Ran a 10k in June (5 Viewers)

[FUBAR]

This is what I've come to use for the past 2ish years that has produced PRs from 5K thru the marathon:

Recovery = <70%

Long Run = <75%

General Aerobic = <80% (junk runs - I rarely run here much now)

Marathon Pace = <86%

Lactate Threshold = <91%

VO2max = >91%

I might be blurring marathon pace and LT.

My mHR was 198, which would give me:

Recovery = <139

Long Run = <149

General Aerobic = <158

Marathon Pace = <170

Lactate Threshold = <180

VO2max = >180


As my main focus for the year is an IM, but for short term it's a marathon, I'll do most of my training either <149 (conveniently, this is my MAF pace) and <170.

 

[FUBAR]

All this goes back to my original question. And I'm asking this because I'm sincerely curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. We all have read the advantages of running slow. Cutting and pasting:

Why do long slow distance runs?

The LSD run has many benefits. First, it helps to adapt your joints and muscles to give them the endurance for long runs. Second, it improves your cardiovascular system, strengthens the heart and increases the blood supply in the muscles; it therefore enhances the body’s capacity to deliver oxygen to your muscles. Third, it enhances your body’s ability to burn fat as a source of energy. Fourth, it teaches your body to store more energy as glycogen in your muscles. And finally, long slow runs teach the body to run efficiently, minimising the energy expenditure needed to move you along. Even if you are not training for a marathon, the long slow distance run is a key element in your overall fitness programme.

There seems to be differing opinions however about what heart rates you should usually run these long, slow runs at -- usually I've seen about 70 to 75% of max HR but I've even seen as high as 85%. My question is why should we train at 70% if our body feels comfortable at 75%? What are we not getting at 75%? I thought, perhaps (I don't know) it might be better for glycogen storage and fat burning training which, although important, aren't as critical for shorter distances.

Here's an example from an actual metobolic test I took a few years ago.

Max hr 185.

Aerobic base 127 hr (68.6%) - AB is the maximun rate at which you burn fat.. In this test I burned 7.2 KCal/min fat of a total 14.9 KCal/min.

Anaerobic Threshold 167 (90.3%) - I burned 30.2 Kcal/min but only 0.5 KCal/min fat. So while I doubled the calories burned, the fat calories burned were about zero.

At 142 or mid zone 2 (77%) - 20.4 Kcal/min with 5.8 Kcal/min being fat..

So to answer your question, while I felt comfortable training at 77% or 142 hr, I was burning 5.8 cal of fat but when I slowed down to an almost silly pace of 127 hr, I burned 7.2 cal of fat.

For whatever reason, running at 127 teaches my body to use fat as a fuel source. I didn't re-test after doing slow base work, but the theory was that if I had done so, that 0.5 KCal/min fat at 167 hr would have increased. Matter of fact, the %fat burned should have increased across all zones.

My specific example isn't going to apply to everyone due to fitness and base, but it's a real world example of why 70% is better than 75%.

Why do you think the authors are generally giving higher ranges? I do agree with your point that everyone's different. That's something we all need to remember. It's also important for runners to experiment a little and try to figure out what works best for them.

I can only assume that they are skewed towards a well trained or decent base out look on things.

I can only tell you that I train at the low end of the range most of the time and felt stronger at mile 20 than mile 10 of my first marathon (day 3 of three days of events), posted faster mile times at mile 36-finish of my 40 miler than I did anytime in that training cycle, and set my marathon and 50 mile prs during a 100 mile event.

Understandable. I guess I feel strongly about this because I had marathon breakthroughs in 2012 and I believe that increasing my intensity on long runs was a big factor in this.

You can't take the suggested HR ranges in a vacuum; you have to remember the context of how they're telling you to run. Here's the excerpt from Pfitz's book on the long run:

The first few miles of your long runs can be done slowly, but by 5 miles into your long run, your pace should be no more than 20% slower than your marathon pace. Gradually increase your pace until you're running approximately 10% slower than marathon pace during the last 5 miles of your long runs. In terms of hear rate, run the first few miles at the low end of the recommended intensity range, and gradually increase your effort until you reach the high end of the range during the last 5 miles.

it's one plan. 20% slower puts me at 9 minutes (pretty consistent with my MAF pace) and the 10% at 8:15, which will probably put me into the General aerobic zone, which I'm just not sure has much value.

 

[Juxtatarot]

BnB also isn't training to race a marathon. He's training to survive a 100mi run. Aside from his example, I don't think I've seen anyone tout that all of your long runs should be below 70%.

This is what I've come to use for the past 2ish years that has produced PRs from 5K thru the marathon:

Recovery = <70%

Long Run = <75%

General Aerobic = <80% (junk runs - I rarely run here much now)

Marathon Pace = <86%

Lactate Threshold = <91%

VO2max = >91%

Right, I think it makes sense that someone training for an ultra or an Ironman should train at lower levels due to the severe endurance demands of those races. I think this is different for people training for shorter races such as half marathons. Marathons? I'm not sure.

My original questions were prompted by advice given in discussing Chief's half marathon training. We are giving him a WAG HR Max of 190 but he was advised to keep his heart rate 138 or below (I think, from memory) during long runs and easy runs. He found this frustratingly slow. I think he's fine targeting in the low 140s --particularly during the later stages of runs when his heart rate will drift higher.

With the low heart rate, we're not talking about Chief's 16 week plan or whatever. We're simply discussing what Mafetone states for his plan. Which is a good way to build your aerobic base.

For the record, I think what you're doing is great. It makes a lot of sense to heavily focus on your endurance base like that for off-season Ironman training. IIRC, Chief is in the middle of training for a spring half marathon.

 

[Ned]

BnB also isn't training to race a marathon. He's training to survive a 100mi run. Aside from his example, I don't think I've seen anyone tout that all of your long runs should be below 70%.

This is what I've come to use for the past 2ish years that has produced PRs from 5K thru the marathon:

Recovery = <70%

Long Run = <75%

General Aerobic = <80% (junk runs - I rarely run here much now)

Marathon Pace = <86%

Lactate Threshold = <91%

VO2max = >91%

Right, I think it makes sense that someone training for an ultra or an Ironman should train at lower levels due to the severe endurance demands of those races. I think this is different for people training for shorter races such as half marathons. Marathons? I'm not sure.

My original questions were prompted by advice given in discussing Chief's half marathon training. We are giving him a WAG HR Max of 190 but he was advised to keep his heart rate 138 or below (I think, from memory) during long runs and easy runs. He found this frustratingly slow. I think he's fine targeting in the low 140s --particularly during the later stages of runs when his heart rate will drift higher.

With the low heart rate, we're not talking about Chief's 16 week plan or whatever. We're simply discussing what Mafetone states for his plan. Which is a good way to build your aerobic base.

For the record, I think what you're doing is great. It makes a lot of sense to heavily focus on your endurance base like that for off-season Ironman training. IIRC, Chief is in the middle of training for a spring half marathon.

What would be your recommendation for Chief?

 

[Juxtatarot]

BnB also isn't training to race a marathon. He's training to survive a 100mi run. Aside from his example, I don't think I've seen anyone tout that all of your long runs should be below 70%.

This is what I've come to use for the past 2ish years that has produced PRs from 5K thru the marathon:

Recovery = <70%

Long Run = <75%

General Aerobic = <80% (junk runs - I rarely run here much now)

Marathon Pace = <86%

Lactate Threshold = <91%

VO2max = >91%

Right, I think it makes sense that someone training for an ultra or an Ironman should train at lower levels due to the severe endurance demands of those races. I think this is different for people training for shorter races such as half marathons. Marathons? I'm not sure.

My original questions were prompted by advice given in discussing Chief's half marathon training. We are giving him a WAG HR Max of 190 but he was advised to keep his heart rate 138 or below (I think, from memory) during long runs and easy runs. He found this frustratingly slow. I think he's fine targeting in the low 140s --particularly during the later stages of runs when his heart rate will drift higher.

With the low heart rate, we're not talking about Chief's 16 week plan or whatever. We're simply discussing what Mafetone states for his plan. Which is a good way to build your aerobic base.

For the record, I think what you're doing is great. It makes a lot of sense to heavily focus on your endurance base like that for off-season Ironman training. IIRC, Chief is in the middle of training for a spring half marathon.

What would be your recommendation for Chief?

Mainly the standard advice most would give. Try one of the various plans that mixes slow runs, an occassional tempo and maybe a bit of speed work. This is his 3rd half so he should be able to handle that. However, as I've stated, I don't think he needs to worry if his HR drifts into the low and perhaps even mid 140s on slower runs (besides recoveries) -- particularly if his perceived effort is comfortable.

 

[beer 302]

What's the recommendation for a guy that has trained for a 50k and then has to turn around in 3 weeks and run a half? Is there any way to pick up some speed, safely, without killing myself?

 

[Sand]

BnB also isn't training to race a marathon. He's training to survive a 100mi run. Aside from his example, I don't think I've seen anyone tout that all of your long runs should be below 70%.


This is what I've come to use for the past 2ish years that has produced PRs from 5K thru the marathon:

Recovery = <70%

Long Run = <75%

General Aerobic = <80% (junk runs - I rarely run here much now)

Marathon Pace = <86%

Lactate Threshold = <91%

VO2max = >91%

Interesting discussion. I also can't help but note that I never run at anything less than Marathon HR or faster.

 

[Ned]

What's the recommendation for a guy that has trained for a 50k and then has to turn around in 3 weeks and run a half? Is there any way to pick up some speed, safely, without killing myself?

You'll still be recovering from the 50K - there's no way you should think about speed work for a solid 6+ weeks. Unless of course you're asking for Tri, then by all means go do some 400m repeats after you get home from the 50K.

 

[ChiefD]

BnB also isn't training to race a marathon. He's training to survive a 100mi run. Aside from his example, I don't think I've seen anyone tout that all of your long runs should be below 70%.

This is what I've come to use for the past 2ish years that has produced PRs from 5K thru the marathon:

Recovery = <70%

Long Run = <75%

General Aerobic = <80% (junk runs - I rarely run here much now)

Marathon Pace = <86%

Lactate Threshold = <91%

VO2max = >91%

Right, I think it makes sense that someone training for an ultra or an Ironman should train at lower levels due to the severe endurance demands of those races. I think this is different for people training for shorter races such as half marathons. Marathons? I'm not sure.

My original questions were prompted by advice given in discussing Chief's half marathon training. We are giving him a WAG HR Max of 190 but he was advised to keep his heart rate 138 or below (I think, from memory) during long runs and easy runs. He found this frustratingly slow. I think he's fine targeting in the low 140s --particularly during the later stages of runs when his heart rate will drift higher.

With the low heart rate, we're not talking about Chief's 16 week plan or whatever. We're simply discussing what Mafetone states for his plan. Which is a good way to build your aerobic base.

For the record, I think what you're doing is great. It makes a lot of sense to heavily focus on your endurance base like that for off-season Ironman training. IIRC, Chief is in the middle of training for a spring half marathon.

What would be your recommendation for Chief?

Mainly the standard advice most would give. Try one of the various plans that mixes slow runs, an occassional tempo and maybe a bit of speed work. This is his 3rd half so he should be able to handle that. However, as I've stated, I don't think he needs to worry if his HR drifts into the low and perhaps even mid 140s on slower runs (besides recoveries) -- particularly if his perceived effort is comfortable.

I've been following this discussion, and it is much appreciated. Thanks to you guys for debating this and giving me some food for thought as I go through my training. And yes, I'm training for my 3rd half in the spring.

It's been fun working in the slower runs, because I definitely feel fresher, especially at the end of my long runs. As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, when I was training for the other 2 half's, everything was almost always at max effort, and those last couple of miles on my long runs my legs would just be dying. Now, I'm feeling a ton better, and my legs don't feel anywhere close to as heavy as they were.

 

[SteveC702]

http://www.marathonfoto.com/Marathon/Rock-n-Roll-New-Orleans-2014/offering/myMarathonfotos/RaceOID/26602014W1/Language/en

Steve, you really need to work on your finishers celebration, bit anti-climatic or where you just unable to move? Thanks for the race report, awesome to have your input in this thread.

I once made the mistake of raising my hands in celebration even though I finished 2nd in the race. (In my defense, it was the 800 at our county championships and I ran down our main rival's #1 runner by making up about 20-30 meters in the last 100 meter of the race, thereby clinching the team title for our team, and the celebration was totally involuntary). The reporter abruptly ended the interview to chase down the actual winner once I pointed out I didn't win the race.

Ever since that day I have stuck to a rule of "both arms raised only when breaking the tape" and a fist pump otherwise, which I did in one of the shots right before the finish.

 

[Ned]

http://www.marathonfoto.com/Marathon/Rock-n-Roll-New-Orleans-2014/offering/myMarathonfotos/RaceOID/26602014W1/Language/en

Steve, you really need to work on your finishers celebration, bit anti-climatic or where you just unable to move? Thanks for the race report, awesome to have your input in this thread.

I once made the mistake of raising my hands in celebration even though I finished 2nd in the race. (In my defense, it was the 800 at our county championships and I ran down our main rival's #1 runner by making up about 20-30 meters in the last 100 meter of the race, thereby clinching the team title for our team, and the celebration was totally involuntary). The reporter abruptly ended the interview to chase down the actual winner once I pointed out I didn't win the race.

Ever since that day I have stuck to a rule of "both arms raised only when breaking the tape" and a fist pump otherwise, which I did in one of the shots right before the finish.

I'd probably have a big oyster in my running shorts if I ever got the chance to break the tape.

 

[beer 302]

http://www.marathonfoto.com/Marathon/Rock-n-Roll-New-Orleans-2014/offering/myMarathonfotos/RaceOID/26602014W1/Language/en

Steve, you really need to work on your finishers celebration, bit anti-climatic or where you just unable to move? Thanks for the race report, awesome to have your input in this thread.

I once made the mistake of raising my hands in celebration even though I finished 2nd in the race. (In my defense, it was the 800 at our county championships and I ran down our main rival's #1 runner by making up about 20-30 meters in the last 100 meter of the race, thereby clinching the team title for our team, and the celebration was totally involuntary). The reporter abruptly ended the interview to chase down the actual winner once I pointed out I didn't win the race.

Ever since that day I have stuck to a rule of "both arms raised only when breaking the tape" and a fist pump otherwise, which I did in one of the shots right before the finish.

I'd probably have a big oyster in my running shorts if I ever got the chance to break the tape.

Steve you are a cool character man, well done.

 

[MAC_32]

Starting to look like I chose an interesting weekend to do my first trail 10k. Of boy...

 

[FUBAR]

First day back in the pool in over a month. Really glad I'm getting back to it now instead of 5 weeks before the HIM.

1800 yards, with 200 kick (those mini-fins SUCK) and 400 pull.

Then rode for 45 minutes on the trainer, definitely felt the swim. and need to do more brick sessions....

 

[bentley]

I got in another 11 today. Feeling very good about the HM in two weeks. I saw someone a couple pages back talking about 25 miles a week being light so now that has me worried I might not have trained hard enough. My current routine has been 3 days a week at 4-5 miles and then a long run on Sunday. 24 miles this week.

I think I maxed out around 30 miles/week before running a HM last year. Still ran 1:50.40. You should easily beat that. Whats your goal?

Goal is to break 1:50. If I maintain my current 11 mile pace over the whole thing I should end up just over 1:48.

You've got 1:50 in the bag IMO. You might want to pick a slightly more challenging time for your "A" goal, with 1:50 as a fallback.

No kidding. If you're banging out 11mi training runs at 8:30s, you should demolish 1:50.

+1 for this. Although if you really want to play it safe go out at the pace til you hit halfway and if you feel good (which you should) pick it up then. You might leave a few minutes out on the course, but you'll finish strong while passing people and will be more excited about getting out there to do another one.

Thanks for the positive thoughts and advice guys. This is kinda my plan. This race has 17K registrants, so I'm planning a slowish start. Hoping to average around 8:20 for the first five miles and then see how I feel from there.

 

[Sand]

First day back in the pool in over a month. Really glad I'm getting back to it now instead of 5 weeks before the HIM.

1800 yards, with 200 kick (those mini-fins SUCK) and 400 pull.

Then rode for 45 minutes on the trainer, definitely felt the swim. and need to do more brick sessions....

7 mile run (pace was really good at a relatively low HR), then a 2000yd swim tonight. I was slow in the pool, but felt surprisingly good.

 

[BassNBrew]

Another below par workout for me yesterday. Even with 3 days rest bike class was a huge whiff. The first 15 min interval at 85% of my new hour power mark (284 watts) put my into the VO2max zone at min 10. I made it through the next 3 min VO2max interval but blew up 4 minutes into the next tempo effort. Physically not ready yesterday but I also quit mentally after this effort. Pretty much turned the reminder of the workout into a combination of recovery and short 2 min VOmax efforts.

Frustrating string together more bad workouts than good workouts.

 

[Sand]

Another below par workout for me yesterday. Even with 3 days rest bike class was a huge whiff. The first 15 min interval at 85% of my new hour power mark (284 watts) put my into the VO2max zone at min 10. I made it through the next 3 min VO2max interval but blew up 4 minutes into the next tempo effort. Physically not ready yesterday but I also quit mentally after this effort. Pretty much turned the reminder of the workout into a combination of recovery and short 2 min VOmax efforts.

That's so ridiculous. And to think you're out of bike shape right now. In shape 300w hour power is within reach.

Sick.

 

[BassNBrew]

Another below par workout for me yesterday. Even with 3 days rest bike class was a huge whiff. The first 15 min interval at 85% of my new hour power mark (284 watts) put my into the VO2max zone at min 10. I made it through the next 3 min VO2max interval but blew up 4 minutes into the next tempo effort. Physically not ready yesterday but I also quit mentally after this effort. Pretty much turned the reminder of the workout into a combination of recovery and short 2 min VOmax efforts.

That's so ridiculous. And to think you're out of bike shape right now. In shape 300w hour power is within reach.

Sick.

I don't think that's an accurate number. It's based on 299 for 12.5 mins being close enough for a 20 min test and then multiplying the 20 min test by 95% to get the hour number. I know the 5% factor works for many, but I think my power curve is weight towards the shorter efforts especially with my lack of total miles on the bike.

 

[Sammy3469]

Another below par workout for me yesterday. Even with 3 days rest bike class was a huge whiff. The first 15 min interval at 85% of my new hour power mark (284 watts) put my into the VO2max zone at min 10. I made it through the next 3 min VO2max interval but blew up 4 minutes into the next tempo effort. Physically not ready yesterday but I also quit mentally after this effort. Pretty much turned the reminder of the workout into a combination of recovery and short 2 min VOmax efforts.

That's so ridiculous. And to think you're out of bike shape right now. In shape 300w hour power is within reach.

Sick.

I don't think that's an accurate number. It's based on 299 for 12.5 mins being close enough for a 20 min test and then multiplying the 20 min test by 95% to get the hour number. I know the 5% factor works for many, but I think my power curve is weight towards the shorter efforts especially with my lack of total miles on the bike.

I think you probably need to add some wiggle room in 12.5 to 20 minute translation. My CP curve from last year had me at 277 for 12.5 minutes then 260 for 20 and 240 for an hour. That works out to about a 13% reduction from 12.5 minutes to an hour.

 

[Sand]

Another below par workout for me yesterday. Even with 3 days rest bike class was a huge whiff. The first 15 min interval at 85% of my new hour power mark (284 watts) put my into the VO2max zone at min 10. I made it through the next 3 min VO2max interval but blew up 4 minutes into the next tempo effort. Physically not ready yesterday but I also quit mentally after this effort. Pretty much turned the reminder of the workout into a combination of recovery and short 2 min VOmax efforts.

That's so ridiculous. And to think you're out of bike shape right now. In shape 300w hour power is within reach.

Sick.

I don't think that's an accurate number. It's based on 299 for 12.5 mins being close enough for a 20 min test and then multiplying the 20 min test by 95% to get the hour number. I know the 5% factor works for many, but I think my power curve is weight towards the shorter efforts especially with my lack of total miles on the bike.

I think you probably need to add some wiggle room in 12.5 to 20 minute translation. My CP curve from last year had me at 277 for 12.5 minutes then 260 for 20 and 240 for an hour. That works out to about a 13% reduction from 12.5 minutes to an hour.

Last year I was at 303 for 12.5 minutes and it went down to 285 for 20. No clue what 1 hour was as I never held "big power" for that long. You know, I really don't have much desire to destroy myself for an hour to find out, either.

Both of those ratios are 94%. So right now maybe more like 270 for 1 hour? Still, that's darn good for January.

 

[worrierking]

Great discussion in here.

Good Luck to Bentley in the race.

I am possibly at a crossroads. I really want to take a shot at sub 4:00 this Spring, but I am doubting that I will be able to. I have a ridiculous work schedule, plus I am filling in on college basketball (and soon baseball) broadcasts for a sick friend, making my weekends very limited. Thankfully, I am only doing home games, so I don't have to travel, but even with that I have only two possible weekends before summer in which I could possibly run a marathon--March 30th and may 3rd. There are plenty of options those days, but travel would be required. I am not sure I will even be able to train properly due to my schedule and my nagging hip adductor problem. I have been battling this on and off since right before the marathon and every time I think the issue is gone or going away it flares back up. Apparently, Shakira was wrong; hips do lie. On my PT's advice, I am taking things very easy until the injury is gone and I fear that it will eventually take me out of the shape that put me in a position to go 4:02 last month, so a sub 4:00 effort might not even be possible.

I may have to wait until the fall, which will be torture. I also don't know my football schedule yet, so I can't choose a fall race, not knowing when my open date might be.

Definitely over-fretting. I am the worrierking, after all.

 

[BassNBrew]

Another below par workout for me yesterday. Even with 3 days rest bike class was a huge whiff. The first 15 min interval at 85% of my new hour power mark (284 watts) put my into the VO2max zone at min 10. I made it through the next 3 min VO2max interval but blew up 4 minutes into the next tempo effort. Physically not ready yesterday but I also quit mentally after this effort. Pretty much turned the reminder of the workout into a combination of recovery and short 2 min VOmax efforts.

That's so ridiculous. And to think you're out of bike shape right now. In shape 300w hour power is within reach.

Sick.

I don't think that's an accurate number. It's based on 299 for 12.5 mins being close enough for a 20 min test and then multiplying the 20 min test by 95% to get the hour number. I know the 5% factor works for many, but I think my power curve is weight towards the shorter efforts especially with my lack of total miles on the bike.

I think you probably need to add some wiggle room in 12.5 to 20 minute translation. My CP curve from last year had me at 277 for 12.5 minutes then 260 for 20 and 240 for an hour. That works out to about a 13% reduction from 12.5 minutes to an hour.

I'm in agreement. My coach didn't make that 12.5 to 20 minute adjustment. I think I figured out why. She's running about 10 of these classes. The "mid-term" assessment was based on a 4 mile uphill TT. She shut off the course when the first person finished and captured the average power numbers. The lead dog in our group is a 315w 20 minute guy who is not real heavy. He had at least a 1/2 mile into me. I suspect some of the classes with weaker lead dogs finished in the 15-18 min range. She ended up with 60+ power number that needed to be adjusted from the day one test and didn't factor in the time.

I had a great day when I did the 12.5 min 299 watt effort and was hanging on for dear life at the end (hoping the leader would hurry up and finish). For whatever reason I ride much better when I can govern my own output. During these intervals the computer won't let us ride at 310 for a minute and then 290 for a minute to average 300, it's locked in at 300 the whole time. Probably not the best way to do these 20 minute assessments, but I like to go hard for a bit and then reward myself with a -20 watt respite for a minute. Or if I'm trying to increase the average throughout, I'll ride above my average and then drop back to the average for a bit before trying to raise it again.

 

[Annyong]

Won a free pair of running socks from these guys at Thirty48 in a Reddit comment drawing thingy ma-bob.

 

[FUBAR]

Won a free pair of running socks from these guys at Thirty48 in a Reddit comment drawing thingy ma-bob.

no idea what that means, but cool socks.

They'll go well with your stylish shorts.

 

[FUBAR]

9 mile trail run today. 20 minutes warm up, then 30 second pickups every 5 minutes. It's amazing how fast those 5 minutes go.

I didn't mean for it to be 9 miles but got turned around at one point and had to figure out my way back. In hindsight, if I had just gone another quarter mile when I turned around, I would have recognized where I was and it would have been a 6 mile run.

my route looks like a whacky waving inflatable arm-flailing tube man gone fly fishing.

 

[gruecd]

Great discussion in here.

Good Luck to Bentley in the race.

I am possibly at a crossroads. I really want to take a shot at sub 4:00 this Spring, but I am doubting that I will be able to. I have a ridiculous work schedule, plus I am filling in on college basketball (and soon baseball) broadcasts for a sick friend, making my weekends very limited. Thankfully, I am only doing home games, so I don't have to travel, but even with that I have only two possible weekends before summer in which I could possibly run a marathon--March 30th and may 3rd. There are plenty of options those days, but travel would be required. I am not sure I will even be able to train properly due to my schedule and my nagging hip adductor problem. I have been battling this on and off since right before the marathon and every time I think the issue is gone or going away it flares back up. Apparently, Shakira was wrong; hips do lie. On my PT's advice, I am taking things very easy until the injury is gone and I fear that it will eventually take me out of the shape that put me in a position to go 4:02 last month, so a sub 4:00 effort might not even be possible.

I may have to wait until the fall, which will be torture. I also don't know my football schedule yet, so I can't choose a fall race, not knowing when my open date might be.

Definitely over-fretting. I am the worrierking, after all.

I really, really hope I'm wrong, but my guy originally diagnosed my labral tear as an adductor strain, too. It's a very common misdiagnosis. If it continues to linger, you might seriously consider getting an MRI. If by some chance it is a labral tear, you don't want to keep running on it and making it worse. Best of luck.

 

[Sand]

Another below par workout for me yesterday. Even with 3 days rest bike class was a huge whiff. The first 15 min interval at 85% of my new hour power mark (284 watts) put my into the VO2max zone at min 10. I made it through the next 3 min VO2max interval but blew up 4 minutes into the next tempo effort. Physically not ready yesterday but I also quit mentally after this effort. Pretty much turned the reminder of the workout into a combination of recovery and short 2 min VOmax efforts.

That's so ridiculous. And to think you're out of bike shape right now. In shape 300w hour power is within reach.

Sick.

I don't think that's an accurate number. It's based on 299 for 12.5 mins being close enough for a 20 min test and then multiplying the 20 min test by 95% to get the hour number. I know the 5% factor works for many, but I think my power curve is weight towards the shorter efforts especially with my lack of total miles on the bike.

I think you probably need to add some wiggle room in 12.5 to 20 minute translation. My CP curve from last year had me at 277 for 12.5 minutes then 260 for 20 and 240 for an hour. That works out to about a 13% reduction from 12.5 minutes to an hour.

I'm in agreement. My coach didn't make that 12.5 to 20 minute adjustment. I think I figured out why. She's running about 10 of these classes. The "mid-term" assessment was based on a 4 mile uphill TT. She shut off the course when the first person finished and captured the average power numbers. The lead dog in our group is a 315w 20 minute guy who is not real heavy. He had at least a 1/2 mile into me. I suspect some of the classes with weaker lead dogs finished in the 15-18 min range. She ended up with 60+ power number that needed to be adjusted from the day one test and didn't factor in the time.

I had a great day when I did the 12.5 min 299 watt effort and was hanging on for dear life at the end (hoping the leader would hurry up and finish). For whatever reason I ride much better when I can govern my own output. During these intervals the computer won't let us ride at 310 for a minute and then 290 for a minute to average 300, it's locked in at 300 the whole time. Probably not the best way to do these 20 minute assessments, but I like to go hard for a bit and then reward myself with a -20 watt respite for a minute. Or if I'm trying to increase the average throughout, I'll ride above my average and then drop back to the average for a bit before trying to raise it again.

With all that power you really need something like this to climb hills faster. Until you snap it in half, of course.

On another note, once you get done with your 100 miler, you can step down to this race. 60 miles, 35,000ft of climbing. Looks lovely.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Thanks for the positive thoughts and advice guys. This is kinda my plan. This race has 17K registrants, so I'm planning a slowish start. Hoping to average around 8:20 for the first five miles and then see how I feel from there.

Good idea. Don't waste energy in the first couple of miles by weaving around people and jockeying for position. Go into the race accepting that those miles will essentially be your warm-up miles. (Not quite as true for a half as it would be for a full, but the same general idea). You can dial in a more aggressive pace once the field thins out a bit, probably about mile 3. And yeah, the start of mile 6 is a good time to re-evaluate how things are going.

 

[bentley]

Thanks for the positive thoughts and advice guys. This is kinda my plan. This race has 17K registrants, so I'm planning a slowish start. Hoping to average around 8:20 for the first five miles and then see how I feel from there.

Good idea. Don't waste energy in the first couple of miles by weaving around people and jockeying for position. Go into the race accepting that those miles will essentially be your warm-up miles. (Not quite as true for a half as it would be for a full, but the same general idea). You can dial in a more aggressive pace once the field thins out a bit, probably about mile 3. And yeah, the start of mile 6 is a good time to re-evaluate how things are going.

I also run in the biggest 10K in Texas every year, which has a costume contest, untimed entrants, power walkers, jogging strollers, and dogs. So, I've gotten very familiar with the idea of making my way through a crowd in a generally straight line without weaving too much or getting too frustrated.

The 10 day forecast has the temperature in the low 40s next Sunday morning, which is pretty much exactly my wheelhouse. Getting excited.

 

[MAC_32]

16 and snow in an already ice and snow covered forest in a hilly river valley.

Sunday is going to be fun, but racing for time? Oh, hell no!

 

[Prince Myshkin]

So if I'm following the HR discussion correctly, GA runs are basically worthless? (ok, not worthless but not nearly as effective as faster or slower)

Most of the stuff I had read in the past said that most runs should be at GA paces with maybe 1 slower long run and 1 speed workout per week mixed in. It sounds like I need to scrap those GA runs although as slow as I am, I don't know if it's actually considered running if I go any slower!!!

 

[ChiefD]

Roads finally got cleared enough to run a 40 minute tempo run yesterday. Stayed true to the heart monitor for the first 25 minutes or so, and I stayed at about 140. Started ramping up my tempo at that point for probably the next 10 minutes and then ramped back down heading home.

Sure was nice to get out: my workouts the 2 days prior were shoveling my driveway over and over and over and over as the snow kept coming. So I got my strength work in too.

 

[Sand]

So if I'm following the HR discussion correctly, GA runs are basically worthless? (ok, not worthless but not nearly as effective as faster or slower)

IMO, GA runs are maligned because other runs stress parts of our aerobic or anaerobic systems more acutely. To call them worthless or not effective is, well, bull####. It does sell books, though, so the quantization of "useful" and "non-useful" runs will always remain.

 

[MAC_32]

So if I'm following the HR discussion correctly, GA runs are basically worthless? (ok, not worthless but not nearly as effective as faster or slower)

Most of the stuff I had read in the past said that most runs should be at GA paces with maybe 1 slower long run and 1 speed workout per week mixed in. It sounds like I need to scrap those GA runs although as slow as I am, I don't know if it's actually considered running if I go any slower!!!

I used to run too fast too often. This strategy failed. I adjusted and did something like you diagrammed. And hit a plateau.I'm still a work in process with the more long, slow miles as it's impossible to do much speed work this time of year, but I am optimistic this is going to work. Usually five runs per week. One fast, one tempo/interval and three low and slow. I doubt I will have a better idea if this works until later in spring though.

 

[worrierking]

Great discussion in here.

Good Luck to Bentley in the race.

I am possibly at a crossroads. I really want to take a shot at sub 4:00 this Spring, but I am doubting that I will be able to. I have a ridiculous work schedule, plus I am filling in on college basketball (and soon baseball) broadcasts for a sick friend, making my weekends very limited. Thankfully, I am only doing home games, so I don't have to travel, but even with that I have only two possible weekends before summer in which I could possibly run a marathon--March 30th and may 3rd. There are plenty of options those days, but travel would be required. I am not sure I will even be able to train properly due to my schedule and my nagging hip adductor problem. I have been battling this on and off since right before the marathon and every time I think the issue is gone or going away it flares back up. Apparently, Shakira was wrong; hips do lie. On my PT's advice, I am taking things very easy until the injury is gone and I fear that it will eventually take me out of the shape that put me in a position to go 4:02 last month, so a sub 4:00 effort might not even be possible.

I may have to wait until the fall, which will be torture. I also don't know my football schedule yet, so I can't choose a fall race, not knowing when my open date might be.

Definitely over-fretting. I am the worrierking, after all.

I really, really hope I'm wrong, but my guy originally diagnosed my labral tear as an adductor strain, too. It's a very common misdiagnosis. If it continues to linger, you might seriously consider getting an MRI. If by some chance it is a labral tear, you don't want to keep running on it and making it worse. Best of luck.

My Physical Therapist told me the same thing. "It sounds like an adductor strain but sometimes a tear is misdiagnosed as an adductor problem." I am going to be careful. I will see about it if it lingers too much longer.

I have a chance to get tested on a treadmill for VO2, Lactate Threshold, etc. I am really interested in seeing the data. Has anyone else done this? What did you learn?

 

[BassNBrew]

Great discussion in here.

Good Luck to Bentley in the race.

I am possibly at a crossroads. I really want to take a shot at sub 4:00 this Spring, but I am doubting that I will be able to. I have a ridiculous work schedule, plus I am filling in on college basketball (and soon baseball) broadcasts for a sick friend, making my weekends very limited. Thankfully, I am only doing home games, so I don't have to travel, but even with that I have only two possible weekends before summer in which I could possibly run a marathon--March 30th and may 3rd. There are plenty of options those days, but travel would be required. I am not sure I will even be able to train properly due to my schedule and my nagging hip adductor problem. I have been battling this on and off since right before the marathon and every time I think the issue is gone or going away it flares back up. Apparently, Shakira was wrong; hips do lie. On my PT's advice, I am taking things very easy until the injury is gone and I fear that it will eventually take me out of the shape that put me in a position to go 4:02 last month, so a sub 4:00 effort might not even be possible.

I may have to wait until the fall, which will be torture. I also don't know my football schedule yet, so I can't choose a fall race, not knowing when my open date might be.

Definitely over-fretting. I am the worrierking, after all.

I really, really hope I'm wrong, but my guy originally diagnosed my labral tear as an adductor strain, too. It's a very common misdiagnosis. If it continues to linger, you might seriously consider getting an MRI. If by some chance it is a labral tear, you don't want to keep running on it and making it worse. Best of luck.

My Physical Therapist told me the same thing. "It sounds like an adductor strain but sometimes a tear is misdiagnosed as an adductor problem." I am going to be careful. I will see about it if it lingers too much longer.

I have a chance to get tested on a treadmill for VO2, Lactate Threshold, etc. I am really interested in seeing the data. Has anyone else done this? What did you learn?

I posted about my testing in depth on the last page. You will learn a ton about how to train.

 

[BassNBrew]

Another below par workout for me yesterday. Even with 3 days rest bike class was a huge whiff. The first 15 min interval at 85% of my new hour power mark (284 watts) put my into the VO2max zone at min 10. I made it through the next 3 min VO2max interval but blew up 4 minutes into the next tempo effort. Physically not ready yesterday but I also quit mentally after this effort. Pretty much turned the reminder of the workout into a combination of recovery and short 2 min VOmax efforts.

That's so ridiculous. And to think you're out of bike shape right now. In shape 300w hour power is within reach.

Sick.

I don't think that's an accurate number. It's based on 299 for 12.5 mins being close enough for a 20 min test and then multiplying the 20 min test by 95% to get the hour number. I know the 5% factor works for many, but I think my power curve is weight towards the shorter efforts especially with my lack of total miles on the bike.

I think you probably need to add some wiggle room in 12.5 to 20 minute translation. My CP curve from last year had me at 277 for 12.5 minutes then 260 for 20 and 240 for an hour. That works out to about a 13% reduction from 12.5 minutes to an hour.

I'm in agreement. My coach didn't make that 12.5 to 20 minute adjustment. I think I figured out why. She's running about 10 of these classes. The "mid-term" assessment was based on a 4 mile uphill TT. She shut off the course when the first person finished and captured the average power numbers. The lead dog in our group is a 315w 20 minute guy who is not real heavy. He had at least a 1/2 mile into me. I suspect some of the classes with weaker lead dogs finished in the 15-18 min range. She ended up with 60+ power number that needed to be adjusted from the day one test and didn't factor in the time.

I had a great day when I did the 12.5 min 299 watt effort and was hanging on for dear life at the end (hoping the leader would hurry up and finish). For whatever reason I ride much better when I can govern my own output. During these intervals the computer won't let us ride at 310 for a minute and then 290 for a minute to average 300, it's locked in at 300 the whole time. Probably not the best way to do these 20 minute assessments, but I like to go hard for a bit and then reward myself with a -20 watt respite for a minute. Or if I'm trying to increase the average throughout, I'll ride above my average and then drop back to the average for a bit before trying to raise it again.

With all that power you really need something like this to climb hills faster. Until you snap it in half, of course.

On another note, once you get done with your 100 miler, you can step down to this race. 60 miles, 35,000ft of climbing. Looks lovely.

Why did you have to post this. I just checked my calendar and that weekend is free.

 

[beer 302]

16 and snow in an already ice and snow covered forest in a hilly river valley.

Sunday is going to be fun, but racing for time? Oh, hell no!

Wow, be careful man! That's crazy weather to be doing a trail race in.

quantization

You trying to give the good doctor a run for his money with these $3 words?

 

[worrierking]

Great discussion in here.

Good Luck to Bentley in the race.

I am possibly at a crossroads. I really want to take a shot at sub 4:00 this Spring, but I am doubting that I will be able to. I have a ridiculous work schedule, plus I am filling in on college basketball (and soon baseball) broadcasts for a sick friend, making my weekends very limited. Thankfully, I am only doing home games, so I don't have to travel, but even with that I have only two possible weekends before summer in which I could possibly run a marathon--March 30th and may 3rd. There are plenty of options those days, but travel would be required. I am not sure I will even be able to train properly due to my schedule and my nagging hip adductor problem. I have been battling this on and off since right before the marathon and every time I think the issue is gone or going away it flares back up. Apparently, Shakira was wrong; hips do lie. On my PT's advice, I am taking things very easy until the injury is gone and I fear that it will eventually take me out of the shape that put me in a position to go 4:02 last month, so a sub 4:00 effort might not even be possible.

I may have to wait until the fall, which will be torture. I also don't know my football schedule yet, so I can't choose a fall race, not knowing when my open date might be.

Definitely over-fretting. I am the worrierking, after all.

I really, really hope I'm wrong, but my guy originally diagnosed my labral tear as an adductor strain, too. It's a very common misdiagnosis. If it continues to linger, you might seriously consider getting an MRI. If by some chance it is a labral tear, you don't want to keep running on it and making it worse. Best of luck.

My Physical Therapist told me the same thing. "It sounds like an adductor strain but sometimes a tear is misdiagnosed as an adductor problem." I am going to be careful. I will see about it if it lingers too much longer.

I have a chance to get tested on a treadmill for VO2, Lactate Threshold, etc. I am really interested in seeing the data. Has anyone else done this? What did you learn?

I posted about my testing in depth on the last page. You will learn a ton about how to train.

How did I miss that? Self-absorption is a terrible thing.

Once you got the numbers, where do you get info on how to use them? I am familiar with Maffetone, who would use the figures to determine the low-end aerobic training pace more precisely than his 180-age formula. How about the faster paces. Who would be a good source?

 

[BassNBrew]

Great discussion in here.

Good Luck to Bentley in the race.

I am possibly at a crossroads. I really want to take a shot at sub 4:00 this Spring, but I am doubting that I will be able to. I have a ridiculous work schedule, plus I am filling in on college basketball (and soon baseball) broadcasts for a sick friend, making my weekends very limited. Thankfully, I am only doing home games, so I don't have to travel, but even with that I have only two possible weekends before summer in which I could possibly run a marathon--March 30th and may 3rd. There are plenty of options those days, but travel would be required. I am not sure I will even be able to train properly due to my schedule and my nagging hip adductor problem. I have been battling this on and off since right before the marathon and every time I think the issue is gone or going away it flares back up. Apparently, Shakira was wrong; hips do lie. On my PT's advice, I am taking things very easy until the injury is gone and I fear that it will eventually take me out of the shape that put me in a position to go 4:02 last month, so a sub 4:00 effort might not even be possible.

I may have to wait until the fall, which will be torture. I also don't know my football schedule yet, so I can't choose a fall race, not knowing when my open date might be.

Definitely over-fretting. I am the worrierking, after all.

I really, really hope I'm wrong, but my guy originally diagnosed my labral tear as an adductor strain, too. It's a very common misdiagnosis. If it continues to linger, you might seriously consider getting an MRI. If by some chance it is a labral tear, you don't want to keep running on it and making it worse. Best of luck.

My Physical Therapist told me the same thing. "It sounds like an adductor strain but sometimes a tear is misdiagnosed as an adductor problem." I am going to be careful. I will see about it if it lingers too much longer.

I have a chance to get tested on a treadmill for VO2, Lactate Threshold, etc. I am really interested in seeing the data. Has anyone else done this? What did you learn?

I posted about my testing in depth on the last page. You will learn a ton about how to train.

How did I miss that? Self-absorption is a terrible thing.

Once you got the numbers, where do you get info on how to use them? I am familiar with Maffetone, who would use the figures to determine the low-end aerobic training pace more precisely than his 180-age formula. How about the faster paces. Who would be a good source?

I got printouts explaining every thing. Basically you'll want to do slow runs where ever you fat Kcal / min is the most. Tempo below lactate threshold. Interval work above lactate threshold. I suspect you'll get pacing information for the various zones as a part of this.

 

[MAC_32]

16 and snow in an already ice and snow covered forest in a hilly river valley.

Sunday is going to be fun, but racing for time? Oh, hell no!

Wow, be careful man! That's crazy weather to be doing a trail race in.

It's actually exactly what I wanted and why I shifted my attention to winter trail racing now that I think about it. But now that it is upon me I guess I really wanted to pop my cherry on something not quite as severe. Ha!

 

[ChiefD]

16 and snow in an already ice and snow covered forest in a hilly river valley.

Sunday is going to be fun, but racing for time? Oh, hell no!

Wow, be careful man! That's crazy weather to be doing a trail race in.

It's actually exactly what I wanted and why I shifted my attention to winter trail racing now that I think about it. But now that it is upon me I guess I really wanted to pop my cherry on something not quite as severe. Ha!

I'll be curious to read your race report. I almost signed up for one of these, but by the time I thought about the race it was only about a week until it started, so I didn't want to blindly sign up. Definitely on my radar for next winter.

 

[2Young2BBald]

16 and snow in an already ice and snow covered forest in a hilly river valley.

Sunday is going to be fun, but racing for time? Oh, hell no!

Wow, be careful man! That's crazy weather to be doing a trail race in.

It's actually exactly what I wanted and why I shifted my attention to winter trail racing now that I think about it. But now that it is upon me I guess I really wanted to pop my cherry on something not quite as severe. Ha!

Struggling to keep up, so sorry if I missed this; are you planning on racing in YakTrax or something similar? I've done a few snow and ice trail races, including one that was all ice and cannot imagine what racing without would have been like. I saw some serious carnage' including one woman that did the old Charlie Brown after Luck pulled back the football. If you do go with YakTrax, know that they will "work" your calves a lot more that just trail shoes. On flat ground, if you can find some, be sure to roll out your feet from heel to toe to stretch the calves a bit.

 

[MAC_32]

16 and snow in an already ice and snow covered forest in a hilly river valley.

Sunday is going to be fun, but racing for time? Oh, hell no!

Wow, be careful man! That's crazy weather to be doing a trail race in.

It's actually exactly what I wanted and why I shifted my attention to winter trail racing now that I think about it. But now that it is upon me I guess I really wanted to pop my cherry on something not quite as severe. Ha!

Struggling to keep up, so sorry if I missed this; are you planning on racing in YakTrax or something similar? I've done a few snow and ice trail races, including one that was all ice and cannot imagine what racing without would have been like. I saw some serious carnage' including one woman that did the old Charlie Brown after Luck pulled back the football. If you do go with YakTrax, know that they will "work" your calves a lot more that just trail shoes. On flat ground, if you can find some, be sure to roll out your feet from heel to toe to stretch the calves a bit.

my wife who is also doing this has gone back and forth about yaktraks but I am going au natural. Thanks for the tip though and if she passes on the yaktraks I'll give her the same tip.

 

[FUBAR]

The icy trail races sound fun but be careful! Hoping mine in Virginia in 5 weeks isn't snowy.

Back in the pool again today. 1.25 miles. Amazing how I've lost feel for the water and walking out it felt wise than a long run. It will come back, just glad I'm doing this now.

 

[SFBayDuck]

What's the recommendation for a guy that has trained for a 50k and then has to turn around in 3 weeks and run a half? Is there any way to pick up some speed, safely, without killing myself?

You'll still be recovering from the 50K - there's no way you should think about speed work for a solid 6+ weeks. Unless of course you're asking for Tri, then by all means go do some 400m repeats after you get home from the 50K.

Exactly, just recover. You're not going to be able to gain much in the way of speed in that time frame. And if you try, you're likely to at best hinder recovery, and at worst get hurt.

 

[SFBayDuck]

16 and snow in an already ice and snow covered forest in a hilly river valley.

Sunday is going to be fun, but racing for time? Oh, hell no!

Wow, be careful man! That's crazy weather to be doing a trail race in.

It's actually exactly what I wanted and why I shifted my attention to winter trail racing now that I think about it. But now that it is upon me I guess I really wanted to pop my cherry on something not quite as severe. Ha!

Struggling to keep up, so sorry if I missed this; are you planning on racing in YakTrax or something similar? I've done a few snow and ice trail races, including one that was all ice and cannot imagine what racing without would have been like. I saw some serious carnage' including one woman that did the old Charlie Brown after Luck pulled back the football. If you do go with YakTrax, know that they will "work" your calves a lot more that just trail shoes. On flat ground, if you can find some, be sure to roll out your feet from heel to toe to stretch the calves a bit.

my wife who is also doing this has gone back and forth about yaktraks but I am going au natural. Thanks for the tip though and if she passes on the yaktraks I'll give her the same tip.

Not something I have any experience with out here in Northern California, but I've also heard of people screwing sheet metal screws into the soles of their shoes for ice traction - costs a couple of bucks while extending the useful life of an otherwise retired pair of shoes. For obvious reasons, make sure the screws are short.

 

[tri-man 47]

16 and snow in an already ice and snow covered forest in a hilly river valley.

Sunday is going to be fun, but racing for time? Oh, hell no!

Wow, be careful man! That's crazy weather to be doing a trail race in.

It's actually exactly what I wanted and why I shifted my attention to winter trail racing now that I think about it. But now that it is upon me I guess I really wanted to pop my cherry on something not quite as severe. Ha!

Struggling to keep up, so sorry if I missed this; are you planning on racing in YakTrax or something similar? I've done a few snow and ice trail races, including one that was all ice and cannot imagine what racing without would have been like. I saw some serious carnage' including one woman that did the old Charlie Brown after Luck pulled back the football. If you do go with YakTrax, know that they will "work" your calves a lot more that just trail shoes. On flat ground, if you can find some, be sure to roll out your feet from heel to toe to stretch the calves a bit.

my wife who is also doing this has gone back and forth about yaktraks but I am going au natural. Thanks for the tip though and if she passes on the yaktraks I'll give her the same tip.

Not something I have any experience with out here in Northern California, but I've also heard of people screwing sheet metal screws into the soles of their shoes for ice traction - costs a couple of bucks while extending the useful life of an otherwise retired pair of shoes. For obvious reasons, make sure the screws are short.

This is consistent with what I've read about previously:

http://www.gobroncobilly.com/?tag=studded-running-shoes

 

[gruecd]

Not something I have any experience with out here in Northern California, but I've also heard of people screwing sheet metal screws into the soles of their shoes for ice traction - costs a couple of bucks while extending the useful life of an otherwise retired pair of shoes. For obvious reasons, make sure the screws are short.

Yupp, I've done it. Use 1/2-inch sheet metal screws. "Screw shoes."