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Rams WR- Austin vs Givens (1 Viewer)

ponchsox

Footballguy
Austin vs Givens, what kind of stats are you looking at with these two? Which one has more upside this year as a potential WR2/3?

 
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bulger2holt

Footballguy
Both are very explosive. Then throw in Cook and Quick. Sam went from no weapons to a plethora of explosive weapons. Only problem is, they will spread the ball around and nobody will be worthy of #1 or #2 status. Cook is the only legit #1. He will be a top 5 TE this year.

 

massraider

Footballguy
These are some interesting guys. Both such questions. I think everyone thinks they are both good, or going to be, but how good? How good will Bradford be?

Is Givens just a good deep threat? has he shown the ability to make intermediate catches?

What I do like about both of them is that they can both help you with one catch. Wish I knew more about that team.

 

steveski

Footballguy
I have Givens on a lot of my rosters this year due to his ADP. He's shown what he can do and I don't see Austin taking away anything from him. If Austin is used correctly and he's able to perform how people believe, he could be worthy of where he's being drafted, but there is just too much unknown for me. Shorts, TY Hilton, and Miles Austin are all going around the same time as Tavon and I'd take them all over him.

 

EBF

Footballguy
I don't have any exact estimates for their numbers, but...

Austin = more catches

Givens = more yards

 

CentralPA

Footballguy
I don't have any exact estimates for their numbers, but...

Austin = more catches

Givens = more yards
TDs?

..i'd probably lean Austin. But Givens will score some long bombs which will be nice in receiving yard TD bonus leagues.

 

silentcoach

Footballguy
Rotoworld

The Post-Dispatch expects Chris Givens to see more targets than Tavon Austin this season.
We suspect Jared Cook will see more targets as well. Austin has the electrifying moves and speed in the open field, but he's concentrating on returns and short passes out of the slot right now. The No. 8 overall pick is a prime candidate to be overdrafted in fantasy circles thanks to his real-life draft status. Austin is unlikely to be a red-zone factor at 5'8/174. Aug 28 - 11:54 AM
 

silentcoach

Footballguy
I think Givens is going to be a good WR3 at worst this season and is a steal at his current ADP.
Yeah, he went pretty high in my league, so some people are onto this. He currently has an ADP of wr 40, which does not scream "huge sleeper." WR 4 territory, so grab him if you want him, but you cannot wait (assuming you still have a draft).

 
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Junior McSpiffy

Footballguy
There is no way to know with Austin. He's being kept under wraps. But with Givens, we've seen what he can do. Long ball... but also some shake in tight space as well as improved route in the mid-range. He really looks like he's putting together a complete package. If I could only have one, I'd take Givens. If I could have both, I'd still only take Givens and just shrug if Austin blows up as well.

 

MattFancy

Footballguy
Definitely like Givens more due to his draft spot. Wouldn't be surprised if Austin outplayed him, but Givens can be had late and could put up equal or better numbers than Austin.

 

zamboni

Footballguy
I like Austin more, especially in PPR leagues. The Rams made a big move to get this guy and will assuredly get the ball in his hands a lot, including some carries (maybe a Harvin lite).

 

chinawildman

Footballguy
Chris Givens is a more complete receiver than most people think... Personally I had both him and Torrey Smith on one of my teams last year and Givens looked like the better receiver. It all comes down to who has the chemistry with Bradford, in the past he's tended to lock onto one guy to bail him out (last year Givens was that guy when amendola was out) and my money is on Givens and not the rookie.

 

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
Rotoworld

The Post-Dispatch expects Chris Givens to see more targets than Tavon Austin this season.

We suspect Jared Cook will see more targets as well. Austin has the electrifying moves and speed in the open field, but he's concentrating on returns and short passes out of the slot right now. The No. 8 overall pick is a prime candidate to be overdrafted in fantasy circles thanks to his real-life draft status. Austin is unlikely to be a red-zone factor at 5'8/174. Aug 28 - 11:54 AM
this quote almost seems like they aren't accounting for the fact that fisher has stated they are keeping austin under wraps... and conflating/extrapolating their purposely stealth use of him in preseason into regular season...

sometimes when people see multiple targets there is assumption that they will neutralize and cancel each other out, as if offenses can only support one receiving weapon... with pinball numbers in modern passing offenses, the pie is much bigger, and dividing up a pie even three ways can yield big numbers... case in point - ATL (which incidentally is where GM snead came from)... white and julio are top 10 or better WRs, gonz top 3 TE...

they are different kind of receiving weapons, but the principle holds that more than one can be valuable... they have different skill sets... all the info coming out of camp was that cook and austin would be movevable chess pieces deployed in multiple capacities...

i'll be shocked if cook doesn't exceed his ADP, and crack top 10, he has top 5 upside or even better...

austin could be like amendola slot WR, only if amendola was like NFL observers mayock and mcshay have been saying for months, one of the quickest humans they have ever seen... just as my contention is to those who say cook will fail because he has before (he had a pretty good 2011 season, and would have done better in 2012 if not for missing three games)... the rams didn't hand him a record breaking contract, to not use him... they have plan for him... same with austin, they didn't trade up from 1.16 to 1.8 and cough up a second (they could have used on much needed guard like warford, who supposedly they might have taken in first if ogletree hadn't been there, or RB like lacy?), to not use him... they will be creative in getting him in space, lots of pre-snap movement, he has very good hands, and on the bonus plan, he has electrifying speed/quickness and open field moves, and will turn some 5-10 yard plays into 40-60 yard plays (just takes one missed tackle or slip)...

maybe givens will be lead WR, but all three will help each other... who do you double team? they will all create space for each other if creatively used by OC... givens has been compared to mike wallace, and can explode past nearly all DBs... he added five pounds in offseason, and is consciously trying to become a more complete WR and diversify his route tree past all go routes... he is another player that can turn a 5-10 yard pass into 40-60 yard TD... as a rookie, he was a few shy of 700 yards on just 42 receptions... if they get the ball to him 60+ times, at similar average (i think he might have been in top 3-5... he broke nearly quarter century NFL rookie record set by olympic caliber hurdler willie gault with 50+ yard reception five weeks in a row), do the math and that gets him to around 1,000 yards...

trying to disabuse people of notion that if givens does well, bad for austin, or if cook does well, bad for givens, or if givens and austin do well, bad for cook, etc...

very possible they all finish in 700-1,000 yard range with 6-8+ TDs...

the other starting WR role, currently held by pettis, imo will be ongoing rotation with quick and bailey, or possibly one of two latter supplants former at some point, but at any rate, not one player for duration of season... they all have different skill sets, bring different things to table, which suggests to me rotation more likely... next year, i expect bailey or quick to pass pettis, if not sooner...

but cook, austin and givens are locked in...

edit/add - for PPR purposes, i've noted it elsewhere, EBF did upthread...

because i expect austin to have more amendola role, expecting more receptions (though not in original question, could be very relevant to this issue, cook could lead both... after thinking about it more, i'd project austin, cook than givens)...

givens could get more yards... but not necessarily if austin breaks some long plays through his elusiveness (scoring production same if givens gets a 60 yd TD on bomb, or if austin gets a 60 yd TD of a bubble screen followed by a weaving open field run)... for that matter, if cook goes off (because if he gets north of 70 catches, with a career 13 YPC average, that projects to 900+ yards), he could end up leading or near top...

* expressed as range, maybe something like this...

cook - top 5-10 TE

givens - top 15-25 WR (probably somewhere in middle)

austin - top 20-30 WR (PPR format could push him to the higher end of the range)

bradford 4,200+ yards (3,700 last year in far more dire circumstances), surprises with 28-32 TDs... much more comfortable with first season as pro returning to same offensive scheme and terminology as previous year, plus jake long acquisition helps elevate his game to another level... ascendant defense will get the ball back to him faster and more often in better field position... austin could be the best punt returner STL has ever had (including az-hakim and past his prime dante hall), but he will certainly be the best they have had in a long time... hard to predict, but he could break a few this season, he wasn't called the most explosive skill position player in the draft for nothing... might emerge as hester, cribbs, peterson level returner...

 
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Raiderfan32904

Footballguy
I think Givens is going to be a good WR3 at worst this season and is a steal at his current ADP.
I agree and love his WR4 pricetag. I think the rookie will flash from time to time, but will be unreliable as Givens. I don't own him...yet, but I'm targeting Givens in my upcoming drafts, as long as his ADP stays cheap.

 

Biabreakable

Footballguy
As Bob already has stated Austin and Givens will not be competing with each other for targets. They play different roles in the offense. Bradford throws a nice deep ball. Even BK was raving about this. :)

Bradford to Given's is a legit deep threat combination that defenses must account for. Cook, Austin and Bailey should be able to take some advantage of that running combination routes that work off of cleared zones due to the defense honoring Givens deep.

Given's will also work quick slant routes as a change up to this at times. He won't be one dimensional. That one dimension is very good however and will help the rest of the receivers get more space. That is where Austin comes in, with Givens and Cook clearing lanes for him underneath.

I think Bailey and Quick will be in the mix as well through rotation by formation. I think the ball will be spread around quite a bit between all 5 of these targets. Richardson/Stacy will have some targets themselves. So I do think this will cap some of the upside potential of all of these receivers, which may not be great for FF but should be great for the Rams.

It is conceivable to me that Bradford could throw for as much as 4400 yards. I am only expecting 3800-4200 yards however due to many of these receivers being inexperienced and taking time to develop. There should be some growing pains here even as I see the offense taking a step forward.

The main question to me is how much the Rams lean on their running game. They have a good defense so they may run more than people think.

 

Frank Black

Footballguy
I had the same dilemma in a recent PPR draft. I drafted Austin near the end of one round and my plan was to draft Givens early the next round. Someone drafted Givens within a pick or two after I drafted Austin.

I wanted to draft Givens more, however I feel like his upside is more limited in PPR so I rolled the dice with Austin because I was comfortable with my first 3 WRs. Sill, I feel like drafting Austin was a complete roll the dice. When a head coach states that he's been keeping a player under wraps, how can we do anything more than speculate about NFL production? I just hope that Austin can stand up to being popped in the NFL.

 
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Goldfinger007

Footballguy
I see the Rams moving Austin around a lot to create mismatches, kinda like the Saints use Sproles and GB used Cobb last year. I see Givens in a completely different role all together. I've heard several people compare Givens to Mike Wallace and i think that's a pretty good comparison. The nasty part of the whole thing is how they could be utilized together. You can't play press coverage, because Givens will burn you deep. You can't back your safeties off, because Austin will feast upon your corpse underneath. And lets not forget about Cook and Daryl Richardson either, which are more than capable of putting even more pressure on your safeties. Pick your poison. Obviously it will all come down on Bradford now to bring it all together, but I don't think a lot of fantasy folks truly understand just how nasty the mismatch possibilities are with this team. They're young, so you want to temper the enthusiasm a bit, but this might just be the next high octane offense to put up some really gaudy numbers.

 

Biabreakable

Footballguy
Here is one of my favorite articles I have read over the past few months (and there has been AMAZING material being published to read this off season) - http://smartfootball.com/offense/why-every-team-should-apply-the-constraint-theory-of-offense

Why Every Team Should Apply the Constraint Theory of OffenseTuesday, 14 June 2011 , by : Chris
What kind of offense should you (or do you) run? A typical responses sounds something like: “I run a system with bubble screens, play action passes, screens, and draws.” This is a nonsensical answer. That’s not an offense; it’s a collection of plays. An offense consists of what are your base runs, base dropback passes, base options, or whatever else are your base, core plays. The other plays I mentioned are not your offense, they are constraints on the defense, or “constraint plays.”

The idea is that you have certain plays that always work on the whiteboard against the defense you hope to see — the pass play that always works against Cover 3, the run play that works against the 4-3 under with out the linebackers cheating inside. Yes, it is what works on paper. But we don’t live in a perfect world: the “constraint” plays are designed to make sure you live in one that is as close as possible to the world you want, the world on the whiteboard.

Constraint plays thus work on defenders who cheat. For example, the safety might get tired of watching you break big runs up the middle, so he begins to cheat up. Now you call play-action and make him pay for his impatience. The outside linebackers cheat in for the same reason; to stop the run. Now you throw the bubble screen, run the bootleg passes to the flat, and make them pay for their impatience. Now the defensive ends begin rushing hard upfield; you trap, draw, and screen them to make them pay for getting out of position. If that defensive end played honest your tackle could block him; if he flies upfield he cannot. Constraint plays make them get back to basics. Once they get back to playing honest football, you go back to the whiteboard and beat them with your bread and butter.

In a given game your offense might look like it is all “constraint” plays: all gimmicks, screens, traps, draws, fakes and the like. Maybe so, if that’s what the defense deserves. But you can’t lose sight of the structure of your offense. Just because the bubbles, the flares, the fakes, and other gimmicks are your best offense for a couple of weeks doesn’t mean that it will be there. Indeed, the best defense against that kind of stuff is simply a sound one. Thus great offenses must be structure around sound, time tested core ideas, but have the flexibility to go to the “constraint plays” whenever the opportunity exists. Too often, the constraint plays are alternatively given too much and not enough weight. But they nevertheless are what make an offense go.


If you’re a dropback pass team — think of the Airraid guys — you need constraint plays that counteract defenses that cheat for the passes. If you’re a great run team, you need constraints that attack safeties and linebackers who all cheat by formation and post-snap effort to stop your run game.

You must have the counters, the screens, the bootlegs, and the quick passes, which work best when the defense gives you the structure. All this comports well with a game theory approach to football.

Indeed, these constraint plays are most important against the best teams because those teams put the biggest premium on taking away what you hang your hat on. (But be wary of constraint plays against very talented teams — they may be stuffing your core offense not because they are cheating, but instead because they are better than you; the constraint plays then play into their hands.)

The upshot is that a good offense must: (a) find those one or two things on which it will hang its hat on to beat any “honest” defense — think of core pass plays, options, and so on, but also (b) get good at all those little “constraint” plays which keep the defense playing honest. You won’t win any championships simply throwing the bubble screen, but the bubble will help keep you from losing games when the defense wants to crush your run game. Same goes for draws and screens if you’re a passing team. You find ways to do what you want and put your players in position to win and score.

Designing an offense is all about structure. Constraint plays, like the bubble, work when the defense gives you the play by their structure; same for play-action passes over the top. When I say these are defensive cheats, I mean they aren’t the base, whiteboard defenses you expect, because defenses — both players and coaches — adjust to take away what you do well. But you want to go to your core stuff, so you build your offense off of that, and each constraint play forces the defense back in line, right where you want them. That’s the beauty of football: punch, counterpunch.

- See more at: http://smartfootball.com/offense/why-every-team-should-apply-the-constraint-theory-of-offense#sthash.F0PEYzMU.dpuf
This is what Austin brings to the team is keeping them honest. This will help all of the other players including the running game just like having Percy Harvin made it difficult for teams to totally commit to stopping Peterson last season.

Richardson is like another WR on the field and can be used interchangeably with Austin. In a sense this creates a 2RB set with one of the RB lined up on the perimeter.

With Stacy on the field they can use Austin as a runner with Zac lead blocking for him. Or with Kendricks out of 2TE formations. It is going to be a lot of fun to watch.

 

bulger2holt

Footballguy
RBM said:
Man I love Bradford this year.
Same here. Lots of weapons and he looks great so far too. Looks very poised and very confident. Throwing the ball great

 
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Tool

Footballguy
Givens is turning into a bust. Was on a lot of people's sleeper lists and unfortunately ended up on a lot of my teams. :bag:

 

MattFancy

Footballguy
Yup I think I'm going to be moving on from Givens after this week. I was for sure he would have a good game against the lowly Jags. But the Rams offense as a whole just doesn't look right. Going to be dropping him for Harvin in one league.

 

solorca

Footballguy
He was dropped in one of my leagues last week and I grabbed him. As much as I think he's a talented receiver, I just don't see enough week to week value to make him worth hanging on to.

He'll definitely end up with a few more 100+ yard games, and possibly even a couple touchdowns in a game...but trying to figure out when he'll produce is going to be tough. It's sad, because the targets are there...but he's basically Devery Henderson at this point.

 

Biabreakable

Footballguy
I completely wiffed on Pettis being as much of a factor as he has been thus far. Experience helps.

Kendricks as well who I thought would be more of the blocking TE with Cook on the team taking more of his targets. Kendricks has been both.

 

steveski

Footballguy
I have Givens on a lot of my rosters this year due to his ADP. He's shown what he can do and I don't see Austin taking away anything from him. If Austin is used correctly and he's able to perform how people believe, he could be worthy of where he's being drafted, but there is just too much unknown for me. Shorts, TY Hilton, and Miles Austin are all going around the same time as Tavon and I'd take them all over him.
Well at least I knew enough to pass on Austin. Needless to say, Givens is no longer on a lot of my rosters this year.

 

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