Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2018: Semifinalists (1 Viewer)

[Tau837]

Only person to win as a player, an assistant coach, and a head coach. Definitely a pioneer (though that may be as attributable to Al Davis), overall pretty impressive career, and has been up for induction many times before only to be left behind.

The part about winning a ring with KC is nothing more than the answer to a trivia question. He was traded to the Chiefs midseason and attempted 1 regular season pass; 4 other players on the team attempted more passes. His contribution to the Super Bowl win was as minimal as it gets.

His playing career was okay, but nothing remotely close to HOF caliber - 1 Pro Bowl, overall losing record as a starting QB, some decent stats for the era.

That said, I am surprised he hasn't gotten more notoriety for being the first Hispanic starting QB and first minority head coach to win a Super Bowl. He did that stuff in an era when our society didn't care so much about race/ethnicity, and thus those facts seem to have carried little weight in comparison to others like Dungy and Warren Moon.

Had he not coached the Seahawks for 3 years, his coaching record would look more impressive. I wonder if that would have mattered?

I'm not sure I follow the pioneer comment. I'm not aware of what he pioneered, if anything.

Not to mention continuous snubs of Cliff Branch, Todd Christensen, Lester Hayes, Terry McDaniel, Plunkett, Jack Tatum, and a few other Raider greats.

I don't see any of the players named as being HOF worthy, with the possible exception of Branch.

Branch had a great 3 year stretch, but the rest of his career was average. The problem for Branch is that several WRs who played during Branch's peak stretch are already in the HOF. I could see him making it as a senior nominee at some point.

Christensen had a great 4 year stretch and virtually nothing else. It wasn't Terrell Davis level great, so it's not enough.

The rest of these guys aren't even close.

 

[-OZ-]

As a football player I think TO was as good of a WR as Favre was a QB. Maybe better.

it's arguable. 

But which was better for their teams?

 

[[scooter]]

Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt both deserve to be in, but I understand if Bruce is the only one who makes it.

Owens deserves to be in ahead of all of them but Moss, though.

 

[[scooter]]

Just read his wiki and did realize he won 4 Super Bowls total. I only knew of his 2 as head coach of the Raiders. 

Only person to win as a player, an assistant coach, and a head coach.

Mike Ditka won NFL championships as a player (Cowboys, 1971 season), assistant coach (Cowboys, 1977 season) and head coach (Bears, 1985 season). And unlike Flores, he actually played in the Super Bowl.

edit: you could also add Chuck Noll to the list. He won NFL championships as a player (Browns, 1954 & 55), assistant coach (Colts, 1968), and head coach (Steelers).

edit: George Wilson would also qualify. He won NFL championships as a player (Bears, 4 times in the '40s), assistant coach (Lions, 1952 & '53) and head coach (Lions, 1957).

edit: Joe Stydahar would also qualify. He won NFL championships as a player (Bears, 1940 & '41), assistant coach (Bears, 1963) and head coach (Rams, 1951).

edit: how about the legendary Lou Rymkus? He won NFL championships as a player (Browns, 1950) and assistant coach (Colts, 1970), and also won the AFL champsionship as head coach of the Oilers in 1960.

 

[Tau837]

Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt both deserve to be in, but I understand if Bruce is the only one who makes it.

Owens deserves to be in ahead of all of them but Moss, though.

IMO all of Moss, Owens, Bruce, and Holt will make it, just a matter of time.

 

[Tau837]

Mike Ditka won Super Bowls as a player (Cowboys, 1971 season), assistant coach (Cowboys, 1977 season) and head coach (Bears, 1985 season). And unlike Flores, he actually played in the Super Bowl.

Ditka was also HOF worthy just for his playing career. He was ROY and a 5 time All Pro, and he was named to the NFL's 50th and 75th anniversary teams.

 

[Anarchy99]

Listed by Career AV

Ray Lewis		223
Terrell Owens		165
Randy Moss		161
Kevin Mawae		154
Ronde Barber		151
Brian Urlacher		150
Alan Faneca		148
Brian Dawkins		140
Isaac Bruce		137
Edgerrin James		136
Torry Holt		123
Steve Hutchinson	119
Hines Ward		118
John Lynch		118
Leslie O'Neal		115
Roger Craig		115
Karl Mecklenburg	113
Richard Seymour		113
Ty Law			113
LeRoy Butler		111
Simeon Rice		106
Everson Walls		105
Joe Jacoby		103
Steve Atwater		99
Tony Boselli		71
	
Robert Brazile		91
Jerry Kramer		90

 

[joey]

Call me crazy but I like it when a guy that acts like a jerk doesn't get accolades. 

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Flores was terrible as Seahawks head coach. He inherited a mediocre team and drove it into the ground. Plunkett is not even close to being a Hall of Famer. There are good arguments for Branch and Hayes. 

The part about winning a ring with KC is nothing more than the answer to a trivia question. He was traded to the Chiefs midseason and attempted 1 regular season pass; 4 other players on the team attempted more passes. His contribution to the Super Bowl win was as minimal as it gets.

His playing career was okay, but nothing remotely close to HOF caliber - 1 Pro Bowl, overall losing record as a starting QB, some decent stats for the era.

That said, I am surprised he hasn't gotten more notoriety for being the first Hispanic starting QB and first minority head coach to win a Super Bowl. He did that stuff in an era when our society didn't care so much about race/ethnicity, and thus those facts seem to have carried little weight in comparison to others like Dungy and Warren Moon.

Had he not coached the Seahawks for 3 years, his coaching record would look more impressive. I wonder if that would have mattered?

I'm not sure I follow the pioneer comment. I'm not aware of what he pioneered, if anything.

I don't see any of the players named as being HOF worthy, with the possible exception of Branch.

Branch had a great 3 year stretch, but the rest of his career was average. The problem for Branch is that several WRs who played during Branch's peak stretch are already in the HOF. I could see him making it as a senior nominee at some point.

Christensen had a great 4 year stretch and virtually nothing else. It wasn't Terrell Davis level great, so it's not enough.

The rest of these guys aren't even close.

As for Flores, here is my case (which encapsulates his entire NFL career, not just his playing years, which is apt given his coaching achievements):

• Only two coaches now — Flores and George Seifert — have won two Super Bowls without reaching the Hall of Fame. I believe only Chuck Noll, Bill Belichick, Bill Walsh and Joe Gibbs have more Super Bowl victories than Tom Flores. AFAIK Ditka is the only other coach who has Super Bowl championships as a player, assistant coach and head coach. [ETA: Thanks, @[scooter], for the further research and corrections above on this note].
  
• A true pioneer: First Hispanic starting quarterback in pro football history, the first Hispanic head coach to win a Super Bowl (twice) and the first Hispanic to serve as a club president and general manager. That should absolutely be meaningful, and you can't write the history of the NFL without this kind of contribution.
  
•  5th-leading passer in AFL history and one of only 20 players to have played in the full 10 years of the AFL’s existence
  
• Record 11 TD passes in a two-game span that stood for 51 years, before Ben Roethlisberger broke it in 2014 with 12
  
• First coach to win the Lombardi Trophy with a wild-card playoff entry. 
  
• Playoff winning percentage of .727 ranks second all-time behind Vince Lombardi and his 83 victories with the Raiders are second only to Madden’s 103
  

Cliff Branch:

• Most career postseason receptions in NFL history.
  
• Integral part of all three Raiders Super Bowl teams. He would own the 2nd-most Super Bowl wins among HOF wide receivers – and join Jerry Rice as the only HOF receivers with 3+ Super Bowls and 3+ All-Pros.
  
• Among the game's all-time greats in career receiving categories when he retired – 11th in career receiving yards, 14th in receptions, and 12th in receiving TDs. He's one of only 11 players in the top 75 in career yards who started playing before 1975. Eight are in the HOF.
  
• First-team All-Pro three times. HOF receivers from the 1970s Charlie Joiner, John Stallworth, and Lynn Swann won the honor only once each. Branch would have the 4th-most All-Pro honors among HOF receivers.
  
• When Branch retired, he was the all-time leader in playoff receptions and receiving yards. He currently ranks 3rd and 9th in the two categories. 
  
• When you adjust his totals to account for 14 game seasons and averages of around 170 passing yards per game in his era, his stats far outrank more modern era HOF guys like Cris Carter, Art Monk, Andre Reed.
  

Christensen:

• 5 Pro Bowls, two-time All Pro.
  
• Only tight end to ever lead the Raiders in receiving four-straight seasons. 
  
• Integral part of both Raiders Super Bowl wins in the 80s, one of those (1983) in which he had 1247 yards. 
  
• First TE ever to lead the league in total receptions (Kellen Winslow was first), first TE to ever have two seasons of 90 catches.
  
• Among the 7 Hall of Fame-inducted tight ends of the modern era, Todd Christensen ranks fourth in receptions and yards, fifth in touchdowns, is tied for first in 1,000-yard seasons, and has the most Super Bowl rings of the group. 
  

As for the others? To say that a guy like Hayes isn't even close, well, he's been a finalist for the Hall of Fame in 2004 and a semifinalist in 2010, so that disproves that notion right away, but some other factors:

• 5x Pro Bowl selection, 1x First Team All Pro, 5x Second Team All Pro, DPOTY 1980 (where he had the greatest year ever for an NFL CB).
  
• NFL 1980s All-Decade Team
  
•  Excelled after the implementation of “The Mel Blount Rule” that was used to enhance the passing game and handicap the cornerbacks, adjusting to this man to man style while he converted from an LB to a CB as a rookie.
  
• 13 playoff games and 2 Super Bowls. He was a starting cornerback in 6 playoff games and 2 Super Bowls -- 8 interceptions and 2 touchdowns in these games, showing he could ball when it mattered the most.
  

I'll add in Haynes at this point, as the tandem of Haynes and Hayes is arguably the best cornerback tandem in NFL history. Both of them single-handedly shut down one of the more prolific offenses the NFL has seen on its largest stage, Superbowl XVIII. Going into the game, the Skins scored an NFL record 541 points, averaging a league-leading 33.8 points per game. Theisman was the league’s MVP with for 3,714 yards and 29 TDs. Pro Bowl WR Charlie Brown caught 78 passes for 1,225 yards and 8 touchdowns. HOF WR Art Monk caught 47 passes for 746 yards and 5 touchdowns. John Riggins rushed for 1,347 yards and 24 TDs behind the legendary “Hoggs” OL.

In that game, Art Monk only caught 1 pass for 26 yards...coming in the 4th quarter. Brown had 3 passes for 93 yards -- not shabby yardage, but he didn't get his first catch coming in the 3rd quarter. So for the entire first half, Hayes and Haynes negated any aerial attack the normally gaudy Skins pass offense could muster. They both literally defined what it was to be a shut down corner. 

Let's look at Plunkett --  started as the league's ROY before facing injury, a wishbone offense not suited to his skills (let's face it, he's not a running QB), then to a Niner team who he led to a 6-1 start and ended as their only winning season between 1973-1981. Then the Niners hired Joe Thomas, who fired 3 coaches, released Plunkett, and promptly went 7-23 over the next few years. Plunkett was a bench sitter on Oakland for nearly 3 years behind Stabler and Pastorini, only getting the chance when Pastorinin fractured his leg.

After a poor first game as the backup starter, Plunkett went on to help define what it meant to be a winning QB, and also defined the Raider team's legacy. Plunkett went 9-2, led the first wild-card playoff team to win the Super Bowl -- no small part to Plunkett's long bombs. He showed consistency bringing the Raiders to Super Bowl XV against the Eagles, passing for 261 yards, 3 TDs, and netting Super Bowl MVP and Comeback Player of the Year accolades. Before doing it again three years later against the Skins in Super Bowl XVIII.

There are reasons why Plunkett's stats were not as gaudy as others - a lot having to do with situations out of Plunkett's control. But when he had the team under his helm, he was one of the best to ever play the position. Of the five quarterbacks who started and won two Super Bowls, all have been inducted except for Plunkett.

Again, there are tons of arguments when it comes to whether any given player could or should be in Canton. I know the arguments against these guys as I do the arguments for.

For me, the divisive question about whether a player should be in the Hall or not can come down to this: Was the history of the NFL written in large help by the player in question.

When it comes to guys like Haynes, Hayes, Christensen, and Plunkett, IMHO they are every bit authors of the fabric of NFL lore and legend as their peers who have been inducted already.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

If Owens isn’t the 1st name called the HOF is a travesty. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Owens deserves to be in ahead of all of them but Moss, though.

IMO he’s in over Moss. 

All-time numbers. He’s up there. Owens was a beast. 

For folks questioning his inclusion, I won’t rattle off the stats. Just google “all-time receiving numbers” and it’s self-explanatory. 

He’s a jerk - so he didn’t get in 1st ballot. OK, fine. 

The HOF is not devoid of jerks. Owens is the best player not in the HOF IMO. 

 

[Tau837]

As for Flores, here is my case (which encapsulates his entire NFL career, not just his playing years, which is apt given his coaching achievements):

• Only two coaches now — Flores and George Seifert — have won two Super Bowls without reaching the Hall of Fame. I believe only Chuck Noll, Bill Belichick, Bill Walsh and Joe Gibbs have more Super Bowl victories than Tom Flores. AFAIK Ditka is the only other coach who has Super Bowl championships as a player, assistant coach and head coach. [ETA: Thanks, @[scooter], for the further research and corrections above on this note].
  
• A true pioneer: First Hispanic starting quarterback in pro football history, the first Hispanic head coach to win a Super Bowl (twice) and the first Hispanic to serve as a club president and general manager. That should absolutely be meaningful, and you can't write the history of the NFL without this kind of contribution.
  
•  5th-leading passer in AFL history and one of only 20 players to have played in the full 10 years of the AFL’s existence
  
• Record 11 TD passes in a two-game span that stood for 51 years, before Ben Roethlisberger broke it in 2014 with 12
  
• First coach to win the Lombardi Trophy with a wild-card playoff entry. 
  
• Playoff winning percentage of .727 ranks second all-time behind Vince Lombardi and his 83 victories with the Raiders are second only to Madden’s 103
  

IMO the stuff I struck through has no real bearing on his HOF resume. His resume is essentially based on 3 things:

1. 2 Super Bowl wins
   
2. A very successful 9 season stretch coaching the Raiders
   
3. "First Hispanic" achievements.
   

#1 and #2 are somewhat mitigated by the fact that he took over for Madden, who was 56-16 over the previous 5 seasons, winning a Super Bowl and making it to 3 other AFCCGs.

Those are also both somewhat mitigated by the fact he chose to coach the Seahawks for 3 seasons to a disastrous 14-34 record, taking over for Chuck Knox, who had never finished worse than 7-9 in 9 years as Seattle HC.

So it isn't really a compelling resume.  

Only two coaches now — Flores and George Seifert — have won two Super Bowls without reaching the Hall of Fame

This is untrue. The following coaches have won exactly 2 Super Bowls: Flores, Seifert, Jimmy Johnson, Shanahan, Coughlin. How many of these guys is it reasonable to expect to make it? I would put Flores 4th in that group, ahead of only Seifert. And Coryell won no Super Bowls, but he is more deserving than all of them IMO.

And there are other active coaches with 1 Super Bowl win already who could join that group: Tomlin, Payton, McCarthy, Harbaugh, Carroll. Carroll should already be there. It seems likely that 1 or 2 of these guys will win another one. Does that make him deserving of the HOF? I don't think so.

 

[Tau837]

Cliff Branch:

• Most career postseason receptions in NFL history.
  
• When Branch retired, he was the all-time leader in playoff receptions and receiving yards. He currently ranks 3rd and 9th in the two categories.
  

This is false. Branch is currently #9 in career postseason receptions and #73 in career postseason receiving yards. Contrary to the ranks you claimed, these facts do not really help his HOF case.

Integral part of all three Raiders Super Bowl teams. He would own the 2nd-most Super Bowl wins among HOF wide receivers – and join Jerry Rice as the only HOF receivers with 3+ Super Bowls and 3+ All-Pros.

IMO the first sentence matters, the second does not.

Among the game's all-time greats in career receiving categories when he retired – 11th in career receiving yards, 14th in receptions, and 12th in receiving TDs. He's one of only 11 players in the top 75 in career yards who started playing before 1975. Eight are in the HOF.

This is not compelling. Several of his peers with mostly or wholly overlapping careers were ahead of him. He didn't finish in the top 10 in any category, and, by the time he became HOF eligible, his ranks were 28th, 18th, and 17th, respectively.

It probably didn't help his case that he overlapped careers with Belitnikoff, who ranked ahead of Branch in receptions and receiving yards and was seen as a better WR.

First-team All-Pro three times. HOF receivers from the 1970s Charlie Joiner, John Stallworth, and Lynn Swann won the honor only once each. Branch would have the 4th-most All-Pro honors among HOF receivers.

IMO the second sentence is irrelevant. There were other reasons those guys got in, such that they didn't require multiple All Pros.

His 3 1st team All Pro selections are the strongest part of his case IMO. However, there are others with that many who didn't make it, most notably Sterling Sharpe.

When you adjust his totals to account for 14 game seasons and averages of around 170 passing yards per game in his era, his stats far outrank more modern era HOF guys like Cris Carter, Art Monk, Andre Reed.

Voters don't play these games. What matters is what he achieved in his era, not what he might have achieved in a different era. Besides, if you adjust for Branch, you have to fairly adjust for everyone else in his peer group, leaving him with the same standing.

IMO Branch is a borderline case, and he will need to make it as a senior nominee if at all. His biggest problem is that voters have judged so many of his peers as more HOF worthy: Largent, Lofton, Joiner, Swann, and Stallworth with most direct overlaps, but also others with smaller overlaps in both directions, like Belitnikoff, Warfield, and Monk.

 

[Boston]

As for the Raiders...Flores is a definite no...at no point do I ever remember thinking the Raiders have an edge because Flores was on the sideline...I am in on Branch...he was a legit difference-maker on a lot of good teams...he always had to be accounted for...Christensen just didn’t do It long enough and was not generational enough but I understand him being in the mix...I have zero issues with Hayes making it but don’t feel strongly about it...Plunkett is not close to it...he had a great run with the Raiders but was less than average for a good chunk of his career...

 

[Tau837]

Christensen:

• 5 Pro Bowls, two-time All Pro.
  

Pro Bowls are not very meaningful, but the most compelling thing about his HOF resume is 2 1st team and 2 2nd team All Pro selections.

Only tight end to ever lead the Raiders in receiving four-straight seasons. 

For HOF purposes, NFL records matter, team records don't.

Integral part of both Raiders Super Bowl wins in the 80s, one of those (1983) in which he had 1247 yards. 

How was he integral in 1980? He had 0 receptions. Did he even play at all?

First TE ever to lead the league in total receptions (Kellen Winslow was first), first TE to ever have two seasons of 90 catches.

The first part here is a bit confusing. Both Winslow and Christensen led the league in receptions twice. Winslow was first between them to do it, though I don't really think that matters much.

I also don't think first TE to have 2 seasons of 90 catches is meaningful, given Winslow had 3 seasons with 88 or 89 catches. The difference is meaningless.

Among the 7 Hall of Fame-inducted tight ends of the modern era, Todd Christensen ranks fourth in receptions and yards, fifth in touchdowns, is tied for first in 1,000-yard seasons, and has the most Super Bowl rings of the group.

Among those 7, there are 3 who were essentially used as big WRs, as Christensen was: Sharpe, Winslow, and Newsome. All of them were ahead of Christensen in the receiving categories. The other 4 - Mackey, Ditka, Casper, and Sanders - were used as blockers as well. All 7 of these guys were much better players than Christensen, as were/are Gonzalez, Gates, Gronk, and Witten.

IMO Christensen isn't even borderline. If I thought much about it, I assume I could come up with a number of others who aren't in the HOF but who were better.

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Thanks for the good responses.

And glad none of you are on the selection committee.

 

[BoulderBob]

The stud LBs get in, really wish Urlacher would have played on a team with an offense, as he was a game changer of the highest level. I'd give Moss, Owens, and Barber a call this year as well. 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Rob Rang‏Verified account @RobRang

Congrats to the 15 modern era finalists for Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2018: Tony Boselli, Isaac Bruce, Brian Dawkins, Alan Faneca, Steve Hutchinson, Joe Jacoby, Edgerrin James, Ty Law, Ray Lewis, John Lynch, Kevin Mawae, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Brian Urlacher, Everson Walls

Can't wait to see which 6 of these guys Peter King and crew think are more worthy than Terrell Owens

 

[Anarchy99]

Three former Pats. Moss will get in. I wonder if voters will induct other NE players. For a team that went to and won a bunch of SB's, other than BB and TB not sure how many other guys are options. Gronk will make it if he plays a few more years. If there is an outpouring for special teamers, Vinatieri would get in.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

The 2018 Modern-Era Finalists with their positions, years and teams:

Tony Boselli, Tackle – 1995-2001 Jacksonville Jaguars

Isaac Bruce, Wide Receiver – 1994-2007 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 2008-09 San Francisco 49ers

Brian Dawkins, Safety – 1996-2008 Philadelphia Eagles, 2009-2011 Denver Broncos

Alan Faneca, Guard – 1998-2007 Pittsburgh Steelers, 2008-09 New York Jets, 2010 Arizona Cardinals

Steve Hutchinson, Guard – 2001-05 Seattle Seahawks, 2006-2011 Minnesota Vikings, 2012 Tennessee Titans

Joe Jacoby, Tackle – 1981-1993 Washington Redskins

Edgerrin James, Running Back – 1999-2005 Indianapolis Colts, 2006-08 Arizona Cardinals, 2009 Seattle Seahawks 

Ty Law, Cornerback – 1995-2004 New England Patriots, 2005, 2008 New York Jets, 2006-07 Kansas City Chiefs, 2009 Denver Broncos

Ray Lewis, Linebacker – 1996-2012 Baltimore Ravens

John Lynch, Free Safety – 1993-2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 2004-07 Denver Broncos

Kevin Mawae, Center – 1994-97 Seattle Seahawks, 1998-2005 New York Jets, 2006-09 Tennessee Titans

Randy Moss, Wide Receiver – 1998-2004, 2010 Minnesota Vikings, 2005-06 Oakland Raiders, 2007-2010 New England Patriots, 2010 Tennessee Titans, 2012 San Francisco 49ers

Terrell Owens, Wide Receiver – 1996-2003 San Francisco 49ers, 2004-05 Philadelphia Eagles, 2006-08 Dallas Cowboys, 2009 Buffalo Bills, 2010 Cincinnati Bengals

Brian Urlacher, Linebacker – 2000-2012 Chicago Bears

Everson Walls, Cornerback – 1981-89 Dallas Cowboys, 1990-92 New York Giants, 1992-93 Cleveland Browns

The 15 Modern-Era Finalists join three other finalists to comprise 18 finalists under consideration for the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Class of 2018.

Two Senior Finalists were announced in August 2017 by the Seniors Committee that reviews the qualifications of those players whose careers ended more than 25 years ago.

Robert Brazile, Linebacker – 1975-1984 Houston Oilers

Jerry Kramer, Guard – 1958-1968 Green Bay Packers

One Contributor Finalist, also announced in August, was selected by the Hall of Fame’s Contributor Committee that considers persons, other than players and coaches, who made outstanding contributions to professional football.  

Bobby Beathard, General Manager/Personnel Administrator – 1966-67 Kansas City Chiefs, 1968-1971 Atlanta Falcons, 1972-77 Miami Dolphins, 1978-1988 Washington Redskins, 1990-99 San Diego Chargers

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

Kramer, Beathard, Moss, Law, Dawkins, Owens, Urlacher (or Boselli), Huchinson

 

[AB in DC]

I had forgotten how short a career Boselli had.  I can't see him going in ahead of Mawae or Hutchinson.

 

[flapgreen]

Urlacher in easily 

 

[flapgreen]

The stud LBs get in, really wish Urlacher would have played on a team with an offense, as he was a game changer of the highest level. I'd give Moss, Owens, and Barber a call this year as well. 

Best coverage LB of all-time 

 

[Tau837]

More interesting group than usual this year, and much tougher to choose IMO.

IMO Moss, Lewis, and Kramer are locks. I think Beathard is worthy, but I don't see anything compelling about Brazile. The other 3 spots for the non-senior and non-contributor nominees are a tough call, so I used process of elimination.

I don't think these players are HOF worthy:

• Roger Craig
  
• Joe Jacoby
  
• Edgerrin James
  
• John Lynch
  
• Kevin Mawae
  
• Leslie O'Neal
  
• Simeon Rice
  
• Richard Seymour
  
• Hines Ward
  

IMO these players are worthy but will have to make it as senior candidates, as they just are not likely to ever be one of the top 5 non-senior candidates in a given class:

• Steve Atwater
  
• LeRoy Butler
  
• Karl Mecklenburg
  
• Everson Walls
  

IMO there should be a separation of coaches and players, like there is for contributors. But, since there isn't, no way Jimmy Johnson should make it before Coryell.

IMO these players are borderline may eventually make it, but not in a class this strong:

• Steve Hutchinson
  
• Ty Law
  

Given Moss is a lock, I'm comfortable pushing off the these HOF worthy WRs:

• Isaac Bruce
  
• Torry Holt
  

IMO these players are worthy and are in my next group that just miss the cut:

• Tony Boselli
  
• Alan Faneca
  
• Terrell Owens
  
• Brian Urlacher
  

That leaves me with this class:

• Ronde Barber
  
• Don Coryell
  
• Brian Dawkins
  
• Ray Lewis
  
• Randy Moss
  
• Bobby Beathard - contributor
  
• Jerry Kramer - senior nominee
  

 

Barber and Coryell didn't make the cut (which is a travesty for Coryell), so I have to pick 2 from my next tier. I will double up at WR and LB and go with this class:

• Brian Dawkins
  
• Ray Lewis
  
• Randy Moss
  
• Terrell Owens
  
• Brian Urlacher
  
• Bobby Beathard - contributor
  
• Jerry Kramer - senior nominee
  

 

[Tau837]

I had forgotten how short a career Boselli had.  I can't see him going in ahead of Mawae or Hutchinson.

He is like the Terrell Davis of OTs.

 

[-OZ-]

Locks - Moss, Ray

Should - Dawkins, Barber, urlacher

I'd like to see hutch and faneca make it but probably not this year. 

TO deserves it but I just don't care if he makes it.

Rob Rang‏Verified account @RobRang

Congrats to the 15 modern era finalists for Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2018: Tony Boselli, Isaac Bruce, Brian Dawkins, Alan Faneca, Steve Hutchinson, Joe Jacoby, Edgerrin James, Ty Law, Ray Lewis, John Lynch, Kevin Mawae, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Brian Urlacher, Everson Walls

Would have liked to see Ronde make the cut. 

It shouldn't matter but does Lynch get a slight bump for doing okay as a GM in his first year? 

Edge was great, but I'll admit I overlooked his Hall-worthiness. He only led the league in rushing twice, but 7 years over 1,000 yards rushing; 3 over 2k total yards from scrimmage and 8 over 1k; and he's 13th in career rushing yards, each of the other 13 (of the top 16) other eligible runners are in, so he probably should get in. 

I'd probably keep faneca and hutch out this year, put the bolded plus edge in.

 

[Fariq]

Three former Pats. Moss will get in. I wonder if voters will induct other NE players. For a team that went to and won a bunch of SB's, other than BB and TB not sure how many other guys are options. Gronk will make it if he plays a few more years. If there is an outpouring for special teamers, Vinatieri would get in.

Gronkowski has already done enough. Somebody else can check, but it is possible he has already played more games than Kellen Winslow.

 

[shadyridr]

TO

Moss 

Lewis

Urlacher

Dawkins

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

To me, the locks should be Moss, Owens, and Lewis.  Urlacher and Dawkins are probably next.

 

[Bri]

So we all kinda agree TO should be in?

What big games was he in and how'd he do?

Please don't go to PFR. I'd like to know what you (or anyone) recalls instead

 

[BassNBrew]

What big games was he in and how'd he do?

Please don't go to PFR. I'd like to know what you (or anyone) recalls instead

This alone should get him in...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-nxdzgQH8U

 

[travdogg]

What big games was he in and how'd he do?

Please don't go to PFR. I'd like to know what you (or anyone) recalls instead

That TD catch against the Packers in the 98 playoffs was incredible. I'm not sure any other WR in history makes that catch. Not saying Owens is the best WR ever(obviously) but I think he's the only guy who hangs doesn't drop the ball after the sandwich hit he took.

He also was a monster against New England in the Super Bowl, despite playing on a broken ankle that was maybe 30% healed. He was easily the best player on the field for either team that day. I believe the difference in Philly losing by one score and Philly being shutout was Owens and only Owens. That was basically the Michael Jordan flu game, if Pippen and co. had been completely useless for that game.

The 20-catch game was also amazing, and was a record for years. 

I'm sure I'd come up with a ton more if I thought about it(or used PFR as a refresher) but those all come to mind instantly.

 

[travdogg]

Rob Rang‏Verified account @RobRang

Congrats to the 15 modern era finalists for Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2018: Tony Boselli, Isaac Bruce, Brian Dawkins, Alan Faneca, Steve Hutchinson, Joe Jacoby, Edgerrin James, Ty Law, Ray Lewis, John Lynch, Kevin Mawae, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Brian Urlacher, Everson Walls

Can't wait to see which 6 of these guys Peter King and crew think are more worthy than Terrell Owens

I'd rank the candidates in this order, with the top-6 getting in:

1. Ray Lewis, the best ILB of the last 50 years, and I say that as a Bears fan.

2. Alan Faneca,  4th best guard of the last 40 years in my opinion. Matthews, McDaniel and Allen are all in.

3. Steve Hutchinson, 5th best guard of the last 40 years. This is where I'd have Zach Thomas, but for whatever reason he never makes it this far. Thomas>Urlacher, and again, I say that as a Bears fan.

4. Terrell Owens, most dominant WR of his era. Could win deep, short, over the middle. Best WR after Rice of the last 40 years in my opinion.

5. Brian Dawkins, 3rd best safety of the last 40 years. Lott is in, and Reed isn't eligible yet.

6. Brian Urlacher, certainly deserves it. I have Urlacher 5th among ILB of the last 40 years, behind Lewis, Singletary, Thomas, and Willis, who I really hope doesn't get punished for injuries shortening his career.

7. Randy Moss, deserves to make it at some point. Wasn't as well rounded as Owens and was every bit the headache. 

8. Kevin Mawae, in at some point. 3rd best center of last 40 years. Dawson and Stephenson are both in. 

9. Tony Boselli, probably should make it at some point. Always wonder how great he'd have been if he'd stayed healthy. This is around where Ronde Barber would be for me if he'd made it this far.

10. John Lynch, think he's just short of HOF resume. Was 4th best player on the Bucs defense.

11. Ty Law, just short for Law. 3 rings will help his case, but never felt like a truly elite player. Had some great years though.

12. Joe Jacoby, Hall of very good player. Was 2nd or maybe even 3rd best of the Hogs.

13. Everson Walls, good player, but not even close to HOF worthy. Never an elite player.

14. Edgerrin James, not even close. Was maybe a top-5 RB of the time frame he played in. Often wonder if he was carried by Manning.

15. Isaac Bruce, can't believe he keeps getting this far, but FAR superior players like Zach Thomas and Ronde Barber don't. Bruce was a good WR and that is all. Holt showed up, and was better by the beginning of his 2nd year. Bruce was a compiler and nothing more. The Frank Gore of WR's. At least 15 WR's from 1995-2015 were better. 

 

[Tau837]

Randy Moss, deserves to make it at some point. Wasn't as well rounded as Owens and was every bit the headache

Disagree on Moss vs. Owens. Their numbers are very similar, although IMO Moss had 2 peak seasons (2003 and 2007) better than any season Owens had. More importantly, while Moss was admittedly lazy and had some diva qualities, Owens was a downright disruptive teammate. Moss wasn't known as a bad locker room player; Owens was.

Bruce was a compiler and nothing more

This is a ridiculous statement. A "compiler and nothing more" doesn't do any of the following:

• Play a notable role in one of the greatest offenses of all time
  
• Have one of the few best single WR seasons of all time: 119 receptions (12th highest single season total of all time), 1781 receiving yards (5th highest single season total of all time), and 13 TDs (and with Chris Miller and Mark Rypien at QB)
  
• Have 7 other 1000 yard seasons, including seasons with 1471, 1338, and 1292 yards
  
• Catch the game winning TD with less than 2 minutes remaining in the Super Bowl
  

 

[travdogg]

Disagree on Moss vs. Owens. Their numbers are very similar, although IMO Moss had 2 peak seasons (2003 and 2007) better than any season Owens had. More importantly, while Moss was admittedly lazy and had some diva qualities, Owens was a downright disruptive teammate. Moss wasn't known as a bad locker room player; Owens was.

This is a ridiculous statement. A "compiler and nothing more" doesn't do any of the following:

• Play a notable role in one of the greatest offenses of all time
  
• Have one of the few best single WR seasons of all time: 119 receptions (12th highest single season total of all time), 1781 receiving yards (5th highest single season total of all time), and 13 TDs (and with Chris Miller and Mark Rypien at QB)
  
• Have 7 other 1000 yard seasons, including seasons with 1471, 1338, and 1292 yards
  
• Catch the game winning TD with less than 2 minutes remaining in the Super Bowl
  

Moss was run out of both Minnesota and Oakland, because both teams feared he was a bad influence on their Franchise QB's. Those both turned out to be bad calls by those teams, but that is irrelevant. New England gave him away the second they felt he was no longer an elite player, in large part because they weren't interested in having him in the locker room when he wasn't the focal point of the passing game. Owens called his teammates out in public more, but Moss was hardly a good teammate, and Owens always gave 100%, he worked as hard as anyone on the team all the time. Personally, and maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd rather have a loudmouth jerk as a teammate, then somebody I knew wasn't trying sometimes.

1995 was a weird year for passing. 10 WR's had over 1,300 yards that year. Bruce was arguably the 4th best WR that season. Rice, Carter and Moore(with Scott Mitchell) were arguably all better, clearly in Rice's case. Can make a case for Irvin too, considering how little Dallas threw that year. 

Are Bruce's other qualifications HOF worthy? John Taylor caught a game winning TD with under 2 minutes left in a Super Bowl, so did Santonio Holmes. Reggie Wayne had every bit the yardage success, and also had a notable role in an all-time great offense. Is Reggie Wayne a HOF guy? At no point in his career was Bruce ever an All-Pro, and it really doesn't help his case that Holt was almost instantly better than him, despite Holt being in his 2nd year, and Bruce being smack dab in his prime. 

He's a compiler by definition, his career stats are better than his value ever was. He ranks so high in career numbers, almost entirely because his career lasted so long. He's not alone, Tim Brown was like that a bit too, though Brown was better than Bruce. Meanwhile, a guy like Sterling Sharpe who was a ton better than either of those guys, gets forgotten a bit, because he had a shorter career, so his career numbers don't stand out. 

Compiler doesn't mean bad, just means they had inflated statistics. Every position has those guys. Fran Tarkenton is a compiler, Curtis Martin, Franco Harris, Art Monk, Rickey Jackson. All compilers, who have better career stats, then guys who were clearly better than they were, but had shorter careers. 

I guess my issue with Bruce is that I don't think he was a major difference maker. 

 

[Bri]

Moss was run out of both Minnesota and Oakland, because both teams feared he was a bad influence on their Franchise QB's.




2

And Tennessee. He barely played but was supposed to help their young QB and Britt. Britt would be a bit of a trouble maker during the offseasons. One could easily say Moss wasn't there long enough to impact Britt or the other side where someone "idolizes" another so every thing is "taken" as "gospel."

During the next offseason, he joined a 49ers team loaded with talent and older players like Brandon Jacobs. They had a good veteran group around the youngsters that if Moss were a bad influence, they probably had it covered.

The same offseason, Britt got into trouble. While Munchak wasn't a good head coach, everyone in the NFL knew him and that he was a no nonsense full hustle type guy. One almost didn't have to know what Britt did wrong but if Munchak was unhappy, it was obviously not good.

Early this season, Crabtree was on the radio and he was asked about biggest influences- the host said probably Randy Moss, a guy that played for both franchises, and Crabtree totally ignored the Moss comment. He said Rice, someone else, and "bad moon rising." He was on that San Fran team and also a high pick like Britt. That was hmmm to hear that. I wish I knew more on this.

Moss never did get another deal. 

I don't think it's nothing. HOF voters, coaches, current players, and former players like to read about passing the torch and such. 

While I don't think this or the boat stuff keeps him out of the hall, it's a negative

 

[Bri]

1995 was a weird year for passing. 10 WR's had over 1,300 yards that year. Bruce was arguably the 4th best WR that season. Rice, Carter and Moore(with Scott Mitchell) were arguably all better, clearly in Rice's case. Can make a case for Irvin too, considering how little Dallas threw that year. 




1

119 catches for 1781 yards and 13 TDs (and return yardage not on the web) is a phenomenal season.

5th highest yards in NFL history, 9th in catches

Discrediting greatness or brushing it off is not a "fair" reply in what's essentially a best ever discussion

 

[travdogg]

119 catches for 1781 yards and 13 TDs (and return yardage not on the web) is a phenomenal season.

5th highest yards in NFL history, 9th in catches

Discrediting greatness or brushing it off is not a "fair" reply in what's essentially a best ever discussion

I'm not brushing it off. I'm just saying that was a really strong year for receiving. For as great as Bruce was that year, statistically, Bruce was beaten by different guys in every single one of those categories that season. Bruce's career best season didn't lead the NFL in any receiving category and wasn't enough to make the all-pro, or pro bowl team that year. I think that matters when considering someone for the HOF.

Bruce never topped 90 catches in any other season, he only topped 9 TD's once more, in the magical Warner in 1999 year. 

 

[Slider]

What big games was he in and how'd he do?

Please don't go to PFR. I'd like to know what you (or anyone) recalls instead

I hope you're not serious. The only downside to TO is he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He has zero on the field field questions.

 

[Bri]

I hope you're not serious. The only downside to TO is he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He has zero on the field field questions.

you like went off on a tangent here. I was just asking what people remember is all

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Mike Klis‏Verified account @MikeKlis 9m9 minutes ago

Source familiar with Hall of Fame voting: Brian Dawkins was elected. John Lynch, Boulder’s Tony Boselli will have to wait till next year. #9sports

Booger‏Verified account @ESPNBooger

FollowFollow @ESPNBooger

More

Urlacher Lewis Moss Dawkins TO. Not a bad class if all reports are true

 

[Insein]

DAWK!!!!!!

 

[Insein]

Dawkins, Lewis, Randy and TO

Only missed Urlacher.

 

[-OZ-]

Moss was run out of both Minnesota and Oakland, because both teams feared he was a bad influence on their Franchise QB's. Those both turned out to be bad calls by those teams, but that is irrelevant. New England gave him away the second they felt he was no longer an elite player, in large part because they weren't interested in having him in the locker room when he wasn't the focal point of the passing game. Owens called his teammates out in public more, but Moss was hardly a good teammate, and Owens always gave 100%, he worked as hard as anyone on the team all the time. Personally, and maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd rather have a loudmouth jerk as a teammate, then somebody I knew wasn't trying sometimes.

1995 was a weird year for passing. 10 WR's had over 1,300 yards that year. Bruce was arguably the 4th best WR that season. Rice, Carter and Moore(with Scott Mitchell) were arguably all better, clearly in Rice's case. Can make a case for Irvin too, considering how little Dallas threw that year. 

Are Bruce's other qualifications HOF worthy? John Taylor caught a game winning TD with under 2 minutes left in a Super Bowl, so did Santonio Holmes. Reggie Wayne had every bit the yardage success, and also had a notable role in an all-time great offense. Is Reggie Wayne a HOF guy? At no point in his career was Bruce ever an All-Pro, and it really doesn't help his case that Holt was almost instantly better than him, despite Holt being in his 2nd year, and Bruce being smack dab in his prime. 

He's a compiler by definition, his career stats are better than his value ever was. He ranks so high in career numbers, almost entirely because his career lasted so long. He's not alone, Tim Brown was like that a bit too, though Brown was better than Bruce. Meanwhile, a guy like Sterling Sharpe who was a ton better than either of those guys, gets forgotten a bit, because he had a shorter career, so his career numbers don't stand out. 

Compiler doesn't mean bad, just means they had inflated statistics. Every position has those guys. Fran Tarkenton is a compiler, Curtis Martin, Franco Harris, Art Monk, Rickey Jackson. All compilers, who have better career stats, then guys who were clearly better than they were, but had shorter careers. 

I guess my issue with Bruce is that I don't think he was a major difference maker. 

I won't argue much against your main point, except to ask so what? 

But the bolded, "inflated statistics" is BS IMO.  His stats are not inflated, he was really good for 14 years (2 years not so much). 

But no, he's not a HOFer.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Why the hell do they have a TV show on at 9 when everything is decided and announced before then?

 

[AB in DC]

I would ask that question the other way around.

 

[AB in DC]

I would also ask who the F is this emcee who thinks he's funny

 

[Cjw_55106]

Why the hell do they have a TV show on at 9 when everything is decided and announced before then?

Yeah, pretty irritating that they announced everything early. That said, Riggle had a pretty great opening imo. 

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Yeah, pretty irritating that they announced everything early. That said, Riggle had a pretty great opening imo. 

agree there were some good jokes in there.  just merciless on McAdoo and Davis.