Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Thanks but the data from Strava shows Steel Curtain has me beat.
Some recent samples for me from runs the last few weeks:
7:41pace/173
6:52 pace/180
5:46 pace/195
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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (19 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ned
- Start date
Some recent samples for me from runs the last few weeks:
7:41pace/173
6:52 pace/180
5:46 pace/195
The Iguana
Footballguy
I had never run with it until a couple weeks ago. I hate ear buds (despite wearing hearing aids) and have never had headphones that I would ever want to wear running. Plus I like being able to hear things around me. Finally bought a pair of aftershockz bone conduction headphones and I have loved them and loved having music. I can still hear traffic and other ambient sounds and can barely feel the headphones on my head.
Osaurus
Footballguy
Ran with Jaybird Tarah Pros tonight. I have a pair of AirPods, but I’m afraid of losing them. These things stayed in my ears without issue. Great sound and some ambient sound too. Very impressive. Of course I run slow so results may vary for our FBG rabbits.
SteelCurtain
Footballguy
TripleThreat
Footballguy
Y’all using foot pods?
gruecd
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
Weather report has changed a little for Carmel.
Seriously thinking about bagging this race. For me, this race is probably a little different than grue and juxt. I basically have this one shot to try and break 4:00. For that to happen, everything has to break right for this race - the training, nutrition, and weather.
I think my training is close. I've given it my best shot there.
Nutrition is going well so far this week, and have a good plan for race day.
Weather - no matter how you slice it, the weather looks awful for Saturday. A 17mph north/northwest wind with rain will not be conducive to running a sub 4:00.
Seriously bummed. Damitol. Have to make a call by tomorrow so we can cancel our hotel reservations.
Seriously thinking about bagging this race. For me, this race is probably a little different than grue and juxt. I basically have this one shot to try and break 4:00. For that to happen, everything has to break right for this race - the training, nutrition, and weather.
I think my training is close. I've given it my best shot there.
Nutrition is going well so far this week, and have a good plan for race day.
Weather - no matter how you slice it, the weather looks awful for Saturday. A 17mph north/northwest wind with rain will not be conducive to running a sub 4:00.
Seriously bummed. Damitol. Have to make a call by tomorrow so we can cancel our hotel reservations.
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SteelCurtain
Footballguy
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Juxt: Thank you for the response, Todd. I have a follow up question. How and when would thunderstorms be considered severe weather?
Todd (race director): When they are within the area. We have four different weather applications that we and Carmel Emergency Management use to monitor weather conditions. Just because there is activity around say 64 street doesn’t mean we are directly affected. We want this event to go off and will try everything to get it in without risking runner and volunteer safety.
Todd (race director): When they are within the area. We have four different weather applications that we and Carmel Emergency Management use to monitor weather conditions. Just because there is activity around say 64 street doesn’t mean we are directly affected. We want this event to go off and will try everything to get it in without risking runner and volunteer safety.
The Iguana
Footballguy
First have of the course is a big square. 2nd half of the marathon is a big rectangle going north and south.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Zasada
Footballguy
Yup. My easy run cadence is about ~175 and I ran my 10K race at ~178. It's just my stride length which changes (1.03m vs 1.20m).
And I'm 6'6" so it's harder to keep my giant gangly flamingo legs churning...
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Juxtatarot
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
Yeah, it all depends on when that front comes. If it keeps moving the direction it's going, that cold front will come in sometime in the middle of the race.
As of now, if it stays put, we get rain and thunderstorms but a favorable wind. If it keeps moving the way it has overnight, we get less rain but the northern winds.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
@ChiefD After that response from the race director, I'm leaning toward risking the cancellation and running. My goal window is tight too but sometimes I think we (and me, in particular) get too caught up on numbers. Anyway, my brain sometimes responds well to feeling like the world is conspiring against me.
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ChiefD
Footballguy
Yeah, that's the conundrum for me. I generally have no problem running in wind and rain. That's part of the deal sometimes. But for a guy like me, I get basically one more shot at this.
My body is rebelling big time the last couple of weeks, so I don't think I'll be able to do this again.
MAC_32
Footballguy
I waffled about responding to the bolded and hitting submit on this message for longer than I care to admit. I don't have enough info to provide a good answer. I don't want you to start having even more doubts. Taper madness is very real and this hurdle only makes it that much worse. But...
...you certainly have a shot to break 4. Is it 20%? 30% I dunno, but it's realistic. I know you had some demons to overcome early in this training cycle, but stomach issues aside you've hit a groove over the last several weeks. And this was accomplished without any base building! Just imagine where you could be right now if that were done and you spent the first 2 months of training progressing rather than scuffling your way to complete workouts slower than you intended - requiring your body to work harder and possibly aiding in the stomach flare ups lately.
I get it, base building requires more time - time you may or may not be willing (nor able?) to devote. But before shoving all of your chips into the middle of the table keep that in mind. This race or a substitute in the near future doesn't need to be the last hurrah - it can be a stepping stone. Regardless of whether you hit the A goal or not you absolutely can do better with more easy miles on the front end.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Easy for you to say. This weather report is like spring break weather for a Cheesehead.
gruecd
Footballguy
Man, I'm trying to run faster than I've ever run in my life. Rain and wind are absolutely not gonna be helpful in that quest. But barring cancellation, I'm gonna give it a shot.
MAC_32
Footballguy
I don't remember if it was you that wrote it or if it got in my orbit elsewhere, but I think the bigger the person the more they're impacted by wind. I never thought about it until it got in my head, but it makes a ton of sense.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
gruecd
Footballguy
MAC_32
Footballguy
Yep, it's put my mind at ease on those especially windy days when I know my pace isn't what I intended when I set out - and caused me to not even think about doing interval workouts into the wind. Also led me to not sweat falling so far short of my 10K goal in Fall. Two and a half miles dead into a 20-30 mph wind is going to be too much for me to overcome.
The Iguana
Footballguy
You people are NOT going to get me down with all this negativity. WE ARE BMFS! Suck it up and let's run.
Zasada
Footballguy
@ChiefD, I agree with MAC here. I figured Houston was a one-shot thing. Before that race my legs/joints were screaming bloody murder and I had to take a double-hit of Naproxen the night before the race just to dull the pain a bit. As you know I didn't run the race the way I wanted but I hit my goal.
Now that I'm training using the Hanson's plan (as I think you are) two things are becoming clear:
First is that my legs are feeling much better than they did pre-Houston. Even though I'm running more weekly mileage. Before Houston I would run 3-4 times a week (some weeks I got a bit higher) with a 20+ miler in the mix. Now I'm running 5 times a week with much slower paces and shorter distances (even though the weekly total is higher). And I'm feeling much healthier. I might be singing a different tune in six weeks, though -- which brings me to my next point.
Second is that my understanding is that Hanson's is supposed to make you feel exhausted at taper time. Just look at @SteelCurtain. He's a BMF and feeling the fatigue right now. This is supposed to happen.
So don't give up yet. You're going to rock it. The wind will help you close out strong and the rain will keep you cool. Or we could find out again that weather forecasters don't know #### five days out.
gruecd
Footballguy
I'm with you brother.
I just keep visualizing Desi being a BAMF in the rain at Boston last year when all the ##### East Africans quit because they couldn't handle a little rain and wind.
I agree with @Juxtatarot....I like it when I feel like the odds are against me, too. Gives me something to rally around.
MAC_32
Footballguy
We have a couple of great ones here - one of their summary's is where I got the info I relayed yesterday. What makes them so great? They readily admit that they don't know what to expect. But they explain the why, summarize the range of potential outcomes, and project when they should know more. And as of last night it was still way too early to know.
Zasada
Footballguy
I'm no meteorologist but I think the front moving through the midwest later this week is originating from a low here forming in southern Alberta today. Supposed to bring some rain and (possibly) snow this afternoon and tonight.
I'll be sure to look at the sky and tell this front to go #### itself and make sure it moves through your area Friday instead of Saturday. :shakes fist:
I'll be sure to look at the sky and tell this front to go #### itself and make sure it moves through your area Friday instead of Saturday. :shakes fist:
ChiefD
Footballguy
Sorry fellas - the negativity falls on my shoulders. Just been thinking about this race ever since grue posted that early bird sign up last year, so it's just a bit of a letdown seeing the weather report.
My wife has also been a bit of a bear during this marathon cycle, so a lot of that frustration that I've internalized for the last 18 weeks is starting to boil over. Both here and at home. I'll be fine.
Thanks for listening. I'll hang up now.
bushdocda
Footballguy
The Iguana
Footballguy
It's all good, GB. I get it. It would be a bigger bummer for me if I had travel plans and such wrapped up around the race. I'm just stoked about seeing what I can do. I'm still hopeful that the weather isn't as bad as some of the reports. My phone app just says "morning showers" and the local news that I watch daily was saying "scattered showers" for Saturday. I've seen other reports that are much darker but we will see how it goes.
Sorry fellas - the negativity falls on my shoulders. Just been thinking about this race ever since grue posted that early bird sign up last year, so it's just a bit of a letdown seeing the weather report.
My wife has also been a bit of a bear during this marathon cycle, so a lot of that frustration that I've internalized for the last 18 weeks is starting to boil over. Both here and at home. I'll be fine.
Thanks for listening. I'll hang up now.
gianmarco
Footballguy
To get off-track from the weather this weekend and associated taper madness, I'm curious about @MAC_32's info from his run yesterday.
Cadence of 160? And that's higher than before? With a pace in the 7's? Yeesh.
I won't pretend to understand how that can/should be changed, but for you faster guys, is that something that could result in an increase in speed for someone like him that's already ridiculously fast? Is it even worth trying to work on when he's already run a 5K in 16
x?
It just seems like there's so much room for that to go up and it would be fascinating to see how that would change what he's capable of. Maybe @Juxtatarot or @SteelCurtain who have high cadences can give insight.
Cadence of 160? And that's higher than before? With a pace in the 7's? Yeesh.
I won't pretend to understand how that can/should be changed, but for you faster guys, is that something that could result in an increase in speed for someone like him that's already ridiculously fast? Is it even worth trying to work on when he's already run a 5K in 16
x?It just seems like there's so much room for that to go up and it would be fascinating to see how that would change what he's capable of. Maybe @Juxtatarot or @SteelCurtain who have high cadences can give insight.
MAC_32
Footballguy
...and that was after these three workouts - 5 mile bell curve, net 6:52 pace (peak - about 5:30 for a half mile). 6 miles w/a 5 mile progression starting around 7 flat building to 6:09, net w/cool down 6:54. Then 13 miles @ 7:04 pace, which was my longest run since October.
I actually intended yesterday's run to be slower, but I guess I wasn't tired.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Here's my very amateurish interpretation: We know you do lots of strengthening and leg workouts. And in order to achieve those paces with such a low cadence, your stride length has to be significant. That means you're able to and are generating some serious power with your legs and your strides....and that was after these three workouts - 5 mile bell curve, net 6:52 pace (peak - about 5:30 for a half mile). 6 miles w/a 5 mile progression starting around 7 flat building to 6:09, net w/cool down 6:54. Then 13 miles @ 7:04 pace, which was my longest run since October.
I actually intended yesterday's run to be slower, but I guess I wasn't tired.
If you were able to get your cadence up to even 170 with that kind of power without having to increase your effort (and possibly even lower it), you could potentially see a HUGE boost in your performance.
For most of us, when we race, we are increasing our stride length and that takes a lot of effort. It takes more effort to do that than it does to increase cadence. If you've already got that part covered, man.....
pbm107
Footballguy
I think this article makes sense in regards to cadence:To get off-track from the weather this weekend and associated taper madness, I'm curious about @MAC_32's info from his run yesterday.
Cadence of 160? And that's higher than before? With a pace in the 7's? Yeesh.
I won't pretend to understand how that can/should be changed, but for you faster guys, is that something that could result in an increase in speed for someone like him that's already ridiculously fast? Is it even worth trying to work on when he's already run a 5K in 16
It just seems like there's so much room for that to go up and it would be fascinating to see how that would change what he's capable of. Maybe @Juxtatarot or @SteelCurtain who have high cadences can give insight.
"But there’s a very big difference between saying “Some runners might benefit from increasing their cadence” and “All runners, regardless of what speed they’re running at, should take at least 180 steps per minute.”
That acknowledgment of individual variability is probably the most important message to emerge from Burns’s data, and should serve as a caution against trying to impose general rules on your running form. Burns’s grand overall model tried to predict each runner’s cadence based on every piece of data available—speed, height, weight, age, experience, and so on. Altogether, those factors were able to explain about 50 percent of the cadence variation between runners. The rest, in this study at least, was unmeasurable. “That was intellectually and romantically satisfying,” Burns says. “We can explain half with science, but the other half is unique to you.”"
I looked at my data going back a couple of years and I have only had 5 runs in which my cadence was over 180, all shorter races.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Yep....that's what I remember too. And I think if his cadence was even in the 168-170 range, then yeah, maybe try bumping it up a little but we wouldn't be expecting any huge changes.
But 160 is really low. Most of your runs are in the 166-172 range. So yours clearly works for you.
Mac is already so stinking fast that it would be hard to say he HAS to improve that, but it would be fascinating to see what would happen if he tried it to see how it felt and what would happen.
jb1020
Footballguy
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
@MAC_32 having a lower cadence isn't surprising at all to me. He's a power runner (activating his glutes and stuff!) so he's going to propel himself with each step more than most of us.
For what it's worth, I only have cadence data for about a year but looking at that a year ago and from going by memory from I used to count, my cadence for a given pace has gotten lower. My guess is it is from my heel/Achilles being better and having a bit more push.
One article that I think @gianmarco posted a link to had an expert mention that he used cadence to determine how fatigued he was. Higher numbers let him know we wasn't pushing off with strength enough. I found that interesting.
For what it's worth, I only have cadence data for about a year but looking at that a year ago and from going by memory from I used to count, my cadence for a given pace has gotten lower. My guess is it is from my heel/Achilles being better and having a bit more push.
One article that I think @gianmarco posted a link to had an expert mention that he used cadence to determine how fatigued he was. Higher numbers let him know we wasn't pushing off with strength enough. I found that interesting.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
MAC_32
Footballguy
I've also been running with more weight than usual. My increasing strength goal has been successful, but my losing weight goal has not. The number on the scale is the same, but I'm down two belt loops since christmas and one since I cleaned up the diet (some) two months ago. So at least I'm shifting some of that bad weight to good weight. But if I start shedding some of it then science says I should get faster...and if I'm lighter then theoretically I should be able to take another step in speeding up the cadence. That's been in the back of my mind, but I first need to drop from 190 back to 180.
MAC_32
Footballguy
I think your power assessment is correct, but I'm being open minded to technique changes because of my long distance speed. I think there's an opportunity there. I'll probably be a better short distance runner than long until muscle mass composition starts falling victim to age, but if I'm able to do a sub 5 mile and 5K in peak condition at 5:20 pace then I think I should be able to do a 10K faster than 5:55 and a half 6:20.
Zasada
Footballguy
There aren't many upsides to starting this hiking/running thing so late in life. But one is that I've been on Strava right from the beginning. So I'm able to go back and look at my very first run and make observations. I remember it. I ran way too fast for a beginner and could only go 1.5km before I had to walk the rest. I was gassed.
But my cadence was ~165 for that 1.5km stretch.
The intent of this post was to see when I increased my cadence, but it basically stayed in the 160s (creeping-up) until I got my Garmin Fenix 5+ watch and then on Strava I started seeing ~175.
So I wanted to get all "science-y" only to find out that measuring cadence with my phone seemed to yield a different result than with my watch.
I might need to try a run where I use both and see if they yield the same results.
Do I have a point? Nope. Move along, nothing to see here.
But my cadence was ~165 for that 1.5km stretch.
The intent of this post was to see when I increased my cadence, but it basically stayed in the 160s (creeping-up) until I got my Garmin Fenix 5+ watch and then on Strava I started seeing ~175.
So I wanted to get all "science-y" only to find out that measuring cadence with my phone seemed to yield a different result than with my watch.
I might need to try a run where I use both and see if they yield the same results.
Do I have a point? Nope. Move along, nothing to see here.
The Iguana
Footballguy
Hey... just saw the email that I got my bib number for Saturday... I'm #2846. And I'll be lining up in Corral A.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Just nuts.
Just ran an easy warmup mile before my hills. Had to even take a call and barely thinking about it other than fast cadence.
8:55 and half of it uphill. HR of 137. That's a full minute faster than normal warmup for me and felt even easier.
I don't know what it's going to do for my top end running but no question this will help for my distance stuff. I can't wait for my tempo run on Thursday to see what happens.
Just ran an easy warmup mile before my hills. Had to even take a call and barely thinking about it other than fast cadence.
8:55 and half of it uphill. HR of 137. That's a full minute faster than normal warmup for me and felt even easier.
I don't know what it's going to do for my top end running but no question this will help for my distance stuff. I can't wait for my tempo run on Thursday to see what happens.
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