experiement", Mike Sherman righted the ship. Despite coaching in the consistently worst division in the NFL while he was in Seattle, his winning % there is barely over .500 (he's like 84-76 or something)
Dungy's defense in Tampa was great, but he couldn't get offense there to save his life. His Indy teams were soft and designed to win in a comfortable, Dome environment. He steadfastly refused to anchor his line, instead getting a bunch of little, quick guys, designed to play the pass and ONLY the pass. The idea was that Manning could get them a lead, and then the defense would only have to play the pass, running the Tampa2 and rushing the QB with quick ends. Problem is that Manning wasn't very good in the postseason and his teams were always soft, so they buckled.
That being said, Shanny seemed to lose his touch at player evaluation near the end, and he made some pretty questionable decisions. I'd still go with Shanny, overall however.
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pollardsvision
Footballguy
I think Cowher, Shanny, and Holmgren are in a slight class ahead of Dungy. Picking from the 1st 3 is very tough. Like Dungy, but I like the other 3 better.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Dungy and its not even close. He is the only one that coached a team that was abysmal when he got there...no one wanted the Tampa Bay Bucs HC job...Parcells turned it down, lots of other coaches. I cannot believe the reacism in this thread about how he only got 1 Super Bowl...he competed against the Pats during their dynasty and made for a great and epic battle much like the Dallas/SF feud in the early to mid 90s.
I have been humble about not going to the race card but I can't come up with any other reasons why folks dislike Dungy. 1st black HC to win a championship, only one of these 4 HC that actually took a sorry ### team and organization and put them on his back and turned them into champions. How much money did he single handedly make for the Glazers who bought the team for $192 million and the last time I checked they were worth what...$750 million or thereabouts?
It sickens me when he doesn't get the credit he deserves. Don SHula is a HoF coach and won more games than anyone...was he a terrible coach since he couldn't get to the playoffs with Dan Marino at QB from 1986-1989??? Miami was almost awful during those years and managed 8-8 seasons only because of Marino being able to throw up enough points to win some games.
I apologize if anyone is offended by my angle but I think Dungy stands out, and I can't wait to see him in the HoF and no matter what this board does to try and throw his name in the mud I know that he will be a 1st ballot HoF coach, no questions about it. Did anyone else have their son commit suicide and then turnaround and win a SB the next year? Didn't think so, but keep piling on with this ridiculous Manning argument. Watch the Colts suffer this year like they did before Dungy ever got there and then maybe that will put an end to the silliness. You won't find one broadcaster on TV ever say that DUngy is not in the class if not leading the way with these HC.
I have been humble about not going to the race card but I can't come up with any other reasons why folks dislike Dungy. 1st black HC to win a championship, only one of these 4 HC that actually took a sorry ### team and organization and put them on his back and turned them into champions. How much money did he single handedly make for the Glazers who bought the team for $192 million and the last time I checked they were worth what...$750 million or thereabouts?
It sickens me when he doesn't get the credit he deserves. Don SHula is a HoF coach and won more games than anyone...was he a terrible coach since he couldn't get to the playoffs with Dan Marino at QB from 1986-1989??? Miami was almost awful during those years and managed 8-8 seasons only because of Marino being able to throw up enough points to win some games.
I apologize if anyone is offended by my angle but I think Dungy stands out, and I can't wait to see him in the HoF and no matter what this board does to try and throw his name in the mud I know that he will be a 1st ballot HoF coach, no questions about it. Did anyone else have their son commit suicide and then turnaround and win a SB the next year? Didn't think so, but keep piling on with this ridiculous Manning argument. Watch the Colts suffer this year like they did before Dungy ever got there and then maybe that will put an end to the silliness. You won't find one broadcaster on TV ever say that DUngy is not in the class if not leading the way with these HC.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
And further more...
Shanny-John Elway HoF QB...won 2 SB with him, hardly won a playoff game after he left.
Cowher-Big Ben possible future HoF QB? Won his SB with him.
Holmgren-Brett Favre HoF QB
So this whole Manning debate for Dungy is total nonsense. I don't see where anyo of the other coaches really took a terrible team and turned them around...even the COlts were not an every year playoff contender when Dungy took over...Jim Mora sure had his problems there.
Shanny-John Elway HoF QB...won 2 SB with him, hardly won a playoff game after he left.
Cowher-Big Ben possible future HoF QB? Won his SB with him.
Holmgren-Brett Favre HoF QB
So this whole Manning debate for Dungy is total nonsense. I don't see where anyo of the other coaches really took a terrible team and turned them around...even the COlts were not an every year playoff contender when Dungy took over...Jim Mora sure had his problems there.
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
The what?
identikit
Footballguy
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
It's tough to argue against any of these guys, but my vote for Dungy was based on this:
When you are evaluating the man, it's not even close...Dungy from my POV is a guy people follow as an inspirational leader inside and outside of football on a grand scale. This is not to say the pther 3 coaches are bad men, or not pworthy of admiration. It's just that Dungy seems to have reached another level of reverence. And I have to think that on the football field, that engenders a rare type of devotion and dedication from your team.
When you are evaluating the man, it's not even close...Dungy from my POV is a guy people follow as an inspirational leader inside and outside of football on a grand scale. This is not to say the pther 3 coaches are bad men, or not pworthy of admiration. It's just that Dungy seems to have reached another level of reverence. And I have to think that on the football field, that engenders a rare type of devotion and dedication from your team.
Postradamus
Footballguy
The answer is Dungy.
Mostly for reasons stated by mop, but I don't think anyone is doing anything racist in here.
Mostly for reasons stated by mop, but I don't think anyone is doing anything racist in here.
texasbirdfan
Footballguy
Shanny- pretty much hate Skelator- but respected his abilities, player motivations, trickery and mastery of the cut back block
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Well they're all great coaches but Cowher winning is a bit of a shocker.
I've got it:
Dungy > Holmgren >>> Shanahan >> Cowher
The hardest part was ranking Dungy versus Holmgren (no offense to cowher fans intended here).
I've got it:
Dungy > Holmgren >>> Shanahan >> Cowher
The hardest part was ranking Dungy versus Holmgren (no offense to cowher fans intended here).
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
I'd be interested to see each of these coaches regular season and playoff records with this criteria:
Shanahan's minus Elway
Holmgren's minus Favre
Dungy's minus Manning
Cowher's minus Roethlisberger
For that matter...
Belichick minus Brady
Shanahan's minus Elway
Holmgren's minus Favre
Dungy's minus Manning
Cowher's minus Roethlisberger
For that matter...
Belichick minus Brady
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Tau837
Footballguy
I'd rank them in this order: Cowher, Holmgren, Dungy, Shanahan.
Cowher:
Seasons: 15
Regular season record: 149-90-1 (.623)
Postseason record: 12-9 (.571)
Games over .500: 59
Super Bowl Wins: 1
Overall Championships: 1
Conference Championships: 2
Division Championships: 9
AP Coach of the Year awards: 1
The Steelers only made the playoffs 1 time in the 7 seasons prior to Cowher taking over, and their record was 51-60 over that period. Their offense was never top 10 in yards gained over that span, and their defense was top 10 in yards allowed twice.
In contrast, they made the playoffs in Cowher's first 6 seasons (something accomplished by only one other coach, Paul Brown) and in 10 of his 15 seasons overall. Somewhat surprisingly, the Steelers offense was in the top 10 in yards gained 7 times in his 15 seasons, and their defense was in the top 10 in yards allowed 12 times (and never lower than 13th). It may not be equivalent to what Dungy accomplished in Tampa, but there was clearly a turnaround there.
And as others have pointed out, he did not have a strong QB for most of his career, and the other coaches in this group each benefitted from HOF QBs. At this point, there is a great chance Roethlisberger will be a HOFer, but Cowher only had him for 3 of those 15 seasons. Sure, it's a team game and all that, but we all know that QB is the most important position.
Cowher is the only one in this group who won an AP Coach of the Year award.
Holmgren:
Seasons: 17
Regular season record: 161-111 (.592)
Postseason record: 13-11 (.542)
Games over .500: 50
Super Bowl Wins: 1
Overall Championships: 1
Conference Championships: 3
Division Championships: 8
AP Coach of the Year awards: 0
Holmgren is the only one in this group to get two franchises to the Super Bowl. When he took over in Green Bay, Green Bay had only made the playoffs 2 times in the previous 24 seasons and had losing records in 5 of the previous 6 seasons; Holmgren took them to the playoffs in 6 of his 7 seasons there, and they had a winning record in every one of his 7 seasons. Of course, he had Favre and Ron Wolf on his side, so that mitigates some of his success. When he took over in Seattle, Seattle had just finished its 8th straight season without a winning record and 10th straight season out of the playoffs; Holmgren got them to winning records in 7 of his 10 seasons there and to the playoffs in 6 of those 10 seasons. The mitigation here is presumably that they played in a weak division most his time there. Still, it's a pretty impressive resume.
Dungy:
Seasons: 13
Regular season record: 139-69 (.668)
Postseason record: 9-10 (.474)
Games over .500: 70
Super Bowl Wins: 1
Overall Championships: 1
Conference Championships: 1
Division Championships: 6
AP Coach of the Year awards: 0
Great man and great coach. Surprised to see he never won the AP COY award. Unfortunately for him, his postseason record takes away quite a bit from his overall legacy. And it's not just the 9-10 record, it's the numerous losses with a team viewed as a strong contender, and also the fact that he couldn't get Tampa over the hump and Gruden did immediately after Dungy left.
I also think Manning is a factor here. Dungy's winning percentage in Tampa was .563. His winning percentage in Indy was .759. There is a case to be made that Dungy's impressive career record was largely a result of having Manning in Indy. One could make an argument that Shanahan and Holmgren contributed to their QBs' outstanding careers... I don't have a similar sense that Dungy shaped Manning significantly.
One could also argue that Polian was a significant factor in his Indy success.
The other guys in this group each coached 2-3 years longer, and all of them seem likely to add to that, whereas Dungy does not. That could end up being a factor if those guys all end up having coached several more years than Dungy, though it will obviously depend on how successful they are in their future head coaching jobs.
Shanahan:
Seasons: 16
Regular season record: 146-98 (.598)
Postseason record: 8-5 (.615)
Games over .500: 48
Super Bowl Wins: 2
Overall Championships: 2
Conference Championships: 2
Division Championships: 3
AP Coach of the Year awards: 0
Ironically, Shanahan won the most Super Bowls of this group, but I think he is the worst coach of them all. The back to back Super Bowls were great, but the general disappointing performances after Elway and Davis takes a bit away from that accomplishment IMO. 3 division titles in 16 seasons is pretty pathetic, especially considering they haven't been in a particularly strong division.
Edited to move Holmgren ahead of Dungy.
Cowher:
Seasons: 15
Regular season record: 149-90-1 (.623)
Postseason record: 12-9 (.571)
Games over .500: 59
Super Bowl Wins: 1
Overall Championships: 1
Conference Championships: 2
Division Championships: 9
AP Coach of the Year awards: 1
The Steelers only made the playoffs 1 time in the 7 seasons prior to Cowher taking over, and their record was 51-60 over that period. Their offense was never top 10 in yards gained over that span, and their defense was top 10 in yards allowed twice.
In contrast, they made the playoffs in Cowher's first 6 seasons (something accomplished by only one other coach, Paul Brown) and in 10 of his 15 seasons overall. Somewhat surprisingly, the Steelers offense was in the top 10 in yards gained 7 times in his 15 seasons, and their defense was in the top 10 in yards allowed 12 times (and never lower than 13th). It may not be equivalent to what Dungy accomplished in Tampa, but there was clearly a turnaround there.
And as others have pointed out, he did not have a strong QB for most of his career, and the other coaches in this group each benefitted from HOF QBs. At this point, there is a great chance Roethlisberger will be a HOFer, but Cowher only had him for 3 of those 15 seasons. Sure, it's a team game and all that, but we all know that QB is the most important position.
Cowher is the only one in this group who won an AP Coach of the Year award.
Holmgren:
Seasons: 17
Regular season record: 161-111 (.592)
Postseason record: 13-11 (.542)
Games over .500: 50
Super Bowl Wins: 1
Overall Championships: 1
Conference Championships: 3
Division Championships: 8
AP Coach of the Year awards: 0
Holmgren is the only one in this group to get two franchises to the Super Bowl. When he took over in Green Bay, Green Bay had only made the playoffs 2 times in the previous 24 seasons and had losing records in 5 of the previous 6 seasons; Holmgren took them to the playoffs in 6 of his 7 seasons there, and they had a winning record in every one of his 7 seasons. Of course, he had Favre and Ron Wolf on his side, so that mitigates some of his success. When he took over in Seattle, Seattle had just finished its 8th straight season without a winning record and 10th straight season out of the playoffs; Holmgren got them to winning records in 7 of his 10 seasons there and to the playoffs in 6 of those 10 seasons. The mitigation here is presumably that they played in a weak division most his time there. Still, it's a pretty impressive resume.
Dungy:
Seasons: 13
Regular season record: 139-69 (.668)
Postseason record: 9-10 (.474)
Games over .500: 70
Super Bowl Wins: 1
Overall Championships: 1
Conference Championships: 1
Division Championships: 6
AP Coach of the Year awards: 0
Great man and great coach. Surprised to see he never won the AP COY award. Unfortunately for him, his postseason record takes away quite a bit from his overall legacy. And it's not just the 9-10 record, it's the numerous losses with a team viewed as a strong contender, and also the fact that he couldn't get Tampa over the hump and Gruden did immediately after Dungy left.
I also think Manning is a factor here. Dungy's winning percentage in Tampa was .563. His winning percentage in Indy was .759. There is a case to be made that Dungy's impressive career record was largely a result of having Manning in Indy. One could make an argument that Shanahan and Holmgren contributed to their QBs' outstanding careers... I don't have a similar sense that Dungy shaped Manning significantly.
One could also argue that Polian was a significant factor in his Indy success.
The other guys in this group each coached 2-3 years longer, and all of them seem likely to add to that, whereas Dungy does not. That could end up being a factor if those guys all end up having coached several more years than Dungy, though it will obviously depend on how successful they are in their future head coaching jobs.
Shanahan:
Seasons: 16
Regular season record: 146-98 (.598)
Postseason record: 8-5 (.615)
Games over .500: 48
Super Bowl Wins: 2
Overall Championships: 2
Conference Championships: 2
Division Championships: 3
AP Coach of the Year awards: 0
Ironically, Shanahan won the most Super Bowls of this group, but I think he is the worst coach of them all. The back to back Super Bowls were great, but the general disappointing performances after Elway and Davis takes a bit away from that accomplishment IMO. 3 division titles in 16 seasons is pretty pathetic, especially considering they haven't been in a particularly strong division.
Edited to move Holmgren ahead of Dungy.
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Yowzer! Three division titles in 16 years? I am often surprised when I take a good look under the hood and this is just such a time.
I have always regarded Shanny as a good and Almost great coach but after his teams dismal performances the last few years, and after just noticing the lack of division titles, I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that Shanny may have been the ultimate beneficiary of right place right time( and this includes Dungy) of any of the coaches in this poll as well as some of those unlisted such as Coughlin, Bellichick and Reid. 3 of 16 is just bad.
I have always regarded Shanny as a good and Almost great coach but after his teams dismal performances the last few years, and after just noticing the lack of division titles, I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that Shanny may have been the ultimate beneficiary of right place right time( and this includes Dungy) of any of the coaches in this poll as well as some of those unlisted such as Coughlin, Bellichick and Reid. 3 of 16 is just bad.
Tau837
Footballguy
I just want to say that I really dislike blanket statements about racism in discussions like this. Your stance that it's Dungy and it's not close is way off base IMO, and throwing out the racism card like this implies that if anyone disagrees with you, it is because they are racists. That's BS.As for your claim that none of these other coaches had to turn around poor franchises, you might want to check into how well Green Bay and Pittsburgh were doing in the years before Holmgren/Cowher. The turnarounds they engineered may not have been as impressive as Dungy's in Tampa, but they shouldn't be dismissed.
On the bolded item, first off they lost a lot more than just Dungy. But regardless, I expect they will still be a playoff team this year. Are you saying you think they will miss the playoffs?
identikit
Footballguy
damned
I disagree with this very much. If anything its been one of the strongest.The Raiders were arguably the most talented team in the NFL from 2000-2002, but had various spells of bad luck come playoff time such as Goose powerslaming Gannon, the tuck game and having to face Gruden in the SB. After that, the Chiefs had a year(2003) where they were the best team in the NFL(during the season) and then the Chargers became great and have(IMO) been the most talented team in the NFL for the past 3 years.
Also, if you taking away from Shanny for not winning a championship without Elway and Davis you have to give him credit for keeping them in the hunt for the division constantly over the years. There was almost no rebuilding period when they lost HOF talent like Elway, Davis, Zimmerman and Sharpe.
I don't think Shanny is getting enough credit for the back-to-back titles:
Lombardi, Shula, Noll, Johnson and Belichick are the only other guys who have done it, and only Johnson and Belichick did it in the last 25 years.
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Tau837
Footballguy
Shanny was Denver's coach for 14 seasons. During that time, there were 35 AFC wild card playoff teams (3 per year in his first 7 seasons, when there were 3 divisions, and 2 per year in his last 7 seasons, when there were 4 divisions). By my count, only 6 of those 35 wild card playoff teams came from the Broncos' division. That doesn't stand out as a tough division to me.Compare Shanahan's division titles to the others in this group. Dungy, Cowher, and Holmgren all have 2-3 times as many. And Shanahan got his teams into the playoffs less than 50% of the time, far below the others.
And no one has mentioned Shanny's brief head coaching stint with the Raiders. He was 8-12 overall, and Art Shell followed him with a record of 28-16 over the next 2+ seasons. In fact, Shell's overall record following Shanny there was 63-45. Tom Flores, who preceded Shanny with the Raiders, had an overall mark of 83-53. I realize 20 games isn't a big deal compared to 14 years in Denver, but Shanahan certainly failed to impress there.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
FWIW -- and it's certainly not worth all that much -- I think they're resume accomplishments (Super Bowl wins/appearances, wins, winning percentage, best handful of seasons) are all essentially even. That's why I started this poll. I think it's pretty tough to separate them out without a good bit of subjective thoughts (talent of their team's rosters, coaching philosophy, etc.).
I do think it's intellectually lazy to say "Holmgren Favre, Shanahan Elway, Dungy Manning, Cowher wins." If you want to say Cowher had the least talented rosters (and since I view these coaches as having had the same success, that would by definition mean he did more with less than anyone) of any of these four coaches, that's fine. But who had the least talented QB is just a small part of that question.
No one has brought up the quality of each HC's assistant coaches. That cuts both ways, of course, too. But it's probably worth discussing.
I do think it's intellectually lazy to say "Holmgren Favre, Shanahan Elway, Dungy Manning, Cowher wins." If you want to say Cowher had the least talented rosters (and since I view these coaches as having had the same success, that would by definition mean he did more with less than anyone) of any of these four coaches, that's fine. But who had the least talented QB is just a small part of that question.
No one has brought up the quality of each HC's assistant coaches. That cuts both ways, of course, too. But it's probably worth discussing.
Tau837
Footballguy
Just Win Baby said:
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
Three of the biggest games on Cowher's watch:SB XXX 1/28/96 Neil O'Donnell 1 TD, 3 INT. QB Rating 51.3 (Steelers lose 27-17)
AFC Champ 1/11/98 Kordell Stewart 1 TD, 3 INT. QB Rating 41.6 (Steelers lose 24-21)
AFC Champ 1/27/02 Kordell Stewart 0 TD, 3 INT. QB Rating 45.2 (Steelers lose 24-17)
I think it's fair to say that average QB play in any of these three games would have resulted in Steelers victories.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
It's funny how quickly people forget that Mike Shanahan got to the AFC title game three plus years ago with Jake freaking Plummer as his QB. But, oh wait, he cannot win without Elway, right? 
Norseman
Footballguy
I believe Dungy has a great coaching tree also.
T Bell
Footballguy
Holmgren and Cowher are the class of that group. I'd give Holmgren the slight edge because he did what he did in two different locations, but both guys got multiple QB's to Super Bowls, including a non-great QB each. But they're 1A and 1B on this list.
Next I'd say that Dungy ranks third. He's a lot like Shanny in that it took a great QB for him to win a Super Bowl, but Dungy also built that Tampa team that won the Super Bowl over the Raiders, something for which Shanny has no parallel.
Shanny was a good coach, however but for Elway we're not discussing him here at all.
Next I'd say that Dungy ranks third. He's a lot like Shanny in that it took a great QB for him to win a Super Bowl, but Dungy also built that Tampa team that won the Super Bowl over the Raiders, something for which Shanny has no parallel.
Shanny was a good coach, however but for Elway we're not discussing him here at all.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Okay.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
So if Herm Edwards was added to the poll and was in last place would that be racism as well?I think a solid case can be made for any of the four as they all have pretty impressive resumes and credentials.I haven't heard many people say they dislike Dungy (and none in this thread) - as he's generally well liked and respected.Throwing out claims like this seems unwarrented and over-reactionary.Ministry of Pain said:
T Bell
Footballguy
I think we all celebrate his lone playoff win in the post-Elway years as a tremendous accomplishment.It's funny how quickly people forget that Mike Shanahan got to the AFC title game three plus years ago with Jake freaking Plummer as his QB. But, oh wait, he cannot win without Elway, right?
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I voted for Dungy, but most NFL franchises would be fortunate to have any of these guys at the helm.
Tau837
Footballguy
Um, but they didn't win that game, did they? So I'm not sure how that shows he can win big postseason games without Elway...Shanahan reached the playoffs much less frequently than the others in this group. The others in this group have 2-3 times as many division titles. Shanahan's winning percentage is only better than Holmgren from this group, and that just barely.Sorry, he's last in this group.It's funny how quickly people forget that Mike Shanahan got to the AFC title game three plus years ago with Jake freaking Plummer as his QB. But, oh wait, he cannot win without Elway, right?
Tau837
Footballguy
By my count (from PFR), here are these coaches' records without their star QBs (including games those QBs missed):
Cowher without Roethsliberger: 120-77 (0.609) in regular season and 7-8 in postseason
Dungy without Manning: 54-42 (0.563) in regular season and 2-4 in postseason
Holmgren without Favre: 86-75 (0.534) in regular season and 4-6 in postseason
Shanahan without Elway: 102-82 (0.554) in regular season and 1-4 in postseason
Again, IMO Shanahan is the weakest of the group. I suppose it is debatable that he did better than Holmgren, but Holmgren got to more postseasons and performed better in them.
Cowher without Roethsliberger: 120-77 (0.609) in regular season and 7-8 in postseason
Dungy without Manning: 54-42 (0.563) in regular season and 2-4 in postseason
Holmgren without Favre: 86-75 (0.534) in regular season and 4-6 in postseason
Shanahan without Elway: 102-82 (0.554) in regular season and 1-4 in postseason
Again, IMO Shanahan is the weakest of the group. I suppose it is debatable that he did better than Holmgren, but Holmgren got to more postseasons and performed better in them.
Yellow Line is Unoffcial
Footballguy
Dungy also turned around a Horrid Tampa Bay Team.By your logic I guess Shuls was pretty bad as well, never wilnning a Super Bowl with Marino.MTskibum said:
It is not clear to me whether having really talented assistant coaches means teh HC is better or worse for having accomplished the same things.
Good ACs means an eye for spotting and developing talent, BUT also means the victories could be the result of their prowess rather than your own.
For example: Holmgren. I am a fan. Andy Reid, Steve Mariucci, **** Jauron, Ray Rhodes, Jon Gruden, and Marty Mornhinweg were all obviously very talented coaches.
"As head coach of the Packers, Holmgren posted a 75–37–0 (67.0%) regular-season record, a 9–5 (64.3%) postseason mark, and two Super Bowl appearances, including a 35-21 victory over the New England Patriots in Super Bowl XXXI. By winning at least one game in five consecutive postseasons (1993–1997) Holmgren joined John Madden (1973–1977) as the only coaches in league history to accomplish the feat. Holmgren's Packers posted an NFL-best 48–16 (75.0%) record, finished first in the NFC Central Division three times, second once, and set a 7–3 mark in the playoffs between 1995 and 1998. By taking the Packers to six consecutive postseasons (1993–1998), Holmgren set a franchise record with a team that had had just two winning seasons in the 19 years before he was hired."
Very impressive to me (e.g., winning a least 1 postseason game in 5 consecutive seasons), but was it Holmgren or his ACs?
Good ACs means an eye for spotting and developing talent, BUT also means the victories could be the result of their prowess rather than your own.
For example: Holmgren. I am a fan. Andy Reid, Steve Mariucci, **** Jauron, Ray Rhodes, Jon Gruden, and Marty Mornhinweg were all obviously very talented coaches.
"As head coach of the Packers, Holmgren posted a 75–37–0 (67.0%) regular-season record, a 9–5 (64.3%) postseason mark, and two Super Bowl appearances, including a 35-21 victory over the New England Patriots in Super Bowl XXXI. By winning at least one game in five consecutive postseasons (1993–1997) Holmgren joined John Madden (1973–1977) as the only coaches in league history to accomplish the feat. Holmgren's Packers posted an NFL-best 48–16 (75.0%) record, finished first in the NFC Central Division three times, second once, and set a 7–3 mark in the playoffs between 1995 and 1998. By taking the Packers to six consecutive postseasons (1993–1998), Holmgren set a franchise record with a team that had had just two winning seasons in the 19 years before he was hired."
Very impressive to me (e.g., winning a least 1 postseason game in 5 consecutive seasons), but was it Holmgren or his ACs?
T Bell
Footballguy
Why should the quality of a head coach's assistants be a mark against that head coach's success? Moreover, who's to say that the subsequent success of those assistants would not have occurred, at least to the extent it did, but for working under that head coach?
This seems hopelessly speculative trying to break down what assistant was responsible for what level of success by a team IMHO. To me, for the purposes of this discussion, what happened on the head coach's watch goes on the head coach's record, for better or worse.
trader jake
Footballguy
I voted for him.Choke said:
He's vastly underrated when coaching is discussed (as a GM he isn't great but few are great at both).I thought about which individual of the four would give a team the best chance to win a Super Bowl if they were the head coaching hire. Holmgren had everything that teams look for and did so in different organizations, with different players, and in different decades.
