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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (5 Viewers)
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Ok, the GJ didn’t indict him.
point stands. Still might be a creep worthy of suspension.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
I now have a problem w a suspension of any kind (while still believing he gets 4).
2 separate attempts. No indictments.
What reason does the NFL have to say "well, i know you twice were let slide by the courts, but we're sure ya did something!"
This isnt a Browns thing. This isn't a fantasy thing. This is a life thing. I have issue with someone getting pummeled over and over when the courts themselves aren't making it worth their time to deal with
2 separate attempts. No indictments.
What reason does the NFL have to say "well, i know you twice were let slide by the courts, but we're sure ya did something!"
This isnt a Browns thing. This isn't a fantasy thing. This is a life thing. I have issue with someone getting pummeled over and over when the courts themselves aren't making it worth their time to deal with
Galileo
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
So if more and more women keep coming out, as he says they will, what would be the point of settling any of the current civil cases? Why pay them, just to have more file suit.
Man Watson was a busy guy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
It kind of sickens me that people are using the “well if 2 separate GJs didn’t indict him, he must not have done anything” argument.
The NFL will suspend him if their investigation reveals misconduct.
If that happens, it will be 100% deserved, and 100% unrelated to the grand juries.
And if any of these women win their civil suits, that will only make the suspension look more deserved.
22 women have accused Watson of sexual assault. Lack of evidence (or the DA’s will) to pursue criminally does not dismiss those allegations.
Time will tell if this happens, but grandstanding about Watson’s innocence before we know what the league’s investigation determines, and before these 22 women have their day in civil court is both premature, and somewhat gross.
The sad truth is that people get away sexual assault all the time, and powerful people more so than not. This is in part because it’s often he said/she said, and the standard for evidence in a criminal trial Is high.
I’m all about innocent until proven guilty - Watson hasn’t been cleared yet, IMO. And if the league suspends him, you can be damn sure they have cause to.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
He might be. I’ll stand by prediction the NFL does nothing until after the civil cases are disposed of. It’s a unique situation. Given the stakes of prejudicing either side of 22 active cases, or even (in theory) becoming an active participant in those trials re: “what investigation finding led you to suspend?” the NFL probably doesn’t want to have concluded anything. There’s no public outcry to fend off.
I could be wrong and he’s suspended tomorrow. Wouldn’t be the first time.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Possible. I think it’ll be before the civil suits. The very nature of the contract seems to assume he’ll be suspended this season.
Peak
Footballguy
Curious, if you're all about innocent until proven guilty, what isn't he cleared of yet? Shouldn't he already be cleared until proven guilty?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
The 22 civil cases
the NFL internal investigation.
I mentioned both of those in my post. How is this even a question?
BigJim®
Footballguy
I may have missed this. The contract protection is limited to suspension in 2022 season? Still, he could settle at point if he chooses to.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
No, they just paid him the smallest amount year 1, so if he’s suspended it doesn’t really hurt him.
2022 Salary Cap Charge: $10,028,000 (4.61% of cap)
2022 Cash Payout: $46,000,000 (19.29% of spending)
Almost all of his pay year 1 is in the signing bonus, 100% guaranteed. Just 10m is salary, which is what’s impacted if suspended.
Years 2-5 he’s paid an annual salary of $54,993,000.
That’s what I mean by the nature of the contract assuming suspension. So If he gets hit with a 6-game absence, he loses about 3.5 million and not 18.5 million (if it was any other year of his contract).
there really isn’t any other way to interpret such a specifically scheduled contract. It’s weird, and people smarter than me have called it out as such.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Well, sounds like good motivation to settle before 2023. That cuts both ways though re: NFL acting. Why not wait to suspend if stars are aligned for this to be resolved at some point this season?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Seems like if I’m the Watson/the Browns I want the suspension early rather than late.
Don’t want to be in the middle of a playoff races and then get hit with a suspension between weeks 8-14.
ETA: the NFL has specifically said they won’t rule while Watson was in criminal jeopardy.
But their investigation is entirely unconnected to the civil suits.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
No, I assure you Watson doesn’t want to defend 22 claims explaining why his employer suspended him if he did nothing wrong. That’s what I meant by suspension prejudicing his defense.Seems like if I’m the Watson/the Browns I want the suspension early rather than late.
Don’t want to be in the middle of a playoff races and then get hit with a suspension between weeks 8-14.
ETA: the NFL has specifically said they won’t rule while Watson was in criminal jeopardy.
But their investigation is entirely unconnected to the civil suits.
That one guy
Footballguy
These 2 issues, however, have nothing to do with “innocent until proven guilty”…that’s strictly criminal law. I’m 99% certain double jeopardy does not factor in since he hasn’t been charged/indicted, meaning new evidence in these cases can be found and explored yet again
That said, a jury could absolutely find Watson liable without any criminal charge/conviction and the league can certainly find him in violation of policies without such as well
He gets 6 games in my opinion unless something more comes of criminal cases
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I don’t disagree with any of this. I also think he gets 6 games.
My point was that just because the GJ’s didn’t indict him, doesn’t mean he’s not a creep.
And while the standard for the civil suits is lower than criminal liability, there has to be evidence for him to lose the civil suits.
so he might even be a creep with evidence to prove it.
But yeah - I’m 100% on board with everything you said.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I’m betting he does he best to settle every one of those suits so whatever they have against him never sees the light of day.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Especially given that Goodell seems to handle investigations by determining the outcome he wants and then working backward to come up with a rationale, I think Watson gets suspended to start the 2022 season. The NFL will take a PR hit no matter what the moment he steps on the field, but at least if he's already served his suspension they can pretend that they took it seriously. If he plays in Week 1 with the situation still unresolved, it will be a much worse look for the league.
(Just to be clear, I think this sort of cynical, optics-driven decision-making is appalling. But it's absolutely what I expect Goodell to do.)
(Just to be clear, I think this sort of cynical, optics-driven decision-making is appalling. But it's absolutely what I expect Goodell to do.)
BigJim®
Footballguy
I’d do that in his shoes, particularly if he has contract protection. That may not be possible though if Buzbee is making media rounds about new plaintiffs. I’m not really following the end game strategy for either side. My gut is Buzbee lost a ton of leverage when Watson was traded, richly paid, and not indicted. If Watson was motivated to settle in order for those things to happen, he certainly isn’t now.
Any event, as long as the cases are active, it will be a magic trick for NFL to announce conclusion of an investigation and suspension/no suspension decision without sabotaging either all plaintiffs or Watson’s defense. Or, possibly, receiving a subpoena or deposition demand seeking evidence supporting claims or defense.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
I've never once said, nor implied this. And I assume you're just saying this in general, as Im sure some think that way.
I'm certain he was creepy to AT LEAST some of the accusers. To what degree, I have no idea. Could be as little as creepy to as much as completely inappropriate.
My critisism is of how the whole system works... If the courts (the HIGHEST power in society) passes on something like this, why does it then become the responsibility of the employer to slap Deshaun's wrist? And 4 games? 6 games?
Honestly, what the hell is a 4-6 game suspension? What does that do? What does it change? It's laughable and as relevent as 0 games. It's basically pissing in the women's faces and saying "you're welcome... your lips were on fire".
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Hey Bud, I was wanting to post at you since my Phins traded for Hill, not quite like Watson for you all/Browns but believe me this city is losing their minds right now, feels like 1995 when JJ took over the Dolphins.
Hill for anyone that is unaware, pled guilty to domestic violence on his pregnant girlfriend in 2014, that's a fact and even though he was a college athlete it's inexcusable.
But here we are in 2022 and of course I want to see Miami win, you want to see the Browns succeed and both teams likely will. But when teams take on players like this, certain fans or certain sectors are going to lash out and occasionally use irrational thoughts in assessing the actual production on the field. Just how it goes.
You can't fault anyone who allows their moral compass to supersede their fandom for certain players. I like to typically just focus on the Xs and Os but now fans are encouraged to drag everything off the field into daily discussions.
But as I said to you early on in the Watson trade, happy that you were happy to get him but also reminded you that the Browns were going to be a hated team suddenly vs the underdog role they had carved out for themselves.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Apologies if I misunderstood, but your post pretty specifically implied that.
You made a clear if/then premise.
IF he was not indicted by 2 separate Grand juries
THEN
he does not deserve to be suspended.
Wasn’t that you?
fair
If the NFL finds violations of the PCP, they can suspend him. They’re not the judicial system - they’re a monopoly under the jurisdiction of an all-powerful commissioner.
Dez
Footballguy
CBS #2 worst signing of the offseason
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2022-nfl-free-agency-ranking-and-analyzing-the-five-best-and-five-worst-signings/
QB Deshaun Watson
I'm all for second chances. And we don't know if the former Houston Texans quarterback is guilty of what he's been accused of. When it was reported that Deshaun Watson would not face criminal charges related to sexual assault, it gave teams the proverbial green light to pursue the quarterback. If I was the general manager of a quarterback-needy team, I would have probably inquired as well. However, I would have dropped out if you told me the asking price was three first-round picks, three other picks and that Watson would sign a new, fully guaranteed five-year, $230 million contract.
As CBS Sports cap expert Joel Corry explained in his deep dive of the deal, nobody expected Watson to get this kind of contract considering the sexual assault and misconduct allegations he's still facing. It even looks like the Cleveland Browns adjusted the contract to help him with his looming suspension. Per NFL Media's Ian Rapoport, Watson's base salary for 2022 is just $1 million, which means if/when he's suspended, it will come out of that base.
The Browns are clearly willing to take on whatever PR hit comes with adding Watson, but you have to wonder how will he bounce back? Not just on the field after taking a year off from football, but after working through an issue that tarnished his reputation in the minds of many. This is a gamble until proven otherwise.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2022-nfl-free-agency-ranking-and-analyzing-the-five-best-and-five-worst-signings/
QB Deshaun Watson
I'm all for second chances. And we don't know if the former Houston Texans quarterback is guilty of what he's been accused of. When it was reported that Deshaun Watson would not face criminal charges related to sexual assault, it gave teams the proverbial green light to pursue the quarterback. If I was the general manager of a quarterback-needy team, I would have probably inquired as well. However, I would have dropped out if you told me the asking price was three first-round picks, three other picks and that Watson would sign a new, fully guaranteed five-year, $230 million contract.
As CBS Sports cap expert Joel Corry explained in his deep dive of the deal, nobody expected Watson to get this kind of contract considering the sexual assault and misconduct allegations he's still facing. It even looks like the Cleveland Browns adjusted the contract to help him with his looming suspension. Per NFL Media's Ian Rapoport, Watson's base salary for 2022 is just $1 million, which means if/when he's suspended, it will come out of that base.
The Browns are clearly willing to take on whatever PR hit comes with adding Watson, but you have to wonder how will he bounce back? Not just on the field after taking a year off from football, but after working through an issue that tarnished his reputation in the minds of many. This is a gamble until proven otherwise.
GregR
Footballguy
You have the gist of it but the details are way off.
First the important thing here, is that for non-drug related suspensions, only salary is automatically lost. Signing bonus could also be lost, but the team has to choose to go after it. The Browns won't do that, and possibly even gave him that concession as a contract term. Not sure, but have heard it speculated it's probably in there.
Previously he had a $35m salary for 2022. Each game he got suspended would have cost him 1/17 of that, or a bit over $2m.
Instead they converted nearly $34m to a signing bonus, leaving him just over $1m in salary. So now his suspension would cost him only 1/17 of $1m base salary which is going to be about $60k lost per game instead of $2m lost per game.
The "cap figure" of $10m won't really play a role in it since all but $1m is prorated signing bonus, and the Browns won't try to recoup it.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I copy/pasted from a site detailing his contract so yeah - my bad.
man - it’s even worse than i thought. So basically only $1 is at risk if he gets suspended in 2022.
Well if that isn’t signaling they know it’s coming I don’t know what is.
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GregR
Footballguy
It gets interesting if he ends up suspended in 2023 instead.
He has a $46m base salary then. In that case he'd lose $2.7m per game if the contract isn't adjusted.
The Browns could be willing to do the same thing again and restructure him again to a $1m salary that year, and convert $45m to signing bonus next offseason. But if they did, his cap hits in 2024-26 would jump from $55m to around $66m per year barring additional years added on.
He has a $46m base salary then. In that case he'd lose $2.7m per game if the contract isn't adjusted.
The Browns could be willing to do the same thing again and restructure him again to a $1m salary that year, and convert $45m to signing bonus next offseason. But if they did, his cap hits in 2024-26 would jump from $55m to around $66m per year barring additional years added on.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
It’s Florio, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.
”DESHAUN WATSONQB, CLEVELAND BROWNS
ProFootballTalk's Mike Florio believes Deshaun Watson could land on the commissioner's exempt list.
The league's discipline of Watson could take many forms depending on the outcomes of litigation involving 22 women accusing the Browns QB of sexual assault. One option, Florio said, would involve Watson landing on the exempt list -- which is paid leave, essentially -- and then serving an unpaid suspension thereafter. "So far, the signals from Watson’s camp point to fighting all of the cases and trying to win them," Florio said. "Once they realize that the league may decide to keep him from playing until the legal fight has ended, Watson’s camp may decide to take a different approach." There's a real chance Watson will be suspended at the start of the 2022 NFL regular season. “
It makes sense. It’s also consistent with what the league has said all along.
Now that the criminal case(s) are resolved, it’d be a bad look to let him play with 22 civil suits hanging over him.
Folks in here have suggested that a “slap on the wrist” 6-game suspension would look like tokenism.
Well this sure would shore that up. Exempt and paid his ~$1M salary pending results of the civil suits, then suspended commensurate with how much creepy stuff comes out from the suits.
Maybe he plays 8 games this year? Maybe fewer?
I could totally see this happening.
”DESHAUN WATSONQB, CLEVELAND BROWNS
ProFootballTalk's Mike Florio believes Deshaun Watson could land on the commissioner's exempt list.
The league's discipline of Watson could take many forms depending on the outcomes of litigation involving 22 women accusing the Browns QB of sexual assault. One option, Florio said, would involve Watson landing on the exempt list -- which is paid leave, essentially -- and then serving an unpaid suspension thereafter. "So far, the signals from Watson’s camp point to fighting all of the cases and trying to win them," Florio said. "Once they realize that the league may decide to keep him from playing until the legal fight has ended, Watson’s camp may decide to take a different approach." There's a real chance Watson will be suspended at the start of the 2022 NFL regular season. “
It makes sense. It’s also consistent with what the league has said all along.
Now that the criminal case(s) are resolved, it’d be a bad look to let him play with 22 civil suits hanging over him.
Folks in here have suggested that a “slap on the wrist” 6-game suspension would look like tokenism.
Well this sure would shore that up. Exempt and paid his ~$1M salary pending results of the civil suits, then suspended commensurate with how much creepy stuff comes out from the suits.
Maybe he plays 8 games this year? Maybe fewer?
I could totally see this happening.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Easiest thing for the league to do = no suspension.
Have they ever suspended anyone just because of an outstanding civil case??
The idea of exempt list until the civil cases are settled is silly.
Have they ever suspended anyone just because of an outstanding civil case??
The idea of exempt list until the civil cases are settled is silly.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Get ready for 100 new money grab civil cases towards NFL players if that happens
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Winner winner chicken dinner.
it’s not unprecedented.
And while we’re on it, Zeke & Big Ben were both suspended without criminal charges.
I don’t know if it’ll happen, but 22 accusations + civil suits is also unprecedented.
Such action would definitely be good PR for the NFL to stave off accusations of turning a blind eye to sexual assault.
It’s plausible. I agree it’s unlikely.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
That would take a lot longer for him to see the field...imagine Baker being held captive by Cleveland and expect him to gleefully take the field and start while Watson collects checks. I must be obtuse but I just cannot see it happening.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
IMO they’ll release him before this ever happens. I agree with you that this ain’t it.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
It’s not true though. See above.Always worth repeating, some folks need to be reminded
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I would assume the NFL would take these on a case by case basis. There has to be some level of substance and credibility. There clearly was something here if it went to a grand jury.
GregR
Footballguy
I would assume the Browns and other teams spoke to the NFL about the likelihood of Watson going on the exempt list before making trade offers for him.
Though I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't, given they didn't seem to do any investigation into the allegations themselves. Or the NFL might have not given a clear yes or no answer.
I think it makes absolute sense from a PR standpoint which is of course what the NFL's response is about. They aren't a secondary judicial system tasked with stopping criminal behavior.
Though I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't, given they didn't seem to do any investigation into the allegations themselves. Or the NFL might have not given a clear yes or no answer.
I think it makes absolute sense from a PR standpoint which is of course what the NFL's response is about. They aren't a secondary judicial system tasked with stopping criminal behavior.
all the more reason for the league to wait until the cases are resolved
which is likely to be next year, when a suspension would actually cost Watson money
However, this looks like a highly orchestrated money grab to me, (as actual evidence seems to be pretty flimsy)
which would cause Watson to not settle anything any time soon
on a side note, it would seem that the person to get the most out of these hoped for settlements would be Buzbee, the chief huckster and promoter.
GregR
Footballguy
Glad you repeated it, some folks needed to be reminded.It’s not true though. See above.Always worth repeating, some folks need to be reminded
