QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (3 Viewers)

[Dr. Octopus]

I think it's highly unlikely this sequence of events played out. If the NFL wanted their testimony and those women were willing then it would have been presented as evidence, as Maurile said. That it wasn't is telling regardless of whether it was one, the other, or both and one reason why I think there's legitimacy to the 'weak case' presented by the NFL report. Is that because there's (relatively) nothing there, the NFL is lazy and going to do what they want anyway (one way or the other), some combination of both, other reason(s?)...I dunno. For outcome purposes I'm not sure it matters.

Well I suppose with the civil cases going on it was tougher to get cooperation.

I’ll admit that I was wrong on a few items that I used to counter your position and your statement probably had more merit than I gave it credit for. 

I don’t really have any bias here other than “knowing” something isn’t right with this situation and DeShaun isn’t a great guy. I don’t root against the Browns normally (no reason to) but I will now (who cares?) - but I’ve said 6-8 games from the beginning and still think that’s what happens and we move on.

 

[Soulfly3]

he needs to play week 1 v baker. it would be a ratings (and topic) bonanza. and i just want/need to see it

 

[TheWinz]

Either a lifetime ban or no suspension at all.
Either he did something terribly wrong, or he didn't.
There is no middle ground here.

I just hope the subscriber contest opens before we know, because he could be under $10

 

[Bracie Smathers]

There is no middle ground here.

Ridiculous. 

 

[TheWinz]

Ridiculous. 

What's so ridiculous about it?  Either he is a serial sexual pervert or he isn't.  Is there such thing as a partial serial sexual pervert?

 

[Soulfly3]

What's so ridiculous about it?  Either he is a serial sexual pervert or he isn't.  Is there such thing as a partial serial sexual pervert?

i think the spectrum is:  incel ----- celibate ------- normal --- pervert ----------- criminal

 

[Gally]

What's so ridiculous about it?  Either he is a serial sexual pervert or he isn't.  Is there such thing as a partial serial sexual pervert?

Can't he be a guy that crossed the line but didn't realize it was crossing the line?   A guy that didn't think what he was doing was anything more than flirting but has now been educated that what he was doing wasn't just flirting and can change his behavior?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Can't he be a guy that crossed the line but didn't realize it was crossing the line?   A guy that didn't think what he was doing was anything more than flirting but has now been educated that what he was doing wasn't just flirting and can change his behavior?

Once you’re closer to triple digits than double digits, probably not, no. Some benefit of the doubt fades at the half-century mark. I don’t make the rules.  

 

[Gally]

Once you’re closer to triple digits than double digits, probably not, no. Some benefit of the doubt fades at the half-century mark. I don’t make the rules.  

Except that all happened before it came out to show him how wrong he was.  We are looking in hindsight knowing all the accusation numbers and it gets overwhelming.  

If he indeed thought he was just flirting and not crossing a line then he would continue until something like this happened slapping him in the face with how wrong his actions were.   Now if this happens again 3 years from now then we can say he didn't learn from this and has a problem for sure (not saying he doesn't have a problem now just that all these incidents were before anything coming out to show him how wrong what he was doing is).  

(total hypothetical what if......I have no idea what Watson thinks or believes....just suggesting a situation where he isn't as bad as the cases make it seem and can stop his behavior)

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Except that all happened before it came out to show him how wrong he was.  We are looking in hindsight knowing all the accusation numbers and it gets overwhelming.  

If he indeed thought he was just flirting and not crossing a line then he would continue until something like this happened slapping him in the face with how wrong his actions were.   Now if this happens again 3 years from now then we can say he didn't learn from this and has a problem for sure (not saying he doesn't have a problem now just that all these incidents were before anything coming out to show him how wrong what he was doing is).  

(total hypothetical what if......I have no idea what Watson thinks or believes....just suggesting a situation where he isn't as bad as the cases make it seem and can stop his behavior)

Entertaining this hypothetical further, IMO Watson’s MO shows intent, or knowledge that he was doing something wrong.

Much like people find a good mechanic and keep bringing their car there, ”normal” people who are seeking pain relief find a masseuse that is effective and stick with that massage professional. 

Watson’s behavior seems both unconventional, and like it’s part of the kink. I find it very difficult to believe that Watson didn’t know what he was doing was wrong.

That said, I hypothesized earlier in this topic that if Watson viewed all massage therapists as prostitutes as his learned behavior, then he may have seen nothing wrong with treating them like prostitutes.

Not quite the same as “thought he was flirting”, but….

That still doesn’t excuse his behavior. It might explain it though.

Personally I think he found a kink he got off on, and then he just kept doing what he got off on. It wouldn’t have satisfied him to keep doing it to the same woman, or one who was willing.  Like rape, it’s not about sexuality but about power. 

That’s the Occam’s razor of it all. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Except that all happened before it came out to show him how wrong he was.  We are looking in hindsight knowing all the accusation numbers and it gets overwhelming.  

If he indeed thought he was just flirting and not crossing a line then he would continue until something like this happened slapping him in the face with how wrong his actions were.   Now if this happens again 3 years from now then we can say he didn't learn from this and has a problem for sure (not saying he doesn't have a problem now just that all these incidents were before anything coming out to show him how wrong what he was doing is).  

(total hypothetical what if......I have no idea what Watson thinks or believes....just suggesting a situation where he isn't as bad as the cases make it seem and can stop his behavior)

Has he admitted that what he did was wrong? 

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Has he admitted that was he did was wrong? 

no.....unless you interpret paying off 20 women to be quiet and go away as somehow admitting he did something wrong....

 

[Gally]

Has he admitted that what he did was wrong? 

There is a difference between Watson admitting what he did was wrong and him coming to the realization that what he was doing shouldn't be done and therefore stopping the behavior going forward.

 

[Gally]

Entertaining this hypothetical further, IMO Watson’s MO shows intent, or knowledge that he was doing something wrong.

Much like people find a good mechanic and keep bringing their car there, ”normal” people who are seeking pain relief find a masseuse that is effective and stick with that massage professional. 

Watson’s behavior seems both unconventional, and like it’s part of the kink. I find it very difficult to believe that Watson didn’t know what he was doing was wrong.

That said, I hypothesized earlier in this topic that if Watson viewed all massage therapists as prostitutes as his learned behavior, then he may have seen nothing wrong with treating them like prostitutes.

Not quite the same as “thought he was flirting”, but….

That still doesn’t excuse his behavior. It might explain it though.

Personally I think he found a kink he got off on, and then he just kept doing what he got off on. It wouldn’t have satisfied him to keep doing it to the same woman, or one who was willing.  Like rape, it’s not about sexuality but about power. 

That’s the Occam’s razor of it all. 

So being a mid 20's male with the mindset of wanting to pursue multiple women for sexual encounters and thinking his "flirting" was just that (as far as I know he didn't rape any victims) and not crossing the line in his opinion, you don't think he could seek out many "partners" to pursue in this way while just thinking he was playing around and not hurting anybody?  In this case I don't think it would be about Watson knowingly doing something wrong.  This could also be the "Occam's razor of it all". 

It is obvious he wasn't seeking out masseuse for professional massage services where you find a good one and stay with them.  This was all about finding women to have sex with.  Now whether or not he thought he was just flirting (and him believing the women having the ability to turn him down) or him knowingly and purposely being a pervert is what the civil complaints are about and for a jury to decide based on the facts and who they believe.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

So being a mid 20's male with the mindset of wanting to pursue multiple women for sexual encounters and thinking his "flirting" was just that (as far as I know he didn't rape any victims) and not crossing the line in his opinion, you don't think he could seek out many "partners" to pursue in this way while just thinking he was playing around and not hurting anybody?  In this case I don't think it would be about Watson knowingly doing something wrong.  This could also be the "Occam's razor of it all". 

It is obvious he wasn't seeking out masseuse for professional massage services where you find a good one and stay with them.  This was all about finding women to have sex with.  Now whether or not he thought he was just flirting (and him believing the women having the ability to turn him down) or him knowingly and purposely being a pervert is what the civil complaints are about and for a jury to decide based on the facts and who they believe.  

Again, once you get past the half-century mark, it’s not “flirting”, it’s a predilection. Plausible deniability goes out the window. 

One goes to a bar to flirt with women.

One goes to a masseuse to get a massage.

One goes to a prostitute to get…things.

One does not go to a masseuse to non-consensually slap their junk on, or ejaculate on them. That’s not flirting, and it strains credibility to suggest otherwise.

ETA: I realize you’re suggesting maybe Watson felt like he was flirting, and you’re not saying you think he was. It’s an important distinction, so I wanted to make it clear. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

There is a difference between Watson admitting what he did was wrong and him coming to the realization that what he was doing shouldn't be done and therefore stopping the behavior going forward.

Yes but you can't come to that realization if you don't believe you've done anything wrong. I have only seen statements where he says that he didn't do anything wrong - so not sure he's had the "moment of clarity" that you are assigning to him. 

 

[ghostguy123]

Has he admitted that what he did was wrong? 

How many times does this need to be said......if he admits he did something wrong right now he probably costs himself dozens of millions of dollars and could easily be more if the NFL banned him partly because he admitted he did certain things.

Such a stupid stance

 

[Gally]

Yes but you can't come to that realization if you don't believe you've done anything wrong. I have only seen statements where he says that he didn't do anything wrong - so not sure he's had the "moment of clarity" that you are assigning to him. 

I am not assigning anything to him.  I am just trying to outline a possible path where he isn't a serial predator as the other side of the coin.  

I have been in situations (nothing like this - in work or other everyday type stuff) where I don't think I am in the wrong but can see the other side of the situation and can adjust without "admitting" I was wrong.   I can see a world where he doesn't think what he did was wrong but understands he shouldn't do it anymore.  

I have no idea what happened as I haven't been presented actual evidence.  This is all hypothetical 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

How many times does this need to be said......if he admits he did something wrong right now he probably costs himself dozens of millions of dollars and could easily be more if the NFL banned him partly because he admitted he did certain things.

Such a stupid stance

Maybe you should learn to read and understand better before you call anything "stupid" - I was responding to a specific point. 

 

[-OZ-]

Again, once you get past the half-century mark, it’s not “flirting”, it’s a predilection. Plausible deniability goes out the window. 

One goes to a bar to flirt with women.

One goes to a masseuse to get a massage.

One goes to a prostitute to get…things.

One does not go to a masseuse to non-consensually slap their junk on, or ejaculate on them. That’s not flirting, and it strains credibility to suggest otherwise.

It’s entirely possible for him to want sex but to pay for a massage, assuming the extra service was the woman wanting to do it with him. 
Not the exact same thing but it reminds me of college in the late 90s. There were plenty of guys sleeping with intoxicated women, assuming it was consensual. Some would encourage a girl to drink too much with the expectation that she’d be drunk enough to have sex. Some would just hang out with the girl and in their view have fun without forcing anything, and have sex with the intoxicated girl. It wasn’t right, generally we learned better and that drunken “consent” isn’t consent. If these guys had been subject to the PCP, should they have been disciplined? I’d say so, even if a GJ didn’t indict. But these guys can (and usually did) learn better and stopped doing that. 

 

[Gally]

Again, once you get past the half-century mark, it’s not “flirting”, it’s a predilection. Plausible deniability goes out the window. 

One goes to a bar to flirt with women.

One goes to a masseuse to get a massage.

One goes to a prostitute to get…things.

One does not go to a masseuse to non-consensually slap their junk on, or ejaculate on them. That’s not flirting, and it strains credibility to suggest otherwise.

So you haven't hit on 50 women?  You and I can agree that his methods isn't flirting and crosses a line.   My only point is if he just thinks he is flirting (I know some of what was considered flirting in the 80's is now considered assault) and now understands that he can't do those things that it doesn't rise to the serial predator level of things (meaning he can stop on his own accord).

(again, I am just speaking in hypotheticals and the other side of the coin.  I have no idea what the truth is because I have seen no evidence as presented to the courts or arbitrators).  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

But these guys can (and usually did) learn better and stopped doing that. 

or switched to roofies & became full-blown sexual predators. One of the 2. 

 

[Gally]

It’s entirely possible for him to want sex but to pay for a massage, assuming the extra service was the woman wanting to do it with him. 
Not the exact same thing but it reminds me of college in the late 90s. There were plenty of guys sleeping with intoxicated women, assuming it was consensual. Some would encourage a girl to drink too much with the expectation that she’d be drunk enough to have sex. Some would just hang out with the girl and in their view have fun without forcing anything, and have sex with the intoxicated girl. It wasn’t right, generally we learned better and that drunken “consent” isn’t consent. If these guys had been subject to the PCP, should they have been disciplined? I’d say so, even if a GJ didn’t indict. But these guys can (and usually did) learn better and stopped doing that. 

Thanks.  This is the point I was trying to make and you did it much better than I did.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

So you haven't hit on 50 women?  You and I can agree that his methods isn't flirting and crosses a line.   My only point is if he just thinks he is flirting (I know some of what was considered flirting in the 80's is now considered assault) and now understands that he can't do those things that it doesn't rise to the serial predator level of things (meaning he can stop on his own accord).

I have indeed hit on more than 50 women. Back in college that was called “a Tuesday”.

but i have not gone to 50+ masseuses, or flown them in, with the intention of hitting on them. 

These are not the same thing at all. 

(again, I am just speaking in hypotheticals and the other side of the coin.  I have no idea what the truth is because I have seen no evidence as presented to the courts or arbitrators).  

Totally understood, thus my post edit above. You’re playing devil’s advocate, and I’m merely debating in-kind. 

it’s an interesting thought experiment to determine if there’s a plausible reason for Watson’s behavior. 

I keep arriving at the conclusion that he’s a serial creep who gets off on doing things he shouldn’t be doing. 

 

[Gally]

I have indeed hit on more than 50 women. Back in college that was called “a Tuesday”.

but i have not gone to 50+ masseuses, or flown them in, with the intention of hitting on them. 

These are not the same thing at all. 

Were you a professional athlete that gets hit on all the time by people trying to get your money in public situations?  Where you might not be comfortable because you are worried about who is around and what their intentions are with respect to your status and money?  Women actually out for a money grab?

I can see a world where a guy like DW wants a more controlled environment to do his flirting and sexual advances where he doesn't want that worry so he goes to a controlled environment like this innocently.   I can see this as being the exact same thing given his notoriety and public fame.   

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Were you a professional athlete that gets hit on all the time by people trying to get your money in public situations?  Where you might not be comfortable because you are worried about who is around and what their intentions are with respect to your status and money?  Women actually out for a money grab?

I can see a world where a guy like DW wants a more controlled environment to do his flirting and sexual advances where he doesn't want that worry so he goes to a controlled environment like this innocently.   I can see this as being the exact same thing given his notoriety and public fame.   

I can see a world where a serial sexual predator engages in the exact same behavior - and it’s a much more likely one. 

 

[brewer]

Were you a professional athlete that gets hit on all the time by people trying to get your money in public situations?  Where you might not be comfortable because you are worried about who is around and what their intentions are with respect to your status and money?  Women actually out for a money grab?

I can see a world where a guy like DW wants a more controlled environment to do his flirting and sexual advances where he doesn't want that worry so he goes to a controlled environment like this innocently.   I can see this as being the exact same thing given his notoriety and public fame.   

You're worried about the intentions of a random person in public, but you solicit girls from Instagram to come to your hotel and trust them all to be 100% legit?  That's a cavernous leap.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

You're worried about the intentions of a random person in public, but you solicit girls from Instagram to come to your hotel and trust them all to be 100% legit?  That's a cavernous leap.

Evel Knievel jumping Snake River level. 

 

[Gally]

You're worried about the intentions of a random person in public, but you solicit girls from Instagram to come to your hotel and trust them all to be 100% legit?  That's a cavernous leap.

It should be more controlled if your people are arranging for the meeting.  Nothing is perfect.  I know HSG is famous for his sauce and close to the level of DW in fame but I was pointing out that super famous people are not the same as joe regulars in their relationships.  

 

[steelcityman]

He should just say he is gay, and therefore nothing happened with those ladies.   That would end it all and he plays all 17 games.   

 

[Godsbrother]

Except that all happened before it came out to show him how wrong he was.  We are looking in hindsight knowing all the accusation numbers and it gets overwhelming.  

DeShaun Watson's response (ala George Costanza): 

"Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started that this sort of thing is frowned upon... you know, cause I've been to a lot of massage therapists, and I tell you, people ejaculate on them all the time."

 

[TheWinz]

So you haven't hit on 50 women?  You and I can agree that his methods isn't flirting and crosses a line.   My only point is if he just thinks he is flirting (I know some of what was considered flirting in the 80's is now considered assault) and now understands that he can't do those things that it doesn't rise to the serial predator level of things (meaning he can stop on his own accord). 

The bolded reminds me of the line in the movie "The Ringer", when Johnny Knoxville's uncle says something like, "you must be nuts if you think she'll go out with out... she thinks you are mentally ######".  If Deshaun thought he was flirting, he is Jeffy Dahmer.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I know HSG is famous for his sauce and close to the level of DW in fame

oh yeah…very extremely close.  

 

[Soulfly3]

@josinaanderson

The thing is, while weighing credibility, the NFL also has to be credible in the application of its own policies too.

tee hee

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

@josinaanderson

The thing is, while weighing credibility, the NFL also has to be credible in the application of its own policies too.

tee hee

Josina likes to hear herself talk, it seems. 

 

[Soulfly3]

Josina likes to hear herself talk, it seems. 

as an intelligent, connected, professional woman, i think we should take some of her comments with a little extra attention in this matter. 

 

[candian fantasy guy]

as an intelligent, connected, professional woman, i think we should take some of her comments with a little extra attention in this matter. 

She works for the Browns? No? 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

as an intelligent, connected, professional woman, i think we should take some of her comments with a little extra attention in this matter. 

I don't care if she's a Chinese transsexual dwarven albino - she has credibility issues. She just ended up with egg on her face over the Mayfield to Seattle nonsense, and I recall she had to apologize for her comments on Myles Garrett. I do not believe she is credible, and I take her comments on this case with huge grains of sand as they aren't sourced, and seem intended to generate clicks. 

Oh yeah, there was also this: 

In 2014, she was heavily criticized for her on-air report about Michael Sam’s showering habits. Sam is the first openly gay player in an NFL training camp and would not take a shower before all his teammates are done. She was then accused by the St. Louis Rams’ coach of unethical and unprofessional conduct. ESPN later issued a public apology.

 

[Soulfly3]

i was referring to myself when i mentioned an intelligent, connected, professional woman

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

i was referring to myself when i mentioned an intelligent, connected, professional woman

 

Damn that misplaced modifier! :shakes fist: 

 

[-OZ-]

i was referring to myself when i mentioned an intelligent, connected, professional woman

One out of four ain’t bad. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

One out of four ain’t bad. 

Is he really connected though? 

 

[-OZ-]

Is he really connected though? 

He’s on FBG!

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Does paying 20 women to be silent and just go away mean anything.....? ...asking for a friend.....

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Does paying 20 women to be silent and just go away mean anything.....? ...asking for a friend.....

Right now, the only thing that matters are how former federal judge Robinson rules and the only thing she is considering are the four cases presented to her as evidence.

In terms of what Robinson is considering, anything that isn't evidence does not matter.

 

[daveR]

Does paying 20 women to be silent and just go away mean anything.....? ...asking for a friend.....

Money is just money, no?  People ask why settle if you're innocent.  Prove your innocence.  Prove that something didn't happen the way someone said.  How?  Equally, it might be asked (for a friend, of course), if justice is the motive, why civil action?  Why no police report?  Why no evidence to the GJ?  Who knows the truth?  Only those involved.  We can only speculate.  Settling is how it works and the money is trivial.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Right now, the only thing that matters are how former federal judge Robinson rules and the only thing she is considering are the four cases presented to her as evidence.

In terms of what Robinson is considering, anything that isn't evidence does not matter.

Well, we’d all like for that to be true. In a perfect world a judge would only view the 4 cases, while sealing their mind off from any other influence. 

But judges are human, and information tends to find them. And in a high profile case, information might well influence their ruling.

Sometimes judges (gasp!) read the news. Sometimes they’ve had personal experience that might influence their ruling. The % of women sexually assaulted at some point in their lives means that either Judge Robinson, or someone she knows has gone through this. 

I’m just saying - the quoted above is how it *should* work. It doesn’t guarantee it’s how it *will* work. Judges have biases too, and not all will recuse themselves. See: Clarance Thomas. 

I have no doubt Judge Robinson is a fine arbitrator, and will do her utmost to issue a fair ruling.

But the quoted is a bit pie in the sky & doesn’t always work in the real world. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

  Why no evidence to the GJ? 
 

sounds like we have a pretty decent idea about the answer to this one from the investigative lead detective.  

Let’s not pretend there isn’t corruption in the TX criminal Justice system. Hell, the AG of TX Ken Paxton was actually indicted on fraud charges 7 years ago & is *still* AG.

Just sayin - while asking those blanket questions, we can probably shake off a little doe-eyed innocence in favor of a healthy dose of cynicism. 

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Well, we’d all like for that to be true. In a perfect world a judge would only view the 4 cases

So now you are questioning a former federal judge's ability to follow procedure?  

 

[TheDirtyWord]

Does paying 20 women to be silent and just go away mean anything.....? ...asking for a friend.....

Not really...like I asked previously (which you didn't answer)...are the Dolphins guilty of racial discrimination because they tried to settle with Flores?  Even though it was revealed later on they were trying to put together a Brady/Payton package?

There are multiple reasons as to why someone in Watson's position would settle as I stated upthread.  Time/hassle/energy/focus/money...ultimately end an ugly episode in ones life.  The question you're asking has been answered several times.  Maybe you (amongst others with their pitchforks) being unwilling to accept that answer is a reason Watson understands that the determination of guilt/innocence has already been rendered in his case relating to the court of pubic opinion.