Posada, Damon, Pettitte (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

On Mike & Mike this morning, Buster Olney indicated all three of these guys would be legit HOF candidates if they play another two years.

Posada

Damon

Pettitte

 

[jobarules]

Posada- No way. Hall of Very Good catchers

Damon- Maybe. He has a chance to get to 3000 hits which would put him in but I dont think hes a HOFer

Pettitte- If Mussina doesnt get in, then pettitte shouldnt get in. David Cone who was a much better pitcher than Pettitte barely made a blip in HOF voting.

 

[David Yudkin]

Damon is currently 575 hits short of 3000 and will be 36 in a few weeks.

 

[Michael Brown]

My initial thought was no, no, and no.

On second thought, however, Posada is going to finish as one of the best offensive catchers in history. His OPS+ of 124 barely trails Bench (126) and Berra (125) and is ahead of guys like Pudge, Carter, and Fisk. Now granted, his defense is nowhere near the level of those guys and with Pudge/Piazza as locks to go in, it might be tough for three catchers from the same era to get in. But the offensive numbers are there, as are the rings.

Damon NEEDS 3,000 hits to get the auto-entry because otherwise his numbers don't really stack up.

Agree with jobarules that Pettitte was rarely even the best pitcher on his own team, and would be third in line behind Mussina and Cone. He doesn't warrant serious consideration in my opinion.

 

[guru_007]

I think the only one that will potentially have a solid argument is Damon.

Sorry, but Posada's .277 lifetime average, maybe 1,600 hits and not so great defense does not get you in. He's a catcher with some pop in his bat, not a hall of famer. Javy Lopez career. If Jorge's in, Javy's in, and frankly neither's in. Comparing him to Carter/Fisk/Pudge is crazy talk.

Petitte ain't gonna make it. If he gets to 280 wins, his post season successes push him ahead of Mussina in my mind, but just not enough to get you in there. A decent pitcher who was blessed to pitch for some tremendous offensive teams.

Damon may not finish with 3,000 hits, but even at 2,800 he may have a decent argument. The only guys with 2,800+ hits not in hof:

Pete Rose

Craig Biggio - almost assuredly will be in

Palmeiro

Bonds

Harold Baines - was dh only

Damon should get to 2,800, could Biggio-it and get to 3,000 I suppose, and finish with 400+ steals, top 25 all time in runs....has an argument.

 

[TLEF316]

i've never considered any of them a HOF player. IMO, posada is the closest. But his overall numbers arent gonna be overwhelming.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

no way

 

[jfranco77]

my first thought was that Posada might be a top-15 catcher, plus the rings, so maybe. But looking at the numbers again I'd say probably not. I know catching isn't easy but he's only got 8 seasons over 500 PA in the modern era with all the medicine and treatment options that we have available.

Damon - no freaking way. Probably not among the 15-20 best outfielders to play during his time.

Pettitte - I wouldn't complain, but get in line behind Blyleven and TJ for sure. The guy is Herb Pennock with the ability to play in three post-season series a year. He's not Whitey Ford.

 

[Eephus]

Posada is better than Ray Schalk

 

[Spartans Rule]

Damon NEEDS 3,000 hits to get the auto-entry because otherwise his numbers don't really stack up.

3,000 hits shouldn't be an auto-entry IMO."Most hits" is one of the most overrated stats in baseball. It's a measure of longevity far more than skill. Over the same number of AB per season, hitting .250 for 12 years will get you as many hits as batting .300 for 10 years.Damon's a .288 lifetime hitter. Not a huge OBP guy or power threat either. Career OPS+ of 105 for an outfielder isn't doing it for me. Pretty good speed but he's not a Henderson or Brock where that's his calling card. Decent defender but not a gold glover. Only 2 All-Star appearances.When you consider all that, I really don't like the idea that he could get a magic bullet into Cooperstown just by hanging on until the bitter end and hitting an arbitary milestone.

 

[Knobs]

Posada - Maybe, but probably not. Still, one could make an argument and I wouldn't call them crazy.

Pettitte and Damon - No effin way. It's ludicrous to even suggest it imo.

 

[Jambi]

Since leaving KC Damon has never been close to being the best guy on his team. If he gets in I quit watching baseball.

 

[MaddHatter]

Olney lost some cred.

 

[shuke]

no way

 

[Giantseasonticketholder]

No.

No.

No.

Posada will get the most consideration and he and Pettitte will probably get their #'s retired, but I don't think of any of the 3 as HOF'ers.

I still think Bernie Williams should get more love.

 

[Michael Brown]

Damon NEEDS 3,000 hits to get the auto-entry because otherwise his numbers don't really stack up.

3,000 hits shouldn't be an auto-entry IMO."Most hits" is one of the most overrated stats in baseball. It's a measure of longevity far more than skill. Over the same number of AB per season, hitting .250 for 12 years will get you as many hits as batting .300 for 10 years.Damon's a .288 lifetime hitter. Not a huge OBP guy or power threat either. Career OPS+ of 105 for an outfielder isn't doing it for me. Pretty good speed but he's not a Henderson or Brock where that's his calling card. Decent defender but not a gold glover. Only 2 All-Star appearances.When you consider all that, I really don't like the idea that he could get a magic bullet into Cooperstown just by hanging on until the bitter end and hitting an arbitary milestone.

Completely agree with all of this. I was just saying, 3000 hits IS currently an auto-entry into the Hall so if he gets to that number he'll get into the hall, fair or not.

 

[flysack]

Yankees fan here.

I say No, No, and No.

 

[flysack]

Posada will get the most consideration and he and Pettitte will probably get their #'s retired, but I don't think of any of the 3 as HOF'ers. I still think Bernie Williams should get more love.

Disagree with all this, except that Posada will get the most HOF consideration. He will, but he won't get in.And neither he nor Pettite will have their numbers retired. The only numbers that will be retired from the current Yankees era are #2 and #42. Perhaps #6, if the politics of the situation changes in later years.

 

[Michael Brown]

I think the only one that will potentially have a solid argument is Damon.Sorry, but Posada's .277 lifetime average, maybe 1,600 hits and not so great defense does not get you in. He's a catcher with some pop in his bat, not a hall of famer. Javy Lopez career. If Jorge's in, Javy's in, and frankly neither's in. Comparing him to Carter/Fisk/Pudge is crazy talk.

I don't know what to think here. The guy below said that total hits is one of the most overrated categories there is, and I tend to agree with him. So the 1,600 hits comment holds no water for me. As for his .277 batting average, if that's not very good than neither is Carter's .262 or Fisk's .269 career mark. I'll give you the lack of defense thing, but two out of three of your criteria for being better is pretty invalid.I know it's one of those "New York" things, but fans of the team can see the difference when he's not in there. It's not a coincidence that the first time the Yanks missed the playoffs in 14 years (2008) is also the year Posada happened to miss significant time for the first time in his career.Add in the fact that he's not exactly washed-up (22 HR and 81 RBI despite only playing 111 games this year) and I can see him getting close to 300 HR and 1,200 RBI with an OPS+ that's higher than Carter, Fisk, and Pudge. If nothing else, it's got to at least get him in the conversation. Add in the three (hopefully more) rings and he's got a decent case.Personally, I think it's a lot crazier to compare Javy Lopez to Posada than to compare Posada to Fisk and Carter.

 

[Michael Brown]

Posada will get the most consideration and he and Pettitte will probably get their #'s retired, but I don't think of any of the 3 as HOF'ers. I still think Bernie Williams should get more love.

Disagree with all this, except that Posada will get the most HOF consideration. He will, but he won't get in.And neither he nor Pettite will have their numbers retired. The only numbers that will be retired from the current Yankees era are #2 and #42. Perhaps #6, if the politics of the situation changes in later years.

Bernie and O'Neill's numbers should be retired. I almost threw up when I saw that they had given out #21 to LaTroy Hawkins. Pettitte left for awhile there, but if he had remained a Yankee all the way through then I think his number would've gone up there as well.Depending on how the next 8 years go, A-Rod's #13 could sit out there as well.

 

[flysack]

Depending on how the next 8 years go, A-Rod's #13 could sit out there as well.

This just made me puke in my mouth.I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying it will be a dark day for the Evil Empire. Former Yankee greats have had personality issues. The Babe was an belligerent alcoholic. But he wasn't a lying d-bag whose own team disliked him. He and Lou disliked each other, but the Babe was generally a well liked guy. A-Rod is just a stat machine: there's nothing else to him.

 

[jobarules]

Posada will get the most consideration and he and Pettitte will probably get their #'s retired, but I don't think of any of the 3 as HOF'ers. I still think Bernie Williams should get more love.

Disagree with all this, except that Posada will get the most HOF consideration. He will, but he won't get in.And neither he nor Pettite will have their numbers retired. The only numbers that will be retired from the current Yankees era are #2 and #42. Perhaps #6, if the politics of the situation changes in later years.

Bernie and O'Neill's numbers should be retired. I almost threw up when I saw that they had given out #21 to LaTroy Hawkins. Pettitte left for awhile there, but if he had remained a Yankee all the way through then I think his number would've gone up there as well.Depending on how the next 8 years go, A-Rod's #13 could sit out there as well.

Come on man. You cant retire every friggin # of any decent Yankee. Theres no way in hell Paulie's # should be retired. I also dont think Pettitte or Posada's # should be retired. I think Jeter & Mariano and maybe Bernie but thats it. This retired #s crap is getting out of hand. It should only goto legendary Yankee players.

 

[guru_007]

I think the only one that will potentially have a solid argument is Damon.Sorry, but Posada's .277 lifetime average, maybe 1,600 hits and not so great defense does not get you in. He's a catcher with some pop in his bat, not a hall of famer. Javy Lopez career. If Jorge's in, Javy's in, and frankly neither's in. Comparing him to Carter/Fisk/Pudge is crazy talk.

I don't know what to think here. The guy below said that total hits is one of the most overrated categories there is, and I tend to agree with him. So the 1,600 hits comment holds no water for me. As for his .277 batting average, if that's not very good than neither is Carter's .262 or Fisk's .269 career mark. I'll give you the lack of defense thing, but two out of three of your criteria for being better is pretty invalid.I know it's one of those "New York" things, but fans of the team can see the difference when he's not in there. It's not a coincidence that the first time the Yanks missed the playoffs in 14 years (2008) is also the year Posada happened to miss significant time for the first time in his career.Add in the fact that he's not exactly washed-up (22 HR and 81 RBI despite only playing 111 games this year) and I can see him getting close to 300 HR and 1,200 RBI with an OPS+ that's higher than Carter, Fisk, and Pudge. If nothing else, it's got to at least get him in the conversation. Add in the three (hopefully more) rings and he's got a decent case.Personally, I think it's a lot crazier to compare Javy Lopez to Posada than to compare Posada to Fisk and Carter.

o.k.Except for the fact Carter and Fisk played 30-35 years ago in a completely different era, both were plus defensively, Carter was +++ defensively. I'm never going to accept comparing players power numbers in the '90's - '00's to players of the 70's - '80s. Game has changed significantly, pitching dilution, smaller ballparks, steroids, etc......Posada stats are nearly identical to Lopez and they played in the same era. They are a near perfect comparison.

 

[jobarules]

I think the only one that will potentially have a solid argument is Damon.

Sorry, but Posada's .277 lifetime average, maybe 1,600 hits and not so great defense does not get you in. He's a catcher with some pop in his bat, not a hall of famer. Javy Lopez career. If Jorge's in, Javy's in, and frankly neither's in. Comparing him to Carter/Fisk/Pudge is crazy talk.

I don't know what to think here. The guy below said that total hits is one of the most overrated categories there is, and I tend to agree with him. So the 1,600 hits comment holds no water for me. As for his .277 batting average, if that's not very good than neither is Carter's .262 or Fisk's .269 career mark. I'll give you the lack of defense thing, but two out of three of your criteria for being better is pretty invalid.I know it's one of those "New York" things, but fans of the team can see the difference when he's not in there. It's not a coincidence that the first time the Yanks missed the playoffs in 14 years (2008) is also the year Posada happened to miss significant time for the first time in his career.

Add in the fact that he's not exactly washed-up (22 HR and 81 RBI despite only playing 111 games this year) and I can see him getting close to 300 HR and 1,200 RBI with an OPS+ that's higher than Carter, Fisk, and Pudge. If nothing else, it's got to at least get him in the conversation. Add in the three (hopefully more) rings and he's got a decent case.

Personally, I think it's a lot crazier to compare Javy Lopez to Posada than to compare Posada to Fisk and Carter.

o.k.Except for the fact Carter and Fisk played 30-35 years ago in a completely different era, both were plus defensively, Carter was +++ defensively.

I'm never going to accept comparing players power numbers in the '90's - '00's to players of the 70's - '80s. Game has changed significantly, pitching dilution, smaller ballparks, steroids, etc......

Posada stats are nearly identical to Lopez and they played in the same era. They are a near perfect comparison.

Umm Javy Lopez is retired. Posada still has two more years at least to add to his career #s. Not saying hes a HOFer but saying his #s are identical to a guy who is retired when Jorge still has more yrs left to play is silly.

 

[Michael Brown]

I think the only one that will potentially have a solid argument is Damon.Sorry, but Posada's .277 lifetime average, maybe 1,600 hits and not so great defense does not get you in. He's a catcher with some pop in his bat, not a hall of famer. Javy Lopez career. If Jorge's in, Javy's in, and frankly neither's in. Comparing him to Carter/Fisk/Pudge is crazy talk.

I don't know what to think here. The guy below said that total hits is one of the most overrated categories there is, and I tend to agree with him. So the 1,600 hits comment holds no water for me. As for his .277 batting average, if that's not very good than neither is Carter's .262 or Fisk's .269 career mark. I'll give you the lack of defense thing, but two out of three of your criteria for being better is pretty invalid.I know it's one of those "New York" things, but fans of the team can see the difference when he's not in there. It's not a coincidence that the first time the Yanks missed the playoffs in 14 years (2008) is also the year Posada happened to miss significant time for the first time in his career.Add in the fact that he's not exactly washed-up (22 HR and 81 RBI despite only playing 111 games this year) and I can see him getting close to 300 HR and 1,200 RBI with an OPS+ that's higher than Carter, Fisk, and Pudge. If nothing else, it's got to at least get him in the conversation. Add in the three (hopefully more) rings and he's got a decent case.Personally, I think it's a lot crazier to compare Javy Lopez to Posada than to compare Posada to Fisk and Carter.

o.k.Except for the fact Carter and Fisk played 30-35 years ago in a completely different era, both were plus defensively, Carter was +++ defensively. I'm never going to accept comparing players power numbers in the '90's - '00's to players of the 70's - '80s. Game has changed significantly, pitching dilution, smaller ballparks, steroids, etc......

Right, that's why the basis for my comparison was OPS+, which eliminates the variables like era, park effects, steroids, etc.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

the only way any of those dudes get in is if they buy a ticket

But doesnt the media vote on this anyway? New York Yankee bias migt blind those homos to let them in

 

[Michael Brown]

Posada will get the most consideration and he and Pettitte will probably get their #'s retired, but I don't think of any of the 3 as HOF'ers.

I still think Bernie Williams should get more love.

Disagree with all this, except that Posada will get the most HOF consideration. He will, but he won't get in.And neither he nor Pettite will have their numbers retired. The only numbers that will be retired from the current Yankees era are #2 and #42.

Perhaps #6, if the politics of the situation changes in later years.

Bernie and O'Neill's numbers should be retired. I almost threw up when I saw that they had given out #21 to LaTroy Hawkins. Pettitte left for awhile there, but if he had remained a Yankee all the way through then I think his number would've gone up there as well.Depending on how the next 8 years go, A-Rod's #13 could sit out there as well.

Come on man. You cant retire every friggin # of any decent Yankee. Theres no way in hell Paulie's # should be retired. I also dont think Pettitte or Posada's # should be retired. I think Jeter & Mariano and maybe Bernie but thats it. This retired #s crap is getting out of hand. It should only goto legendary Yankee players.

So basically you agree with me that Jeter, Mo, and Bernie's numbers should be retired. And you also agree with me that Pettitte and Posada shouldn't be. I wasn't saying Pettite's should be retired, just that if he had stayed with the Yanks all the way through then it would have been. Don't you think so? So the only one we disagree on is O'Neill if I'm reading your post correctly.C'mon dude -- he was the heart and soul of the team and the most beloved Yankee of his era. Why is Thurman Munson's number sitting out there then, or Mattingly's? Those guys aren't Hall of Famers either.

As for the retired numbers getting out of hand, well it's been out of hand for a long time now. That was a joke going back to the 80's that the Yankees were going to run out of #'s because of all the retired ones.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I could understand the arguments. I think part of it will also be the fact that these three guys are "clean" in this era, while with Pettite he admitted to doing HGH and basically got a pass because he didn't play the I speak no English game that others have. The guys from this era are going to have interesting arguments for their seats in the hall.

 

[Sammy3469]

I can't believe people are comparing the OPS+ of a guy at 37 versus the career OPS+ of a guy who played until he was 45.

For some comparison Fisk's average OPS+ at 37 (which I know isn't the correct way to calculate, but I'm not going to spend the time doing the calculation since its so pointless anyway) was 123. So its similar. Now wake me when Posada plays until he's 45 and is a contributor as a C (hell half the SPs on the Yankees now don't even want him catching them) which is the only reason Fisk put up the numbers necessary for the HOF.

 

[Michael Brown]

I can't believe people are comparing the OPS+ of a guy at 37 versus the career OPS+ of a guy who played until he was 45.

For some comparison Fisk's average OPS+ at 37 (which I know isn't the correct way to calculate, but I'm not going to spend the time doing the calculation since its so pointless anyway) was 123. So its similar. Now wake me when Posada plays until he's 45 and is a contributor as a C (hell half the SPs on the Yankees now don't even want him catching them) which is the only reason Fisk put up the numbers necessary for the HOF.

So you agree that they're similar offensively at the same age. So if Posada regresses at the rate that Fisk did into his forties and plays til he's 45, we can assume that he'll finish with an OPS+ right around the same as Fisk. Again, doesn't that put him in the conversation??? Being as good an offensive performer as one of the best-hitting catchers of all-time?!?By the way, nobody is saying that Posada is in Fisk's league defensively. Jeff Kent wasn't a very good defensive 2B, nor was Piazza as a C, nor is Jeter as a SS...they're all gonna be in the Hall because their offensive contributions are amongst the best at their positions. Posada's stats right now don't quite stack up as well as those guys but he's not SO far off that it's a ridiculous notion to have him in the conversation. That's all I was trying to say.

 

[Sammy3469]

I can't believe people are comparing the OPS+ of a guy at 37 versus the career OPS+ of a guy who played until he was 45.

For some comparison Fisk's average OPS+ at 37 (which I know isn't the correct way to calculate, but I'm not going to spend the time doing the calculation since its so pointless anyway) was 123. So its similar. Now wake me when Posada plays until he's 45 and is a contributor as a C (hell half the SPs on the Yankees now don't even want him catching them) which is the only reason Fisk put up the numbers necessary for the HOF.

So you agree that they're similar offensively at the same age. So if Posada regresses at the rate that Fisk did into his forties and plays til he's 45, we can assume that he'll finish with an OPS+ right around the same as Fisk. Again, doesn't that put him in the conversation??? Being as good an offensive performer as one of the best-hitting catchers of all-time?!?By the way, nobody is saying that Posada is in Fisk's league defensively. Jeff Kent wasn't a very good defensive 2B, nor was Piazza as a C, nor is Jeter as a SS...they're all gonna be in the Hall because their offensive contributions are amongst the best at their positions. Posada's stats right now don't quite stack up as well as those guys but he's not SO far off that it's a ridiculous notion to have him in the conversation. That's all I was trying to say.

I'm sorry, but this entire conversation is more than a little funny to me. Fisk is literally the only C who has ever put up those numbers as a 40+ year old catcher. Literally the only one. You're trying to compare a guy that's played a total of 162 games the past 2 years to one of the biggest physical freaks of all time.

 

[jobarules]

Posada will get the most consideration and he and Pettitte will probably get their #'s retired, but I don't think of any of the 3 as HOF'ers.

I still think Bernie Williams should get more love.

Disagree with all this, except that Posada will get the most HOF consideration. He will, but he won't get in.And neither he nor Pettite will have their numbers retired. The only numbers that will be retired from the current Yankees era are #2 and #42.

Perhaps #6, if the politics of the situation changes in later years.

Bernie and O'Neill's numbers should be retired. I almost threw up when I saw that they had given out #21 to LaTroy Hawkins. Pettitte left for awhile there, but if he had remained a Yankee all the way through then I think his number would've gone up there as well.Depending on how the next 8 years go, A-Rod's #13 could sit out there as well.

Come on man. You cant retire every friggin # of any decent Yankee. Theres no way in hell Paulie's # should be retired. I also dont think Pettitte or Posada's # should be retired. I think Jeter & Mariano and maybe Bernie but thats it. This retired #s crap is getting out of hand. It should only goto legendary Yankee players.

So basically you agree with me that Jeter, Mo, and Bernie's numbers should be retired. And you also agree with me that Pettitte and Posada shouldn't be. I wasn't saying Pettite's should be retired, just that if he had stayed with the Yanks all the way through then it would have been. Don't you think so? So the only one we disagree on is O'Neill if I'm reading your post correctly.C'mon dude -- he was the heart and soul of the team and the most beloved Yankee of his era. Why is Thurman Munson's number sitting out there then, or Mattingly's? Those guys aren't Hall of Famers either.

As for the retired numbers getting out of hand, well it's been out of hand for a long time now. That was a joke going back to the 80's that the Yankees were going to run out of #'s because of all the retired ones.

I dont know about that. Plus he played onthe team for 9 seasons.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Hell no

Hell ####### no

Probably not but I could change my mind if he pitches a couple more years

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

retire Paul O'Neill's number? really?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

C'mon dude -- he was the heart and soul of the team and the most beloved Yankee of his era. Why is Thurman Munson's number sitting out there then, or Mattingly's? Those guys aren't Hall of Famers either.

Donnie Baseball was a league MVP and spent his entire career with the Yankees.Paul O'Neill spent half his career in Cincinnati and doesn't seem to compare very favorably in most metrics.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mattido01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...27neipa01.shtml

 

[Michael Brown]

C'mon dude -- he was the heart and soul of the team and the most beloved Yankee of his era. Why is Thurman Munson's number sitting out there then, or Mattingly's? Those guys aren't Hall of Famers either.

Donnie Baseball was a league MVP and spent his entire career with the Yankees.Paul O'Neill spent half his career in Cincinnati and doesn't seem to compare very favorably in most metrics.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mattido01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...27neipa01.shtml

Mattingly is my favorite player ever so keep that in mind when I compare O'Neill to him. With O'Neill it's not just stats...pay attention to the ovations each guy gets when they come back for OTD. His and Mattingly's are always louder and longer than those for anyone else. Even Yankee players have acknowledged that there was an emotional void on the team when O'Neill retired after the 2001 season.And if that's not enough, Game 5 of the 2001 WS should tell you all you need to know about the love New Yorkers have for Paulie. Possibly my favorite moment as a Yankee fan ever.

 

[jobarules]

so now we retire #s cuz of ovations? Might as well hang up Sojo's old number

 

[Tau837]

I voted no for all three.

There is some decent discussion in this thread about HOFers playing in a given season: Hall of Fame Manifesto. In that thread, we went back to 2003 to avoid the problem of young players who have not yet emerged, and identified 20+ deserving HOFers that played then. I actually came up with 23 and David Yudkin said 26.

The point is, isn't it likely that there are 20+ players who played in 2009 who will be more deserving than Posada, Damon, and Pettite? I think so. And I think that severely impacts their chances of making it.

 

[Daywalker]

Pettite needs about 50 more wins which is very possible if he decides to continue.

Damon and Posada are not on HOF trajectory IMO. Don't care if Damon get's 3000 hits. Don't think Biggio is a HOF'er either.

The steriod era will and should be a major factor. Accumulating the stats but not passing the "gut" test will make all the difference now. Biggio may get in but it won't be anytime soon if ever.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Pettite needs about 50 more wins which is very possible if he decides to continue.Damon and Posada are not on HOF trajectory IMO. Don't care if Damon get's 3000 hits. Don't think Biggio is a HOF'er either.The steriod era will and should be a major factor. Accumulating the stats but not passing the "gut" test will make all the difference now. Biggio may get in but it won't be anytime soon if ever.

Biggio will get in within his first 3 years of eligibility, if not 1st ballot IMO

 

[Darth Cheney]

What do you guys feel about Abreu's HOF chances?

 

[Michael Brown]

What do you guys feel about Abreu's HOF chances?

My first reaction is that he's Bernie Williams without the rings. Upon looking on BBR, Bernie is his most similar player through age 34. Abreu has been underrated throughout his career, but I think he's a Hall of very good type of guy just like Bernie. Not enough power for a corner OF, and his defense was pretty abysmal.That said, he could finish up with 300 HR/300 SB and a .300 BA with over 2,500 hits and without any steroid allegations surrounding him, so who knows how voters will look at those kind of guys in 10 years or so? I just never considered him one of the elite players in the league at his position.

 

[guru_007]

Pettite needs about 50 more wins which is very possible if he decides to continue.Damon and Posada are not on HOF trajectory IMO. Don't care if Damon get's 3000 hits. Don't think Biggio is a HOF'er either.The steriod era will and should be a major factor. Accumulating the stats but not passing the "gut" test will make all the difference now. Biggio may get in but it won't be anytime soon if ever.

Biggio will get in within his first 3 years of eligibility, if not 1st ballot IMO

I agree that Biggio will get in, but I also hate the fact that he is a shoe in to get in. He is the epitome of a guy that hung around just to get the hits necessary to get in. He had about 3-4 awesome years, but is not hof material, imo. He has exactly 1, 200 hit season (same as Damon)His liftetime ops of .796 is almost identical to Damon's .794He has 291 lifetime homers, Damon should get close to that if not surpass it414 lifetime steals, Damon currently at 374In fact, Damon should probably surpass every offensive stat Biggio posted, except maybe liftetime hits....and if Damon hangs on to play at 41 same as Biggio, he should surpass Biggio in hits tooSure, they played different positions, and Biggio in his prime was a plus defensive player, but if Biggio is a surefire HOF (more than likely first ballot), then Damon would need to be in too, imho if he plays 6 more years.I don't think Biggio is a HOFer to be honest, but I am jaded. I am pissed that he played, and hurt his team, for the last 5-6 years of his career. At his peak, he was a hof caliber player, but his peak was only about 4-5 years. I think to get in the hall you need at least 7...maybe 9 or 10 hof caliber years, not just a body of work. But, if the precedent been's set, then I think Damon deserves due consideration too.

 

[guru_007]

What do you guys feel about Abreu's HOF chances?

My first reaction is that he's Bernie Williams without the rings. Upon looking on BBR, Bernie is his most similar player through age 34. Abreu has been underrated throughout his career, but I think he's a Hall of very good type of guy just like Bernie. Not enough power for a corner OF, and his defense was pretty abysmal.That said, he could finish up with 300 HR/300 SB and a .300 BA with over 2,500 hits and without any steroid allegations surrounding him, so who knows how voters will look at those kind of guys in 10 years or so? I just never considered him one of the elite players in the league at his position.

Abreu is such a solid player, but can't see him getting in the hof.I thought there would be a pretty deep club of players that went 300 hr/300 sb, but not really the case. Club includes:Barry BondsWillie MaysAndre DawsonBobby BondsReggie SandersSteve FinleyPretty steep fall of there after the top two. And if Dawson doesn't get in, I can't imagine Abreu having a prayer

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Pettite needs about 50 more wins which is very possible if he decides to continue.Damon and Posada are not on HOF trajectory IMO. Don't care if Damon get's 3000 hits. Don't think Biggio is a HOF'er either.The steriod era will and should be a major factor. Accumulating the stats but not passing the "gut" test will make all the difference now. Biggio may get in but it won't be anytime soon if ever.

Biggio will get in within his first 3 years of eligibility, if not 1st ballot IMO

I agree that Biggio will get in, but I also hate the fact that he is a shoe in to get in. He is the epitome of a guy that hung around just to get the hits necessary to get in. He had about 3-4 awesome years, but is not hof material, imo. He has exactly 1, 200 hit season (same as Damon)His liftetime ops of .796 is almost identical to Damon's .794He has 291 lifetime homers, Damon should get close to that if not surpass it414 lifetime steals, Damon currently at 374In fact, Damon should probably surpass every offensive stat Biggio posted, except maybe liftetime hits....and if Damon hangs on to play at 41 same as Biggio, he should surpass Biggio in hits tooSure, they played different positions, and Biggio in his prime was a plus defensive player, but if Biggio is a surefire HOF (more than likely first ballot), then Damon would need to be in too, imho if he plays 6 more years.I don't think Biggio is a HOFer to be honest, but I am jaded. I am pissed that he played, and hurt his team, for the last 5-6 years of his career. At his peak, he was a hof caliber player, but his peak was only about 4-5 years. I think to get in the hall you need at least 7...maybe 9 or 10 hof caliber years, not just a body of work. But, if the precedent been's set, then I think Damon deserves due consideration too.

You are WAAAAAY underrating positional and fielding considerationsBiggio was an all star at both catcher and second base, and won a silver slugger at both positions as wellHe was a 4 time gold glover at second alsoDamon's being a centerfielder for the vast majority of his career helps him more than if he had been a corner OF, but he has never been a particularly good defensive OFerAnd not that this is definitve, but look at their respective comparables at baseball reference:Biggio: 1. Robin Yount (844) * 2. Paul Molitor (787) * 3. Joe Morgan (783) * 4. Cal Ripken (781) * 5. Roberto Alomar (776) 6. Brooks Robinson (747) * 7. George Brett (744) * 8. Lou Whitaker (741) 9. Ivan Rodriguez (728) 10. Ryne Sandberg (725) *Damon: 1. Cesar Cedeno (901) 2. Amos Otis (894) 3. Ken Griffey (893) 4. Jose Cruz (891) 5. Marquis Grissom (877) 6. Kenny Lofton (872) 7. Barry Larkin (870) 8. Minnie Minoso (862) 9. Ray Durham (860) 10. Devon White (859)I don't think you can possibly compare the twoBiggio will deservedly make the HOFDamon will have to make do with having an excellent career, at least one ring, and a ####load of money

 

[guru_007]

You are WAAAAAY underrating positional and fielding considerationsAnd not that this is definitve, but look at their respective comparables at baseball reference:Biggio: 1. Robin Yount (844) * 2. Paul Molitor (787) * 3. Joe Morgan (783) * 4. Cal Ripken (781) * 5. Roberto Alomar (776) 6. Brooks Robinson (747) * 7. George Brett (744) * 8. Lou Whitaker (741) 9. Ivan Rodriguez (728) 10. Ryne Sandberg (725) *I don't think you can possibly compare the two

while I'm sure I am underestimating the impact of Biggio's defense and position, as I'm admittedly biased and jaded....can you remind me again which positions Robin Yount & Paul Molitor played?If Damon plays to 41, same as Biggio, and puts up 3,000 hits, 300 hr's, 500 sb, 1844 runs (tied with Biggio for 13th all time...averaging 70is per year, 30 below what he has been averaging the past decade).....do you keep him out of the hof, yet first ballot Biggio?

 

[stevegamer]

You are WAAAAAY underrating positional and fielding considerationsAnd not that this is definitve, but look at their respective comparables at baseball reference:Biggio: 1. Robin Yount (844) * 2. Paul Molitor (787) * 3. Joe Morgan (783) * 4. Cal Ripken (781) * 5. Roberto Alomar (776) 6. Brooks Robinson (747) * 7. George Brett (744) * 8. Lou Whitaker (741) 9. Ivan Rodriguez (728) 10. Ryne Sandberg (725) *I don't think you can possibly compare the two

while I'm sure I am underestimating the impact of Biggio's defense and position, as I'm admittedly biased and jaded....can you remind me again which positions Robin Yount & Paul Molitor played?If Damon plays to 41, same as Biggio, and puts up 3,000 hits, 300 hr's, 500 sb, 1844 runs (tied with Biggio for 13th all time...averaging 70is per year, 30 below what he has been averaging the past decade).....do you keep him out of the hof, yet first ballot Biggio?

Yount: SS, then CF.Molitor: 2B, then 3B, then 1B, then DH. Both have positional adjustments favoring them.

 

[phthalatemagic]

Yes to all. These guys are Yankees, don't forget.

 

[Tau837]

Damon and Posada are not on HOF trajectory IMO. Don't care if Damon get's 3000 hits. Don't think Biggio is a HOF'er either.

The steriod era will and should be a major factor. Accumulating the stats but not passing the "gut" test will make all the difference now. Biggio may get in but it won't be anytime soon if ever.

Biggio will get in within his first 3 years of eligibility, if not 1st ballot IMO

I agree that Biggio will get in, but I also hate the fact that he is a shoe in to get in. He is the epitome of a guy that hung around just to get the hits necessary to get in. He had about 3-4 awesome years, but is not hof material, imo.

He has exactly 1, 200 hit season (same as Damon)

His liftetime ops of .796 is almost identical to Damon's .794

He has 291 lifetime homers, Damon should get close to that if not surpass it

414 lifetime steals, Damon currently at 374

In fact, Damon should probably surpass every offensive stat Biggio posted, except maybe liftetime hits....and if Damon hangs on to play at 41 same as Biggio, he should surpass Biggio in hits too

Sure, they played different positions, and Biggio in his prime was a plus defensive player, but if Biggio is a surefire HOF (more than likely first ballot), then Damon would need to be in too, imho if he plays 6 more years.

I don't think Biggio is a HOFer to be honest, but I am jaded. I am pissed that he played, and hurt his team, for the last 5-6 years of his career. At his peak, he was a hof caliber player, but his peak was only about 4-5 years. I think to get in the hall you need at least 7...maybe 9 or 10 hof caliber years, not just a body of work. But, if the precedent been's set, then I think Damon deserves due consideration too.

You are WAAAAAY underrating positional and fielding considerationsBiggio was an all star at both catcher and second base, and won a silver slugger at both positions as well

He was a 4 time gold glover at second also

Damon's being a centerfielder for the vast majority of his career helps him more than if he had been a corner OF, but he has never been a particularly good defensive OFer

And not that this is definitve, but look at their respective comparables at baseball reference:

Biggio:

1. Robin Yount (844) *

2. Paul Molitor (787) *

3. Joe Morgan (783) *

4. Cal Ripken (781) *

5. Roberto Alomar (776)

6. Brooks Robinson (747) *

7. George Brett (744) *

8. Lou Whitaker (741)

9. Ivan Rodriguez (728)

10. Ryne Sandberg (725) *

Damon:

1. Cesar Cedeno (901)

2. Amos Otis (894)

3. Ken Griffey (893)

4. Jose Cruz (891)

5. Marquis Grissom (877)

6. Kenny Lofton (872)

7. Barry Larkin (870)

8. Minnie Minoso (862)

9. Ray Durham (860)

10. Devon White (859)

I don't think you can possibly compare the two

Biggio will deservedly make the HOF

Damon will have to make do with having an excellent career, at least one ring, and a ####load of money

Not sure how people feel about Bill James around here, but I like him and respect his opinions. In his 2003 Historical Baseball Abstract, he had these things to say about Biggio:

He rated Biggio as the #5 second baseman of all time, behind only Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby, and Jackie Robinson.
He rated Biggio as the #35 baseball player in baseball history... with at least a few Negro League players ahead of him, meaning he ranks slightly higher on the all time list of players in major league history.
He said: "Craig Biggio is the best player in major league baseball today. If you compare Craig Biggio very carefully to Ken Griffey, Jr. in almost any season, you will find that Biggio has contributed more to his team than Griffey has." He went on to show examples of this.
He described a collection of statistics including sacrifice hits, sacrifice flies, intentional walks, times hit by pitch, and times grounding into double plays as "little stats" and claims that Biggio has the best "little stats" of any player in baseball history, which is a reason he has been "tremendously underrated." He gives an example comparison to Jim Rice and claims that Biggio's "little stats" in the comparison are equivalent to 100 points in batting average.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Damon and Posada are not on HOF trajectory IMO. Don't care if Damon get's 3000 hits. Don't think Biggio is a HOF'er either.

The steriod era will and should be a major factor. Accumulating the stats but not passing the "gut" test will make all the difference now. Biggio may get in but it won't be anytime soon if ever.

Biggio will get in within his first 3 years of eligibility, if not 1st ballot IMO

I agree that Biggio will get in, but I also hate the fact that he is a shoe in to get in. He is the epitome of a guy that hung around just to get the hits necessary to get in. He had about 3-4 awesome years, but is not hof material, imo.

He has exactly 1, 200 hit season (same as Damon)

His liftetime ops of .796 is almost identical to Damon's .794

He has 291 lifetime homers, Damon should get close to that if not surpass it

414 lifetime steals, Damon currently at 374

In fact, Damon should probably surpass every offensive stat Biggio posted, except maybe liftetime hits....and if Damon hangs on to play at 41 same as Biggio, he should surpass Biggio in hits too

Sure, they played different positions, and Biggio in his prime was a plus defensive player, but if Biggio is a surefire HOF (more than likely first ballot), then Damon would need to be in too, imho if he plays 6 more years.

I don't think Biggio is a HOFer to be honest, but I am jaded. I am pissed that he played, and hurt his team, for the last 5-6 years of his career. At his peak, he was a hof caliber player, but his peak was only about 4-5 years. I think to get in the hall you need at least 7...maybe 9 or 10 hof caliber years, not just a body of work. But, if the precedent been's set, then I think Damon deserves due consideration too.

You are WAAAAAY underrating positional and fielding considerationsBiggio was an all star at both catcher and second base, and won a silver slugger at both positions as well

He was a 4 time gold glover at second also

Damon's being a centerfielder for the vast majority of his career helps him more than if he had been a corner OF, but he has never been a particularly good defensive OFer

And not that this is definitve, but look at their respective comparables at baseball reference:

Biggio:

1. Robin Yount (844) *

2. Paul Molitor (787) *

3. Joe Morgan (783) *

4. Cal Ripken (781) *

5. Roberto Alomar (776)

6. Brooks Robinson (747) *

7. George Brett (744) *

8. Lou Whitaker (741)

9. Ivan Rodriguez (728)

10. Ryne Sandberg (725) *

Damon:

1. Cesar Cedeno (901)

2. Amos Otis (894)

3. Ken Griffey (893)

4. Jose Cruz (891)

5. Marquis Grissom (877)

6. Kenny Lofton (872)

7. Barry Larkin (870)

8. Minnie Minoso (862)

9. Ray Durham (860)

10. Devon White (859)

I don't think you can possibly compare the two

Biggio will deservedly make the HOF

Damon will have to make do with having an excellent career, at least one ring, and a ####load of money

Not sure how people feel about Bill James around here, but I like him and respect his opinions. In his 2003 Historical Baseball Abstract, he had these things to say about Biggio:

He rated Biggio as the #5 second baseman of all time, behind only Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby, and Jackie Robinson.
He rated Biggio as the #35 baseball player in baseball history... with at least a few Negro League players ahead of him, meaning he ranks slightly higher on the all time list of players in major league history.
He said: "Craig Biggio is the best player in major league baseball today. If you compare Craig Biggio very carefully to Ken Griffey, Jr. in almost any season, you will find that Biggio has contributed more to his team than Griffey has." He went on to show examples of this.
He described a collection of statistics including sacrifice hits, sacrifice flies, intentional walks, times hit by pitch, and times grounding into double plays as "little stats" and claims that Biggio has the best "little stats" of any player in baseball history, which is a reason he has been "tremendously underrated." He gives an example comparison to Jim Rice and claims that Biggio's "little stats" in the comparison are equivalent to 100 points in batting average.

Biggio is HOF, no doubt in my mind but Bill James is not always right and at times I think he's way off the mark. Jackie Robinson was a better all-time 2Bman than Charlie Gehringer? That's ridiculous. Neither was Biggio, although Biggio is still top five because Jackie Robinson should not be listed.