mr roboto
Footballguy
Blah blah Tea Party Occupy racist blah blah. You could turn a conversation about field turf and turn it into a soliloquy about one or all of those things.
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Racist rancher,feds at a standoff.Drone strike looming! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter tom22406
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timschochet
Footballguy
But the Tea Party is a big part of this story. I didn't create that. And the Tea Party's defiance against the government tends to be very selective. I didnt invent that either. Are you irritated that I pointed it out?
John Bender
Footballguy
Who's worse? Roman Polanski or a Tea Party Member more that does not molest children?
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Homer J Simpson
I don't push
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
How drunk are you?Joe T said:To me what's not interesting is a case where a government entity comes in and steps on a law abiding man's ability to earn a living and way of life in a debatable overreach of federal government power in defense of a turtle. What's really interesting is the Liberal types who are coming out against the rancher. These people begin with the conviction that the federal government is always right and are eager to rally behind their government even when it might be wrong- so long as its a conservative they are stomping on. They're not going to support conservative government causes like free speech and rights of private citizens- when those cases occur, these same people usually pray for a good government intervention. But when an older white man defies the government and threatens to use guns to defend what he believes in, the liberals come out in droves and hope government will drop daisy cutters on the rebels.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
There's always hypocrisy on both sides. But in the case of the Tea Party it's more pronounced IMO. I actually thin some of the Oxcupy crowd might be sympathetic to this rancher.Joe T said:To me what's not interesting is a case where a government entity comes in and steps on a law abiding man's ability to earn a living and way of life in a debatable overreach of federal government power in defense of a turtle. What's really interesting is the Liberal types who are coming out against the rancher. These people begin with the conviction that the federal government is always right and are eager to rally behind their government even when it might be wrong- so long as its a conservative they are stomping on. They're not going to support conservative government causes like free speech and rights of private citizens- when those cases occur, these same people usually pray for a good government intervention. But when an older white man defies the government and threatens to use guns to defend what he believes in, the liberals come out in droves and hope government will drop daisy cutters on the rebels.
timschochet
Footballguy
Child molesters are far worse, OK? Now will you lay off me already?
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
1.01 Tortoise Molesters
Widbil83
Footballguy
moleculo
Footballguy
I like to think of myself as a pretty conservative guy. I love gun rights, I'm into state rights and all that. I have no love for the BLM or bureaucrats in Washington thinking they know what's best WRT huge tracts of western lands.
I'm also a fan of the law. When I read that this guy has been mooching on federal lands for the past 20 years because he doesn't agree the land should be under federal jurisdiction, despite two court rulings, my sympathy is gone. sorry.
I'm a conservative, not an anarchist. If you don't like the rules, you fight to have them changed, you don't threaten to shoot those who enforce the laws.
I'm also a fan of the law. When I read that this guy has been mooching on federal lands for the past 20 years because he doesn't agree the land should be under federal jurisdiction, despite two court rulings, my sympathy is gone. sorry.
I'm a conservative, not an anarchist. If you don't like the rules, you fight to have them changed, you don't threaten to shoot those who enforce the laws.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
moleculo
Footballguy
It seems his central claim is that the land should be administered by the state of Nevada or his local county, not the Feds. I wonder how he came to that conclusion?
If you follow back far enough, that land was won in the Mexican American war in 1848, right? A war waged by Federal solders, not the state of Nevada. This particular tract was never homesteaded and therefore ownership was never transferred from the federal gov't to any other entity, right? On what basis does he think he has the right to thumb his nose at the feds?
Just because his family has been using it since 1870 doesn't make it his, nor does it entitle him to any special rights. As a South Carolina citizen, I have just as much right to do as I please on that land as he does.
If you follow back far enough, that land was won in the Mexican American war in 1848, right? A war waged by Federal solders, not the state of Nevada. This particular tract was never homesteaded and therefore ownership was never transferred from the federal gov't to any other entity, right? On what basis does he think he has the right to thumb his nose at the feds?
Just because his family has been using it since 1870 doesn't make it his, nor does it entitle him to any special rights. As a South Carolina citizen, I have just as much right to do as I please on that land as he does.
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm certainly not going to bring up immigration as it has nothing to do with this issue. And nobody's stopping you from discussing the merits of the case. I was making a point about the Tea Party; now that point has been made. If you disagree with it, then post why and we'll discuss it if you want. If nobody wants to discuss it that's fine too and we can just move on.Joe T said:I think what would be really interesting is if we somehow managed to actually discuss the case without getting into the normal Tea Party vs LiberalThere's always hypocrisy on both sides. But in the case of the Tea Party it's more pronounced IMO. I actually thin some of the Oxcupy crowd might be sympathetic to this rancher.Joe T said:To me what's not interesting is a case where a government entity comes in and steps on a law abiding man's ability to earn a living and way of life in a debatable overreach of federal government power in defense of a turtle. What's really interesting is the Liberal types who are coming out against the rancher. These people begin with the conviction that the federal government is always right and are eager to rally behind their government even when it might be wrong- so long as its a conservative they are stomping on. They're not going to support conservative government causes like free speech and rights of private citizens- when those cases occur, these same people usually pray for a good government intervention. But when an older white man defies the government and threatens to use guns to defend what he believes in, the liberals come out in droves and hope government will drop daisy cutters on the rebels.
talking points. And I'm really hoping you can somehow refrain from shoehorning in your incessant immigration soap box speech on about page 11 of this thread. I'm just saying we've done this before. We know how it ends. How about we do something different and actually discuss the merits of the case?
sublimeone
Footballguy
I don't think tea partiers are backing this guy like you seem to think. The protests look tiny. I think this is more of a fringe milita type thing.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Rove!
Footballguy
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Rove!
Footballguy
Here's a study from the University of Arizona that suggests that cow overgrazing is good for the tortoises
https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/rangelands/article/viewFile/10776/10049
https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/rangelands/article/viewFile/10776/10049
otello
Footballguy
It is TIm. All topics are either:
1) Evil Tea Party
2) Institutionalized Racism
3) Evil Tea Party AND Institutionalized Racism
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
This situation cries out for the participation of the Westboro Baptist Church, Also, it needs more cowbell.
moleculo
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Shhh you're being tiresome.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Q+A: Behind the Bundy, BLM battle
By Ed Komenda (contact)
Friday, April 11, 2014 | 3:28 p.m.
The complex case of Cliven Bundy raises questions about grazing permits, tortoises and ranchers’ rights.
Here are a few answers:
Q. Who is Cliven Bundy?
A. A 68-year-old renegade rancher, Nevada native, father of 14. A descendant of Mormon settlers. Known to roll his eyes at the government.
Q. What is the Bureau of Land Management?
A.The federal agency that manages federally owned land, most of it in Western states.
Q. How big is Bundy’s ranch?
A. His ranch is about 160 acres in the Gold Butte area, about 75 miles northeast of Las Vegas up Interstate 15. But for two decades, Bundy has also allowed the cattle to roam about 150 square miles of federally owned desert surrounding his ranch. That area is about 10 percent larger than the entire City of Las Vegas.
Q. What is the dispute all about?
A. Bundy has refused to apply for the required permits or pay the monthly grazing fees.
Q. When did tensions boil over?
A. Things came to a head when environmentalists threatened to sue the agency to protect the endangered desert tortoise that lives on the land where Bundy’s cattle grazed. The BLM said Bundy’s cattle trampled the tortoise’s habitat. But officials also say the operation was a last resort. In a statement, the agency said: “In this case, the BLM and the National Park Service have made repeated attempts to resolve the matter with Mr. Bundy administratively and judicially for over 20 years. Mr. Bundy has also failed to comply with multiple court orders to remove his cattle from the federal lands and to end the illegal trespass.”
Q. How much money does Bundy owe the government?
A. Depends who you ask. He’ll tell you that he has refused to pay the BLM grazing fees since 1993, bringing his tab to about $300,000. But the government says he owes $1 million and will have to pay for the some of the round-up costs.
Q. What happens to the seized cattle?
The BLM plans to offer cattle owned by Bundy back to him – but he first has to pay the agency for the cost of the round-up. If Bundy does not pay up, the cattle can be sold at auction. The BLM has also found cattle owned by other ranchers, who will have a chance to reclaim their livestock.
Q. How much will it cost and how many officials are involved?
A. The BLM declined to answer that question, saying they would share more information once the roundup is over.
Q. How many cattle does Bundy own?
A. Bundy told reporters it’s about 500. The BLM has estimated 900.
Q. How long will this go on?
A. The BLM says it will take about a month.
Q. How many ranchers are there in Nevada?
A. The BLM controls three grazing areas in Southern Nevada and about 800 statewide. Nationwide, the BLM doles out 18,000 grazing permits and leases 157 million acres to ranchers.
Q. How rare is a showdown between ranchers and federal agents?
A. Very. Especially large operations like this one. BLM officials say it oversees four livestock impoundments a year, usually involving only a few dozen animals.
By Ed Komenda (contact)
Friday, April 11, 2014 | 3:28 p.m.
The complex case of Cliven Bundy raises questions about grazing permits, tortoises and ranchers’ rights.
Here are a few answers:
Q. Who is Cliven Bundy?
A. A 68-year-old renegade rancher, Nevada native, father of 14. A descendant of Mormon settlers. Known to roll his eyes at the government.
Q. What is the Bureau of Land Management?
A.The federal agency that manages federally owned land, most of it in Western states.
Q. How big is Bundy’s ranch?
A. His ranch is about 160 acres in the Gold Butte area, about 75 miles northeast of Las Vegas up Interstate 15. But for two decades, Bundy has also allowed the cattle to roam about 150 square miles of federally owned desert surrounding his ranch. That area is about 10 percent larger than the entire City of Las Vegas.
Q. What is the dispute all about?
A. Bundy has refused to apply for the required permits or pay the monthly grazing fees.
Q. When did tensions boil over?
A. Things came to a head when environmentalists threatened to sue the agency to protect the endangered desert tortoise that lives on the land where Bundy’s cattle grazed. The BLM said Bundy’s cattle trampled the tortoise’s habitat. But officials also say the operation was a last resort. In a statement, the agency said: “In this case, the BLM and the National Park Service have made repeated attempts to resolve the matter with Mr. Bundy administratively and judicially for over 20 years. Mr. Bundy has also failed to comply with multiple court orders to remove his cattle from the federal lands and to end the illegal trespass.”
Q. How much money does Bundy owe the government?
A. Depends who you ask. He’ll tell you that he has refused to pay the BLM grazing fees since 1993, bringing his tab to about $300,000. But the government says he owes $1 million and will have to pay for the some of the round-up costs.
Q. What happens to the seized cattle?
The BLM plans to offer cattle owned by Bundy back to him – but he first has to pay the agency for the cost of the round-up. If Bundy does not pay up, the cattle can be sold at auction. The BLM has also found cattle owned by other ranchers, who will have a chance to reclaim their livestock.
Q. How much will it cost and how many officials are involved?
A. The BLM declined to answer that question, saying they would share more information once the roundup is over.
Q. How many cattle does Bundy own?
A. Bundy told reporters it’s about 500. The BLM has estimated 900.
Q. How long will this go on?
A. The BLM says it will take about a month.
Q. How many ranchers are there in Nevada?
A. The BLM controls three grazing areas in Southern Nevada and about 800 statewide. Nationwide, the BLM doles out 18,000 grazing permits and leases 157 million acres to ranchers.
Q. How rare is a showdown between ranchers and federal agents?
A. Very. Especially large operations like this one. BLM officials say it oversees four livestock impoundments a year, usually involving only a few dozen animals.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
G
Guest
Guest
I'm not a law guy, but by paying the grazing fees before 1993, wasn't Bundy saying "this is not my land, but I'm paying for the right to use it."? Kind of like a lease?
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
timschochet
Footballguy
Actually, I have never once called Tea Party members racist. For the most part I don't believe they are. What I wrote above does not imply racism; only hypocrisy and a rather selective vision of what freedom is.
Rove!
Footballguy
Rove!
Footballguy
G
Guest
Guest
Years ago my family had free access to fish and hunt at a lake nearby. It's now private with houses all around it.
I think I'm going to start grazing tortoises there.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
I bet it looked like the Normandy landing.
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fatness
Footballguy
It's a 3-page article from 1990 expressing the opinion that desert tortoises need cattle #### to survive.
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The General
Footballguy
That has to be fake.Lutherman2112
Footballguy
And it's not from U of A; Rangelands just happens to be one of several journals hosted by U of A.
The article's writer, Vernon Bostick, retired in 1981 and never worked of U of A.
If we are to believe to protesters, this isn't about the permits, the cattle, or the tortoise, this is about FREEDOM!
