Posada, Damon, Pettitte (1 Viewer)

[Tau837]

Not sure how people feel about Bill James around here, but I like him and respect his opinions. In his 2003 Historical Baseball Abstract, he had these things to say about Biggio:

He rated Biggio as the #5 second baseman of all time, behind only Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby, and Jackie Robinson.
He rated Biggio as the #35 baseball player in baseball history... with at least a few Negro League players ahead of him, meaning he ranks slightly higher on the all time list of players in major league history.
He said: "Craig Biggio is the best player in major league baseball today. If you compare Craig Biggio very carefully to Ken Griffey, Jr. in almost any season, you will find that Biggio has contributed more to his team than Griffey has." He went on to show examples of this.
He described a collection of statistics including sacrifice hits, sacrifice flies, intentional walks, times hit by pitch, and times grounding into double plays as "little stats" and claims that Biggio has the best "little stats" of any player in baseball history, which is a reason he has been "tremendously underrated." He gives an example comparison to Jim Rice and claims that Biggio's "little stats" in the comparison are equivalent to 100 points in batting average.

Biggio is HOF, no doubt in my mind but Bill James is not always right and at times I think he's way off the mark. Jackie Robinson was a better all-time 2Bman than Charlie Gehringer? :whoosh: That's ridiculous. Neither was Biggio, although Biggio is still top five because Jackie Robinson should not be listed.

I agree with the bolded. But my response was following up another response to a post saying Biggio is not a HOFer... I think a respected guy like James having strong opinions like these should put that to rest.As for Gehringer, James had him at #8 in 2003, behind Lajoie and Sandberg in addition to the others I mentioned previously. But the Baseball Page had Gehringer at #5 and Robinson at #6... not sure it's quite the gap you are suggesting here. And I have seen other rankings with Robinson higher than Gehringer.

 

[Eephus]

James' rankings include park effects which are interesting for discussion purposes but don't really factor into Hall of Fame decisions. Since Biggio played much of his career in the Astrodome, he gets a bigger boost than most. The James rankings date back to 2003 so they also miss much of Biggio's decline.

I'm sure the #5 ranking gave Bill a good talking point during his book tour but I think James overrates Biggio. It's hard for me to rank him among all-time second basemen when he began and ended his career elsewhere. But #5 or #10 are just numbers. He was a very productive player for a long time. Posada and Damon both have a ways to go before being comparable to Biggio.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I agree with the bolded. But my response was following up another response to a post saying Biggio is not a HOFer... I think a respected guy like James having strong opinions like these should put that to rest.

As for Gehringer, James had him at #8 in 2003, behind Lajoie and Sandberg in addition to the others I mentioned previously. But the Baseball Page had Gehringer at #5 and Robinson at #6... not sure it's quite the gap you are suggesting here. And I have seen other rankings with Robinson higher than Gehringer.

OMG, I didn't realize James didn't have Lajoie in the top 5 Here is my spiel on Lajoie and 2Bman:

Nap Lajoie played in the deadball era as did Collins so their stats compare to modern day players. Nap's career OPS+ was 150! 150 I said! Three times his OPS + was 199 or better which is simply off the charts.

He was facing Rube Wadell, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Chief Bender, and Jack Chesbro. Are you kidding me? Those five could have played in any era. Johnson and Wadell in particular were probably two of the five most talented pitchers to ever play the game (Gibson, Randy Johnson, Christy Mathewson would be my other three).

In 1904 LaJoie hit .376 when the league average was .244. LaJoie was easily the best player in the league that year and it wasn't even close. While players like Joe Morgan had to face the likes of Bob Gibson and Nap had to hit a ball that would fall apart by the 5th inning and play in parks where the fences like at Hilltop Park were 380 feet to right field and 45 of the 47 HRs hit there in 1904 were inside the park HRs. Lajoie had 102 RBIs that year 18 more than the second place guy and only five AL hitters hit over .300 that year. Incredible. And LaJoie had many fine years like that and that is why he was one of the original inductees into the Baseball HOF.

Also do you know what the Cleveland franchise was named? The Naps, after their second baseman. I'm not sure if Cincinnati will ever name their team the "Mumblers" after Joe Morgan but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Nap LaJoie was a better baseball player than Joe Morgan. So was Eddie Collins, and for sure Hornsby who was better than all of them. Hornsby is probably one of the ten best baseball players ever not just one of the best 2Bman. Morgan is not even top 100.

And what's with listing Sandberg?

Hornsby>LaJoie>>>Collins>Gehringer>Morgan>Carew>Frankie Frisch>Jackie Robinson>>>>>>>Alomar>>Kent>>>Sandberg

On Gehringer v Robinson:Gehringer played longer, has more hits, Hrs, extra base hits, everything really. Has a slightly better OPS, slightly worse OPS+ but Gehringer was awful his last 500 ABs at age 38 and 39 (Robinson retired at 37). They both had 4 great seasons but Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135 to Robinson's 5. Gehringer had a slightly better fielding percentage and a slightly better range factor although Robinson had the bigger gap from range factor to league average RF for his time. Gehringer had better post season results both in hitting and in team success. Robinson finished 1st in power/speed ration but Gehringer not known for his speed, also did it twice. Gehringer was top ten in runs 12 times, Robinson 7 times.

IMO Robinson is overrated which isn't taking anything away from his contributio to the game. If we had to consider that he'd probably be a top five player ever but we are talking straight skill and career accomplishments here and Gehringer's numbers are just better. Had Robinson played 5 more years he would have probably passed the guys I have listed in front of him. Both were great, Gehringer was just consistently great over a longer period of time.

Biggio? Maybe just behind Alomar but ahead of Kent. Only reason I rank Alomar higher is I think his gold gloves and his post season impact trumps Biggio's hits and career Hrs. But they are really close.

 

[Tau837]

I agree with the bolded. But my response was following up another response to a post saying Biggio is not a HOFer... I think a respected guy like James having strong opinions like these should put that to rest.

As for Gehringer, James had him at #8 in 2003, behind Lajoie and Sandberg in addition to the others I mentioned previously. But the Baseball Page had Gehringer at #5 and Robinson at #6... not sure it's quite the gap you are suggesting here. And I have seen other rankings with Robinson higher than Gehringer.

OMG, I didn't realize James didn't have Lajoie in the top 5 Here is my spiel on Lajoie and 2Bman:

Nap Lajoie played in the deadball era as did Collins so their stats compare to modern day players. Nap's career OPS+ was 150! 150 I said! Three times his OPS + was 199 or better which is simply off the charts.

He was facing Rube Wadell, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Chief Bender, and Jack Chesbro. Are you kidding me? Those five could have played in any era. Johnson and Wadell in particular were probably two of the five most talented pitchers to ever play the game (Gibson, Randy Johnson, Christy Mathewson would be my other three).

In 1904 LaJoie hit .376 when the league average was .244. LaJoie was easily the best player in the league that year and it wasn't even close. While players like Joe Morgan had to face the likes of Bob Gibson and Nap had to hit a ball that would fall apart by the 5th inning and play in parks where the fences like at Hilltop Park were 380 feet to right field and 45 of the 47 HRs hit there in 1904 were inside the park HRs. Lajoie had 102 RBIs that year 18 more than the second place guy and only five AL hitters hit over .300 that year. Incredible. And LaJoie had many fine years like that and that is why he was one of the original inductees into the Baseball HOF.

Also do you know what the Cleveland franchise was named? The Naps, after their second baseman. I'm not sure if Cincinnati will ever name their team the "Mumblers" after Joe Morgan but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Nap LaJoie was a better baseball player than Joe Morgan. So was Eddie Collins, and for sure Hornsby who was better than all of them. Hornsby is probably one of the ten best baseball players ever not just one of the best 2Bman. Morgan is not even top 100.

And what's with listing Sandberg? :X

Hornsby>LaJoie>>>Collins>Gehringer>Morgan>Carew>Frankie Frisch>Jackie Robinson>>>>>>>Alomar>>Kent>>>Sandberg

On Gehringer v Robinson:Gehringer played longer, has more hits, Hrs, extra base hits, everything really. Has a slightly better OPS, slightly worse OPS+ but Gehringer was awful his last 500 ABs at age 38 and 39 (Robinson retired at 37). They both had 4 great seasons but Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135 to Robinson's 5. Gehringer had a slightly better fielding percentage and a slightly better range factor although Robinson had the bigger gap from range factor to league average RF for his time. Gehringer had better post season results both in hitting and in team success. Robinson finished 1st in power/speed ration but Gehringer not known for his speed, also did it twice. Gehringer was top ten in runs 12 times, Robinson 7 times.

IMO Robinson is overrated which isn't taking anything away from his contributio to the game. If we had to consider that he'd probably be a top five player ever but we are talking straight skill and career accomplishments here and Gehringer's numbers are just better. Had Robinson played 5 more years he would have probably passed the guys I have listed in front of him. Both were great, Gehringer was just consistently great over a longer period of time.

Biggio? Maybe just behind Alomar but ahead of Kent. Only reason I rank Alomar higher is I think his gold gloves and his post season impact trumps Biggio's hits and career Hrs. But they are really close.

James goes into elaborate detail on his method in the book. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but I'm not really aware of a perfect method. I am far from an expert on players from the early 1900s, so I'm certainly not going to debate your take on Lajoie vs. the others mentioned. Regardless of the particular order, I suspect the right players are generally grouped at the top of James's list of the top 100 second basemen, so that proves the original point about Biggio.

As for Robinson, I suspect that James and most others who create such rankings give him credit for some type of extrapolation, given he was prevented from playing earlier due to racial discrimination. And I think that is appropriate.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I agree with the bolded. But my response was following up another response to a post saying Biggio is not a HOFer... I think a respected guy like James having strong opinions like these should put that to rest.

As for Gehringer, James had him at #8 in 2003, behind Lajoie and Sandberg in addition to the others I mentioned previously. But the Baseball Page had Gehringer at #5 and Robinson at #6... not sure it's quite the gap you are suggesting here. And I have seen other rankings with Robinson higher than Gehringer.

OMG, I didn't realize James didn't have Lajoie in the top 5 :X Here is my spiel on Lajoie and 2Bman:

Nap Lajoie played in the deadball era as did Collins so their stats compare to modern day players. Nap's career OPS+ was 150! 150 I said! Three times his OPS + was 199 or better which is simply off the charts.

He was facing Rube Wadell, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Chief Bender, and Jack Chesbro. Are you kidding me? Those five could have played in any era. Johnson and Wadell in particular were probably two of the five most talented pitchers to ever play the game (Gibson, Randy Johnson, Christy Mathewson would be my other three).

In 1904 LaJoie hit .376 when the league average was .244. LaJoie was easily the best player in the league that year and it wasn't even close. While players like Joe Morgan had to face the likes of Bob Gibson and Nap had to hit a ball that would fall apart by the 5th inning and play in parks where the fences like at Hilltop Park were 380 feet to right field and 45 of the 47 HRs hit there in 1904 were inside the park HRs. Lajoie had 102 RBIs that year 18 more than the second place guy and only five AL hitters hit over .300 that year. Incredible. And LaJoie had many fine years like that and that is why he was one of the original inductees into the Baseball HOF.

Also do you know what the Cleveland franchise was named? The Naps, after their second baseman. I'm not sure if Cincinnati will ever name their team the "Mumblers" after Joe Morgan but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Nap LaJoie was a better baseball player than Joe Morgan. So was Eddie Collins, and for sure Hornsby who was better than all of them. Hornsby is probably one of the ten best baseball players ever not just one of the best 2Bman. Morgan is not even top 100.

And what's with listing Sandberg? :X

Hornsby>LaJoie>>>Collins>Gehringer>Morgan>Carew>Frankie Frisch>Jackie Robinson>>>>>>>Alomar>>Kent>>>Sandberg

On Gehringer v Robinson:Gehringer played longer, has more hits, Hrs, extra base hits, everything really. Has a slightly better OPS, slightly worse OPS+ but Gehringer was awful his last 500 ABs at age 38 and 39 (Robinson retired at 37). They both had 4 great seasons but Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135 to Robinson's 5. Gehringer had a slightly better fielding percentage and a slightly better range factor although Robinson had the bigger gap from range factor to league average RF for his time. Gehringer had better post season results both in hitting and in team success. Robinson finished 1st in power/speed ration but Gehringer not known for his speed, also did it twice. Gehringer was top ten in runs 12 times, Robinson 7 times.

IMO Robinson is overrated which isn't taking anything away from his contributio to the game. If we had to consider that he'd probably be a top five player ever but we are talking straight skill and career accomplishments here and Gehringer's numbers are just better. Had Robinson played 5 more years he would have probably passed the guys I have listed in front of him. Both were great, Gehringer was just consistently great over a longer period of time.

Biggio? Maybe just behind Alomar but ahead of Kent. Only reason I rank Alomar higher is I think his gold gloves and his post season impact trumps Biggio's hits and career Hrs. But they are really close.

James goes into elaborate detail on his method in the book. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but I'm not really aware of a perfect method. I am far from an expert on players from the early 1900s, so I'm certainly not going to debate your take on Lajoie vs. the others mentioned. Regardless of the particular order, I suspect the right players are generally grouped at the top of James's list of the top 100 second basemen, so that proves the original point about Biggio.

As for Robinson, I suspect that James and most others who create such rankings give him credit for some type of extrapolation, given he was prevented from playing earlier due to racial discrimination. And I think that is appropriate.

It's a good debate though isn't it?

 

[Tau837]

On Gehringer v Robinson:Gehringer played longer, has more hits, Hrs, extra base hits, everything really. Has a slightly better OPS, slightly worse OPS+ but Gehringer was awful his last 500 ABs at age 38 and 39 (Robinson retired at 37). They both had 4 great seasons but Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135 to Robinson's 5. Gehringer had a slightly better fielding percentage and a slightly better range factor although Robinson had the bigger gap from range factor to league average RF for his time. Gehringer had better post season results both in hitting and in team success. Robinson finished 1st in power/speed ration but Gehringer not known for his speed, also did it twice. Gehringer was top ten in runs 12 times, Robinson 7 times. IMO Robinson is overrated which isn't taking anything away from his contributio to the game. If we had to consider that he'd probably be a top five player ever but we are talking straight skill and career accomplishments here and Gehringer's numbers are just better. Had Robinson played 5 more years he would have probably passed the guys I have listed in front of him. Both were great, Gehringer was just consistently great over a longer period of time.

Actually looked up the numbers on these guys. A few comments:1. You say that Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135, which means you are counting a season in which he played 5 games and had 13 plate appearances. Misleading IMO.2. Two of Gehringer's OPS+ seasons higher than 135 occurred before age 28, and 5 after age 28. Robinson wasn't allowed into the majors until age 28, so they both had 5 such seasons in that comparable age span. Meanwhile, Robinson had 3 seasons of 150 or higher, compared to zero for Gehringer.3. Robinson has a higher career OPS+. You attempt to explain this away by saying that Gehringer played poorly in his last two seasons at ages 38-39, while Robinson retired at 37... but you apparently make no allowance for Robinson missing very productive years before age 28 due to discrimination. That seems unfair IMO.4. You mention power/speed ratio, but not the more general topic of baserunning. Robinson was an outstanding baserunner and I assume better than Gehringer.5. You say Gehringer had a better fielding percentage, but actually Robinson had a better fielding percentage and a better differential compared to the league average. Was that a typo on your part or did I miss something?All in all, while admitting that I don't know much about Gehringer, Robinson looks like the better player to me... better hitter, better fielder, and better baserunner. The only reason to credit Gehringer is that he played longer and played a lot more games at 2B. But to credit him for that means not crediting Robinson in any way for the years he was forced to miss, which doesn't seem right.

 

[Eephus]

On Gehringer v Robinson:Gehringer played longer, has more hits, Hrs, extra base hits, everything really. Has a slightly better OPS, slightly worse OPS+ but Gehringer was awful his last 500 ABs at age 38 and 39 (Robinson retired at 37). They both had 4 great seasons but Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135 to Robinson's 5. Gehringer had a slightly better fielding percentage and a slightly better range factor although Robinson had the bigger gap from range factor to league average RF for his time. Gehringer had better post season results both in hitting and in team success. Robinson finished 1st in power/speed ration but Gehringer not known for his speed, also did it twice. Gehringer was top ten in runs 12 times, Robinson 7 times. IMO Robinson is overrated which isn't taking anything away from his contributio to the game. If we had to consider that he'd probably be a top five player ever but we are talking straight skill and career accomplishments here and Gehringer's numbers are just better. Had Robinson played 5 more years he would have probably passed the guys I have listed in front of him. Both were great, Gehringer was just consistently great over a longer period of time.

Actually looked up the numbers on these guys. A few comments:1. You say that Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135, which means you are counting a season in which he played 5 games and had 13 plate appearances. Misleading IMO.2. Two of Gehringer's OPS+ seasons higher than 135 occurred before age 28, and 5 after age 28. Robinson wasn't allowed into the majors until age 28, so they both had 5 such seasons in that comparable age span. Meanwhile, Robinson had 3 seasons of 150 or higher, compared to zero for Gehringer.3. Robinson has a higher career OPS+. You attempt to explain this away by saying that Gehringer played poorly in his last two seasons at ages 38-39, while Robinson retired at 37... but you apparently make no allowance for Robinson missing very productive years before age 28 due to discrimination. That seems unfair IMO.4. You mention power/speed ratio, but not the more general topic of baserunning. Robinson was an outstanding baserunner and I assume better than Gehringer.5. You say Gehringer had a better fielding percentage, but actually Robinson had a better fielding percentage and a better differential compared to the league average. Was that a typo on your part or did I miss something?All in all, while admitting that I don't know much about Gehringer, Robinson looks like the better player to me... better hitter, better fielder, and better baserunner. The only reason to credit Gehringer is that he played longer and played a lot more games at 2B. But to credit him for that means not crediting Robinson in any way for the years he was forced to miss, which doesn't seem right.

Son, you belong in the WIS league

 

[Tau837]

On Gehringer v Robinson:Gehringer played longer, has more hits, Hrs, extra base hits, everything really. Has a slightly better OPS, slightly worse OPS+ but Gehringer was awful his last 500 ABs at age 38 and 39 (Robinson retired at 37). They both had 4 great seasons but Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135 to Robinson's 5. Gehringer had a slightly better fielding percentage and a slightly better range factor although Robinson had the bigger gap from range factor to league average RF for his time. Gehringer had better post season results both in hitting and in team success. Robinson finished 1st in power/speed ration but Gehringer not known for his speed, also did it twice. Gehringer was top ten in runs 12 times, Robinson 7 times. IMO Robinson is overrated which isn't taking anything away from his contributio to the game. If we had to consider that he'd probably be a top five player ever but we are talking straight skill and career accomplishments here and Gehringer's numbers are just better. Had Robinson played 5 more years he would have probably passed the guys I have listed in front of him. Both were great, Gehringer was just consistently great over a longer period of time.

Actually looked up the numbers on these guys. A few comments:1. You say that Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135, which means you are counting a season in which he played 5 games and had 13 plate appearances. Misleading IMO.2. Two of Gehringer's OPS+ seasons higher than 135 occurred before age 28, and 5 after age 28. Robinson wasn't allowed into the majors until age 28, so they both had 5 such seasons in that comparable age span. Meanwhile, Robinson had 3 seasons of 150 or higher, compared to zero for Gehringer.3. Robinson has a higher career OPS+. You attempt to explain this away by saying that Gehringer played poorly in his last two seasons at ages 38-39, while Robinson retired at 37... but you apparently make no allowance for Robinson missing very productive years before age 28 due to discrimination. That seems unfair IMO.4. You mention power/speed ratio, but not the more general topic of baserunning. Robinson was an outstanding baserunner and I assume better than Gehringer.5. You say Gehringer had a better fielding percentage, but actually Robinson had a better fielding percentage and a better differential compared to the league average. Was that a typo on your part or did I miss something?All in all, while admitting that I don't know much about Gehringer, Robinson looks like the better player to me... better hitter, better fielder, and better baserunner. The only reason to credit Gehringer is that he played longer and played a lot more games at 2B. But to credit him for that means not crediting Robinson in any way for the years he was forced to miss, which doesn't seem right.

Son, you belong in the WIS league

 

[guru_007]

You are WAAAAAY underrating positional and fielding considerationsBiggio was an all star at both catcher and second base, and won a silver slugger at both positions as well

One other thing I wanted to note was Biggio's stint at catcher is severely overrated, imo. He was mediocre at best defensively, and his offense suffered. Yes, he won a silver slugger at catcher, but that is a misnomer, as his .257 average, 13 homers and 60 rbi's in his "silver slugger" year speak much more for his lack of competition.And the list of gold glover second basemen is not exactly a who's who of defensive wizards either. Other players that won gold gloves at second during Biggio's career - Jose Lind, Robby Thompson, Bret Boone, Pokey Reese (2x), Fernando Vina (2x)

 

[Eephus]

On Gehringer v Robinson:

Gehringer played longer, has more hits, Hrs, extra base hits, everything really. Has a slightly better OPS, slightly worse OPS+ but Gehringer was awful his last 500 ABs at age 38 and 39 (Robinson retired at 37). They both had 4 great seasons but Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135 to Robinson's 5. Gehringer had a slightly better fielding percentage and a slightly better range factor although Robinson had the bigger gap from range factor to league average RF for his time. Gehringer had better post season results both in hitting and in team success. Robinson finished 1st in power/speed ration but Gehringer not known for his speed, also did it twice. Gehringer was top ten in runs 12 times, Robinson 7 times.

IMO Robinson is overrated which isn't taking anything away from his contributio to the game. If we had to consider that he'd probably be a top five player ever but we are talking straight skill and career accomplishments here and Gehringer's numbers are just better. Had Robinson played 5 more years he would have probably passed the guys I have listed in front of him. Both were great, Gehringer was just consistently great over a longer period of time.

Actually looked up the numbers on these guys. A few comments:1. You say that Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135, which means you are counting a season in which he played 5 games and had 13 plate appearances. Misleading IMO.

2. Two of Gehringer's OPS+ seasons higher than 135 occurred before age 28, and 5 after age 28. Robinson wasn't allowed into the majors until age 28, so they both had 5 such seasons in that comparable age span. Meanwhile, Robinson had 3 seasons of 150 or higher, compared to zero for Gehringer.

3. Robinson has a higher career OPS+. You attempt to explain this away by saying that Gehringer played poorly in his last two seasons at ages 38-39, while Robinson retired at 37... but you apparently make no allowance for Robinson missing very productive years before age 28 due to discrimination. That seems unfair IMO.

4. You mention power/speed ratio, but not the more general topic of baserunning. Robinson was an outstanding baserunner and I assume better than Gehringer.

5. You say Gehringer had a better fielding percentage, but actually Robinson had a better fielding percentage and a better differential compared to the league average. Was that a typo on your part or did I miss something?

All in all, while admitting that I don't know much about Gehringer, Robinson looks like the better player to me... better hitter, better fielder, and better baserunner. The only reason to credit Gehringer is that he played longer and played a lot more games at 2B. But to credit him for that means not crediting Robinson in any way for the years he was forced to miss, which doesn't seem right.

Son, you belong in the WIS league

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=495628

 

[Spartans Rule]

On Gehringer v Robinson:Gehringer played longer, has more hits, Hrs, extra base hits, everything really. Has a slightly better OPS, slightly worse OPS+ but Gehringer was awful his last 500 ABs at age 38 and 39 (Robinson retired at 37). They both had 4 great seasons but Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135 to Robinson's 5. Gehringer had a slightly better fielding percentage and a slightly better range factor although Robinson had the bigger gap from range factor to league average RF for his time. Gehringer had better post season results both in hitting and in team success. Robinson finished 1st in power/speed ration but Gehringer not known for his speed, also did it twice. Gehringer was top ten in runs 12 times, Robinson 7 times. IMO Robinson is overrated which isn't taking anything away from his contribution to the game. If we had to consider that he'd probably be a top five player ever but we are talking straight skill and career accomplishments here and Gehringer's numbers are just better. Had Robinson played 5 more years he would have probably passed the guys I have listed in front of him. Both were great, Gehringer was just consistently great over a longer period of time.

Actually looked up the numbers on these guys. A few comments:1. You say that Gehringer had 7 seasons of OPS+ higher than 135, which means you are counting a season in which he played 5 games and had 13 plate appearances. Misleading IMO.2. Two of Gehringer's OPS+ seasons higher than 135 occurred before age 28, and 5 after age 28. Robinson wasn't allowed into the majors until age 28, so they both had 5 such seasons in that comparable age span. Meanwhile, Robinson had 3 seasons of 150 or higher, compared to zero for Gehringer.3. Robinson has a higher career OPS+. You attempt to explain this away by saying that Gehringer played poorly in his last two seasons at ages 38-39, while Robinson retired at 37... but you apparently make no allowance for Robinson missing very productive years before age 28 due to discrimination. That seems unfair IMO.4. You mention power/speed ratio, but not the more general topic of baserunning. Robinson was an outstanding baserunner and I assume better than Gehringer.5. You say Gehringer had a better fielding percentage, but actually Robinson had a better fielding percentage and a better differential compared to the league average. Was that a typo on your part or did I miss something?All in all, while admitting that I don't know much about Gehringer, Robinson looks like the better player to me... better hitter, better fielder, and better baserunner. The only reason to credit Gehringer is that he played longer and played a lot more games at 2B. But to credit him for that means not crediting Robinson in any way for the years he was forced to miss, which doesn't seem right.

Son, you belong in the WIS league

 

[RC94]

Damon NEEDS 3,000 hits to get the auto-entry because otherwise his numbers don't really stack up.

3,000 hits shouldn't be an auto-entry IMO."Most hits" is one of the most overrated stats in baseball. It's a measure of longevity far more than skill. Over the same number of AB per season, hitting .250 for 12 years will get you as many hits as batting .300 for 10 years.Damon's a .288 lifetime hitter. Not a huge OBP guy or power threat either. Career OPS+ of 105 for an outfielder isn't doing it for me. Pretty good speed but he's not a Henderson or Brock where that's his calling card. Decent defender but not a gold glover. Only 2 All-Star appearances.When you consider all that, I really don't like the idea that he could get a magic bullet into Cooperstown just by hanging on until the bitter end and hitting an arbitary milestone.

None of these 3 deserve to be in the HOF.

 

[Eephus]

Sean Forman of Baseball Reference makes a good case against Pettitte's HoF credentials in the NY Times blogs today