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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (3 Viewers)

Every case has evidence that is allowable and evidence that is not allowable, not just this case.  All cases are judged by humans, so the job is the same for all cases including this case.
Yes, again - I am aware of that. you keep saying stuff that’s entirely obvious, yet continue to miss the point.  

It’s truly remarkable that you believe judges are computer-brained robots who never stray afoul of their absolutist mandates when in fact it happens all the time.

But it’s a point not worth arguing. One day I’d love to live in your Pollyanna world where no one jaywalks, black folks don’t fear getting pulled over, and judges brush their very teeth by the letter of the law.

Oh what a world that would be. :wub:  

 
Question, have you ever seen or even heard of an NDA for a legal massage?

The Texans must have 'suspected' non-legal massages which indicate they must have at least 'suspected' pay-for-sex activities since they supplied him with NDAs.
I’ve heard of NDA’s for all sorts of activities.  I have an NDA with my kitchen over my recipes, for example.

While it sounds like consciousness of guilt, it could be as simple as “we don’t want your hotel/spa using our celebrity in your marketing material unless by paid endorsement”.

I could see many reasons to have an NDA for a massage therapist.  And if you can afford the $400/hour for your attorney, it makes sense to do it.

(especially if your client is a grade A pervert like Watson :lol:

 
Question, have you ever seen or even heard of an NDA for a legal massage?

The Texans must have 'suspected' non-legal massages which indicate they must have at least 'suspected' pay-for-sex activities since they supplied him with NDAs.
I feel like I’m saying the same thing over and over so I’ll make this my last post on it.

Im a finance lawyer so “no”. 😀 I have done personal injury stuff in the past.

yes - everything you are saying is the basis of the claims against the Texans.

What you keep missing is that there can not be a claim against the Texans unless it was shown that Watson was a bad actor. So while it’s easier to prove the elements of the claim agains the Texans, that doesn’t matter because there is no claim against the Texans without establishing that Watson had exposed himself, etc. So no claim against the Texans without first establishing that Watson was doing something wrong.

In as simple terms as possible:

Supplying a message room and an NDA in and of itself is a perfectly fine act. If the Texans did both of these things 66 times and Watson simply received a message those 66 times, there couldn’t be any claims made against the Texans.
 

Knowingly supplying a message room to a sexual predator and an NDA to cover it up 66 times is an act of negligence. This is the claim against the Texans. This is the claim that the Texans settled.

 
there can not be a claim against the Texans unless it was shown that Watson was a bad actor
Has that been established? 

Two grand juries could not establish that he was a bad actor, yet Busbee filed multiple claims.  

My point is simple.  The Texans must have suspected a simple pay-for-sex scenario which is illegal and why they furnished NDAs.

 
As are all judges so none are capable of doing their jobs?
I’m sure there have been some cases where emotions may have creeped into a judge’s decision before - but for the most part they really aren’t “humans” once they are up there on the bench, they’re more just legal robots. Every decision should be (and usually is) based strictly on the facts (as presented) and the law.

When I was coaching youth soccer my assistant coach was a Family Court judge. Some of the decisions he had to make ate away at him - but ultimately he is sworn to uphold the law, and that’s what judges do.

Im sure Robinson will only be looking at the evidence presented as she should.

I thought at one point there was basically a zero percent chance that he would not be suspended at all - I’m not quite so sure about it now since most of the plaintiffs didn’t seem to cooperate in the NFL’s investigation.

I’ll still stick with 6-8 games for @TheWinz 😉

 
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Has that been established? 
No, because none these civil cases have gone to trial. Watson settled with 20 women and Houston also now settled. The Texans made the decision that settling was the best course of action - read into that what you may.

 
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...The Texans made the decision that settling was the best course of action - read into that what you may.
Pretty sure you nailed it.

Settling a civil claim does not mean that the defendant did anything wrong necessarily - it's not an admission of guilt  - in most cases its a simple "cost/benefit analysis". 

 
Has that been established? 

Two grand juries could not establish that he was a bad actor, yet Busbee filed multiple claims.  

My point is simple.  The Texans must have suspected a simple pay-for-sex scenario which is illegal and why they furnished NDAs.
It would be established at trial - no outside stuff means anything.

 
Well yes - that’s the claim. And yes that’s easy to prove. But first there would need to be a bad act that they were aiding. If not what damages did they cause?

I review NDAs almost every day - none are to cover up illegal activities. 
 

If Watson behaved for the massage and wanted the women to sign an NDA after just because he’s a private person and didn’t want them going public, there would be nothing wrong with that.
I’m on the same train. I get that the Texans might be more likely to settle quick for a variety of reasons. But the numbers of complainants seem odd. 

Question, have you ever seen or even heard of an NDA for a legal massage?

The Texans must have 'suspected' non-legal massages which indicate they must have at least 'suspected' pay-for-sex activities since they supplied him with NDAs.
Purely hypothetical - if Watson had a bad shoulder or chronic lower back issues which the massage helped, he would have reason to get the NDA. He wasn’t being traded at the time so the only doctors he would have seen would be the Texans or his own. Assuming anything that ailed him would be fixed by the time he would be dealt. Of course, that situation would make it all the more likely to only use ONE massage therapist. 🤷

 
Bracie Smathers said:
As are all judges so none are capable of doing their jobs?
well - you need some canned excuse to roll out when she deems his conduct not worthy of any suspension.

HSG getting ahead of the curve 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
Yes, again - I am aware of that. you keep saying stuff that’s entirely obvious, yet continue to miss the point.  

It’s truly remarkable that you believe judges are computer-brained robots who never stray afoul of their absolutist mandates when in fact it happens all the time.

But it’s a point not worth arguing. One day I’d love to live in your Pollyanna world where no one jaywalks, black folks don’t fear getting pulled over, and judges brush their very teeth by the letter of the law.

Oh what a world that would be. :wub:  
so in your world, judges must act like humans and must let their bias impact their decisions.

yet, you are adamant that Robinson will not give a 0 day suspension, possibly influenced because she felt played by the NFL in its quest to get Goodell any suspension, so he could apply HIS discretion.

The NFL has clearly used the media to contaminate public opinion.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I thought at one point there was basically a zero percent chance that he would not be suspended at all - I’m not quite so sure about it now since most of the plaintiffs didn’t seem to cooperate in the NFL’s investigation.

I’ll still stick with 6-8 games for @TheWinz 😉
Any reason IYO why this might be the case?

 
Any reason IYO why this might be the case?
I really don’t know. Maybe because they were involved in the civil litigation and didn’t want to say anything to an investigator that could hurt them in those cases? They weren’t under any obligation with the NFL.

ETA: I also don’t know how many women the NFL even approached.

 
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Has that been established? 

Two grand juries could not establish that he was a bad actor, yet Busbee filed multiple claims.  

My point is simple.  The Texans must have suspected a simple pay-for-sex scenario which is illegal and why they furnished NDAs.
I think this is quite a leap and very difficult to prove.  As many have outlined there are many legitimate reasons to have someone sign an NDA and on the surface wouldn't lead to your conclusion.  Now there may be other reasons (like if Watson gave specifics as to why he wanted the NDA's that showed illegal activity) that could have led to knowledge of the activities but the act itself of providing an NDA is not nefarious.  

 
Fine. Let Watson play things out in court, have him on the field for the entirety of the 2022 season, and then he could serve a 17-game suspension in 2023 instead when the courts uphold the league's ability to suspend him, He can lose $46 million in salary instead of $1 million.

 
If this is the case, I don't see how retroactively applying Watson's suspension isn't part of a settlement which could then result in a fine based on his game check equation from 2021 v 2022.

I mean, Watson seems resolute on zero games...if the NFL is looking to deal, what's the incentive for Watson if the NFL is flashing weakness?
Watson wasn't suspended last season. He did not want to play last season and the Texans were happy to oblige him.

 
Watson wasn't suspended last season. He did not want to play last season and the Texans were happy to oblige him.


Does that matter in the context of a negotiated settlement? 

This way, the NFL could say 'we would have suspended Watson 1 year (or whatever time period that's settled on)'.  Since he did not see the field in 2021, we will apply this suspension to time served last year (along with the salary he would have earned).

While we continue to hear leaks the NFL wants to settle, Watson is saber rattling on suing.  Both parties likely want this to go away.  Texans sure did.  This way, the NFL gets 'their year'...Watson is on the field Game 1.

 
Does that matter in the context of a negotiated settlement? 

This way, the NFL could say 'we would have suspended Watson 1 year (or whatever time period that's settled on)'.  Since he did not see the field in 2021, we will apply this suspension to time served last year (along with the salary he would have earned).

While we continue to hear leaks the NFL wants to settle, Watson is saber rattling on suing.  Both parties likely want this to go away.  Texans sure did.  This way, the NFL gets 'their year'...Watson is on the field Game 1.
I do not see a "retroactive" suspension as a possibility. It doesn't even make sense imo. 

Not to mention that tweet is from some nobody who heard a podcast where Charles Robinson (not sure who that is to be honest) may have talked to "somebody" over the weekend (to which the nobody guesses was DePo) who claims the NFL is worried so they "might want to cut a deal".

I mean - come on. That's hardly even a leak - it's a bunch of hearsay that may or may not have any legitmacy.

 
I do not see a "retroactive" suspension as a possibility. It doesn't even make sense imo. 

Not to mention that tweet is from some nobody who heard a podcast where Charles Robinson (not sure who that is to be honest) may have talked to "somebody" over the weekend (to which the nobody guesses was DePo) who claims the NFL is worried so they "might want to cut a deal".

I mean - come on. That's hardly even a leak - it's a bunch of hearsay that may or may not have any legitmacy.


It's total hearsay.  Robinson is an nfl reporter for Yahoo.

 
I do not see a "retroactive" suspension as a possibility. It doesn't even make sense imo. 

Not to mention that tweet is from some nobody who heard a podcast where Charles Robinson (not sure who that is to be honest) may have talked to "somebody" over the weekend (to which the nobody guesses was DePo) who claims the NFL is worried so they "might want to cut a deal".

I mean - come on. That's hardly even a leak - it's a bunch of hearsay that may or may not have any legitmacy.
If he gets suspended for 2022 games, the contract as the Browns have structured it, means hypothetically speaking say 8 games, he loses less than $500K.

Make the suspension retroactive to all of 2021 - $10M+.

 
If he gets suspended for 2022 games, the contract as the Browns have structured it, means hypothetically speaking say 8 games, he loses less than $500K.

Make the suspension retroactive to all of 2021 - $10M+.
Getting paid at all for last year is a travesty. 

 
If he gets suspended for 2022 games, the contract as the Browns have structured it, means hypothetically speaking say 8 games, he loses less than $500K.

Make the suspension retroactive to all of 2021 - $10M+.
agreed 

suspension will be for time served in 2021,

no suspension going forward

some fine will be applied not to exceed the $10 mil from 2021

likely though to be less, as the deal needs to be done before Robinson issues her 0 game suspension  verdict. 

 
My guess: this is a lot of showboating purely for public consumption and will have no juice once a penalty is handed down.

just more of the “I’m 100% innocent & will never settle“ kind of bluster. It’s a vague threat to the NFL that if they suspend Watson he won’t go away quietly, but it feels like a bluff.

if they do actually sue, it will be the shortest lawsuit in the history of lawsuits. All the NFL needs do is bring in a copy of the NFLPA signed by Watson and it is dismissed immediately - he has no case. 

 
My guess: this is a lot of showboating purely for public consumption and will have no juice once a penalty is handed down.

just more of the “I’m 100% innocent & will never settle“ kind of bluster. It’s a vague threat to the NFL that if they suspend Watson he won’t go away quietly, but it feels like a bluff.

if they do actually sue, it will be the shortest lawsuit in the history of lawsuits. All the NFL needs do is bring in a copy of the NFLPA signed by Watson and it is dismissed immediately - he has no case. 
You mean if Watson claims that the PCP isn't being applied in an even manner when it comes to old white owners/front office executives vs young black QB's.  That narrative that you keep on insisting doesn't exist, but all it takes is a jilted black QB who feels done wrong by the NFL's version of justice to stir the pot of racial discrimination.  I mean, why do you think he would sue.

 
You mean if Watson claims that the PCP isn't being applied in an even manner when it comes to old white owners/front office executives vs young black QB's.  That narrative that you keep on insisting doesn't exist, but all it takes is a jilted black QB who feels done wrong by the NFL's version of justice to stir the pot of racial discrimination.  I mean, why do you think he would sue.
I didn’t claim that narrative didn’t exist.

i stated quite clearly that the Kraft incident with 1 consensual sex worker had nothing in common with Watson’s 60+ cases of alleged non-consensual contact.

And thus, the Watson incidents are not about race just because you’re making false equivalence between those cases. 

Why do you struggle so much to frame that correctly? 
 

ETA: also, no - a bizarre allegation of racism by Watson does not exclude his violations of the PCP, nor does it negate the NFLPA agreement all players play under. 

 
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I’m really turned off that a racial element keeps getting pushed here. I’m generally pretty liberal but race does not belong in this discussion at all - any comparison to Kraft is absurd and I’m not rehashing that. If this was Ryan Fitzpatrick it would be equally as creepy  and any suspension would be equally as deserved (or not deserved If that’s the case.

Im officially done by with the thread. Good luck gents.

 
I’m really turned off that a racial element keeps getting pushed here. I’m generally pretty liberal but race does not belong in this discussion at all - any comparison to Kraft is absurd and I’m not rehashing that. If this was Ryan Fitzpatrick it would be equally as creepy  and any suspension would be equally as deserved (or not deserved If that’s the case.

Im officially done by with the thread. Good luck gents.


Haha I just lost all of my interesting in coming to this thread before reading you say the same thing. It's mind-numbing. I'll check back to watch the ####-show when something actually happens.

 
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I’m really turned off that a racial element keeps getting pushed here. I’m generally pretty liberal but race does not belong in this discussion at all - any comparison to Kraft is absurd and I’m not rehashing that. If this was Ryan Fitzpatrick it would be equally as creepy  and any suspension would be equally as deserved (or not deserved If that’s the case.

Im officially done by with the thread. Good luck gents.
There’s really only one person pushing it. Again, and again, and again. :shrug:  

 
I didn’t claim that narrative didn’t exist.

i stated quite clearly that the Kraft incident with 1 consensual sex worker had nothing in common with Watson’s 60+ cases of alleged non-consensual contact.

And thus, the Watson incidents are not about race just because you’re making false equivalence between those cases. 

Why do you struggle so much to frame that correctly? 
 

ETA: also, no - a bizarre allegation of racism by Watson does not exclude his violations of the PCP, nor does it negate the NFLPA agreement all players play under. 


And yet...no NFL review under the PCP which under the new CBA applies to owners.  That one...just got swept away. The issue about race isn't about the incidents, it's about how the NFL has applied two different sets of rules in applying the PCP...one to Kraft and one to Watson.  Which is essentially why Watson would sue...we know his legal team brought this up as a key pillar of their whole defense and zero suspension reasoning (NFL wise).  How is pointing to that actual fact false equivalence?  Because you'd prefer to ignore race in this instance?  You think. Watson is ignoring that?  Or the African-American community of which 75% thought OJ was innocent?

Reality is reality whether you choose to 'false equivalence' it away or not.

 
And yet...no NFL review under the PCP which under the new CBA applies to owners.  That one...just got swept away. The issue about race isn't about the incidents, it's about how the NFL has applied two different sets of rules in applying the PCP...one to Kraft and one to Watson.  Which is essentially why Watson would sue...we know his legal team brought this up as a key pillar of their whole defense and zero suspension reasoning (NFL wise).  How is pointing to that actual fact false equivalence?  Because you'd prefer to ignore race in this instance?  You think. Watson is ignoring that?  Or the African-American community of which 75% thought OJ was innocent?

Reality is reality whether you choose to 'false equivalence' it away or not.
Explained by one of the following, perhaps more:

1. Kraft is an owner. Yes it applies but hasn’t been used  often

2. consensual relationship vs alleged non consensual 

3. racial

 2 makes the most sense to me, but there may be a reluctance to apply the pcp to a popular owner who otherwise hasn’t been a complete embarrassment to the league. Of course 3 will be pushed by many. Your choice what to believe. 
 

as an aside, if a key pillar of your argument is “this guy shoulda been punished too” that’s a ####ty argument  

 
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Explained by one of the following, perhaps more:

1. Kraft is an owner. Yes it applies but hasn’t been used  often

2. consensual relationship vs alleged non consensual 

3. racial

 2 makes the most sense to me, but there may be a reluctance to apply the pcp to a popular owner who otherwise hasn’t been a complete embarrassment to the league. Of course 3 will be pushed by many. Your choice what to believe. 
 

as an aside, if a key pillar of your argument is “this guy shoulda been punished too” that’s a ####ty argument  
You tell me if you think Watson thinks he's felt racism as a black QB...

...or in this case

or this

If he gets 1+ years?  When the PCP is supposed to be applied to all NFL employees, players and owners alike?  Popular or unpopular?

 
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Of course Watson has a certain perspective. We don’t need to buy into it.  ETA: there’s no denying that racism has been and continues to be a problem. It just isn’t the key factor here. 
You think he'll agree?  Assuming the 1+ suspension?  Also, who is 'we'?

 
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as an aside, if a key pillar of your argument is “this guy shoulda been punished too” that’s a ####ty argument  
of course this is correct. They should *both* be punished for their actions.

Whataboutism doesn’t excuse Watson’s actions. 1 murderer doesn’t get a get out of jail free card because another murderer got away with his. And that’s using an apples to apples comparison. 

Comparing Kraft to Watson is like saying “well the cops didn’t give that jaywalker a ticket, so Ruggs vehicular manslaughter charge should be dismissed! It’s only because Ruggs is black that he’s in jail!”

:rolleyes:  

Comparing Kraft to Watson is obvious false equivalence and it’s absurd that 1 person continues to push that agenda. It was a fallacious argument the 1st time it was offered, and it has become no more effective in the ~37 times it’s been repeated. 

 
of course this is correct. They should *both* be punished for their actions.

Whataboutism doesn’t excuse Watson’s actions. 1 murderer doesn’t get a get out of jail free card because another murderer got away with his. And that’s using an apples to apples comparison. 

Comparing Kraft to Watson is like saying “well the cops didn’t give that jaywalker a ticket, so Ruggs vehicular manslaughter charge should be dismissed! It’s only because Ruggs is black that he’s in jail!”

:rolleyes:  

Comparing Kraft to Watson is obvious false equivalence and it’s absurd that 1 person continues to push that agenda. It was a fallacious argument the 1st time it was offered, and it has become no more effective in the ~37 times it’s been repeated. 


(Kraft) A Florida first degree misdemeanor is an offense punishable by up to one year in jail, a $1000 fine, and twelve months of probation. 

(Watson) Texas Penal Code considers indecent exposure a Class B misdemeanor. The penalty cannot exceed a combination of up to 180 days in jail and/or a fine of $2,000.

Your need to continue to pump up one charge while downplaying another while the laws of each state show the similarity of consequence and consideration of severity for each act proves my point.  Much appreciated.

Make up whatever term you want that makes you feel better...it obviously was a point of contention in the actual hearing.

 
The part that leaves me dumbfounded is some aging white guy blustering through in a powder Blue sports coat thinks he speaks for the African American community.  And that he repeats this claim with no support from a single reader of any color what, Joe/Bud, 66 times?

 
I was just wondering - do you think there is any woman out there, who has not come forward yet, who has a smoking gun, i.e. audio or video clip?

 

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