The Commish
Footballguy
Yeah, I draw the line at happily married couples who aren't quite ready to have kids not being allowed to have sex, but that's just me. There's always one in the crowd
Let me revise my statement:
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Policy Options Conservatives are ready to support in a post Roe world (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jackstraw
- Start date
Let me revise my statement:
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Mookie
Footballguy
Of course I read the article, and please drop the accusatory tone. The question posed is how far will republicans go once this SCOTUS decision comes out? Since there are 50 states, there is a wide range of possible outcomes.
The article was used as an example that some forms of contraception (morning after pills) are already under threat because in the eyes of many republicans, life begins at conception. “I believe that life begins at conception,” Reeves explained. Did I get that wrong?
As for rape exceptions, you are correct that the Mississippi Governor views a rape exception is necessary. Good for him, but I was not citing his statements as evidence of anything rape-related. Same goes for masturbation. Right now, rape exceptions are not a sure thing in all states. I wasn't making that point though so I'm not sure you why you attacked me on it.
My post was intended to be thought provoking. If we are going to punish the rape victim with 9 months of pregnancy and childbirth, shouldn't we consider the rapist's role and require castration - what would our current SCOTUS do with this question if a Republican legislature passed a mandatory castration law? And if we're going to keep pushing the needle back as far as defining when "life" begins, shouldn't we consider other laws to make sure that "lives" aren't lost through masturbation? It's a ridiculous example, but regulating men in this manner is far less invasive and burdensome than carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term. Fact is, I have no clue how far republicans in deeply red states will go, but the target will surely not be men.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Such a statute would probably be struck down on 8th amendment grounds, and I would support such a ruling.
Rapists should go to prison. Violent crime is why we have prisons in the first place. We already know how to "punish" rapists, and I'm pretty comfortable with the status quo on that one.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Yeah, I draw the line at happily married couples who aren't quite ready to have kids not being allowed to have sex, but that's just me. There's always one in the crowd
Let me revise my statement:
ok now, how many abortions are coming from married coupled ?
5% ? 10% ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
..
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
agreed but we're not punishing the rape victim - which BTW is what, 1% of all abortions ? rape is awful, but adding to that the knowledge they had a baby killed ? that's not going to ever help, knowing an innocent life was killed - physical/mental trauma is very real for women who've had their babies killed
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
This is an interesting statistic, would be interested to see this breakdown if available.
Should we be restricting their right to choose? Or is it ok for them to decide what's best for their family because they're married?
This whole idea of taking away people's right's to decide (or deciding for them) is so odd, for lack of a better term.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
- In 2019, unmarried women accounted for 86% of all abortions (CDC).
- Women in their 20s accounted for the majority of abortions in 2019 and had the highest abortion rates (CDC).
- Adolescents under 15 years obtained 0.2% of all 2019 abortions; women aged 15–19 years accounted for 8.5% (CDC).
- Among white women, 10% of 2019 pregnancies (excluding spontaneous miscarriages) ended in abortion. Among black women, 28% ended in abortion (CDC).
Look at that last one .... we see discussions here all the time on disproportionate affects on black community ... this is exactly what Sanger / Planned parenthood wanted, killing off black population and it is still working decades later
PercentageReason
<0.5%Victim of rape
3%Fetal health problems
4%Physical health problems
4%Would interfere with education or career
7%Not mature enough to raise a child
8%Don't want to be a single mother
19%Done having children
23%Can't afford a baby
25%Not ready for a child
6%Other
The Commish
Footballguy
It really doesn't matter to the conversation that was happening. He's now in that mode where he's just throwing out random stuff. This rate should mean exactly NOTHING to a guy who is after every single abortion. There's no wiggle room in that. It's almost like it's another dishonest talking point. To answer your question, I believe it's around 5%.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I'll wait for apology - see that link I posted above ? not throwing, not random, links to real statistics ... you "believe" its around 5% ? isn't that throwing out ?
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Other than death of a spouse and edge cases of contraception not working, how would you be a single mother not ny choice?
The Commish
Footballguy
I was talking about the nonsense talking points and shift of discussion and circumstance that is quintessential Stealthycat when I said "random stuff" not the stat itself. The stat is completely meaningless to a person like yourself claiming your position is what you've stated. But I know that it's just under 5% (for the last couple years anyway).
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Nugget
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Rape/Incest are edge cases.
Women initiate like 85% of divorces, so that tells me they know exactly what they are doing.
Anything else instead?
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Tells me a lot when you post this and BR loves it. Basically you are preaching abstinence, or at least only sex for procreation, which I think is really unreasonable and has been shown to not work. Also, hell - it's a healthy part of adulthood.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I think that's about right. As I posted about 1/2 were also using contraception, which is what Commish is getting at with taking reasonable precautions to avoid having a kid.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
When I was married, we used birth control but at anytime we knew she could come up pregnant. When she did, we dramatically changed our lives and welcomed the new world of family involving kids
I don't think many of us sit down and plan dates/times for conception and how we're going to do this, this and this when it happens.
Families happen, babies happen, when they do.
I'm saying BE RESPONSIBLE - because coming soon if you're not? You're going to have a 10 month pregnancy for the woman and the financial support of the man until baby is born and given away
That's going to be the choices in a lot of states - period.
Its going to make women and men think
and on that note - I think men should pay even MORE if they get a woman pregnant. All hospital bills plus a cost of living stipend .... I mean thousands of dollars worth of cost. If the woman is going to carry the baby to term, the man needs to pony up all the support we can make him and that's financially.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
And I am saying to the majority of people you talk to knowing you aren't ready for a kid, both partners agree, and using contraception properly is being responsible.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Why do you have to bring me into it?
Just tell me you don't like me instead of hiding behind this cowardly passive-aggressive nonsense. I'm a man - I can take it. I'll be just fine.
Go ahead, try it. Set yourself free.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
the majority of people who go 85 in a 55 aren't ready to pay a speeding ticket but they know the risk
but yeah, this is why we start teaching kids right now you better damn sure be ready to have kids when you start having sex because ladies, if you don't? you're going to have 10 months of carrying a baby to term before giving it for adoptions and guys? you're going to be thousands of dollars broke because you gotta pay all the medical and IMO stipend/support money too ..... aint going to be no more abortion for convenience , ya'll did the deed, knew the risks .... now personal responsibility sets in for those actions
Stoneworker
Footballguy
This is potentially believable about women since there would be a prescription.
But you actually believe men who get woman pregnant when they say in some survey that they were actually wearing a condom? Please.
Apple Juice
Footballguy
Man this has gotta be tempting. I have a lot of respect for posters not talking to you how you talk to them.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
If you think posters don't talk to me how I talk to them then you're either new here or you're not looking. Plenty of posters like that - I was just responding to KP since he brought me into it.
I might be a little rough around the edges but to know me is to love me.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I don't remember the break down from the articles I was reading, or if they were asking men or just the women when they came in for the procedure.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I saw that you loved that post, and it was a pretty straight forward position he was taking.
I don't know much about you, so how would I know if I like you or not? I don't think it's a secret that I don't like your posting style and many of your posts. I would guess that opinion goes the same for you.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
One of the many things we don't see eye to eye on is what I feel from your posts is your punitive nature. Of course you don't like it when people are punishing law abiding gun owners because 1000s of people are killing each other, but you seem to have 0 problems punishing people for being responsible and taking steps to not get pregnant, but that low % happens.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
See how easy that was?
BladeRunner is an acquired taste - it ain't the sugary sweet pop soda, boy band vibe we get from the average poster.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
That said, I have grown to at least respect your and SC's opinions more. As much as I disagree with a lot of them to my core, you express them and have reasons for them. The only people around here I tend to not respect are ones that are just popping in and taking shots and I have 0 clue what their opinion on topics are. Yes, a lot of us take shots now and then, but I think we still know where each other stands on issues.See how easy that was?
BladeRunner is an acquired taste - it ain't the sugary sweet pop soda, boy band vibe we get from the average poster.
the rover
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
FairWarning
Footballguy
Both sides are so unhinged on this.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Have people run across good articles/studies that attempt to figure out how many lives/abortions these types of regulations will actually save? Through random reading I have run across:
1. The Texas bans only dropped legal abortions by 1/2. That probably drops more over time, but I thought it was interesting that they specifically said "legal" abortions. The reason I thought this was interesting is because they currently have one of the most restrictive policies, correct?
2. We all admit and talk about how women who can, will get to another state. Also I am guessing if they already haven't, just like weed shops there will be clinics popping up right across the border from these restrictive states.
3. A recent conversation I listened to from a doctor had her saying in her experience rushing the decision probably led to more procedures, because the women didn't have as much time to think about it and/or didn't have time with the pregnancy to feel that aspect of it. Example was moving the date from current viability to something like 6 weeks puts a lot of people trying to decide in a week or so what to do about the pregnancy. I hadn't really thought of that before.
4. As tony pointed out - the states planning these restrictions are some of our less populated states, so that addresses a smaller % of the overall number from the start.
Anyway, more of a rambling post to say that it still blows my mind that if our goal is to reduce the number of abortions, why this is the solution vs. instead addressing the reasons why women are getting them in the first place, which would address women in all states, not just 1/2. Plus women get to keep control over their own body. (and yes, I get that if you think it's murder at conception or shortly thereafter, this post probably matters not to you).
Just trying to wrap my head around the effectiveness of these proposed restrictions overall.
1. The Texas bans only dropped legal abortions by 1/2. That probably drops more over time, but I thought it was interesting that they specifically said "legal" abortions. The reason I thought this was interesting is because they currently have one of the most restrictive policies, correct?
2. We all admit and talk about how women who can, will get to another state. Also I am guessing if they already haven't, just like weed shops there will be clinics popping up right across the border from these restrictive states.
3. A recent conversation I listened to from a doctor had her saying in her experience rushing the decision probably led to more procedures, because the women didn't have as much time to think about it and/or didn't have time with the pregnancy to feel that aspect of it. Example was moving the date from current viability to something like 6 weeks puts a lot of people trying to decide in a week or so what to do about the pregnancy. I hadn't really thought of that before.
4. As tony pointed out - the states planning these restrictions are some of our less populated states, so that addresses a smaller % of the overall number from the start.
Anyway, more of a rambling post to say that it still blows my mind that if our goal is to reduce the number of abortions, why this is the solution vs. instead addressing the reasons why women are getting them in the first place, which would address women in all states, not just 1/2. Plus women get to keep control over their own body. (and yes, I get that if you think it's murder at conception or shortly thereafter, this post probably matters not to you).
Just trying to wrap my head around the effectiveness of these proposed restrictions overall.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I suggested doing abortion like guns - 21 age limit, background checks, national registry, mandatory insurance, banning many types/kinds ... ya'll didn't seem to excited about that though
Its not punishment - its personal responsibility for actions and literally a living human being is at stake. Something that hasn't been talked about ... what about when those women and men at some point in the pregnancy say you know what? this is a great thing, not a bad thing and it changes their lives 100% for the best? where before they'd have had the abortion and went on?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
btw that's mutual - I see more why the social aspect etc is important to pro-choice people through these discussion
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Again, the big part of the bolded is...... choice. Awesome if they come to that conclusion, but they came to it on their own. As with everything else, there is a huge spectrum of reasons people are doing this and the type of people who are. 100% there are going to be women who regret having an abortion later. 100% there are going to be people who knew they made the right decision. You are comfortable making that choice for a woman, and I am not for the most part.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I think that's being lost in all this
If we could find a sure fire way to stop unwanted pregnancies - don't you think all the pro-life and all the pro-abortion people could come together and agree on that ? Almost all combined simply don't want unplanned pregnancies - the difference is one side wants to kill the unborn and shed the responsibility and the other side says for 10 months be responsible and let that life live
Other than really hitting kindergarten through high school HARD with pro-life information and repeatedly telling these kids that they WILL be responsible for babies .... the only other thing I can think of is the mass availability of a temp vascetomy procedure for all men. Clamp it, easily done, easily reversed, low side effects, cost efficient .. but what else we got ?
Personal choice / responsibility in this free country will ALWAYS lead to a good number of people doing stuff wrong. We still have millions driving intoxicated every year - millions texting and driving. Drug addictions/OD's all time high
Those should all be almost 0 and yet ... people choose really really poorly and they do it a lot :(
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I don't. One, there isn't a sure fire way (again, I go back to my example of the married couple getting pregnant despite using 2 forms of birth control - it happens). And two, there is a non-zero number of people on the pro-life side who are also against contraception.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
that's what laws do in our society - I'm comfortable having fully automatic rifles with 50 round clips - some people are not and that side won that decision and so, they're not allowed
this isn't new - hospitals have to provide prenatal care for the unborn, every law we have protects the unborn child ... only 1 SC ruling allowing women to have that unborn killed in the womb steps out of what we do in this country and that is - protect the unborn
my side is on the cusp of winning that inconsistency - and each state it appears will be allowed to determine when an abortion can take place and for who and hopefully it falls in line with every other definition/layer of protection unborn's have
can you see what I mean by the inconsistency ?
FairWarning
Footballguy
Or want the choice, especially in very strict states. I took a friend to get an abortion, was greeted by a bunch of religious zealots outside the place. She lived with the decision for a long time after.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
oh a small % on the fringe right I suppose but there is a small % on the fringe left that laugh when talking about having unborns killed so .... I mean you got those both right ?
when states vote/decide you'll see coming together and making bridges on this - and most IMO will ban abortions from a certain weeks on, with exceptions for rape/incest/health of mother
we'll see
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Do you still talk to her? Did she end up regretting the decision, or was that something that weighed on her, but she ended up thinking it was the correct choice?
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I guess I am not up on state by state laws on what you are getting at here. So my questions with that are:
1. How many of those reflect the federal terms of when that fetus is a "person" or not - do they include viablility, etc..?
2. If not, how much of those decisions were because legally they think the fetus is alive at all stages, or it's because whoever besides the mother made that decision and harmed the fetus did so against her will?
I could see how it would come off as inconsistent, but if a lot of them are written because of the idea of taking the choice from the mother and harming her body in the process, I don't think it is that inconsistent.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
And supermike?
And why start a thread asking for conservatives if you have them on ignore?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Good question on that last one. Probably a similar reasons others start threads without the intent of discussion.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Productive dialogue ceases to exist when those who dominate the conversation have rigid opinions that aren't aligned with one another and flat out refuse to listen to anything that doesn't fit their preconceived bias. Case in point...
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