Ran a 10k in June (8 Viewers)

[worrierking]

Great races Fubar and Grue. I really enjoy reading these reports. Well-done.

The_Man, good luck to The_Son in his upcoming meets! Sub 19:00 is smoking.

ChiefD, nice race! Hope you stick around. Lot's of great advice here.

I am back to regular training now after the marathon and the cold. I should top 50 mpw through the end of November, probably close to 60. I am trying to figure out exactly what to do as far as adding more speed now that it is cooler. I want to focus on a December half while continuing to train at marathon mileage for Houston in January. Any suggestions for half training?

 

[Ned]

Great races Fubar and Grue. I really enjoy reading these reports. Well-done.

The_Man, good luck to The_Son in his upcoming meets! Sub 19:00 is smoking.

ChiefD, nice race! Hope you stick around. Lot's of great advice here.

I am back to regular training now after the marathon and the cold. I should top 50 mpw through the end of November, probably close to 60. I am trying to figure out exactly what to do as far as adding more speed now that it is cooler. I want to focus on a December half while continuing to train at marathon mileage for Houston in January. Any suggestions for half training?

I'd keep the mileage high (50s) and make sure to get a good dose of tempo work. I'm a big fan of the Pfitz style 8/4 thru 11/7 workouts. Pretty sure you know those...

As you get closer to within 6-7 weeks of the race, I'd mix in some 400/800 intervals.

One tempo or interval session per week should do. I think 3 weeks on, 1 week off from tempo/intervals is a good framework. Everything else should be MLR/LR/Recovery type running. I'd probably top out at 17mi LR.

 

[BassNBrew]

It's funny looking at the post-race results list and how my perception might be different than reality, at least for this race.

I placed 172 out of 624 listed (so, top 30%). But the participants list had the total at 1329. Maybe 700 people just didn't show up? Seems weird that it would be that many, but there were many empty bike spots. My coral of 6 only had 3 bikes in it.

Swim - which I thought would be my worst event, especially with the cramps; I placed 153.

Bike - my split isn't listed, but according to my watch, I would have been ~197. Had thought this to be my best event, but the first 20 miles were slow for me.

Run - has me at 137. So rather easily my best event. Not too surprised by this.

So, in a way it's what I thought it was - places of 172 total, 153/197/137; I'm pretty consistent. Nothing great but no glaringly bad performance area. Maybe I'm just wrong about my bike being my strength, or maybe I just was more affected by the weather than others. Or maybe I just took it too easy at first, lacking the confidence experience would bring? If I had started closer to my final pace, I would have ranked somewhere between 100-140. Too bad we can't see how others paced throughout.

Anyway... it's just interesting to look at.

Not to be too hard on you, but given your fitness, you should be north of 20mph on the bike for the 1/2 distance on that course. That said, if you err in the other direction, you'll lose everything back and then some on the run. You can tell by how much closer you total finish is to your bike finish where the work needs to go. Didn't you say you were wearing sweat pants on the bike?

Regardless, that's an impressive placement, especially when the hardcore guys probably raced and the newbies sat out due to the cold.

I think you're right. I wasn't as confident coming out of the swim as I probably should have been. I told myself I'd just get going for the first 10 miles, which is what I did. I should have pushed harder earlier.

I wore windpants on the bike, given the temperature and that my tri-suit was wet, figured I'd be better off. Not sure if that was the right call, but I wasn't overly hot on the ride.

Not sure what you mean by "You can tell by how much closer you total finish is to your bike finish where the work needs to go." aside from do speed work on the bike.

197 - 172 = 25 places

172 - 153 = 19 places

172 - 137 = 35 places

You had two events with placements significantly better than your overall place. Swim was 34 positions better than the bike, run was 60 places better than the bike. Those two events only move the overall needle 25 places lower than your bike. Basically shows you that you'll get the most bang for you buck improving your bike.

When you say wind pants, I'm thinking closer to sweat pants than tights. If that's the case, towing along a parachute would probably add 10 minutes to your bike time.

 

[2Young2BBald]

No states for my boy, but he had an incredible end to his XC season yesterday. He ran a 17:27; good for 3rd on his team and 35th out of 119 runners. Unfortunately, the normally soft region was not this year. His team's top 5 all ran under 18, but it was only good enough for 7th out of 17 teams. The future is very bright for his team. Their top 3 are all under classmen, going Soph at 16:26, Jr at 16:40 (15th finisher and last state qualifier) and my Soph at 17:27. Their #6 is also a Soph who went 18:03 and ran a 17:48 earlier in the season.

Great, great season. He really broke out this year - exciting to think about where he'll be next fall, a year stronger and picking up (more or less) where he left off this year.

My boy's team swept its own 5-team invitational Friday - took 7 of the Top 10 in JV, 6 of the Top 10 in Varsity. He was 3rd overall in the JV race, 2nd on his team, beat his home course PR (set earlier last week) by 6 seconds. The #1 guy on the JV has slowly inched past the #7 guy on Varsity, but with just one dual meet and the Conference Championship left, the coach is leaving everyone where they are. He said that this late in the season, the only way he'd seriously consider switching is if a guy from JV was running fast enough to be a consistent Top 5, point-scoring guy on Varsity. The coach runs the whole program like one big team, and he doesn't want the #7 guy on Varsity to feel like he's looking over his shoulder and fighting off a teammate with every single race, just like he doesn't want a guy who's having a breakthrough JV season and having a great experience running at the front of the pack suddenly find himself eating dust in Varsity races. Just one more reason why the guy is a great coach, and why we have like 30 guys stacking the starting line for JV races while most teams have no more than 8 or 9.

Dual meet tomorrow vs. the conference cellar-dweller and then the Championship next Wednesday. My boy's away course PR is 19:00 so he's pretty keyed up to go sub-19 tomorrow. He ran 8.5 LSD (though he finished pretty fast) on Saturday and then a 4-mile tempo run yesterday.

The Conference meet is going to be awesome. Our team had always been a doormat until the present coach got things rolling 4 or 5 years ago - we won the B Conference the last two years, and got bumped up to our league's A Conference this year. The varsity is in second place after the regular season, having lost only to the undefeated team that's won the last 4 A Conference titles (that's Loyola for former Maryland local SteveC). I think it's going to be really, really close, a race where every position for all 5 point-scorers matters. I also don't think the other team realizes how good we are right now, having beaten us by 8 or 9 points back in mid-September, so it would be extra cool to shock them. JV team is tied for first with 1 dual meet loss, and I think is probably a slight favorite to win the title.

On a related note, my son plans to take the day after the Championship off, then row a 6k piece on the ergometer the next day to set a baseline before beginning his off-season crew conditioning the following Monday. Meanwhile, I ran 6 miles Saturday - the third time I've run in October, according to my Garmin.

You are so spot on about having the right coach (and coaching staff). I think I've posted before about the incredible and diverse mix our school has for both the boys and girls teams. One of the boy's team goals each year is to get 20 runners under 20 minutes. As I do with my son, I run the course during the JV race trying to get to the mile markers and key points and cheer for each boy, by name if possible. I was cheering Saturday at the 1/4 mile to go mark of the JV race and there was a pack of 6 boys, including a good friend of my sons, that hit this point with what I assessed would be very close to sub 20 and I quickly shouted to the pack as much. Each of the 6 boys put the hammer down finishing within a couple of seconds of each other and the last at 19:59 and he would be their 20th under 20 for the season. There were boys in this pack that did not get under 30 in their first few races.

My son is taking a few days off too and, I think has drank more sugary soda and ate more junk food in the last two days than he did in the entire 4 months preceding. He also got back on the long board and skateboard and ramp over the weekend. I didn't put my foot down on no boarding during the season, but did suggest he stay off them to see just what he could do (didn't hurt that their top mile runner in track almost missed states due to a skate board fall a few weeks before regionals). Next up for him, starting today, is hitting the gym to add some strength and core work to limited running over the next few months.

 

[The_Man]

You are so spot on about having the right coach (and coaching staff). I think I've posted before about the incredible and diverse mix our school has for both the boys and girls teams. One of the boy's team goals each year is to get 20 runners under 20 minutes. As I do with my son, I run the course during the JV race trying to get to the mile markers and key points and cheer for each boy, by name if possible. I was cheering Saturday at the 1/4 mile to go mark of the JV race and there was a pack of 6 boys, including a good friend of my sons, that hit this point with what I assessed would be very close to sub 20 and I quickly shouted to the pack as much. Each of the 6 boys put the hammer down finishing within a couple of seconds of each other and the last at 19:59 and he would be their 20th under 20 for the season. There were boys in this pack that did not get under 30 in their first few races.

That is so awesome! I really enjoy seeing that kind of camaraderie. No surprise that teams do better when they have it.

My HS cross country team wasn't cutthroat but there was also no real sense of team spirit. Every guy was just out doing his own thing, and so the harder-working guys moved up, the lazy guys moved back, and neither the team nor the individual runners ever did as well as they could have. My coach - no joke - was in his early 50s, smoked, and on rare occasion would ride along us on his Kawasaki minibike, but more often would be gone by the time we got back from our workouts.

It's really great when a coach transforms something that can be as solitary as distance running sometimes is into a true team activity.

 

[SteveC702]

Great races Fubar and Grue. I really enjoy reading these reports. Well-done.

The_Man, good luck to The_Son in his upcoming meets! Sub 19:00 is smoking.

ChiefD, nice race! Hope you stick around. Lot's of great advice here.

I am back to regular training now after the marathon and the cold. I should top 50 mpw through the end of November, probably close to 60. I am trying to figure out exactly what to do as far as adding more speed now that it is cooler. I want to focus on a December half while continuing to train at marathon mileage for Houston in January. Any suggestions for half training?

I'd keep the mileage high (50s) and make sure to get a good dose of tempo work. I'm a big fan of the Pfitz style 8/4 thru 11/7 workouts. Pretty sure you know those...

As you get closer to within 6-7 weeks of the race, I'd mix in some 400/800 intervals.

One tempo or interval session per week should do. I think 3 weeks on, 1 week off from tempo/intervals is a good framework. Everything else should be MLR/LR/Recovery type running. I'd probably top out at 17mi LR.

Yeah what Ned said. Or if you are only going to only do one "quality" session a week make the MP segment slightly shorter than you would during peak marathon training and finish the last 2-4 miles at tempo/HM pace.

 

[koby925]

5 weeks of 30+ miles for me after this past week total of 38.

Had an awful start to the week, so did back to back 10 mile runs on Sat/Sun in 74:30 and 76:20. Yesterday's run was a little tougher on the hips and legs in general, but fitnesswise, these 8-10 milers are starting to come easier.

 

[2Young2BBald]

One question I have though: how much in-race nutrition do most people do? I've run both my races (and my long runs) using about 2 chews about every 3 miles. But I'm finding myself getting really hungry at about the 10 mile mark. Should I be consuming more during the race? I would experiment during my training, but just not sure if I even need to go down that road for such a short distance of a race.

You do need to go down that road, trying things on training runs, to determine what works for you. You'll figure it out through trial and error. Through mostly error, I've figured out what works for me. For anything that is going to go around 2 hours or longer, I take a Hammer Gel 20 minutes before and then another gel and (2) Hammer Endrolytes every 50 to 60 minutes. My stomach cannot take Gu, but tolerates Hammer Gel just fine. I learned about the Endurolytes while cramping, bad, during a 10 leg survival tri and running the cramps away after taking 3. Taking the periodically during races has kept them away for the most part and I take a couple right after longer races and it seems like these have really helped recovery.

 

[FUBAR]

It's funny looking at the post-race results list and how my perception might be different than reality, at least for this race.

I placed 172 out of 624 listed (so, top 30%). But the participants list had the total at 1329. Maybe 700 people just didn't show up? Seems weird that it would be that many, but there were many empty bike spots. My coral of 6 only had 3 bikes in it.

Swim - which I thought would be my worst event, especially with the cramps; I placed 153.

Bike - my split isn't listed, but according to my watch, I would have been ~197. Had thought this to be my best event, but the first 20 miles were slow for me.

Run - has me at 137. So rather easily my best event. Not too surprised by this.

So, in a way it's what I thought it was - places of 172 total, 153/197/137; I'm pretty consistent. Nothing great but no glaringly bad performance area. Maybe I'm just wrong about my bike being my strength, or maybe I just was more affected by the weather than others. Or maybe I just took it too easy at first, lacking the confidence experience would bring? If I had started closer to my final pace, I would have ranked somewhere between 100-140. Too bad we can't see how others paced throughout.

Anyway... it's just interesting to look at.

Not to be too hard on you, but given your fitness, you should be north of 20mph on the bike for the 1/2 distance on that course. That said, if you err in the other direction, you'll lose everything back and then some on the run. You can tell by how much closer you total finish is to your bike finish where the work needs to go. Didn't you say you were wearing sweat pants on the bike?

Regardless, that's an impressive placement, especially when the hardcore guys probably raced and the newbies sat out due to the cold.

I think you're right. I wasn't as confident coming out of the swim as I probably should have been. I told myself I'd just get going for the first 10 miles, which is what I did. I should have pushed harder earlier.

I wore windpants on the bike, given the temperature and that my tri-suit was wet, figured I'd be better off. Not sure if that was the right call, but I wasn't overly hot on the ride.

Not sure what you mean by "You can tell by how much closer you total finish is to your bike finish where the work needs to go." aside from do speed work on the bike.

197 - 172 = 25 places

172 - 153 = 19 places

172 - 137 = 35 places

You had two events with placements significantly better than your overall place. Swim was 34 positions better than the bike, run was 60 places better than the bike. Those two events only move the overall needle 25 places lower than your bike. Basically shows you that you'll get the most bang for you buck improving your bike.

When you say wind pants, I'm thinking closer to sweat pants than tights. If that's the case, towing along a parachute would probably add 10 minutes to your bike time.

Pretty much like these but with no lining. Somewhat loose fitting around the quads, taper to the calf.

totally. Did. Not. Even. Consider. Wind. Resistance.

Do you really think that will add 10 minutes?

 

[tri-man 47]

FUBAR - 8 weeks apart carries some risk. Have you considered another Half-IM a couple of months before doing the BtoB full IM? Finishing a full IM must be such a grind. To finish is a hugh achievement. Why the desire to do two in that short span? Not like I'm the one to question doubling up on endurance events! Nevertheless, do you have a clear goal, other than the sheer madness of it all (which I understand)?

Already signed up and paid for Louisville. Not turning back now.

the motivation to do B2B also is two fold. First, it was just an enjoyable event, although perhaps doing the half again with a chance to go sub 5 would be a good way to go? Not sure right now. Second, I figure I'm unlikely to train back up for a full after this year. The training is the hardest part for me. time is key. So why not hit a couple while trained for it?

 

[prosopis]

Happy to report that Fall 50 was a big success. My 3-man team finished 4th overall (behind three 5-person teams) out of 321 teams and placed 3rd in the Men's Open division. Overall time was 5:35:32 (6:43/mile). Personally, I ran really well, and thankfully I had no problems with the hip flexors, so hopefully this will be the start of a much-needed "up" cycle for me.

It was definitely a fun challenge only having three guys, since we ran significantly more miles than the other teams' runners, plus we had a lot less recovery time between legs. Details of my three runs:

#1 (Leg 3) - 7.13 hilly miles at 6:45/mile. Ran the first four miles at 6:40 average then slowed down a bit (low 7s) on the next portion as I grinded my way uphill. Finished off the leg with about 1-1/2 miles of downhill at about 6:15 pace. Felt good.

#2 (Legs 6-7) - Combined these two legs into one longer one. 7.85 miles at 6:50/mile. Sanded the start, running 6:25 for the first mile and 6:38 for the second. Felt OK on mile #3 (6:48), and then I started to get really tired. Thankfully it was a super flat leg, because I was running on fumes. Averaged right around 6:50-7 the rest of the way.

#3 (Leg 10) - 4.66 miles at 6:50/mile. Sanded it again (6:36), then locked in at 6:52-6:57 the rest of the way. The runner for the 3rd-place team took the handoff a couple of minutes ahead of me, and I tried my best to catch her (yes, her), but I ran out of race. If I just could've gotten her in my sights, I'm sure I could've found the energy to go get her. She actually told me afterwards that her motivation on that leg was to not let me catch her and that "[my] stride looks so easy and smooth" that she didn't want to have to stare at it again. So that was a nice compliment.

Hung out afterwards at one of the best post-race parties around, and then spent the evening hitting the bars in Sturgeon Bay. Ladies definitely like a tall dude with a couple of big medals hanging around his neck. Never mind what they tell you...size DOES matter.

Best team name that I saw? Must Eat Between Legs

Most fun team? Dirty Girl Scouts Troop #69

I'll definitely be back next year. Might try to put together a 5-man team to go for the win...

Fantastic!!!!!

 

[prosopis]

Lets talk cadence. I need some expert advice.

I went to fleet feet today complaining of severe toe pain after running about 7 miles. I felt it may have been due to the new shoes. Guy talked to me about compression socks and also replaced my super feet. I had just put my old ones from old shoes into the new shoes. Turns out one of them was cracked and they were both to small and sliding inside my shoes. Anyway he puts me on the treadmill and films my running.

I am heel striking and he says getting my leg out to far. He then talks to me about getting my cadence up to about 180 a min. According to him I am at about 156 a min now. It seems a little confusing to me as he says faster cadence can be done at same pace I am running now. I guess it is just a faster turn over of the legs which will eliminate the heel strike I am not sure I truly get this. He talked about a metronome to help set cadence and stressed this change will take some time.

They have some kind of clinic going on there tomorrow which I am going to try to attend.

Can anyone make any sense of this? I am not sure I understand this. Someone else at the store said to check out chi running and Norton running?

This really sounds like something Tri man will know about.

 

[Sand]

It's funny looking at the post-race results list and how my perception might be different than reality, at least for this race.

I placed 172 out of 624 listed (so, top 30%). But the participants list had the total at 1329. Maybe 700 people just didn't show up? Seems weird that it would be that many, but there were many empty bike spots. My coral of 6 only had 3 bikes in it.

Swim - which I thought would be my worst event, especially with the cramps; I placed 153.

Bike - my split isn't listed, but according to my watch, I would have been ~197. Had thought this to be my best event, but the first 20 miles were slow for me.

Run - has me at 137. So rather easily my best event. Not too surprised by this.

So, in a way it's what I thought it was - places of 172 total, 153/197/137; I'm pretty consistent. Nothing great but no glaringly bad performance area. Maybe I'm just wrong about my bike being my strength, or maybe I just was more affected by the weather than others. Or maybe I just took it too easy at first, lacking the confidence experience would bring? If I had started closer to my final pace, I would have ranked somewhere between 100-140. Too bad we can't see how others paced throughout.

Anyway... it's just interesting to look at.

Not to be too hard on you, but given your fitness, you should be north of 20mph on the bike for the 1/2 distance on that course. That said, if you err in the other direction, you'll lose everything back and then some on the run. You can tell by how much closer you total finish is to your bike finish where the work needs to go. Didn't you say you were wearing sweat pants on the bike?

Regardless, that's an impressive placement, especially when the hardcore guys probably raced and the newbies sat out due to the cold.

I think you're right. I wasn't as confident coming out of the swim as I probably should have been. I told myself I'd just get going for the first 10 miles, which is what I did. I should have pushed harder earlier.

I wore windpants on the bike, given the temperature and that my tri-suit was wet, figured I'd be better off. Not sure if that was the right call, but I wasn't overly hot on the ride.

Not sure what you mean by "You can tell by how much closer you total finish is to your bike finish where the work needs to go." aside from do speed work on the bike.

197 - 172 = 25 places

172 - 153 = 19 places

172 - 137 = 35 places

You had two events with placements significantly better than your overall place. Swim was 34 positions better than the bike, run was 60 places better than the bike. Those two events only move the overall needle 25 places lower than your bike. Basically shows you that you'll get the most bang for you buck improving your bike.

When you say wind pants, I'm thinking closer to sweat pants than tights. If that's the case, towing along a parachute would probably add 10 minutes to your bike time.

Pretty much like these but with no lining. Somewhat loose fitting around the quads, taper to the calf.

totally. Did. Not. Even. Consider. Wind. Resistance.

Do you really think that will add 10 minutes?

Probably a few minutes. Stuff flapping in the wind really does slow you down.

Although when I read this all I could think is your right leg pant getting into your gears and you go ### over teakettle. :shudder: No way I would wear anything the slightest bit loose on my legs like that.

 

[FUBAR]

It's funny looking at the post-race results list and how my perception might be different than reality, at least for this race.

I placed 172 out of 624 listed (so, top 30%). But the participants list had the total at 1329. Maybe 700 people just didn't show up? Seems weird that it would be that many, but there were many empty bike spots. My coral of 6 only had 3 bikes in it.

Swim - which I thought would be my worst event, especially with the cramps; I placed 153.

Bike - my split isn't listed, but according to my watch, I would have been ~197. Had thought this to be my best event, but the first 20 miles were slow for me.

Run - has me at 137. So rather easily my best event. Not too surprised by this.

So, in a way it's what I thought it was - places of 172 total, 153/197/137; I'm pretty consistent. Nothing great but no glaringly bad performance area. Maybe I'm just wrong about my bike being my strength, or maybe I just was more affected by the weather than others. Or maybe I just took it too easy at first, lacking the confidence experience would bring? If I had started closer to my final pace, I would have ranked somewhere between 100-140. Too bad we can't see how others paced throughout.

Anyway... it's just interesting to look at.

Not to be too hard on you, but given your fitness, you should be north of 20mph on the bike for the 1/2 distance on that course. That said, if you err in the other direction, you'll lose everything back and then some on the run. You can tell by how much closer you total finish is to your bike finish where the work needs to go. Didn't you say you were wearing sweat pants on the bike?

Regardless, that's an impressive placement, especially when the hardcore guys probably raced and the newbies sat out due to the cold.

I think you're right. I wasn't as confident coming out of the swim as I probably should have been. I told myself I'd just get going for the first 10 miles, which is what I did. I should have pushed harder earlier.

I wore windpants on the bike, given the temperature and that my tri-suit was wet, figured I'd be better off. Not sure if that was the right call, but I wasn't overly hot on the ride.

Not sure what you mean by "You can tell by how much closer you total finish is to your bike finish where the work needs to go." aside from do speed work on the bike.

197 - 172 = 25 places

172 - 153 = 19 places

172 - 137 = 35 places

You had two events with placements significantly better than your overall place. Swim was 34 positions better than the bike, run was 60 places better than the bike. Those two events only move the overall needle 25 places lower than your bike. Basically shows you that you'll get the most bang for you buck improving your bike.

When you say wind pants, I'm thinking closer to sweat pants than tights. If that's the case, towing along a parachute would probably add 10 minutes to your bike time.

Pretty much like these but with no lining. Somewhat loose fitting around the quads, taper to the calf.

totally. Did. Not. Even. Consider. Wind. Resistance.

Do you really think that will add 10 minutes?

Probably a few minutes. Stuff flapping in the wind really does slow you down.

Although when I read this all I could think is your right leg pant getting into your gears and you go ### over teakettle. :shudder: No way I would wear anything the slightest bit loose on my legs like that.

Dude, I'm not quite that dumb. These zip with elastic in the bottom, they're actually great pants for running or if aerodynamics aren't an issue. Of course, aerodynamics are key on the bike in a race...

 

[tri-man 47]

prosopis - don't give me too much credit! I know that 180 steps/minute is recommended, though I actually haven't ever remembered to check my own pace, and I doubt a lot of runners hit that mark. (Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..) I do agree with the argument that a heel strike will slow the pace. It just takes too much time to land, roll through the step, and push off again. It also discourages the little bit of forward lean that is conducive to faster running. Just yesterday, when running some 400m repeats, I was reminding myself to "float ...float." A midfoot or forefoot strike encourages a light, quick step. But as we discussed with The_Man recently, it's a long and potentially difficult adjustment. Any of the minimalist or lighter shoes will kind of force the issue since a heel strike would be painful!

I'll be interested to hear what they say tomorrow. I know it's easiest to just "go running." It can be an irritant to think about footstrike, cadence, breathing patterns, etc. ...just like it can be hard to pound out hill repeats or practice intervals. But it's all those things that lead to measureable improvement. Plan B, though, is essentially to just bang out a ton of miles.

 

[Sand]

Dude, I'm not quite that dumb. These zip with elastic in the bottom, they're actually great pants for running or if aerodynamics aren't an issue. Of course, aerodynamics are key on the bike in a race...

Good. I remember doing that as a kid and still have the scar! I was just reading about B2B and how the bike splits were much slower this year than others due to the wind. So maybe you weren't as slow as you thought.

Just goes to show you need a powermeter.

 

[prosopis]

prosopis - don't give me too much credit! I know that 180 steps/minute is recommended, though I actually haven't ever remembered to check my own pace, and I doubt a lot of runners hit that mark. (Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..) I do agree with the argument that a heel strike will slow the pace. It just takes too much time to land, roll through the step, and push off again. It also discourages the little bit of forward lean that is conducive to faster running. Just yesterday, when running some 400m repeats, I was reminding myself to "float ...float." A midfoot or forefoot strike encourages a light, quick step. But as we discussed with The_Man recently, it's a long and potentially difficult adjustment. Any of the minimalist or lighter shoes will kind of force the issue since a heel strike would be painful!

I'll be interested to hear what they say tomorrow. I know it's easiest to just "go running." It can be an irritant to think about footstrike, cadence, breathing patterns, etc. ...just like it can be hard to pound out hill repeats or practice intervals. But it's all those things that lead to measureable improvement. Plan B, though, is essentially to just bang out a ton of miles.

So concentrating on a midfoot strike should increase the cadence, correct?

 

[BassNBrew]

It's funny looking at the post-race results list and how my perception might be different than reality, at least for this race.

I placed 172 out of 624 listed (so, top 30%). But the participants list had the total at 1329. Maybe 700 people just didn't show up? Seems weird that it would be that many, but there were many empty bike spots. My coral of 6 only had 3 bikes in it.

Swim - which I thought would be my worst event, especially with the cramps; I placed 153.

Bike - my split isn't listed, but according to my watch, I would have been ~197. Had thought this to be my best event, but the first 20 miles were slow for me.

Run - has me at 137. So rather easily my best event. Not too surprised by this.

So, in a way it's what I thought it was - places of 172 total, 153/197/137; I'm pretty consistent. Nothing great but no glaringly bad performance area. Maybe I'm just wrong about my bike being my strength, or maybe I just was more affected by the weather than others. Or maybe I just took it too easy at first, lacking the confidence experience would bring? If I had started closer to my final pace, I would have ranked somewhere between 100-140. Too bad we can't see how others paced throughout.

Anyway... it's just interesting to look at.

Not to be too hard on you, but given your fitness, you should be north of 20mph on the bike for the 1/2 distance on that course. That said, if you err in the other direction, you'll lose everything back and then some on the run. You can tell by how much closer you total finish is to your bike finish where the work needs to go. Didn't you say you were wearing sweat pants on the bike?

Regardless, that's an impressive placement, especially when the hardcore guys probably raced and the newbies sat out due to the cold.

I think you're right. I wasn't as confident coming out of the swim as I probably should have been. I told myself I'd just get going for the first 10 miles, which is what I did. I should have pushed harder earlier.

I wore windpants on the bike, given the temperature and that my tri-suit was wet, figured I'd be better off. Not sure if that was the right call, but I wasn't overly hot on the ride.

Not sure what you mean by "You can tell by how much closer you total finish is to your bike finish where the work needs to go." aside from do speed work on the bike.

197 - 172 = 25 places

172 - 153 = 19 places

172 - 137 = 35 places

You had two events with placements significantly better than your overall place. Swim was 34 positions better than the bike, run was 60 places better than the bike. Those two events only move the overall needle 25 places lower than your bike. Basically shows you that you'll get the most bang for you buck improving your bike.

When you say wind pants, I'm thinking closer to sweat pants than tights. If that's the case, towing along a parachute would probably add 10 minutes to your bike time.

Pretty much like these but with no lining. Somewhat loose fitting around the quads, taper to the calf.

totally. Did. Not. Even. Consider. Wind. Resistance.

Do you really think that will add 10 minutes?

I figured it killed about 1 mph. 10 minutes was too high, maybe closer to 7-8. Basically wearing those pants would have been like trading whatever bike you rode for a mountain bike with clip-ons. Sand mentioned it was windy which would make it even worse. I'm easily 1-2 mph slower in my winter gear.

 

[tri-man 47]

prosopis - don't give me too much credit! I know that 180 steps/minute is recommended, though I actually haven't ever remembered to check my own pace, and I doubt a lot of runners hit that mark. (Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..) I do agree with the argument that a heel strike will slow the pace. It just takes too much time to land, roll through the step, and push off again. It also discourages the little bit of forward lean that is conducive to faster running. Just yesterday, when running some 400m repeats, I was reminding myself to "float ...float." A midfoot or forefoot strike encourages a light, quick step. But as we discussed with The_Man recently, it's a long and potentially difficult adjustment. Any of the minimalist or lighter shoes will kind of force the issue since a heel strike would be painful!

I'll be interested to hear what they say tomorrow. I know it's easiest to just "go running." It can be an irritant to think about footstrike, cadence, breathing patterns, etc. ...just like it can be hard to pound out hill repeats or practice intervals. But it's all those things that lead to measureable improvement. Plan B, though, is essentially to just bang out a ton of miles.

So concentrating on a midfoot strike should increase the cadence, correct?

It should, yes.

 

[The_Man]

prosopis - don't give me too much credit! I know that 180 steps/minute is recommended, though I actually haven't ever remembered to check my own pace, and I doubt a lot of runners hit that mark. (Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..) I do agree with the argument that a heel strike will slow the pace. It just takes too much time to land, roll through the step, and push off again. It also discourages the little bit of forward lean that is conducive to faster running. Just yesterday, when running some 400m repeats, I was reminding myself to "float ...float." A midfoot or forefoot strike encourages a light, quick step. But as we discussed with The_Man recently, it's a long and potentially difficult adjustment. Any of the minimalist or lighter shoes will kind of force the issue since a heel strike would be painful!

I'll be interested to hear what they say tomorrow. I know it's easiest to just "go running." It can be an irritant to think about footstrike, cadence, breathing patterns, etc. ...just like it can be hard to pound out hill repeats or practice intervals. But it's all those things that lead to measureable improvement. Plan B, though, is essentially to just bang out a ton of miles.

So concentrating on a midfoot strike should increase the cadence, correct?

As Tri-Man says, I'm kind of working on this. There are two mental images I use to try to make it happen. 1 - I imagine I'm running barefoot and think about how I would be stepping and landing if I weren't wearing shoes. That gets me way up off my heels and on to the balls of my feet. 2 - I think about pedaling a bike, and try to get my feet turning over constantly in rhythm

 

[FUBAR]

prosopis - don't give me too much credit! I know that 180 steps/minute is recommended, though I actually haven't ever remembered to check my own pace, and I doubt a lot of runners hit that mark. (Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..) I do agree with the argument that a heel strike will slow the pace. It just takes too much time to land, roll through the step, and push off again. It also discourages the little bit of forward lean that is conducive to faster running. Just yesterday, when running some 400m repeats, I was reminding myself to "float ...float." A midfoot or forefoot strike encourages a light, quick step. But as we discussed with The_Man recently, it's a long and potentially difficult adjustment. Any of the minimalist or lighter shoes will kind of force the issue since a heel strike would be painful!

I'll be interested to hear what they say tomorrow. I know it's easiest to just "go running." It can be an irritant to think about footstrike, cadence, breathing patterns, etc. ...just like it can be hard to pound out hill repeats or practice intervals. But it's all those things that lead to measureable improvement. Plan B, though, is essentially to just bang out a ton of miles.

So concentrating on a midfoot strike should increase the cadence, correct?

It should, yes.

I changed my running form a few years back to a higher cadence mid-foot strike. It takes time and patience. Suggest only doing this if you're prepared to significantly decreasing your mileage for a month+ and working up from there. Intervals will be your friend at first. If you're so inclined, focus on other sports for this time - cross fit is a very good complimentary workout plan to maintain fitness while changing your form.

 

[Ned]

prosopis - don't give me too much credit! I know that 180 steps/minute is recommended, though I actually haven't ever remembered to check my own pace, and I doubt a lot of runners hit that mark. (Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..) I do agree with the argument that a heel strike will slow the pace. It just takes too much time to land, roll through the step, and push off again. It also discourages the little bit of forward lean that is conducive to faster running. Just yesterday, when running some 400m repeats, I was reminding myself to "float ...float." A midfoot or forefoot strike encourages a light, quick step. But as we discussed with The_Man recently, it's a long and potentially difficult adjustment. Any of the minimalist or lighter shoes will kind of force the issue since a heel strike would be painful!

I'll be interested to hear what they say tomorrow. I know it's easiest to just "go running." It can be an irritant to think about footstrike, cadence, breathing patterns, etc. ...just like it can be hard to pound out hill repeats or practice intervals. But it's all those things that lead to measureable improvement. Plan B, though, is essentially to just bang out a ton of miles.

So concentrating on a midfoot strike should increase the cadence, correct?

It should, yes.

I changed my running form a few years back to a higher cadence mid-foot strike. It takes time and patience. Suggest only doing this if you're prepared to significantly decreasing your mileage for a month+ and working up from there. Intervals will be your friend at first. If you're so inclined, focus on other sports for this time - cross fit is a very good complimentary workout plan to maintain fitness while changing your form.

Running uphill also helps to promote a good mid/forefoot strike. This little animation on the newton website is a great demonstration on the differences between heel and midfoot striking. Note the little buttons at the top...

 

[Juxtatarot]

(Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..)

Wow! You noticed something like this?

After a discussion here about cadence last winter, I counted several times during treadmill runs. I was at about 180 at a medium pace, a little lower during slower paces and a little higher when running fast. I'm not sure if my cadence is different running on streets. I'm curious what some others here are at.

I'm a midfoot striker. Playing around, I have tried out a heel strike on runs for kicks. I don't know how most people do that. It seems so awkward (to me) and inefficient.

 

[Ned]

(Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..)

Wow! You noticed something like this?

After a discussion here about cadence last winter, I counted several times during treadmill runs. I was at about 180 at a medium pace, a little lower during slower paces and a little higher when running fast. I'm not sure if my cadence is different running on streets. I'm curious what some others here are at.

I'm a midfoot striker. Playing around, I have tried out a heel strike on runs for kicks. I don't know how most people do that. It seems so awkward (to me) and inefficient.

I'm a long strider and can't imagine being at 180 on anything but intervals...

The motoactv counts your steps (I assumed based on arm swing since I don't use a footpod). I don't know how accurate it is, but I looked at a few of my different runs from last few weeks...

Recovery: 155-157

Long Run: 162-163

MP: 168-169

HM race: 170-171 (hit 181 on final sprint)

800m intervals: 180-181 (did hit 184 on 2nd interval)

 

[tri-man 47]

prosopis - don't give me too much credit! I know that 180 steps/minute is recommended, though I actually haven't ever remembered to check my own pace, and I doubt a lot of runners hit that mark. (Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..) I do agree with the argument that a heel strike will slow the pace. It just takes too much time to land, roll through the step, and push off again. It also discourages the little bit of forward lean that is conducive to faster running. Just yesterday, when running some 400m repeats, I was reminding myself to "float ...float." A midfoot or forefoot strike encourages a light, quick step. But as we discussed with The_Man recently, it's a long and potentially difficult adjustment. Any of the minimalist or lighter shoes will kind of force the issue since a heel strike would be painful!

I'll be interested to hear what they say tomorrow. I know it's easiest to just "go running." It can be an irritant to think about footstrike, cadence, breathing patterns, etc. ...just like it can be hard to pound out hill repeats or practice intervals. But it's all those things that lead to measureable improvement. Plan B, though, is essentially to just bang out a ton of miles.

So concentrating on a midfoot strike should increase the cadence, correct?

As Tri-Man says, I'm kind of working on this. There are two mental images I use to try to make it happen. 1 - I imagine I'm running barefoot and think about how I would be stepping and landing if I weren't wearing shoes. That gets me way up off my heels and on to the balls of my feet. 2 - I think about pedaling a bike, and try to get my feet turning over constantly in rhythm

It's like biking or golf ...that smooth, circular, efficient rotation. As FUBAR notes, intervals are great practice (even just 100m straight-away accelerations to get the feel), and as Ned notes, hills (slight inclines) are great, too. On moderate paced runs, I sometimes see an increase in pace during inclines merely because I'm on the balls of my feet and springing ahead.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Wicked 10K

Hit the finish line at 39:25 well under my goal. I'm so stoked...6:21 a mile (6:16 on my watch). Get home and find out I actually placed in my age group... 3rd out of 337 in men 35-39. Can't believe it. 22nd overall out of 5936.

I did it.

Thanks everyone for your support...definitely helped that you guys were more confident than me!

Awesome, congrats on spanking your goal!

Beach2Battleship 70.3

Overall, I'm pleased especially as this was my first tri in over 3 years. My expectations may have been a little bit unreasonable in hoping for a sub 5, but with more training, experience, and just a little warmer weather for the start, I should be able to knock off at least 20 minutes on the events and 10 in transitions. Sub 5 is still a stretch, but in time, who knows?

Eta, in case it isn't obvious, don't pass on the post race massage. that was awesome.

Congrats! That swim, in those temps, sounds brutal.

Happy to report that Fall 50 was a big success. My 3-man team finished 4th overall (behind three 5-person teams) out of 321 teams and placed 3rd in the Men's Open division. Overall time was 5:35:32 (6:43/mile). Personally, I ran really well, and thankfully I had no problems with the hip flexors, so hopefully this will be the start of a much-needed "up" cycle for me.

It was definitely a fun challenge only having three guys, since we ran significantly more miles than the other teams' runners, plus we had a lot less recovery time between legs. Details of my three runs:

#1 (Leg 3) - 7.13 hilly miles at 6:45/mile. Ran the first four miles at 6:40 average then slowed down a bit (low 7s) on the next portion as I grinded my way uphill. Finished off the leg with about 1-1/2 miles of downhill at about 6:15 pace. Felt good.

#2 (Legs 6-7) - Combined these two legs into one longer one. 7.85 miles at 6:50/mile. Sanded the start, running 6:25 for the first mile and 6:38 for the second. Felt OK on mile #3 (6:48), and then I started to get really tired. Thankfully it was a super flat leg, because I was running on fumes. Averaged right around 6:50-7 the rest of the way.

#3 (Leg 10) - 4.66 miles at 6:50/mile. Sanded it again (6:36), then locked in at 6:52-6:57 the rest of the way. The runner for the 3rd-place team took the handoff a couple of minutes ahead of me, and I tried my best to catch her (yes, her), but I ran out of race. If I just could've gotten her in my sights, I'm sure I could've found the energy to go get her. She actually told me afterwards that her motivation on that leg was to not let me catch her and that "[my] stride looks so easy and smooth" that she didn't want to have to stare at it again. So that was a nice compliment.

Hung out afterwards at one of the best post-race parties around, and then spent the evening hitting the bars in Sturgeon Bay. Ladies definitely like a tall dude with a couple of big medals hanging around his neck. Never mind what they tell you...size DOES matter.

Best team name that I saw? Must Eat Between Legs

Most fun team? Dirty Girl Scouts Troop #69

I'll definitely be back next year. Might try to put together a 5-man team to go for the win...

This sounds like a cool event. I really need to get some people together for a relay. And congrats on knocking out three really strong legs.

Just ran my 2nd 1/2 marathon 2 weeks ago. The first one I ran was last spring. Actually, that was the first race I had ever run. Got talked into it by my neighbor last October, so I had plenty of time to train. That and my doctor laughed at me last year when she tried to put me on cholestoral meds. I told her I'd like to try and control it naturally by diet and exercise.

Fast forward a year. My first 1/2 in the spring I had no idea what to expect. And I'll preface this by saying my goal was to finish. I had really no idea on what to do, what to wear, nothing. Found the Hal Higdon plan and followed it pretty religiously. Ended up finishing in 2:03. Also lost 20 pounds in the process, quit eating fast food, cut back on my soda and beer consumption by at least 75%.

Decided I wanted to run faster on this next race, the one I did last weekend. Followed the Hal Higdon plan, but more of the intermediate plan. So I added tempo runs and interval training to my schedule. My goal for this race was 1:50. Not even sure why I picked that number: probably because my neighbor's sister ran one that quick, so I figured what the heck.

Ended up at 1:52, and was really pleased. A pretty hilly course here in KC, but I probably could have gone faster. I lined up in the 1:55 group, because I just wasn't sure I could hit 1:50. In retrospect, I should have lined up a 1:50 because I probably could have stayed with that pace group. I definitely feel I had some left in the tank.

Now, of course, the bug has hit. How fast can I really go? I'm 44, and the truth is I don't really enjoy running. I really enjoy the benefits: better health, I can see my abs again, etc. So I'm not even sure HOW to go faster.

Anyway, congrats to everyone in here. I admire anyone who just gets off the couch and does something.

Congrats, and condolences, on catching the bug!

 

[FUBAR]

Just registered for the Raleigh HIM.

http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/events/americas/ironman-70.3/raleigh.aspx#axzz2j7UJKTL9

Now the question will be whether to get a hotel room or not, it's just an hour from the house.

 

[BassNBrew]

Sand - You should have done this event. http://rev3tri.com/anderson/results-5/2013-results/

You would have qualified for worlds.

 

[tri-man 47]

Just registered for the Raleigh HIM.

http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/events/americas/ironman-70.3/raleigh.aspx#axzz2j7UJKTL9

Now the question will be whether to get a hotel room or not, it's just an hour from the house.

You need to be up in time so your morning nutrition can settle in ...it'd make sense to stay with the home surroundings, get the food you need, then use that hour as buffer time. You're planning an ambitious year! Woo hoo!!!

 

[ThreeThousand]

Last post for a while today;

How long would you all suggest resting between ironman events? I'm signed up for the Louisville IM in August next year and considering signing up for next year's Full Beach2Battleship (it was that good an event). This is ~ 8 weeks after Louisville. I think it's doable, but will I regret it?

I doubt you'll regret it, but you'll need to be extra vilgilent to hydrate and eat at IML. Take one day off for each hour you race. This will leave you a nice 4 week training block before your next taper. IML will be a great event to properly set your goals for B2B.

I'll agree with this - I think it's doable. I"m going to be attempting something similar in 2014 as well - I'm signed up for IM Chattanooga at the end of September, and am also planning on IM Cozumel at the beginning of December. The above is about my plan. I'll go with 100% rest for a week, start mixing in some light sessions for the next week, have 1 medium week and 2 long weeks, then start tapering again. I think the fitness gain from training for the first will carry you (and me) through the second.

 

[FUBAR]

Last post for a while today;

How long would you all suggest resting between ironman events? I'm signed up for the Louisville IM in August next year and considering signing up for next year's Full Beach2Battleship (it was that good an event). This is ~ 8 weeks after Louisville. I think it's doable, but will I regret it?

I doubt you'll regret it, but you'll need to be extra vilgilent to hydrate and eat at IML. Take one day off for each hour you race. This will leave you a nice 4 week training block before your next taper. IML will be a great event to properly set your goals for B2B.

I'll agree with this - I think it's doable. I"m going to be attempting something similar in 2014 as well - I'm signed up for IM Chattanooga at the end of September, and am also planning on IM Cozumel at the beginning of December. The above is about my plan. I'll go with 100% rest for a week, start mixing in some light sessions for the next week, have 1 medium week and 2 long weeks, then start tapering again. I think the fitness gain from training for the first will carry you (and me) through the second.

Both of your IMs look awesome.

The nice thing for me anyway, is the B2B should be easier than Louisville.

April 26 - Nashville Marathon (might just do the half)

June 1 - Raleigh 70.3

August 26 - Louisville 140.6

October 27? - Wilmington 140.6

Seems a decent spread.

 

[BassNBrew]

Last post for a while today;

How long would you all suggest resting between ironman events? I'm signed up for the Louisville IM in August next year and considering signing up for next year's Full Beach2Battleship (it was that good an event). This is ~ 8 weeks after Louisville. I think it's doable, but will I regret it?

I doubt you'll regret it, but you'll need to be extra vilgilent to hydrate and eat at IML. Take one day off for each hour you race. This will leave you a nice 4 week training block before your next taper. IML will be a great event to properly set your goals for B2B.

I'll agree with this - I think it's doable. I"m going to be attempting something similar in 2014 as well - I'm signed up for IM Chattanooga at the end of September, and am also planning on IM Cozumel at the beginning of December. The above is about my plan. I'll go with 100% rest for a week, start mixing in some light sessions for the next week, have 1 medium week and 2 long weeks, then start tapering again. I think the fitness gain from training for the first will carry you (and me) through the second.

Both of your IMs look awesome.

The nice thing for me anyway, is the B2B should be easier than Louisville.

April 26 - Nashville Marathon (might just do the half)

June 1 - Raleigh 70.3

August 26 - Louisville 140.6

October 27? - Wilmington 140.6

Seems a decent spread.

Why don't you skip B2B and do age group nationals. You, me, and Sand could qualify for Worlds in Sweden in 2015. Now that would be a cornhole.

 

[MAC_32]

I shall call today's workout 'twingey.'

It was the best cardio workout I've had in as long as I can remember. 4 miles, 25 minutes 30 seconds, negative splits, heart rate never escalated beyond the yellow and bounced back quickly upon completion. The twinges throughout though. This is frustrating. Several different toes on my left foot, left heel, lower left quad..if I only I can get my cardio to match my legs at the same time.

Going to mix a recovery run with strength training tomorrow, take Thursday off, then re-evaluate Friday.

 

[worrierking]

Let me echo what others have said about heel-striking. I used to be a bad heel striker and over-strider (they go hand-in-hand and overstriding is probably worse for you than heel-striking) and over time have become a mid-foot runner. My cadence is faster than it used to be, but last I checked it was still around 155-160 on easy runs. I am slow and tall, so I will never be near 180.

Any shoe with a lower heel will help with the transition. I could not handle the Newtons, but have done well with the Saucony Triumph, which has a lower heel than what I used to use and still has some cushioning. It may take some experimentation and you definitely need to take it slowly, but I believe I am healthier for it. No really bad injuries in a couple of years with higher mileage.

 

[beer 302]

Trying to catch up Hang 10, Fubar, grue & ChiefD nice job! Some great race reports and results!!!

To the rest of you, keep it up! The season of PR continues!!!

 

[worrierking]

Great races Fubar and Grue. I really enjoy reading these reports. Well-done.

The_Man, good luck to The_Son in his upcoming meets! Sub 19:00 is smoking.

ChiefD, nice race! Hope you stick around. Lot's of great advice here.

I am back to regular training now after the marathon and the cold. I should top 50 mpw through the end of November, probably close to 60. I am trying to figure out exactly what to do as far as adding more speed now that it is cooler. I want to focus on a December half while continuing to train at marathon mileage for Houston in January. Any suggestions for half training?

I'd keep the mileage high (50s) and make sure to get a good dose of tempo work. I'm a big fan of the Pfitz style 8/4 thru 11/7 workouts. Pretty sure you know those...

As you get closer to within 6-7 weeks of the race, I'd mix in some 400/800 intervals.

One tempo or interval session per week should do. I think 3 weeks on, 1 week off from tempo/intervals is a good framework. Everything else should be MLR/LR/Recovery type running. I'd probably top out at 17mi LR.

Yeah what Ned said. Or if you are only going to only do one "quality" session a week make the MP segment slightly shorter than you would during peak marathon training and finish the last 2-4 miles at tempo/HM pace.

Thanks Ned an Steve. I am seriously considering two faster sessions per week to see if I can handle it. Maybe one steady state/MP type longer run and one true tempo session. I am tired of all the slow running from the summer.

 

[tri-man 47]

I shall call today's workout 'twingey.'

It was the best cardio workout I've had in as long as I can remember. 4 miles, 25 minutes 30 seconds, negative splits, heart rate never escalated beyond the yellow and bounced back quickly upon completion. The twinges throughout though. This is frustrating. Several different toes on my left foot, left heel, lower left quad..if I only I can get my cardio to match my legs at the same time.

Going to mix a recovery run with strength training tomorrow, take Thursday off, then re-evaluate Friday.

---

worrierking - just now focusing on your winter training: I'd lean toward mile or even two-mile repeats to really bring the endurance element into play for these long intervals.

 

[SteveC702]

(Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..)

Wow! You noticed something like this?

After a discussion here about cadence last winter, I counted several times during treadmill runs. I was at about 180 at a medium pace, a little lower during slower paces and a little higher when running fast. I'm not sure if my cadence is different running on streets. I'm curious what some others here are at.

I'm a midfoot striker. Playing around, I have tried out a heel strike on runs for kicks. I don't know how most people do that. It seems so awkward (to me) and inefficient.

A little late to the conversation, but I'll share my experience as well.

In high school and college I definitely had the longer "ground-eating" strides of a miler / MD guy. There were multiple pictures of myself I found where I am pretty much airborne, and pretty high off the ground too.

When I started up again I came across a book, (surprise surprise) Jack Daniel's Running Formula, where he talked about how he spent a week at a one of the Olympic Games or World Championships studying the strides of world class runners, and that pretty much every person that specialized in the 3000 or longer had a stride rate of 180-185. Around the same time, I was also having heel/foot pain, and given that I was terribly out of shape and had no races coming up in the near future, i decided to experiment. When I started out I had a stride rate in the 165-170 range, but after weeks of consciously increasing my turnover and focusing on taking "lighter/smaller" steps the pain gradually went away. (again, could be due to me getting in shape). Anyways, I have a very different stride from my HS/college days now and while I don't check my stride rate often anymore, the last few times I did it's usually in the 185-190/min range.

 

[FUBAR]

Last post for a while today;

How long would you all suggest resting between ironman events? I'm signed up for the Louisville IM in August next year and considering signing up for next year's Full Beach2Battleship (it was that good an event). This is ~ 8 weeks after Louisville. I think it's doable, but will I regret it?

I doubt you'll regret it, but you'll need to be extra vilgilent to hydrate and eat at IML. Take one day off for each hour you race. This will leave you a nice 4 week training block before your next taper. IML will be a great event to properly set your goals for B2B.

I'll agree with this - I think it's doable. I"m going to be attempting something similar in 2014 as well - I'm signed up for IM Chattanooga at the end of September, and am also planning on IM Cozumel at the beginning of December. The above is about my plan. I'll go with 100% rest for a week, start mixing in some light sessions for the next week, have 1 medium week and 2 long weeks, then start tapering again. I think the fitness gain from training for the first will carry you (and me) through the second.

Both of your IMs look awesome.

The nice thing for me anyway, is the B2B should be easier than Louisville.

April 26 - Nashville Marathon (might just do the half)

June 1 - Raleigh 70.3

August 26 - Louisville 140.6

October 27? - Wilmington 140.6

Seems a decent spread.

Why don't you skip B2B and do age group nationals. You, me, and Sand could qualify for Worlds in Sweden in 2015. Now that would be a cornhole.

I'm nowhere near fast enough for nationals. Sounds fun though.

 

[FUBAR]

Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Just today, went for a planned 5 mile recovery run (went 5.5, but close enough). Figured I'd just go comfortable for the first mile. Check the watch, 7:57 go another comfortable mile, 7:56. Force myself to slow down, 8:12 for the 3rd, 8:24 for the 4th. Did the 5th at 8:01. last half was just under 4. Legs feel sore/tired, but I wasn't pushing.

I did count my steps a few times over the last 1.5 miles for a minute or 30 seconds and was very consistent at 180/minute.

Maybe it's the cadence, but I always struggle to run slow on my recovery runs or intervals.

I know, this is a "First world problem"

 

[MAC_32]

Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Just today, went for a planned 5 mile recovery run (went 5.5, but close enough). Figured I'd just go comfortable for the first mile. Check the watch, 7:57 go another comfortable mile, 7:56. Force myself to slow down, 8:12 for the 3rd, 8:24 for the 4th. Did the 5th at 8:01. last half was just under 4. Legs feel sore/tired, but I wasn't pushing.

I did count my steps a few times over the last 1.5 miles for a minute or 30 seconds and was very consistent at 180/minute.

Maybe it's the cadence, but I always struggle to run slow on my recovery runs or intervals.

I know, this is a "First world problem"

From the perspective of someone who has the same problems, this is what I did with recovery runs - I stopped scheduling them. When I did I'd do them either right and get nothing out of them or wrong and waste my run. I run recovery runs when I feel like my body needs it now. When I do them I'll mix in strength training throughout to keep my brain focused, prevent me from running too fast, and...well, strength training is good for you. I've been having a lot more success with both since I started doing this, definitely going to be more challenging come winter though. Push up's with blowing snow in my face doesn't sound like a good time.

 

[FUBAR]

Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Just today, went for a planned 5 mile recovery run (went 5.5, but close enough). Figured I'd just go comfortable for the first mile. Check the watch, 7:

 

[SFBayDuck]

And the heel striker/mid-forefoot striker debate continues with a study covered by the New York Times this week. I know I'm primarily a heel striker, but I do focus on trying to land on the midfoot at times, and even up on the forefoot heading up hills (those occasions when I actually run up them, that is). So maybe I'm a hybrid. While I wear Hokas for most of my miles, shoes that were originally designed with a focus on running downhill (where most tend to be a little further back on their heels), they only have a 4mm heel-toe drop so they can be conducive to non-heel striking strides.

And as for the cadence discussion, I've read up on that a bit over the years and it exposes what I see as an inherent flaw in many of these types of studies - they focus on elites. Elites are, by definition, different than most of us. And while there are a few here (I'm looking at you, Steve!) that are close enough to the front of the pack to be grouped into that category, most people simply differ greatly bio-mechanically. So while I think there can definitely be a benefit to increasing cadence and focusing on running fast and light, trying to get to and stay consistently at 180 cadence is probably going to end up being a frustrating exercise for many "average" runners.

Just my $.02 from the trail......

 

[MAC_32]

Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Just today, went for a planned 5 mile recovery run (went 5.5, but close enough). Figured I'd just go comfortable for the first mile. Check the watch, 7:

I forget what your races are usually like, but I think you're fairly close to me timewise. A recovery run for me is usually about 7 minute mile pace, so that would seem about right. In the end, it's all about heart rate. I categorize my heart rate levels as white, yellow, red, and AHHH. White is recovery, yellow is now tempo, red is hard, and AHHH is how I should feel the last 3 minutes of a race. I think you should be comfortable, so as long as you're comfortable and keeping your heart rate relatively low I think you're fine.

 

[gruecd]

Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Yes.

 

[gruecd]

Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Yes.

Seriously, even when I'm in sub-3 or low-3-hour marathon shape, my recovery pace is 8:30ish. As someone once explained to me, your recovery runs should be done at a such a pace that you'd feel embarrassed if someone saw you running so slow.

 

[BassNBrew]

Last post for a while today;

How long would you all suggest resting between ironman events? I'm signed up for the Louisville IM in August next year and considering signing up for next year's Full Beach2Battleship (it was that good an event). This is ~ 8 weeks after Louisville. I think it's doable, but will I regret it?

I doubt you'll regret it, but you'll need to be extra vilgilent to hydrate and eat at IML. Take one day off for each hour you race. This will leave you a nice 4 week training block before your next taper. IML will be a great event to properly set your goals for B2B.

I'll agree with this - I think it's doable. I"m going to be attempting something similar in 2014 as well - I'm signed up for IM Chattanooga at the end of September, and am also planning on IM Cozumel at the beginning of December. The above is about my plan. I'll go with 100% rest for a week, start mixing in some light sessions for the next week, have 1 medium week and 2 long weeks, then start tapering again. I think the fitness gain from training for the first will carry you (and me) through the second.

Both of your IMs look awesome.

The nice thing for me anyway, is the B2B should be easier than Louisville.

April 26 - Nashville Marathon (might just do the half)

June 1 - Raleigh 70.3

August 26 - Louisville 140.6

October 27? - Wilmington 140.6

Seems a decent spread.

Why don't you skip B2B and do age group nationals. You, me, and Sand could qualify for Worlds in Sweden in 2015. Now that would be a cornhole.

I'm nowhere near fast enough for nationals. Sounds fun though.

Whut?

5:17 was good for the last slot (assuming M40-44), 5:39 on roll down. Average transition times combined look to be around 5 minutes.

eta - You sound like Sand. Always talk about how slow you are while posting times that would qualify you for worlds.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Just today, went for a planned 5 mile recovery run (went 5.5, but close enough). Figured I'd just go comfortable for the first mile. Check the watch, 7:

I forget what your races are usually like, but I think you're fairly close to me timewise. A recovery run for me is usually about 7 minute mile pace, so that would seem about right. In the end, it's all about heart rate. I categorize my heart rate levels as white, yellow, red, and AHHH. White is recovery, yellow is now tempo, red is hard, and AHHH is how I should feel the last 3 minutes of a race. I think you should be comfortable, so as long as you're comfortable and keeping your heart rate relatively low I think you're fine.

Where is your aerobic or base-building zone then? You go from Recovery right to Tempo? Or are you using aerobic/recovery interchangeably? Every book, and every runner, it seems has different definitions for this stuff.

 

[FUBAR]

Last post for a while today;

How long would you all suggest resting between ironman events? I'm signed up for the Louisville IM in August next year and considering signing up for next year's Full Beach2Battleship (it was that good an event). This is ~ 8 weeks after Louisville. I think it's doable, but will I regret it?

I doubt you'll regret it, but you'll need to be extra vilgilent to hydrate and eat at IML. Take one day off for each hour you race. This will leave you a nice 4 week training block before your next taper. IML will be a great event to properly set your goals for B2B.

I'll agree with this - I think it's doable. I"m going to be attempting something similar in 2014 as well - I'm signed up for IM Chattanooga at the end of September, and am also planning on IM Cozumel at the beginning of December. The above is about my plan. I'll go with 100% rest for a week, start mixing in some light sessions for the next week, have 1 medium week and 2 long weeks, then start tapering again. I think the fitness gain from training for the first will carry you (and me) through the second.

Both of your IMs look awesome.

The nice thing for me anyway, is the B2B should be easier than Louisville.

April 26 - Nashville Marathon (might just do the half)

June 1 - Raleigh 70.3

August 26 - Louisville 140.6

October 27? - Wilmington 140.6

Seems a decent spread.

Why don't you skip B2B and do age group nationals. You, me, and Sand could qualify for Worlds in Sweden in 2015. Now that would be a cornhole.

I'm nowhere near fast enough for nationals. Sounds fun though.

Whut?

5:17 was good for the last slot (assuming M40-44), 5:39 on roll down. Average transition times combined look to be around 5 minutes.

eta - You sound like Sand. Always talk about how slow you are while posting times that would qualify you for worlds.

Maybe I've confused world's with kona

 

[prosopis]

(Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..)

Wow! You noticed something like this?

After a discussion here about cadence last winter, I counted several times during treadmill runs. I was at about 180 at a medium pace, a little lower during slower paces and a little higher when running fast. I'm not sure if my cadence is different running on streets. I'm curious what some others here are at.

I'm a midfoot striker. Playing around, I have tried out a heel strike on runs for kicks. I don't know how most people do that. It seems so awkward (to me) and inefficient.

I'm a long strider and can't imagine being at 180 on anything but intervals...

The motoactv counts your steps (I assumed based on arm swing since I don't use a footpod). I don't know how accurate it is, but I looked at a few of my different runs from last few weeks...

Recovery: 155-157

Long Run: 162-163

MP: 168-169

HM race: 170-171 (hit 181 on final sprint)

800m intervals: 180-181 (did hit 184 on 2nd interval)

Last night I was under the impression that the cadence would not change pace? Maybe I misunderstood.